Legislature(2005 - 2006)BUTROVICH 205

05/06/2005 08:30 AM JUDICIARY

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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Recessed to a Call of the Chair --
Heard & Held
Moved SCS CSSHB 53(JUD) Out of Committee
Moved CSHB 268(JUD) Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                 SB 165-CARD ROOMS & OPERATIONS                                                                             
8:58:38 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR RALPH SEEKINS announced SB 165 to be up for consideration.                                                                
MR.   CHIP   WAGONER,   executive   director,   Alaska   Catholic                                                               
Conference, testified  in opposition. He said  the Roman Catholic                                                               
Church  does not  take  the position  that  gambling is  immoral.                                                               
Games  of chance  become morally  unacceptable when  they deprive                                                               
someone the  ability to  provide for  themselves and  others. The                                                               
games are already legal as  indicated in the Anchorage Daily News                                                               
article dated May 4, 2005. People can gamble in their homes.                                                                    
9:00:36 AM                                                                                                                    
When  money and  commercial  gaming interests  are  added to  the                                                               
equation it causes  the gambling addition to become.  SB 165 will                                                               
not replace  illegal operations, it  will just add to  the crime.                                                               
The Alaska Catholic  Conference opposes SB 165  because they feel                                                               
it  will only  hurt people  and the  state will  not provide  the                                                               
necessary resources to fund  addiction reparation. Child neglect,                                                               
embezzlement, and suicide rates will rise.                                                                                      
Pathological gambling is a psychiatric  disorder. A University of                                                               
Chicago  study found  that the  presence of  a gambling  facility                                                               
within   50  miles   doubles  the   prevalence  of   problem  and                                                               
pathological  gambling.  The  National Research  Council  of  the                                                               
National  Academy of  Sciences found  that some  of the  greatest                                                               
increases  in the  number of  problem  and pathological  gamblers                                                               
came over periods of expanded gambling opportunities.                                                                           
9:02:27 AM                                                                                                                    
MR. WAGONER continued  the effects of gambling are a  mess as the                                                               
State of  Washington has found.  He quoted from the  Seattle Post                                                               
Intelligencer: "As  legalized gambling  continues its  swift rise                                                               
in Washington, the quiet parallel  growth of problem gambling has                                                               
marched   right   along   with    it,   often   with   disastrous                                                               
consequences." Problem gambling is  an emotional disorder that is                                                               
under the  radar screen because  it is  not as visible  as needle                                                               
marks  and public  intoxication.  According to  the Seattle  Post                                                               
Intelligencer, thousands of lives  in Washington have been ruined                                                               
due to  gambling. There is increased  indebtedness, bankruptcies,                                                               
crime, divorce, and suicide. The  troubles have cost the State of                                                               
Washington millions of dollars a year.                                                                                          
9:04:18 AM                                                                                                                    
Experts and gamblers themselves  say gambling addictions are more                                                               
difficult to spot  than alcoholism or drug addiction,  and can be                                                               
more difficult to quit. The  National Council on Problem Gambling                                                               
is not for  or against gambling; their purpose is  to help people                                                               
who  have   gambling  addictions.  However  they   recognize  the                                                               
societal costs are very high.                                                                                                   
Bankruptcy lawyers in  Seattle are seeing more  filings caused by                                                               
gambling  troubles. There  has been  a definite  increase in  the                                                               
last 10 years. King County  deputies regularly see the effects of                                                               
gambling  in  the  prosecution of  domestic  violence  and  child                                                               
neglect cases.                                                                                                                  
9:06:10 AM                                                                                                                    
One  reason funding  for gambling  addiction is  hard is  because                                                               
gambling is a  hidden disease. The State of Oregon  has funded 27                                                               
treatment clinics  and hired more  than 50 counselors.  More than                                                               
10,000 people  have entered their state  treatment programs since                                                               
1995, which has cost the state  4.5 million dollars. The State of                                                               
Alaska  does  not  have a  single  gambling  addiction  certified                                                               
counselor. The  economic benefits  of SB 165  will not  even come                                                               
close to  taking care  of the negative  costs associated  with SB
165. The  National Gambling Impact  Study Commission  report, the                                                               
largest most comprehensive study  performed in the United States,                                                               
determined problem gamblers  cost society $715 dollars  each on a                                                               
yearly basis and pathological gamblers cost society $1,200 each.                                                                
9:08:02 AM                                                                                                                    
For  those  reasons  the Alaska  Catholic  Conference  urges  the                                                               
committee to  not pass SB  165. It  only hurts people  and Alaska                                                               
cannot afford it.                                                                                                               
