Legislature(2017 - 2018)GRUENBERG 120

04/04/2017 03:00 PM House STATE AFFAIRS

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            HB 190-REGULATION ADOPTION/ORAL COMMENT                                                                         
3:20:46 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  announced that  the next order  of business                                                               
would  be   HOUSE  BILL  NO.   190,  "An  Act  relating   to  the                                                               
presentation  of   oral  comments   on  the   proposed  adoption,                                                               
amendment, or repeal of regulations."                                                                                           
3:21:57 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP, after  ascertaining  the correct  document                                                               
for the motion, moved to  adopt the proposed committee substitute                                                               
(CS) for HB 190, Version  30-LS0732\J, Bannister, 3/31/17, as the                                                               
working  document.   There  being  no  objection, Version  J  was                                                               
before the committee.                                                                                                           
3:22:38 PM                                                                                                                    
JULIE MORRIS,  Staff, Representative Dave Talerico,  Alaska State                                                               
Legislature, on behalf of  Representative Talerico, prime sponsor                                                               
of  HB  190, reviewed  the  document  included in  the  committee                                                               
packet entitled  "Explanation of Changes  to HB 190 Version  A to                                                               
Version  J,"   which  read   as  follows   [original  punctuation                                                               
     Sec.  1 AS  44.62.190(a)(1)  deletes  newspaper from  a                                                                    
     requirement of publication.,  and includes the Internet                                                                    
     address of the state Agency's Internet website.                                                                            
     Sec.  2   AS  44.62.200   (d)  deletes   the  newspaper                                                                    
     Sec.   3  AS   44.62.210(a)   deleted  language   (when                                                                    
     requested  by the  person  or  the person's  authorized                                                                    
     Sec. 4 AS 44.62.245 (b)(2)  amends post to the agency's                                                                    
     Internet website  and deletes requirement  in newspaper                                                                    
     of general circulation.                                                                                                    
     Sec.  AS.21.123 (b)  repealed the  oral requirement  in                                                                    
     this statute  since it will  be covered now  in Section                                                                    
      Sec. 6 Applicability applies to regulations amended,                                                                      
     adoption [sic] or repealed on or after effective date.                                                                     
3:25:19 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE BIRCH referred  to the fiscal note  and asked what                                                               
savings  would be  realized by  eliminating  the requirement  for                                                               
publishing  [a  proposed action  to  adopt,  amend, or  repeal  a                                                               
regulation] in a newspaper.                                                                                                     
MS.  MORRIS  explained that  the  fiscal  note, included  in  the                                                               
committee packet,  was drafted  for Version A.   She  stated that                                                               
the  publication requirements,  both in  newspaper and  trade and                                                               
industry publications, and any potential  savings under Version J                                                               
are still in discussion.                                                                                                        
3:26:21 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP asked,  "At whose  request are  we removing                                                               
the newspaper component?"                                                                                                       
MS.  MORRIS  responded  that  the   discussion  of  the  cost  of                                                               
publications occurred during meetings  with "the chairman and his                                                               
staff,"  the  Department of  Law  (DOL),  and the  Department  of                                                               
Commerce,  Community,  and  Economic Development  (DCCED).    She                                                               
stated that the  public can post written comments  to the website                                                               
for  online public  notices; however,  depending  on the  agency,                                                               
oral testimony is not always allowed.                                                                                           
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP  commented that  he  is  not as  technology                                                               
("tech") savvy as  some people and still relies  on the newspaper                                                               
to be alerted  to proposed regulation changes.  He  added that he                                                               
consults the  website after seeing  notice in the newspaper.   He                                                               
stated that he has an  issue with excluding newspaper publication                                                               
[of proposed regulation changes].                                                                                               
3:27:55 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked if  there has been consideration for                                                               
a  consistent  standard  throughout the  [Alaska  Administrative]                                                               
Code (AAC) for notification procedures and information sharing.                                                                 
MS.  MORRIS  answered  that  in  the  proposed  legislation,  the                                                               
consideration has  been for allowing  the public  the opportunity                                                               
to give oral  comment.  She maintained that the  elimination of a                                                               
newspaper publication for public  notification is secondary.  She                                                               
conceded  that  many  people  still do  rely  on  newspapers  for                                                               
information instead  of electronic devices.   She emphasized that                                                               
there is  a need  to "get  the word out"  on how  regulations are                                                               
being amended and  changed.  She asserted that she  does not want                                                               
to create  more bureaucracy but  wants to streamline  the process                                                               
and  allow oral  testimony. She  maintained that  doing so  would                                                               
neither slow the process down nor cost more money.                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON agreed that  there are many people relying                                                               
