Legislature(1997 - 1998)

03/07/1998 10:05 AM STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
HB 329 - HARBORVIEW DEVELOPMENTAL CENTER                                       
                                                                               
Number 0326                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES announced the next order of business is HB 329, "An Act            
amending the definition of correctional facility to include a                  
therapeutic treatment center; providing for the conveyance of the              
Harborview Developmental Center and appurtenant land to the City of            
Valdez for the purpose of conversion and lease of a part of the                
center for a therapeutic treatment center for the Department of                
Corrections; providing that such a land conveyance counts toward               
the general grant land entitlement of the City of Valdez; and                  
providing for an effective date."                                              
                                                                               
Number 0330                                                                    
                                                                               
BETSY ROBSON, Assistant Director, Division of Institutions,                    
Department of Corrections presented HB 329 for the Governor.  She              
noted, also with her, to provide explanation on the bill, are Dugan            
Petty - Department of Administration, Larry Streuber - Department              
of Health and Social Services, and Joe Reeves - Department of                  
Corrections.  She said the Harborview project is a very important              
project for the state of Alaska and has far reaching implications              
for being able to reduce recidivism to make our state safer.                   
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON said HB 329 gives the Department of Corrections the                 
authority to establish a therapeutic community for the purpose of              
providing intensive drug treatment to incarcerated offenders.  She             
referred to a brochure that was distributed and explained                      
Harborview Developmental Center is in the process of being closed              
down and noted it is the facility that they are looking at having              
their therapeutic community at.  Ms. Robson noted they have done               
preliminary studies with an architectural firm to look at                      
programming and planning, and find that the therapeutic community              
would fit nicely into two wings of this building.                              
                                                                               
Number 0348                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON further explained that it's part of the Department of               
Correction's plan for addressing our severe overcrowding issues,               
the facility will incarcerate 16 medium to minimum custody inmates.            
The inmates who are participating in this program are inmates who              
would not otherwise be eligible for furlough or parole situations              
but by participating in this program that will enhance their                   
possibility for furlough and parole, thus freeing up the beds                  
sooner.  The program will also have a strong transition component              
into the community which means that those inmates that are                     
releasing on probation, parole, or furlough will in fact be                    
supervised in the community and will have treatments that will                 
follow them into the community.                                                
                                                                               
Number 0356                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON pointed out this program will allow the department to               
address some of our seriously addicted inmates.  She said they                 
estimate approximately 80 percent of the people who come to them               
have had involvements with substance abuse.  They're also aware                
that they have very seriously addicted offenders, and up until this            
point in time, they have not had the opportunity to address that               
serious addiction.  Ms. Robinson said, "We do have substance abuse             
programs in our facilities, they include education, a pretreatment             
component, and then an outpatient model.  With the addition of this            
therapeutic community we would be able to address those seriously              
addicted offenders in a 24-hour a day program."                                
                                                                               
Number 0362                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON emphasized the significant impact on their success with             
this program is the fact that they are designing culturally                    
relevant programming.  Last year the Legislature appropriated                  
$50,000 for them to look into their current treatment, and to look             
at their existing treatment as far as making it relevant to the                
population.  With that funding they are putting together training              
that will be provided to the prison substance abuse councilors and             
probation officers so that they will be able to evaluate people                
that will be going to this program and will be able to address the             
cultural issues with our population.                                           
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON said she believes the most significant point of this                
program is that it has the potential to reduce recidivism.  She                
called the members attention to the research summary of the                    
pamphlet, April 1997, and noted they recently received it from the             
federal substance abuse folks.  Ms. Robinson said the fifth program            
demonstrates the effectiveness of this type of treatment.  Last                
week they meet with a national expert, Doctor Gary Field, who                  
informed them that they tend to see anywhere from a 30 to 45                   
percent reduction in recidivism when this type of treatment is                 
applied to offenders.  Ms. Robinson indicated they expect to start             
out with a 25 percent decrease in recidivism by these offenders and            
anticipate that it will rise as the program gets underway.  She                
noted that they are very excited about this program and are really             
urging that people give it due consideration.                                  
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON noted, "As part of the process of locating the                      
therapeutic community, it is necessary for the State to convey a               
State facility, and that is the Harborview Hospital."  She asked               
Dugan Petty, from Department of Administration to explain Section              
2 of the bill which addresses the conveyance of the property.                  
                                                                               