9:08:52 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  HOLLIS   FRENCH  commented   his  research   found  that                                                               
electronic  gaming machines  contribute to  problem gambling.  He                                                               
asked Mr.  Wagoner whether he  had specific research  focusing on                                                               
poker playing.                                                                                                                  
MR.  WAGONER agreed  electronic  gaming machines  are called  the                                                               
crack cocaine  of gambling. The  faster the game the  more likely                                                               
it will cause addiction. Everything  that has an immediate payoff                                                               
has addiction potential.  He urged the committee  to have someone                                                               
who deals with gambling disorders  testify on SB 165. However, it                                                               
is known that when gambling  is increased, the disorders are also                                                               
9:12:00 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR FRENCH asked Mr. Wagoner  whether he would close pull-tab                                                               
shops, given the chance.                                                                                                        
MR. WAGONER asserted he would.  People sit by themselves in pull-                                                               
tab parlors hoping for the big  break. Many are desperate to win.                                                               
It has  a sad effect on  families and kids. Children  are left in                                                               
the parking  lot for hours  while their parents  gamble. Gambling                                                               
games are designed to separate people from their money.                                                                         
9:14:31 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR JOHN  COWDERY asserted people  are currently  gambling in                                                               
illegal establishments.                                                                                                         
9:17:43 AM                                                                                                                    
MR.  WAGONER said  the Roman  Catholic  Church does  not look  at                                                               
gambling as  sinful. It  is the effects  that are  concerning. SB
165 will open  the door with commercial gaming and  there will be                                                               
more pressure on the Legislature to expand it.                                                                                  
9:20:32 AM                                                                                                                    
MS. SUSAN  BURKE, attorney retained  by Perry Green to  look into                                                               
the  implications of  SB  165  as it  relates  to Indian  gaming,                                                               
offered her comments. She looked  at two questions primarily. The                                                               
first was  whether enactment  of SB  165 would  open the  door to                                                               
casino-type class 3 gaming. Her  research shows it would not. The                                                               
second question  was whether the  enactment of SB 165  would open                                                               
the door  to additional kinds  of class  2 gaming beyond  what is                                                               
already authorized under Alaska law.  Her research shows it would                                                               
CHAIR  SEEKINS   interrupted  to   say  from  a   strictly  legal                                                               
standpoint that would be a logical conclusion.                                                                                  
MS. BURKE  said her main point  is Indian tribes today  under the                                                               
Indian   Gaming  Act,   if  they   fulfill  all   of  the   other                                                               
requirements, could  engage in poker,  cribbage, bridge,  and pan                                                               
card rooms today  under existing law because Alaska  law does not                                                               
explicitly  prohibit non-banking  card games  in any  location in                                                               
the state.  Social card games  in homes are not  prohibited under                                                               
Alaska law;  therefore they would be  the kind of card  game that                                                               
Indian  tribes could  engage in.  There are  a number  of federal                                                               
laws and  regulations an Indian  tribe would have to  comply with                                                               
in order  to get a license.  Equally important, they could  do so                                                               
only on Indian lands the particular tribe has jurisdiction over.                                                                
9:24:17 AM                                                                                                                    
MS.  BURKE  added  Native  claims   settlement  lands  would  not                                                               
qualify. The definition  of "Indian lands" under  the federal act                                                               
is  "lands within  the  limits  of a  reservation"  and the  only                                                               
reservation in Alaska  is Metlakatla. The other  category is "any                                                               
lands the  title to which is  either held in trust  by the United                                                               
States for the benefit of an  Indian tribe or individual, or held                                                               
by an  Indian tribe or  individual subject to restriction  by the                                                               
United States against alienation or sale."                                                                                      
CHAIR SEEKINS asked whether someone  could simply plead sovereign                                                               
immunity and thereby protect the land from alienation.                                                                          
MS. BURKE  responded alienation is  a voluntary thing  and unless                                                               
the federal government has imposed  restrictions on the voluntary                                                               
act, it wouldn't qualify as Indian lands.                                                                                       
9:26:26 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS mentioned a California  case where one Indian tribe                                                               
bought land  and claimed  it as official  Indian land  where they                                                               
could start  a casino.  The State of  California contested  it on                                                               
the  grounds that  the land  was once  under the  jurisdiction of                                                               
California.  Unless the  state acts  affirmatively to  remove the                                                               
jurisdiction, it remains under the jurisdiction of the state.                                                                   
SENATOR FRENCH asked the  relationship between Native corporation                                                               
land and Native corporation shares, which are not alienable.                                                                    
