Legislature(2023 - 2024)BUTROVICH 205

03/13/2023 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY

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01:31:54 PM Start
01:32:33 PM SB61
02:18:51 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ SB 61 US PRESIDENT ELECT. POPULAR VOTE COMPACT TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
-- Invited & Public Testimony --
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
        SB  61-US PRESIDENT ELECT. POPULAR VOTE COMPACT                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:32:33 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR CLAMAN  announced the consideration  of SENATE BILL  NO. 61                                                               
"An Act relating to an  interstate compact to elect the President                                                               
and  Vice-President  of the  United  States  by national  popular                                                               
vote; and  relating to the  selection of electors  for candidates                                                               
for President and Vice-President of  the United States and to the                                                               
duties of those electors."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:32:57 PM                                                                                                                    
Senator Bill Wielechowski, District  K, Alaska State Legislature,                                                               
Juneau,  Alaska,  sponsor  of  SB  61,  paraphrased  the  sponsor                                                               
statement.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Senate  Bill  61  will  give   every  Alaskan  voter  a                                                                    
     meaningful vote  in presidential elections  by entering                                                                    
     the National  Popular Vote agreement with  other states                                                                    
     to  guarantee  the  presidency  to  the  candidate  who                                                                    
     receives the most votes nationwide.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     SB 61  would have Alaska  join the 15 other  states and                                                                    
     the District  of Columbia that have  already joined the                                                                    
     agreement.  Together these  states  have 195  electoral                                                                    
     votes.  Once   states  totaling   a  majority   of  the                                                                    
     Electoral  College  (currently   270  votes)  join  the                                                                    
     agreement,  these  states  will begin  to  award  their                                                                    
     electoral  votes   to  the  presidential   ticket  that                                                                    
     receives   the  most   votes  nationwide.   Until  this                                                                    
     threshold is reached, Alaska  will continue to allocate                                                                    
     its  electoral votes  to the  winner  of the  statewide                                                                    
     vote.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Under  the current  system  presidential candidates  do                                                                    
     little to campaign  for Alaskan votes, and  they do not                                                                    
     need to  develop positions on    or even learn  about                                                                      
     issues  unique  to  Alaska.  The   last  time  a  major                                                                    
     presidential candidate  came to Alaska to  campaign for                                                                    
     general election votes was John F. Kennedy in 1960.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     It  is  not only  Alaskan  voters  who are  ignored  in                                                                    
     presidential   elections        almost    all   serious                                                                    
     campaigning  happens  in  only 12  states.  The  entire                                                                    
     Pacific Coast  includes non-competitive  states meaning                                                                    
     presidential   candidates  do   not  have   to  address                                                                    
     concerns  that  Alaska  shares with  other  West  Coast                                                                    
     states  like Pacific  fisheries  management. Under  the                                                                    
     National  Popular   Vote  system,   savvy  presidential                                                                    
     campaigns  will fight  for every  persuadable vote,  no                                                                    
     matter  where they  are located,  and develop  messages                                                                    
     addressing concerns of all regions.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     The National  Popular Vote agreement will  not give any                                                                    
     political  party an  advantage.  An  analysis by  well-                                                                    
     known  statistician  Nate  Silver found  that  "there's                                                                    
     almost  no  correlation  between which  party  has  the                                                                    
     Electoral College  advantage in one election  and which                                                                    
     has it four years later."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Passing SB 61 will help  ensure that all American votes                                                                    
     truly are  equal, and that  Alaskans' concerns  must be                                                                    
     taken seriously by presidential candidates.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:36:40 PM                                                                                                                    
DAVID DUNSMORE, Staff, Senator Bill Wielechowski, Alaska State                                                                  
Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, provided the sectional analysis for                                                                
SB 61 on behalf of the sponsor.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section  1  is  a conforming  section  that  references                                                                  
     Section 2.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section  2 establishes  that the  statute for  deciding                                                                  
     tied elections  do not apply the  presidential electors                                                                    
     when  the  National  Popular  Vote  provisions  are  in                                                                    