Number 0388                                                                    
                                                                               
DUGAN PETTY, Director, Division of General Services, Department of             
Administration, came before the committee in support of HB 329.  He            
said the Department of Administration has been working with the                
City of Valdez, the Departments of Health and Social Services,                 
Corrections, Natural Resources and Transportation and Public                   
Facilities in preparing an interim agreement to prepare for the                
conveyance of the property.  He pointed out this building is                   
approximately 89,000 square feet, with a replacement value that is             
estimated to be over $40 million.  It's currently being used as the            
hospital in Valdez and, of course was used as the Harborview                   
Development Center.                                                            
                                                                               
MR. PETTY stated this is the first time they have decommissioned a             
(indisc.--coughing) building of this nature.  He noted the                     
Department of Administration has screened other state agencies and             
the only use within the system for this building, which has been               
expressed to them, is the one by the Department of Corrections.  He            
reiterated they have been working with the City of Valdez to                   
prepare an interim agreement based upon the indications that they              
received from the Legislature of last year in funding some funds to            
make available to explore this project.  Mr. Petty said, "We have              
excessed the personal property from the building except for that               
will remain with the facility and are prepared to move forward with            
this project.  We think it makes good sense and support the                    
project."                                                                      
                                                                               
Number 0401                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES asked if the current hospital is at one end of this.               
                                                                               
MR. PETTY replied yes.                                                         
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES asked who owns the hospital.                                       
                                                                               
MR. PETTY responded, "The hospital, it's been my understanding is              
owned by the..." [owned by the State of Alaska].                               
                                                                               
TAPE 98-33, SIDE B                                                             
Number 0001                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said she understands that one of the reasons it was                
closed down and was not to be used as it was before was the high               
cost of operations.  She asked what were the specific instances                
that caused it to be so expensive to operate in that building.                 
                                                                               
MR. PETTY deferred to Larry Streuber, Department of Health and                 
Social Services because he is more familiar with the operating                 
costs of the facility.  He said he knows that they have taken some             
efforts to put some energy conservation devices in there to both               
get a better read on the facility, to break them out, and also to              
reduce some of the operating cost.                                             
                                                                               
Number 0011                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES expressed one of the concerns she has with these types             
of programs, of treating people who are subject to addictions, is              
that when they go back home sometimes they fall right back into it.            
She asked what kinds of provisions do they have for those kinds of             
conditions.                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON explained they recognize that the return to the                     
community is a very critical point for these individuals and in                
fact, as part of the staffing for this facility, they will have a              
transitional counselor and a counselor aid.  They will begin                   
working with that individual as soon as he enters the program to               
help design his release plan in terms of the type of employment                
he'll have, where he'll live, what kind of housing.  Ms. Robinson              
explained that when they're ready to release the offender they will            
have made contact with the community to and make sure that support             
systems are in place because studies do show that there is a marked            
increase in success if you're able to have effective aftercare or              
transitional planning.                                                         
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES referred to the training program for the offenders.                
She asked "Are you going to be associated with some other ability              
for getting education such as the Prince William Community College             
or are you going to be doing all of the training for job                       
opportunities throughout your program or is it associated in any               
other way with any kind of education for these people."                        
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON replied they have been primarily focusing on the                    
treatment aspect of it.  She said they know they will have to have             
an education component and have had brief discussions with the                 
community college in Valdez.  That program has not been designed               
yet, but they understand that they need to have an educational                 
program.                                                                       
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES asked what is the time line.                                       
                                                                               
Number 0033                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON responded they are looking at the program opening in                
October of this year and indicated they do have some very real                 
concerns in terms of the renovations that have to be made on the               
facility because the two wings that we will be occupying (indisc.--            
coughing) will have to be renovated.  She noted last year the                  
Legislature approved a federal appropriation of $400,000 that came             
through grant funding which will be transferred to the City of                 
Valdez to be used for (indisc.--coughing) process.  The City of                
Valdez has also indicated a willingness to support, through funds,             
the renovation of the building.  She added that they are concerned             
with the time line.                                                            
                                                                               