MS. BURKE  replied a person  couldn't conduct a  gaming operation                                                               
on a share of stock.                                                                                                            
CHAIR  SEEKINS answered  Native  corporation land  is not  Indian                                                               
land. It  is subject  to alienation  and can  be sold  or traded.                                                               
Native corporations themselves do not have sovereign immunity.                                                                  
9:29:08 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR GENE THERRIAULT said there  was a constant push to expand                                                               
sovereign immunity on Native lands.  The Rural Justice Commission                                                               
is  being steered  toward a  request to  transfer all  the Native                                                               
corporate land into Indian land.                                                                                                
MS. BURKE  said regardless  of where the  Indian lands  laws are,                                                               
Alaska law  is such that  Indian tribes could  implement anything                                                               
in SB 165  today. The tribes would have  to exercise governmental                                                               
powers on  the land itself  and Metlakatla  seems to be  the only                                                               
place where that happens.                                                                                                       
CHAIR  SEEKINS said  he  would disagree  if  her conclusion  were                                                               
tribes in  Alaska today  could operate class  2 gaming  without a                                                               
permit from the state.                                                                                                          
MS. BURKE agreed they would have  to go through the Indian Gaming                                                               
Act,  as well  as  get  a permit  and  follow certain  regulatory                                                               
9:32:26 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  THERRIAULT  speculated  the  Native  organizations  have                                                               
determined  there is  either not  a lot  of money  in the  gaming                                                               
operation  or the  lack of  authorized land  is why  they haven't                                                               
pursued it.                                                                                                                     
CHAIR SEEKINS referred  to two applications that  were denied and                                                               
a third in  Klawock that was granted an  Indian Gaming Regulatory                                                               
Act (IGRA)  permit. It  is not outside  the realm  of possibility                                                               
that IGRA will grant permits.                                                                                                   
MS.  BURKE  emphasized action  on  SB  165  will not  avoid  IGRA                                                               
issuing permits  and the results  that occur forthwith.  The only                                                               
way the  Legislature could  stop Indian gaming  is to  repeal the                                                               
exemption in Alaska law for social gaming in the home.                                                                          
9:34:52 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS said  the more money that might be  made from state                                                               
authorized gambling; the more motivated  the tribes may be to get                                                               
MS. BURKE said  proponents of SB 165 must believe  there is money                                                               
in the  operation of card  rooms otherwise they wouldn't  want to                                                               
do it. She does  not know why Indian tribes have  not come to the                                                               
same conclusion.                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS agreed the motivator is money and not recreation.                                                                 
MS. BURKE confirmed that is absolutely correct.                                                                                 
SENATOR HUGGINS said  it might be like moving  the capitol, which                                                               
was on the back burner until recently.                                                                                          
MS. BURKE said virtually by introducing  SB 165 the cat is out of                                                               
the bag.                                                                                                                        
9:36:56 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS said  the more  money that  is involved,  the more                                                               
temptation for groups  to persuade the gaming  commission and the                                                               
federal courts  that they  are Indian tribes  for the  purpose of                                                               
IGRA  and that  there  are parcels  of land  in  Alaska that  are                                                               
Indian lands as defined by IGRA.                                                                                                
MS. BURKE emphasized whether SB  165 passes or not, Indian tribes                                                               
could still enter the gaming business under Alaska law.                                                                         
CHAIR  SEEKINS agreed  so long  as  they comply  with state  law,                                                               
which means no one takes a rake.                                                                                                
MS. BURKE disagreed.  She said the only state law  limits have to                                                               
do with maximum wagers, maximum pots, and hours of operation.                                                                   
SENATOR  THERRIAULT speculated  there isn't  enough money  in the                                                               
game rooms to gain the interest of Indian tribes.                                                                               
9:39:14 AM                                                                                                                    
MS.  BURKE disagreed.  She asserted  somebody  must see  it as  a                                                               
viable economic advantage  else they would not be  pushing SB 165                                                               
SENATOR FRENCH commented location would be difficult.                                                                           
CHAIR SEEKINS  wondered the  motivation for  the current  push to                                                               
transfer corporate lands into Indian lands.                                                                                     
SENATOR  COWDERY agreed  location would  be a  deterrent for  the                                                               
tribes. He suggested a local  option where communities could vote                                                               
SB 165 out.                                                                                                                     
9:42:32 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS stated  for  the  record he  is  not  in favor  of                                                               
gambling  and has  no intent  to vote  for SB  165 on  the Senate                                                               