     effect.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Section  3  is  a conforming  section  that  references                                                                  
     Section 4.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section  4  establishes  that  Alaska's  ranked  choice                                                                  
     voting system will be used  for calculating the popular                                                                    
     vote totals.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Section  5  is  a conforming  section  that  references                                                                  
     Section 6.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section 6  establishes that, when the  National Popular                                                                  
     Vote  provisions are  in effect,  Alaska's presidential                                                                    
       electors shall be awarded the winner of the nation-                                                                      
     wide popular vote.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Section  7  is  a conforming  section  that  references                                                                  
     Section 8.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section  8 requires  that,  when  the National  Popular                                                                  
     vote  provisions  are  in  effect,  electors  shall  be                                                                    
     required  to  vote  for   the  presidential  and  vice-                                                                    
     presidential   candidates  who   won  the   nation-wide                                                                    
     popular vote.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Section  9 enacts  the Agreement  Among  the States  to                                                                  
     Elect the President by National Popular Vote.                                                                              
          • New AS 15.30.104 is the language of the                                                                             
             Agreement:                                                                                                         
                 Article I states that any state and the                                                                        
                  District  of   Columbia   may   join   the                                                                    
                  agreement.                                                                                                    
                 Article II requires each state to conduct                                                                      
                  a  statewide  popular  vote  election  for                                                                    
                 president and vice-president.                                                                                  
                 Article III adopts procedures for awarding                                                                     
                  electors to the winner  of the nation-wide                                                                    
                  popular vote.                                                                                                 
                 Article IV states that the Agreement takes                                                                     
                  effect  when   states   representing   the                                                                    
                  majority  of  the  electoral   votes  have                                                                    
                  joined the Agreement. It  also establishes                                                                    
                  procedures  for   states   to  leave   the                                                                    
                  Agreement.                                                                                                    
                 Article V defines terms used in the                                                                            
                  Agreement.                                                                                                    
          • New AS 15.30.106 establishes that the director                                                                      
             of the Division of Election is considered the                                                                      
              chief election official" for purposes of the                                                                      
             Agreement.                                                                                                         
          • New AS 15.30.108 establishes that when the                                                                          
             agreement is in effect, it shall take                                                                              
             precedence over any conflicting language in                                                                        
             statute or regulation                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:39:53 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  KIEHL shared  that he  lacked  a solid  position on  the                                                               
issue  of  a  national  popular  vote.  He  understood  that  the                                                               
National Popular  Vote Interstate Compact served  as an equalizer                                                               
for states during  election campaigns. He classified  Alaska as a                                                               
rural state but noted that  approximately 80 percent of Americans                                                               
live in  urban areas.  He assumed that  Americans in  rural areas                                                               
would be primary targets for presidential campaigns.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI noted  the concern  that large  cities like                                                               
New York or  Los Angeles would control a  nationwide popular vote                                                               
for president.  Under the National Popular  Vote agreement, every                                                               
vote would be  equal throughout the entire United  States. A vote                                                               
cast in a city would be equal to  a vote cast in a small town. He                                                               
spoke to the argument that  Americans would turn the presidential                                                               
election results over to Los  Angeles. He argued that Los Angeles                                                               
does  not   control  the  outcome   of  statewide   elections  in                                                               
California,  evidenced   by  multiple   gubernatorial  candidates                                                               
elected without winning Los Angeles.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI opined  that  the  misconception about  big                                                               