Number 0046                                                                    
                                                                               
VICE CHAIRMAN IVAN called the State Affairs Meeting at-ease due to             
a fire alarm at 11:46 a.m.                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES announced the meeting will be called back to order at              
12:00 p.m.                                                                     
                                                                               
Number 0053                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA, Alaska State Legislature, came before              
the committees.  He said, "...and as Health and Social Services                
shut it down, it would create great problems for us in our hospital            
in what we would do with it.  You asked the question of why it was             
so expensive.  Health and Social Services made a decision years ago            
that they would not put more people in Harborview.  In the last six            
years or so, it's been housed at less than half its capacity.  It              
was in my opinion housed in so that it was made to be expensive so             
they could close it.  They philosophically did not want to house               
developmentally disabled people in a large institution.  So it's               
just a philosophy, they've all gone out to community based so                  
that's why it was so expensive. ... We did have a facility before              
the earthquake, in old town, and this facility was built pretty                
much on federal funds to house the hospital and Harborview                     
Developmental Center after the quake mostly on federal dollars."               
                                                                               
Number 0065                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA noted that this is the only real option that             
anybody's come up with of what to use the facility for.  He said               
it's basically not to house people.  Last year, in the budget, we              
did approve $400,000 of federal crime dollars.  He read, "For a                
therapeutic treatment community program of up to 100 beds in Valdez            
where the cost per inmate-day exclusive of treatment costs would               
not exceed the statewide average per inmate day for correctional               
institutions."  So they've put in a ceiling.  They said, all right             
you can have this program, but you have to come in at this cost,               
and that's what we're approving.                                               
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA mentioned they had a meeting in the fall with            
the Chairs of both Finance Committees and they gave a report.  He              
pointed out members of the Finance Committee insisted they have a              
recording mechanism to ensure -- it says, according to backup the              
savings generated by treatment will be substantial.  In other state            
programs a cost average of a seven-dollar return for every dollar              
invested.  Future savings should be documented for each dollar                 
invested in Harborview and that again was in the budget last year              
that we passed.  He reiterated that the department knows that they             
cannot go over a certain price for this thing and they have to                 
show, over a period of time, that it's cost-effective.                         
                                                                               
Number 0080                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA mentioned they weren't able to get Doctor                
Gary Field in front of the House State Affairs Committee.  He noted            
Doctor Field runs a similar program in Oregon and reported, in the             
last seven years, they've been able to document huge savings that              
they now have added three other programs in Oregon - spread around             
the state.                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA mentioned HB 329 has three other referrals               
and there is a catch, in the budget of last year, of the price that            
is has to come in at.  While it's not in the budget, it is included            
in the Governor's overall budget number that is there so it's not              
an add-on to his proposal.                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES reiterated her concern of the offenders returning to               
their community.  She suggested the offenders work during the day              
and return to Harborview in the evening as a transition.  Chair                
James mentioned she was also interested in the training they would             
be given because just getting them well isn't enough because most              
of the people, who have substance abuse problems, don't have any               
work skills either.  She asked if there are halfway-houses anywhere            
else in the state where these people can go out to work and come               
back.  She said she believes those suggestions may make it a more              
successful program in the long run.                                            
                                                                               
Number 0119                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA responded Doctor Field said, statistically               
one of the big things about this program is that it is separated               
and away by itself during the program.  Doctor Field said they have            
found that when the offenders are still in a prison setting, drug              
and alcohol programs don't work.  He suggested isolating them from             
all other inmates, to keep them with people that are going through             
this same type of program - maybe staggered in there depending on              
how long they've been there, how far they've gone, etcetera.  He               
also mentioned the program shouldn't be less than six months long              
and maybe, depending on the individual, maybe up to a year.                    
Representative Kubina suggested, once they reach the point of being            
released, rather than just say go home, suggest a halfway-house.               
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said there are so many laws affecting this person, the             
length of their sentence, that whether or not you have enough time             
to do this, and if you don't you might as well not spend any time              
on it.  Chair James noted, because we haven't had a system like                
this before, maybe the rest of our system needs to be amended or               
adjusted to be sure that this is an opportunity for these people.              
                                                                               