9:44:08 AM                                                                                                                    
MR. RYAN  MAKINSTER, staff  to Senator  John Cowdery,  offered to                                                               
answer questions.                                                                                                               
CHAIR SEEKINS suggested a limit to five-dollar wager.                                                                           
SENATOR  COWDERY  commented  that  informed  players  could  make                                                               
multiple raises in poker.                                                                                                       
MR. MAKINSTER said Washington State limits the raises to three.                                                                 
SENATOR FRENCH  noted that  would be $240  maximum out  of pocket                                                               
for any game.                                                                                                                   
9:48:09 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR COWDERY said it is rare  for everyone to stay in the game                                                               
until the end.  Generally a table of ten ends  up with maximum of                                                               
three at the end.                                                                                                               
CHAIR SEEKINS asserted he does not want high stakes gambling.                                                                   
SENATOR HUGGINS asked  how low stakes would  change the structure                                                               
of SB 165.                                                                                                                      
MR. MAKINSTER said the house has no stake in the game.                                                                          
CHAIR SEEKINS interrupted to assert  they do; the higher the pot,                                                               
the bigger the rake.                                                                                                            
MR.  MAKINSTER said  SB 165  could set  the rake  at two  or four                                                               
9:50:14 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS said  SB 165  has been  portrayed as  recreational                                                               
gambling and it should be more for fun and not big money.                                                                       
9:52:18 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS proposed  a limit of a five-dollar wager  and a 15-                                                               
dollar per person pot.                                                                                                          
MR. MAKINSTER  asserted that rule  would ruin the game  of poker.                                                               
He said limiting wagers would take the zeal out of the game.                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said each  round  doesn't  always have  to  reach                                                               
9:54:18 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS  said  recreational   gambling  should  not  allow                                                               
unlimited pots.  That would be  raising the  risk of making  it a                                                               
fast game.                                                                                                                      
9:56:18 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS  said illegal enterprises  are not interested  in a                                                               
5-dollar limit because there isn't enough profit.                                                                               
SENATOR GUESS wondered why five dollars is too low of a limit.                                                                  
MR.  MAKINSTER said  the 15-dollar  pot is  what is  too low.  It                                                               
would be difficult  to control the pot size  without limiting the                                                               
9:58:31 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS  referred to  Page 2, lines  24-26, which  allows a                                                               
person to  buy chips  on credit.  He expressed  disagreement with                                                               
running up a tab. He said he is trying to avoid gambling debts.                                                                 
SENATOR COWDERY  said the establishment  owner has nothing  to do                                                               
with credit. Credit happens between players.                                                                                    
SENATOR  FRENCH  asked  whether they  were  talking  about  using                                                               
credit cards to buy chips.                                                                                                      
CHAIR SEEKINS clarified it was in-house credit.                                                                                 
10:01:48 AM                                                                                                                   
MR.  MAKINSTER pointed  out some  states disallow  buying at  the                                                               
table. A person  has to physically leave a table  in order to buy                                                               
more chips.                                                                                                                     
CHAIR SEEKINS said he would like to address that in SB 165.                                                                     
10:02:54 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR  HUGGINS commented  he has  noticed ornate  items in  Las                                                               
Vegas pawnshops.                                                                                                                
10:04:27 AM                                                                                                                   
CHAIR  SEEKINS  expressed  interest  in a  requirement  that  all                                                               
employees would  need a license  and they could not  be convicted                                                               
SENATOR  FRENCH  referenced  the provision  for  an  occupational                                                               
licensing but stated it wasn't clear to whom that applied.                                                                      
CHAIR SEEKINS  said he would require  it to be every  employee of                                                               
the facility, including the janitor.                                                                                            
10:07:02 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR  HUGGINS  asked Mr.  Makinster  to  clarify the  training                                                               
MR.  MAKINSTER  said  if legislation  required  employees  to  be                                                               
licensed,  the  provision  allows  a  place  to  train  certified                                                               
SENATOR   COWDERY   asked   Chair    Seekins   whether   it   was                                                               
constitutional to require a janitor to be licensed.                                                                             
CHAIR SEEKINS answered  yes. He said that pull-tabs  are close to                                                               
being  strong-arm  operations. He  is  not  interested in  having                                                               
reconstituted felons be dealers.                                                                                                
10:11:09 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR  GUESS   noted  the  language   on  Page  10,   line  24;                                                               