cities stems from the myth that  big cities account for a greater                                                               
fraction of  the United States  population. He clarified  that 85                                                               
percent  of the  United  States population  lives in  communities                                                               
with fewer than 365 thousand people.  He spoke about the issue of                                                               
the 13  small states  with 3  or fewer  electoral votes  that are                                                               
disadvantaged during  the current  process of  awarding electoral                                                               
votes. He continued to explain  that closely divided battleground                                                               
states are typically evenly split.  He noted frequent comparisons                                                               
between  small  Republican  states  like Alaska  and  Wyoming  to                                                               
Hawaii and New Hampshire, which typically vote Democrat.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI furthered that  the smaller states are often                                                               
ignored  because  they  are   not  closely  divided  battleground                                                               
states.  He  informed  the  committee  that  the  12  small  non-                                                               
battleground  states have  approximately the  same population  as                                                               
the closely  divided battleground  state of  Ohio. He  added that                                                               
the 12  small states  have 40 electoral  votes, more  than double                                                               
Ohio's 18 electoral votes. He noted  that Ohio received 73 of the                                                               
253 post-convention  campaign events in  2012, while the  12 non-                                                               
battleground  states received  none.  He added  that the  current                                                               
state by state, winner-takes-all system  shifts power from voters                                                               
in the  small and medium sized  states to voters in  a handful of                                                               
big, closely divided battleground  states. The legislation allows                                                               
for equalization of every vote, as intended by the Constitution.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:44:32 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR KIEHL commented that the  number of campaign visits was a                                                               
proxy  for  attention  to  issues. He  recalled  that  Maine  has                                                               
battleground  Electoral College  votes.  He  asked about  Maine's                                                               
proportion of campaign visits.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  responded that Maine received  three visits                                                               
in 2016  and two visits in  2020, while Alaska received  none. He                                                               
acknowledged  that  Maine   received  attention,  as  politically                                                               
divided states do.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CLAMAN  queried  the  number  of  states  who  passed  the                                                               
National Popular Vote provision.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  WIELECHOWSKI  replied  that   270  electoral  votes  are                                                               
required for the provision to  pass. He stated that the provision                                                               
has 195 electoral votes from  legislation currently enacted in 15                                                               
states.  He listed  the states:  Delaware, Hawaii,  Rhode Island,                                                               
Vermont,  Colorado,  Connecticut,  Maryland,  Massachusetts,  New                                                               
Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon,  Washington, California, Illinois and                                                               
New York.  He cited instances  where one legislative  body passed                                                               
similar legislation,  but the  other did not.  He added  that the                                                               
compact was endorsed by the Arizona House of Representatives.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:47:13 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR CLAMAN moved to invited testimony.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:48:38 PM                                                                                                                    
DR.  JOHN KOZA,  Chairman, National  Popular Vote;  Author, Every                                                               
Vote Equal, Los Altos, California,  informed the committee of the                                                               
shortcomings  in the  current presidential  election system.  The                                                               
shortcomings  stem from  the winner-take-all  laws, which  Alaska                                                               
and 48 other states passed.  The states award all electoral votes                                                               
to the candidate  receiving the most popular votes  in the state.                                                               
The effect  of the winner-take-all  laws is that some  states are                                                               
ignored  during the  presidential  election  campaign. He  stated                                                               
that  a presidential  candidate will  not visit  a state  that is                                                               
united in its party voting record.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
DR. KOZA  explained that presidential  campaigns were  limited to                                                               
12  battleground states  comprising approximately  30 percent  of                                                               
the country's  population. He pointed  out that all of  the small                                                               
states  were excluded  with the  exception of  New Hampshire.  He                                                               
added that one congressional district  in Maine received campaign                                                               
attention. He added  that nearly all western  states are excluded                                                               
from campaigning. He noted that  most of the heartland, southern,                                                               
rural, and  northeastern states are  ignored in  the presidential                                                               
campaign.  The exclusion  of states  remains the  largest problem                                                               