Number 0135                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON pointed out they did survey the population prior to                 
beginning any planning on this project to determine if we had an               
inmate population that had the need that this type of treatment                
would provide.  She said they have completed three different                   
surveys and found that there is certainly a population that has the            
sentence length to be able to participate in this program.  In                 
fact, there are easily 60 individuals in our system right now that             
could benefit from that.  Substance abuse councilors look at each              
individual offender to determine if they were individuals who would            
benefit from this program, if they had the kind of background that             
would make them good candidates for this program.                              
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON explained this would allow them to address serious                  
substance abuse problems so that these individuals could be                    
considered for furlough, for parole and their chances for being                
granted those early release mechanisms would be greatly enhanced by            
having gone through the treatment.                                             
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said he would assume that a lot of the                
folks that would come through this program would be felons, because            
of the duration of the program, which would mean that subsequent to            
participating in this they would get a halfway-house as a further              
transition and then be on some form of intensive parole.                       
                                                                               
Number 0150                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON responded they could possibly be furloughed to a                    
halfway-house situation.  One of the things the experts tell us is             
that once an individual completes this very intensive treatment,               
you have to be very careful that you don't put them back into a                
more restrictive setting because what you can do is you can undo               
the work that you have done.  Ms. Robson said, "But there are                  
cases, in fact when we were talking with Doctor Field, where there             
maybe individuals who need that very structured environment, to go             
out to work, to have somebody to be accountable to when they come              
back.  The individuals, once they've finished, if they were                    
furloughed to a halfway-house, or go out to the community, they                
would be under supervision - either it would be mandatory parole,              
in some cases there maybe an instance of discretionary parole.  So             
there would be some furlough status there.  In almost all cases in             
Alaska felons do receive probation supervision, so there would be              
supervision of these individuals out in the community."                        
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ asked Ms. Robson if she anticipates that              
there will be aftercare and that aftercare is going to be flexible             
enough so you can cater to the individual who's being treated.                 
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON replied that's correct.  She noted that is one of the               
reasons they have two transition counselors, is to begin working on            
that release planning the minute they come into that program.  If              
the individual for instance wants to go back to his village they               
can start making contact and ask if they have that support system              
there, is community treatment available.  If it's not, how can we              
address that issue.  They're looking at trying to send people back             
into their communities safely.                                                 
                                                                               
Number 0167                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he believes this makes economic sense.               
He stated, "One is we don't have enough beds in the system anyway,             
and so we're adding beds, ... and those beds will be no more                   
expensive than the beds that you're already providing on a                     
statewide average, and so you're kind of redirecting how the dollar            
is being spent on the prisoners.  You're spending the same amount              
of dollars on each individual that's incarcerated but, as Pete                 
Wilson notes, each dollar that you spend on treatment you're saving            
seven dollars down the road so it makes economic sense in future               
savings.  You're nodding your head, so I'm understanding correctly             
about the economic benefits."                                                  
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON replied yes it has been shown nationally that there are             
economic benefits to doing this type of treatment.  When they've               
done the studies and look at what substance abuse costs when a                 
person is in an addictive cycle in terms of hospital courts,                   
criminal justice system.                                                       
                                                                               
Number 0178                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON mentioned a dollar is not going to be an                  
added-on dollar, that's a dollar you'd be spending on these people             
because they would be incarcerated elsewhere.  So you're not adding            
dollars on because of the requirement that the cost of keeping that            
person in that bed, not exceed the cost of keeping that person in              
a bed - in any other part of the correctional system.                          
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON responded that's correct.  She said they've done an                 
analysis and found that the cost of this program is comparable to              
the cost of their other facilities.                                            
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON asked is the flow of people into these beds               
going to be completely controlled by the correctional system.  Or              
can the court, as part of the sentencing portion, can they say we              
sentence you to two years in Palmer and eight months at Harborview.            
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON explained this program would be similar to some of their            
other treatment programs and that is the courts frequently will                
make a recommendation for treatment, it may be sex offender                    
treatment, substance abuse treatment, batterers program, and when              
the Department of Corrections receives those judgements, they will             
look carefully at those and try to honor the request if at all                 
possible for treatment if the person has the length of time and                
custody level and all to fit into the programs.  That would be the             
same with this program.                                                        
                                                                               