on the newspaper for notices.   She expressed a need for bridging                                                               
the  gap  between those  individuals  and  tech savvy  people  by                                                               
making the  information available both in  newspapers and online.                                                               
She suggested  that the requirement for  newspaper publication be                                                               
retained  and the  language for  the information  technology (IT)                                                               
piece  be   added  to  the   statute  until  the   state  attains                                                               
consistency  regarding its  public  notices.   She lamented  that                                                               
currently there is no standardization in that regard.                                                                           
3:32:23 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL stated  that  in Version  A, oral  testimony                                                               
would have  been allowed  in addition to  written testimony.   He                                                               
added that oral  testimony is less formal  than written testimony                                                               
and undocumented.  He asked if  it was the intent of the original                                                               
version of HB 190 to allow the less formal testimony.                                                                           
3:33:06 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  DAVE TALERICO,  Alaska  State Legislature,  prime                                                               
sponsor  of HB  190, responded,  "That  was the  intention."   He                                                               
referred to  the 129  boards and commissions  in Alaska  to point                                                               
out that  not all  of them adopt,  amend, or  repeal regulations.                                                               
He gave  two examples  of groups  which make  recommendations but                                                               
have  no regulatory  authority:   the Alaska  Minerals Commission                                                               
(AMC) and the Alaska Safety  Advisory Council (ASAC).  He offered                                                               
that the  Alaska Board of  Architects and Engineers is  one board                                                               
that does  have regulatory  authority.   He concluded  that under                                                               
the proposed  legislation, oral testimony would  be available for                                                               
those boards  and commissions that do  have regulatory authority,                                                               
but not for those that do not.                                                                                                  
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL asked if under  Version J, a specialist, such                                                               
as a geologist or an  optometrist, who would be directly impacted                                                               
by the  proposed regulatory  change, would be  notified of  it or                                                               
would have to "find it."                                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE  TALERICO  answered,   "That's  probably  the  big                                                               
question."   He said  that the  changes in Version  J are  up for                                                               
discussion.    He  expressed  his  belief  that  "our  future  is                                                               
probably  more  electronic";  the discussion  on  procedures  for                                                               
notification is an  important one going forward;  and he conceded                                                               
that  many older  people rely  on  the newspaper  and many  young                                                               
people rely on electronic devices.                                                                                              
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL mentioned  that he  reads online  newspapers                                                               
and is  more apt to do  that than visiting board  websites or the                                                               
Alaska   Online   Public  Notice   System.      He  offered   his                                                               
understanding  that  similar  legislation  was  proposed  by  the                                                               
committee  chair  allowing  state agencies  to  put  publications                                                               
online rather  than producing paper  copies.  He offered  that he                                                               
is more likely  to read something that comes to  his mailbox than                                                               
to navigate to a website to obtain information.                                                                                 
3:38:26 PM                                                                                                                    
SUSAN  POLLARD,  Chief   Assistant  Attorney  General,  Statewide                                                               
Section  Supervisor,  Legislation  & Regulations  Section,  Civil                                                               
Division (Juneau),  Department of  Law (DOL), testified  that one                                                               
of her  job duties is  to advise agencies  on how to  comply with                                                               
the administrative procedures while  proceeding through the steps                                                               
for  adopting regulations.   She  stated that  the Alaska  Online                                                               
Public Notice System is one  of the available tools for receiving                                                               
notice of  state agency  actions.  She  asserted that  the system                                                               
was not  maintained by DOL  but by  the Office of  the Lieutenant                                                               
Governor  (OLG).   She  mentioned  that  the notice  of  proposed                                                               
regulation  change or  public  hearing by  an  agency, board,  or                                                               
commission must be posted on the system.                                                                                        
REPRESENTATIVE  BIRCH  asked  what   the  cost  differential  was                                                               
between a  published advertisement in  a newspaper and  an online                                                               
3:40:30 PM                                                                                                                    
SARA  CHAMBERS,  Operations  Manager, Division  of  Corporations,                                                               
Business,  and  Professional   Licensing  (CBPL),  Department  of                                                               
Commerce,  Community &  Economic  Development (DCCED),  responded                                                               
that CBPL represents  21 boards and commissions  and 22 licensing                                                               
programs;  all  43  entities  have  regulatory  authority.    She                                                               
explained  that CBPL  posts proposed  regulation  changes on  the                                                               
Alaska Online  Public Notice System;  it sends notices  to anyone                                                               
on  the  interested  parties  list;   and  it  sends  notices  to                                                               
licensees who  will be impacted  by a regulation change,  such as                                                               