with the current system.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DR.  KOZA continued  that Alaska  has two  extra electoral  votes                                                               
because of the state's two  senators. He countered that the eight                                                               
smallest states with three electoral  votes, like Alaska received                                                               
one  general election  campaign  visit. He  added that  Wisconsin                                                               
received 58 visits over the  four election time period. Wisconsin                                                               
has ten electoral votes. He  pointed out that the winner-take-all                                                               
rule led to election results hinging  on a few states. The result                                                               
of  the  process  is unnecessary  controversy  and  post-election                                                               
disputes.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:54:02 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR CLAMAN opened public testimony on SB 61.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:54:17 PM                                                                                                                    
KARLA  HART,  representing  self, Juneau,  Alaska,  testified  in                                                               
support of  the SB 61.  She stated that she  is not an  expert on                                                               
the  issue but  testifies  as  an American  who  believes the  US                                                               
should have one-person-one-vote.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:54:54 PM                                                                                                                    
SANTA CLAUS, representing self,  North Pole, Alaska, testified in                                                               
support  of  SB  61.  He   endorsed  the  National  Popular  Vote                                                               
Interstate Compact.  The compact  ensures that the  candidate for                                                               
president who receives the most  popular votes wins the election.                                                               
He noted  that the Electoral  College electors would not  be able                                                               
to override the popular vote under the interstate compact.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:57:43 PM                                                                                                                    
JOHN CRAWFORD,  representing self, Grant, Michigan,  testified in                                                               
opposition  to  SB 61.  He  remarked  that  the bill  before  the                                                               
committee impacts  Michigan too. He  stated that he is  a retired                                                               
citizen who has focused on  the issue for approximately 12 years.                                                               
He opined  that the  issue of  electing the  president is  one of                                                               
intentional assignment. He opined  that the assignment rests with                                                               
the  states  utilizing  electors.  He revealed  that  the  states                                                               
counterbalanced the federal government.  He opined that the state                                                               
legislatures should think like sovereign states.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
2:00:27 PM                                                                                                                    
TRENT  ENGLAND, Executive  Director,  Save  Our States,  Oklahoma                                                               
City,  testified in  opposition to  SB 61.  He opposes  the issue                                                               
because the initial intent of  the country's founders was for the                                                               
state to elect  the president by use of electors.  He stated that                                                               
the  system was  well-designed for  federal elections.  He opined                                                               
that the  Electoral College  balances political  power throughout                                                               
the country.  He stated that  the compact was poorly  drafted and                                                               
illegal. He  pointed out  the attempt to  use rank  choice voting                                                               
adjusted totals as  part of the national  election result totals.                                                               
He  argued  that  the   proposed  legislation  violates  Alaska's                                                               
constitution,  which  prevents  anyone from  voting  in  Alaska's                                                               
elections  after conviction  for  serious crimes.  He added  that                                                               
other states allow  all felons to vote. He pointed  out that some                                                               
states  allow felons  to  vote from  prison.  Under the  proposed                                                               
legislation, the prisoners  from other states would  be voting in                                                               
Alaska's  election for  presidential electors.  He stressed  that                                                               
the  compact violates  the Alaska  constitution compact  laws and                                                               
the Electoral College clauses.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:03:03 PM                                                                                                                    
TARA ROSS,  representing self, Texas, testified  in opposition to                                                               
SB  61.  She stated  that  the  proposed legislation  effectively                                                               
eliminates  the Electoral  College. She  opined that  the current                                                               
election process  combines federalist and  democratic principles.                                                               
She pointed  out that the compact  is easy to join  and unjoin as                                                               
opposed  to a  constitutional  amendment, which  would provide  a                                                               
permanent solution.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
2:05:36 PM                                                                                                                    
SEAN   PARNELL,  Member,   People   for  Opportunity,   Virginia,                                                               
testified in  opposition to SB  61. He  stated a weakness  in the                                                               
compact existed in  the absence of a national vote  tally used to                                                               