"character,  reputation, experience"  are  subjective words.  She                                                               
expressed concern over equal opportunity.                                                                                       
MR. MAKINSTER agreed it was a gray area.                                                                                        
CHAIR SEEKINS said  the Charitable Gaming Act is  limited to non-                                                               
profit corporations that are resident  to the State of Alaska. He                                                               
said he intends  to ask legislative legal whether  they can place                                                               
the same restriction on SB 165.                                                                                                 
10:13:44 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR COWDERY countered residence is a sticky issue.                                                                          
SENATOR GUESS  noted Page 14,  lines 4-5; opens  up opportunities                                                               
for discrimination. She questioned  who would judge the character                                                               
of another and whether that could be done fairly.                                                                               
SENATOR  HUGGINS  asked whether  employees  and  owners would  be                                                               
prohibited from gambling in the establishment where they work.                                                                  
MR.  MAKINSTER answered  it is  not prohibited  in SB  165. Other                                                               
states  do   not  allow   employees  to   gamble  in   their  own                                                               
establishment and card  room owners are typically  not allowed to                                                               
gamble in the state.                                                                                                            
10:16:46 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR FRENCH said the bulk  of concern from his constituents is                                                               
they are  not opposed to card  rooms but they are  concerned with                                                               
how  the  licenses would  be  issued.  He asked  Senator  Cowdery                                                               
whether he would be opposed to a public comment period.                                                                         
SENATOR COWDERY agreed that would be proper.                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS  pointed to a  KTUU survey, which showed  more than                                                               
60 percent of the people polled are against card rooms.                                                                         
SENATOR  GUESS said  her primary  concerns  are when  legislation                                                               
uses  words like  "character and  reputation" in  regards to  who                                                               
gets  licenses and  jobs.  It  is unclear  who  decides who  gets                                                               
licensed and who decides the character of another.                                                                              
CHAIR  SEEKINS asked  Mr.  Makinster whether  SB  165 requires  a                                                               
local election prior to authorizing card room in a community.                                                                   
MR. MAKINSTER  answered the only  election is  for municipalities                                                               
under  30,000. The  sponsor is  willing  to broaden  that to  all                                                               
SENATOR FRENCH clarified it would be a positive opt-in election.                                                                
10:20:28 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR  GUESS suggested  there  was  additional language  coming                                                               
from the House.                                                                                                                 
10:22:19 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR GUESS  asked whether the class  C felony of "cheats  at a                                                               
card game" is being defined on Page 19, lines 16-19.                                                                            
MR.  MAKINSTER   responded  the  verbiage  has   to  be  somewhat                                                               
ambiguous because  cheaters tend to  stay ahead of the  game. The                                                               
definition  points  to  several  devices and  instances  where  a                                                               
person could be assumed to be cheating.                                                                                         
10:24:02 AM                                                                                                                   
MR. MAKINSTER added the courts  would be tasked with deciding the                                                               
felony charge.                                                                                                                  
SENATOR GUESS  asked whether there is  a lot of cheating  in non-                                                               
banking games, such as rummy, cribbage and bridge.                                                                              
MR.  MAKINSTER  responded the  majority  of  cheating is  someone                                                               
trying to beat the house using by using card counters.                                                                          
SENATOR GUESS referred to Page  3, line 13; selecting "applicants                                                               
that  promote  the  most   economic  development"  and  expressed                                                               
concern over the ambiguous definition.                                                                                          
10:27:08 AM                                                                                                                   
CHAIR SEEKINS  offered someone  willing to  build a  new building                                                               
rather  than  putting  the  business in  a  used  building  would                                                               
fulfill that function.                                                                                                          
SENATOR GUESS said she wants to  ensure an even playing field and                                                               
that all Alaskans have a shot at the business.                                                                                  
CHAIR SEEKINS held SB 165 in committee.                                                                                         
                 SB 165-CARD ROOMS & OPERATIONS                                                                             
5:21:42 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR RALPH SEEKINS announced SB  165 to be up for consideration.                                                               
He referred Page  5 lines 13-23 and noted the  bill was excluding                                                               
any  applicant that  has a  pending registration  filed with  the                                                               
United States  Security and Exchange  Commission (SEC).  He asked                                                               
Mr. Makinster whether  there were any corporations  in Alaska who                                                               
meet that requirement.                                                                                                          
MR. RYAN MAKINSTER, staff to Senator John Cowdery, did not know.                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS speculated it would be a major sized corporation.                                                                 
MR.  MAKINSTER countered  not necessarily.  A  person could  have                                                               
other holdings.                                                                                                                 
5:23:58 PM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  HOLLIS FRENCH  asked what  it  means to  have a  pending                                                               
registration filed with the SEC.                                                                                                
MR.  MAKINSTER advised  the language  was  added to  the bill  by                                                               
legislative  legal. When  a  company  files to  be  on the  stock                                                               
exchange there  is a period  where the  company has to  be silent                                                               
about certain information  because it may affect  the stock price                                                               
on opening day.                                                                                                                 
SENATOR  FRENCH asked  the  type of  information  the company  is                                                               
allowed to withhold.                                                                                                            
MR.  MAKINSTER   answered  information  regarding   the  specific                                                               
company. He said  it doesn't preclude them from  giving out other                                                               
CHAIR SEEKINS disagreed.                                                                                                        
5:26:05 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS said  they  would  have to  provide  names of  all                                                               
persons holding 20  percent interest but would not  be subject to                                                               
the scrutiny  any other  applicant would be.  He said  it appears                                                               
the  wealthiest person  would  not be  required  to provide  much                                                               
information including the state they are registered in.                                                                         
5:29:02 PM                                                                                                                    
MR. MAKINSTER said  a company that has a filing  pending with the                                                               
SEC is in an information black out period.                                                                                      
CHAIR SEEKINS asserted  at that point he would  not be interested                                                               
in them being an applicant.                                                                                                     
SENATOR FRENCH concurred.                                                                                                       
SENATOR JOHN COWDERY concurred.                                                                                                 
5:31:44 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS moved Amendment 1                                                                                                 
     Page 5, line 15, after the word registration delete the                                                                    
comma,  insert semi-colon.  Delete the  rest of  sub-subparagraph                                                               
(i) and delete sub-subparagraph (ii).                                                                                           
Hearing no objections, the motion carried.                                                                                      
SENATOR FRENCH moved Amendment 2.                                                                                               
     Page 5, line 28, after the word "indicted", insert the word                                                                
Hearing no objections, the motion carried.                                                                                      
SENATOR FRENCH moved Amendment 3.                                                                                               
     Page 10, following line 20:                                                                                                
          Insert a new subsection to read:                                                                                      
               "(h) Before issuing a license, the department                                                                    
     shall provide notice to the public of the identity of the                                                                  
     applicant and the location of the proposed card room and                                                                   
     allow at least 30 days for public comment."                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS objected for explanation.                                                                                         
SENATOR FRENCH  advised the amendment  was like a  liquor license                                                               
or  a zoning  change. It  gives  the citizens  an opportunity  to                                                               
weigh in.                                                                                                                       
5:35:47 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR  SEEKINS   removed  his   objection.  Hearing   no  others,                                                               
Amendment 3 was unanimously adopted.                                                                                            
CHAIR SEEKINS  recessed the meeting to  the call of the  Chair at                                                               
5:35:59 PM.                                                                                                                   
CHAIR SEEKINS reconvened  the meeting at 7:36:10  PM. He referred                                                             
to  the  State  of  Washington's  administrative  code  regarding                                                               
limits on wagers and read through the information.                                                                              
7:37:54 PM                                                                                                                    
MR.  MAKINSTER commented  SB 165  gives  the DOR  the ability  to                                                               
regulate wagers.                                                                                                                
CHAIR SEEKINS asked Mr. Makinster  whether the information in the                                                               
State of Washington administrative code is a standard.                                                                          
MR.  MAKINSTER advised  it was  the same  between Washington  and                                                               
7:41:30 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS noted the ante could be $25 and any additional                                                                    
wager could only be $25 with a maximum of three additional                                                                      
MR. MAKINSTER said correct.                                                                                                     
SENATOR COWDERY commented it would be rare in a game for all                                                                    
people to be in until the end.                                                                                                  
7:45:47 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR SEEKINS advised the committee they would be tasked with                                                                   
setting a maximum wager.                                                                                                        
CHAIR SEEKINS held SB 165 in committee.                                                                                         

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