Number 0192                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON further explained this program adds to their continual              
month care.  She said they have substance abuse education,                     
introduction to treatment and then an outpatient treatment model,              
but they don't have the end of that treatment continuum which is               
this therapeutic community.  So, by adding this, they now have a               
full continuum of care so when the councilors in the jails see                 
these individuals coming in they can say, "Okay this is an                     
individual that needs therapeutic community introduction and                   
education aren't going to do the bill, this guys been at this for              
25 years and needs some serious intervention."  So it adds that                
extra tool on so that we can actually meet the needs of the                    
offenders.                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON noted that is the department's tool and not               
the court's tool.  The Department of Corrections would be in                   
control of the flow of people.                                                 
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON replied yes we would be in control of the flow.                     
                                                                               
Number 0200                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES asked if you have somebody who is really a victim of               
substance abuse and now they're incarcerated, and it's not                     
available to them, how do you take care of those people, how do                
they survive.                                                                  
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON stated an institutional substance abuse treatment                   
councilor will do an assessment on the individual and they will                
determine the level of treatment the individual needs.  In the case            
of someone that needs intensive treatment, they don't have that                
currently available.  She said they may decide to put them in the              
next lower level of treatment which is the outpatient model and                
have them treated there.  They may also, when the individual comes             
up furlough or parole, they may say, "I think this person needs                
wait longer, we need to wait and see if we can get him in a                    
treatment program in the community when they're close to the end of            
their sentence or at the end of their sentence."                               
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON asked Chair James, "Treatment in the community."                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES replied any level of that treatment.  She asked if that            
is part of the Department of Correction's budget, is there any                 
reimbursement by the offender.                                                 
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON explained the treatment that occurs in the institutions             
with the substance abuse councilor is part of the Department of                
Corrections budget.  The treatment facility that individuals might             
be furloughed to are paid for by the Department of Health and                  
Social Services who have a specific number of grant positions                  
available to the department for that.  She said she believes, in               
the case of the individual in the community, that some of that is              
paid for through alcohol and drug grants and then the individuals              
may pay some of that if they're in the community.                              
                                                                               
Number 0216                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said, "Gene [Representative Kubina] indicated that with            
the budget that was authorized last year to review this opportunity            
- and that 400 beds - and also to keep the level exclusive of the              
health provider, exclusive of the medical part that the cost to                
keep them in this facility would be the same as the average                    
statewide.  So, if the cost of keeping them there is the average               
statewide, but then on top of that you have the medical coverage --            
what we we're talking in the hallway when I said what do these                 
people do all day, and you said their treatment is all day.  But               
you did say they would be doing their laundry and they're working              
in the kitchen and doing the scrubbing and those kinds of things.              
And then I asked well do they get paid for that.  It occurs to me              
that if there's additional expense, over and above the amount that             
it costs just to keep them at the average cost, and they're going              
to get medical treatment that's past that, which has a cost, that              
may be they could get credit for working to pay for that so that at            
least they have some responsibility for what they're getting."  She            
asked if her suggestion makes sense.  She said she doesn't know if             
our law allows that or not, but was thinking that might be a way to            
deal with that extra cost for the medical.                                     
                                                                               
MS. ROBSON replied yes it does.  She said she believes that                    
(indisc.--noise) cost of care per day that they do have, in fact               
the health care is built in here, including the amount for inmate              
gratuities and wages.  She mentioned Joe Reeves could go over the              
cost of care per day.                                                          
                                                                               
Number 0234                                                                    
                                                                               
JOE REEVES, Deputy Director, Division of Administrative Services,              
Department of Corrections, Manager, Division of Administrative                 
Services, Department of Corrections came before the committee.  He             
said he has been on board with the Valdez therapeutic community                
transition from the Department of Health and Social Services to the            
Department of Corrections as a therapeutic community for the last              
couple of years and has helped Ms. Robson and other members of the             
agency's transition team develop costs that would be within the                
(indisc.) of the legislative intent that was given to them.                    
                                                                               