determine the  winner under  the compact.  He echoed  that ranked                                                               
choice  voting   creates  additional  issues  for   the  proposed                                                               
compact. He anticipated  a situation where the  compact would not                                                               
deliver a clear  and conclusive winner because  of the difficulty                                                               
in  calculating  all votes  across  all  states. He  stated  that                                                               
better alternatives exist for the national popular vote issue.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
2:08:09 PM                                                                                                                    
JASPER   HENDRICKS,   Democrats   for  the   Electoral   College,                                                               
Nashville, Tennessee testified in opposition  to SB 61. He shared                                                               
that he served as a presidential  elector in Virginia in 2016. He                                                               
understood concerns  about the presidential election  process. He                                                               
opined  that  the solution  was  not  the National  Popular  Vote                                                               
Interstate Compact.  He opined that the  compact would complicate                                                               
current  issues while  creating new  ones. He  remarked that  the                                                               
compact  attempts  to  circumvent  the  constitutional  amendment                                                               
process. He opined that the  Democratic Party was stronger with a                                                               
diverse coalition across the entire nation.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
2:09:56 PM                                                                                                                    
VIKKI JO  KENNEDY, representing  self, Juneau,  Alaska, testified                                                               
in support of SB 61. She  reported that she represents a group of                                                               
fed-up  grannies. She  opined that  elections are  confusing. She                                                               
understood that the value of  the Electoral College was outdated.                                                               
She  reported losing  friends over  her  choices of  presidential                                                               
candidates. She stated support for ranked choice voting.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
2:12:47 PM                                                                                                                    
ALEX KOPLIN,  League of  Women Voters  of Alaska,  Homer, Alaska,                                                               
testified in support of SB 61.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CLAMAN  stated that  the committee  received a  letter from                                                               
Mr. Koplin.  He asked if there  were other remarks to  add to the                                                               
letter of support.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. KOPLIN commented  on the prior testimony.  He appreciated the                                                               
conversation  about  the  national   compact  and  the  Electoral                                                               
College.  He spoke  about younger  voters who  are encouraged  to                                                               
vote when in  reality, a vote in the  presidential election holds                                                               
less  value than  a  vote  in other  races.  He  opined that  the                                                               
Electoral  College process  was  antiquated. He  stated that  the                                                               
president  of the  United  States should  be  elected by  popular                                                               
vote.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
2:15:43 PM                                                                                                                    
CHRISTOPHER PEARSON, National  Popular Vote, Burlington, Vermont,                                                               
testified  in support  of SB  61. He  pointed out  that he  was a                                                               
former  state senator  and representative  in Vermont.  He opined                                                               
that  the   national  popular  vote  option   provides  a  simple                                                               
solution.  He argued  that ranked  choice  voting was  compatible                                                               
with  the national  popular vote.  He argued  that the  Electoral                                                               
Count  Act of  2022  reaffirmed that  federal  law requires  each                                                               
state to issue  an official national popular vote  count six days                                                               
before  the Electoral  College meets.  The  federal law  requires                                                               
states to  transmit the Certificates of  Ascertainment for public                                                               
review. The  excuses from prior  testifiers do not measure  up to                                                               
scrutiny.  He added  that  voter turnout  was  depressed in  non-                                                               
battleground states. He  opined that SB 61 would  provide a boost                                                               
to democracy.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
2:18:22 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR CLAMAN closed public testimony on SB 61 and announced he                                                                  
would hold the bill in committee.                                                                                               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
SB 61 Version B 2.7.2023.PDF SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SJUD 4/17/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Sponsor Statement version B 2.1.2023.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SJUD 4/17/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Sectional Analysis version B 2.1.2023.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SJUD 4/17/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Research - NPV One-Pager 1.3.2022.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SJUD 4/17/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Supporting Document - Letters Received as of 3.13.2023.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SJUD 4/17/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Supporting Testimony - Received as of 3.13.2023.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Opposing Testimony - Received as of 3.13.2023.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61
SB 61 Fiscal Note OOG-DOE 3.10.2023.pdf SJUD 3/13/2023 1:30:00 PM
SJUD 4/17/2023 1:30:00 PM
SB 61