through a fee  increase or an increase in the  cost of continuing                                                               
education.   She added that  CBPL always publishes notice  in the                                                               
newspaper.    By  statute  it  must be  a  newspaper  with  major                                                               
circulation; therefore,  CBPL chooses  to publish in  the largest                                                               
newspaper in the  state.  She said that the  cost of publishing a                                                               
newspaper  notice  is  typically  a couple  hundred  dollars  per                                                               
notice;  one  project  may  require   as  many  as  four  notices                                                               
depending  on   the  number  of   changes  to  the   project  and                                                               
supplemental notices.  She maintained  that the potential savings                                                               
to the licensees  through the elimination of  the requirement for                                                               
a  hard  copy  publication  of  notice -  including  a  trade  or                                                               
industry publication  notice - would  be substantial.   She added                                                               
that it is the licensees who  support CBPL; the division does not                                                               
receive any state general funds (GF).                                                                                           
3:42:52 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  BIRCH asked  if  there is  any  legal reason  for                                                               
advertising  in  print media,  or  if  online notification  alone                                                               
would be allowed.                                                                                                               
MS.  POLLARD  answered that  the  notice  of proposed  regulation                                                               
changes is  designed to reach  interested parties and  any person                                                               
who potentially could be affected  by the regulatory action.  She                                                               
stated  that  when the  Administrative  Procedure  Act (APA)  was                                                               
adopted [in 1959],  newspapers were the best  method of providing                                                               
general  notice.   She offered  that there  is probably  no legal                                                               
requirement for  notification in  print media, but  she suggested                                                               
that the question  is:  What is  the best way to  reach a diverse                                                               
group?    She  said  that  the court  has  looked  at  whether  a                                                               
newspaper  meets that  standard, and  she added  that her  agency                                                               
could consider that further.                                                                                                    
3:44:15 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP  mentioned  that  when  he  served  at  the                                                               
municipal  level, the  assembly  had to  give  notice of  meeting                                                               
agendas.   He maintained that  there was only one  newspaper with                                                               
general circulation; therefore, the  rates were "out of control."                                                               
He stated that to control  cost, the assembly responded by giving                                                               
as  notice  of  meetings  the  date, time,  and  reference  to  a                                                               
website.   This reduced the  advertisement from a half  page down                                                               
to a couple  columns.  He suggested that his  concern is that the                                                               
proposed  regulation  change be  "noticed";  the  content of  the                                                               
change is not  necessary in the notification; and he  can visit a                                                               
website for  the "body"  of the proposed  change.   He reiterated                                                               
that he avoids  searching the internet unless it  is a necessity.                                                               
He stated that his concern is  that electronic media would be the                                                               
sole source of notice.   He asked if the state  has record of the                                                               
number of times  that the Alaska Online Public  Notice System has                                                               
been accessed and  if there was any measure  of the effectiveness                                                               
of the system.                                                                                                                  
MS. POLLARD replied that she did not know.                                                                                      
3:46:57 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX asked  if notices  of proposed  regulation                                                               
changes are  published in  the classified section  of a  trade or                                                               
industry publication.   She suggested  that no one would  look in                                                               
the classified section for them.                                                                                                
MS. CHAMBERS  responded that notifications  are published  in the                                                               
legal notices section.  In  response to Representative Knopp, she                                                               
said that the  notifications are condensed to  the extent allowed                                                               
by statute, the drafting manual, and the APA.                                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX  suggested   that  professionals  who  are                                                               
looking  for notification  in  the legal  notices  section [of  a                                                               
trade or  industry publication] would  look online, if  they knew                                                               
that was where notice would be published.                                                                                       
MS. CHAMBERS  answered that she  has discovered that  when people                                                               
are given the opportunity to  select the method of notification -                                                               
paper notification  or email  notification -  more and  more they                                                               
are  opting for  email.    She added  that  CBPL still  publishes                                                               
notification in  newspapers, because  it is required  in statute.                                                               
She concluded that  CBPL posts notification to  the Alaska Online                                                               
Public Notice System, publishes it  in the newspaper, posts it to                                                               
its  website,  and  continues  to   "push  out"  notification  to                                                               
licensees when requested.                                                                                                       
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  suggested the possibility of  the proposed                                                               
legislation  only requiring  that  public notice  [of a  proposed                                                               
regulation  change] be  posted online,  and only  sending it  out                                                               
through email or mail to people asking to be informed.                                                                          
MS.   CHAMBERS  responded   that   the   impact  of   online-only                                                               
notification to  CBPL would  be savings  in time  and cost.   She                                                               
mentioned that she  did not know what the impact  would be to the                                                               
3:50:52 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX  requested  that someone  testify  on  the                                                               
impact to the public of her suggested method of notification.                                                                   
MS. POLLARD  replied that each  agency, including each  board and                                                               
commission, would  need to  "weigh in" on  how that  would affect                                                               
its interested parties.  She added  that DOL cannot speak for all                                                               
executive branch  departments; the DOL would  assist the agencies                                                               
to comply with whatever the  legislature decides is the mandatory                                                               
MS. CHAMBER  suggested that newspaper  publishers may be  able to                                                               
give  the  results  of  studies   that  they  have  done  on  the                                                               
readership of legal notices.                                                                                                    
3:52:06 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR   KREISS-TOMKINS  asked   if   the   savings  realized   by                                                               
eliminating  the  publication  requirement would  be  savings  to                                                               
licensees  who  currently  underwrite the  cost  of  notification                                                               
advertising through their license fees.                                                                                         
MS. CHAMBERS responded that for her  agency, that is true, but it                                                               
is not  necessarily true  for other  agencies with  other funding                                                               
mechanisms.  She  added that CBPL does represent  a large portion                                                               
of the "regulations generators."   She offered that the Version J                                                               
would retain the requirement for  a trade or industry publication                                                               
[to publish  notification of a  proposed regulation  change], and                                                               
she added that  adopting the CS might be like  "nailing Jell-O to                                                               
a wall."                                                                                                                        
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS  clarified that  Version J has  been adopted                                                               
by the committee.   He asked that at the  next committee meeting,                                                               
members  be provided  with a  review  of the  spectrum of  annual                                                               
savings to each  license holder if the  requirement for newspaper                                                               
publication of notification were eliminated.                                                                                    
MS.  CHAMBER  responded that  an  updated  fiscal note  would  be                                                               
provided  for  Version  J.    She  added  that  if  the  proposed                                                               
legislation  eliminates  the newspaper  notification  requirement                                                               
but  includes  a  trade   or  industry  publication  notification                                                               
requirement, it may result in a far greater expense.                                                                            
3:54:30 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE WOOL offered that a  licensee would be notified of                                                               
a  proposed change  in regulation;  the  discussion is  regarding                                                               
notice to the public.  He  asked, "Are you trying to reach beyond                                                               
the licensees?  Are you just  trying to reach ... the average guy                                                               
or girl? ... Who are you trying to reach with this?"                                                                            
MS. POLLARD  answered that the  people that an agency,  board, or                                                               
commission  must reach  is  listed in  the  APA mandatory  steps;                                                               
these  people include  the  licensees under  CBPL,  anyone on  an                                                               
interested parties list, and legislators.   She stated that it is                                                               
set in statute; the legislature  gives the agencies parameters as                                                               
to who  needs to receive  notice; and  the intention is  that the                                                               
maximum number  of people  who are  interested in  the regulatory                                                               
action will receive notice.                                                                                                     
REPRESENTATIVE  WOOL  mentioned  that   the  trend  of  newspaper                                                               
publishers is  to put content online;  people do not buy  as many                                                               
newspapers  as  they  once  did;  and  more  people  are  reading                                                               
newspapers online.   He said that  as a purchaser of  a newspaper                                                               
advertisement, he  is given the  choice -  print or digital.   He                                                               
suggested  that  there  are  many   who  do  read  legal  notices                                                               
depending on their interests.   He maintained that putting notice                                                               
on a  public, centralized  location rather  than a  state website                                                               
would be desirable to the average person.                                                                                       
3:57:32 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  referred to page  3, line 4,  which read,                                                               
"contentions in writing  or orally" and asked Ms.  Pollard if she                                                               
had any comment on that phrase.                                                                                                 
MS. POLLARD  responded that DOL does  not have any comment.   She                                                               
explained that  the section  deals with  public proceedings  in a                                                               
regulations project  and would require that  people interested in                                                               
commenting would have the opportunity  to present comments orally                                                               
as  well  as in  writing.    She  added  that currently  that  is                                                               
optional for agencies and boards.                                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  referred to  someone  calling  in to  an                                                               
agency with a comment on a  proposed regulation and asked if that                                                               
spoken  testimony must  be recorded  to be  part of  the official                                                               
MS. POLLARD answered that there is  a requirement in the APA that                                                               
an  agency "take  a  hard  look" at  comments  received during  a                                                               
regulations  project; a  complex regulations  project attracts  a                                                               
great deal of written information;  and the agency would document                                                               
the  receipt of  comments while  responding to  them.   She added                                                               
that  when  DOL  reviews  a regulations  project,  it  must  have                                                               
evidence that  it complied with  each statutory  procedure, which                                                               
includes an  affidavit from the  person handling  the regulations                                                               
project that oral and written comments were considered.                                                                         
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked if under the  proposed legislation,                                                               
oral comments  would be  recorded verbatim  and entered  into the                                                               
MS. POLLARD  pointed out  that page 10  of DOL's  Drafting Manual                                                             
for  Administrative Regulations  was  included  in the  committee                                                             
packet.    She  explained  that this  page  advises  agencies  on                                                               
handling  public  hearings;  the  agency must  have  a  plan  for                                                               
keeping a  record of the public  comments received.  She  gave as                                                               
examples transcription by a court reporter or staff notes.                                                                      
4:02:20 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  BIRCH  stated  that   he  supports  the  proposed                                                               
legislation   because  it   addresses  both   written  and   oral                                                               
testimony.  He mentioned that  some people will call in repeating                                                               
the testimony they  gave in an email.  He  said that the proposed                                                               
legislation  offers more  opportunity for  testimony.   He stated                                                               
that he also supports eliminating  the requirement for publishing                                                               
notification  [of proposed  regulation change]  in newspapers  to                                                               
save money.                                                                                                                     
4:03:17 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS opened public testimony on HB 190.                                                                         
4:03:28 PM                                                                                                                    
PAMELA SAMASH testified  that she supports HB 190  because of her                                                               
experience  with the  Alaska  State Medical  Board  (ASMB).   She                                                               
stated  that  she was  denied  the  opportunity to  provide  oral                                                               
testimony  on a  regulation  that  was important  to  her and  "a                                                               
matter  of life  or death."    She said  she asked  ASMB for  the                                                               
opportunity to  provide oral  testimony but  was only  allowed to                                                               
give  written testimony  by email.   She  said she  was concerned                                                               
that ASMB members  would not read all the  written testimony they                                                               
received.     She  maintained  that   because  the   issue  being                                                               
considered by ASMB was "lethal  and dangerous to human life," she                                                               
wanted to be  sure that each member of ASMB  heard her testimony.                                                               
She asserted that  ASMB never agreed to hear  oral testimony, and                                                               
she said  that she  hopes the  members read  most of  the emailed                                                               
testimony.    She  said  that she  felt  "powerless  and  silent"                                                               
regarding a vote that was very  important to her and to "hundreds                                                               
and thousands of future very innocent people."                                                                                  
4:05:25 PM                                                                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE  KNOPP  asked  Ms.  Samash  where  she  looks  for                                                               
proposed regulation changes - the online site or the newspaper.                                                                 
MS.  SAMASH replied  that  she has  received  notice through  the                                                               
newspaper, but for  the regulation to which she  was referring in                                                               
her testimony, she received notification through the internet.                                                                  
4:06:34 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS,  after ascertaining  that there was  no one                                                               
else who wished to testify, closed public testimony on HB 190.                                                                  
4:06:45 PM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR KREISS-TOMKINS announced that HB 190 would be held over.                                                                  

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB158 Fiscal Note ADM 4.2.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 158
HB158 Sponsor Statement 3.20.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 158
HB158 Supporting Document-Support Letters 3.20.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 158
HB0158.PDF HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 158
CSHB 190 Explanation of Changes.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB 190 Supporting docs.PDF HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 190
CS HB 190 Version J.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB163 Draft Proposed CS ver D 3.31.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 163
HB 165 Sponsor Statement 3.27.2017.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 165
HB 165 Fiscal Note DOA-DOP 3.27.2017.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 165
HB 165 ver A 3.27.2017.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 165
HB 165 Additional Document - Legislative Research Report 3.27.2017.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 165
HB 165 Additional Document - NCSL Chart_Veteran Preference in State Hiring 3.27.2017.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HB 165
HJR03 Supporting Document - DOE Ballot Initiatives 02.02.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HJR03 Supporting Document - Alaska State Constitution Language 02.02.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HJR03 Sponsor Statement 02.02.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HJR 3 Fiscal Note Gov 4.2.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HJR03 ver A 02.02.17.PDF HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HJR03 Supporting Document - NCSL Length of Sessions by State 02.02.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM
HJR03 Supporting Document - Leg Research Report 90 Day Limit 02.02.17.pdf HSTA 4/4/2017 3:00:00 PM