MR. REEVES referred to page 4 of the handout, he said it shows the             
statewide average that they currently operate under in the                     
institutions, and that captured all cost categories that were                  
provided in the fiscal note they attached to this bill -                       
institutional costs, inmate programs, inmate health care and the               
Division of Administrative Services in support cost for a total.               
He stated, "And you say that, apparently in 1998 the statewide                 
average for the institutions is $100.07 a day.  We took the                    
proposed Harborview therapeutic community and derived the cost of              
that on the fiscal note and that made up $1,800,000 - 58.9 of which            
we broke out to be $84.88 a day.  You add the inmate programs at               
$28.49 a day, you add inmate health care that was in the fiscal                
note of $10.68 a day, you add the admin. support cost which was                
basically the date of communication...  It works out to be about               
thirty-one cents a day, and that makes out to a total -- statewide             
indirect is not included in the Valdez therapeutic community                   
because statewide indirect in this calculation pertains to                     
equipment of building depreciation and capital resources which we              
don't have any in this project.  So the statewide total is $124.36             
a day, and when you extrapolate that, the inmate treatment.  It                
comes out to be $95.87 a day."                                                 
                                                                               
Number 0255                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES reiterated there is approximately $30 a day calculated             
in for the treatment.                                                          
                                                                               
MR. REEVES replied treatment would now be $28.49 a day.                        
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES mentioned that has to be paid for by the state.  She               
indicated Mr. Reeves said the statewide indirect, which refer to               
maintenance and so forth is zero.  She asked who's going to                    
maintain the facility.                                                         
                                                                               
MR. REEVES responded that it will be maintained by the City of                 
Valdez.                                                                        
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said she understands this building was under the                   
Department of Health and Social Services and is currently being                
transferred to the City of Valdez, and then the city will contract             
with the Department of Corrections to do this.                                 
                                                                               
Number 0260                                                                    
                                                                               
MR. REEVES stated the facility will be transitioned from the State             
of Alaska to the City of Valdez and we will lease the portion of               
the facility from the City of Valdez.                                          
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said, so you're going to lease it maintained.                      
                                                                               
MR. REEVES replied yes.                                                        
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES asked who will these people be working for.                        
                                                                               
MR. REEVES responded they will be working for the Department of                
Corrections.                                                                   
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES indicated she would like to have them working for the              
City of Valdez.                                                                
                                                                               
Number 0266                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA pointed out, because some people have had a              
fear of what the cost will be to maintain the building, the city               
has taken on that responsibility and that liability.  He said the              
Health and Social Services maintenance person is going to be                   
transferred to the City of Valdez.  So if the roof has a problem,              
the city's taken on that responsibility, it will not be a State                
one.                                                                           
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES mentioned the Legislature has dealt with a lot of                  
issues in the area of prevention with calculations of how much                 
money you're going to save if you do this.  They're really a hard-             
sell only because you really don't know until you've done it.  Even            
though you use other people's experiences, it's really difficult               
for people to buy into that.  She noted that's one of the things               
that she's ever found to sell are prevention programs of any kind              
no matter where it is.  She asked Representative Elton if he had               
any other questions.                                                           
                                                                               
Number 0279                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he was going to make a motion to move HB
329 out of committee.                                                          
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES stated we're not going to be able to move this out                 
today.                                                                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he thought the packet of information that            
the people provided was pretty thorough and appreciated the                    
comments and testimony and this does have some legislative history             
that goes before the drafting of the legislation.  He said he                  
agrees with Chair James comment that you don't know what's going to            
happen until you try it.  He mentioned one of the things that has              
given him some comfort is the fact that somebody has tried this in             
another jurisdiction.  Representative Elton said, "I think that the            
comments by Governor Pete Wilson, that are part of the supporting              
packet, where he talks about the value of the dollars that you                 
invest in this, giving you a savings for every one dollar, giving              
a savings of seven dollars down the road, now that may or may not              
be accurate and that may or may not be what happens here.  But, I              
think that I'm comfortable enough to give this a boost in the right            
direction and I think that it is something we ought to try."                   
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said he could make a motion.                                       
                                                                               
Number 0292                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ELTON withdrew his motion.                                      
                                                                               
CHAIR JAMES said she thinks we can move HB 329 out on Tuesday.                 
                                                                               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects