Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/17/1996 10:00 AM STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 HB 338 - CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS                                
                                                                               
 The next order of business to come before the House State Affairs             
 Committee was HB 338.                                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the first witness via teleconference in                 
 Valdez, Walter Wood.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 1915                                                                   
                                                                               
 WALTER WOOD said he was here to testify on the liberalization of              
 the permit.  He said the present restrictions were too severe.  He            
 said it was insulting to be treated like a second class citizen by            
 the police department.  He said he did not apply because it was               
 tough so he gave up.  He said the amendments were on the right                
 track and with a few modifications the bill would be more                     
 acceptable.  He further said he objected to the local option                  
 provision.                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness in Juneau, Harlan Knudson.             
                                                                               
 Number 2028                                                                   
                                                                               
 HARLAN KNUDSON, President, Alaska State Hospital and Nursing Home             
 Association, stated he opposed HB 338.  Hospital and Nursing Homes            
 really did not want a concealed handgun inside.  He further asked             
 the committee members to consider the Association's proposed                  
 amendment that would add hospitals and nursing homes to the list of           
 places a concealed handgun was prohibited.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 2086                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said the amendments allowed places to post a notice.              
                                                                               
 Number 2112                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN asked if the posting of the notice would have             
 the same affect as if it were in a statute.                                   
                                                                               
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "yes."  She said it gave a choice.  It gave a            
 choice to those areas that felt threatened such as rural areas.               
                                                                               
 Number 2143                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN wondered if it would have the same force of a             
 law.                                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 2147                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "yes,"  it was in statute.                               
                                                                               
 Number 2161                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON suggested specific language in the law                
 because she was concerned about possible confusion.                           
 Number 2180                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said it was in the original bill.                                 
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Kenai,           
 Richard Hubley.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 2222                                                                   
                                                                               
 RICHARD HUBLEY said he was concerned about the proposed off-limit             
 places.  He asserted, the off-limit areas created safe zones for              
 the criminal.  He wondered about the permittee that found himself             
 in an off-limit place and asked what he would do with the handgun.            
 That, he said, needed to be addressed further.  The criminal did              
 not care about the restrictions, but the licensee was only out to             
 protect himself and his family.  He said he did not see a reason              
 for the restrictions and further clarifications were needed.                  
                                                                               
 Number 2328                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES agreed with Mr. Hubley's testimony, and suggested                 
 giving the bill implemented one year ago a little more time to                
 educate the public that permitees were law abiding citizens, and to           
 keep the gun concealed to prevent distress.  She said the                     
 restrictions would not stop a criminal.  She further stated the               
 bill needed to be sold better to establish credibility.                       
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in                  
 Kodiak, Giovanni Tallino.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 2401                                                                   
                                                                               
 GIOVANNI TALLINO said the permit regulations needed to be changed.            
 He stated the cost was too high and prevented those that needed it            
 the most from obtaining a permit, such as single women.  He said              
 most restaurants in Kodiak served alcohol and was concerned he                
 could not take his concealed handgun to those places to protect his           
 family.  He further said there were teachers that drove many miles            
 to and from school and asked why they should be deprived of their             
 protection.  He said 4,000 permits had been issued and of those               
 4,000 only .002 percent had been revoked.  He suggested looking at            
 4,000 driver licenses and the misuses and abuses out of those 4,000           
 licenses.  He said the bill had already been sold.                            
                                                                               
 TAPE 96-18, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 10                                                                     
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked Mr. Tallino if he would be comfortable            
 with a provision that precluded a person from carrying a concealed            
 weapon while drinking.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 20                                                                     
 MR. TALLINO replied, "he certainly would be."  He said alcohol and            
 firearms did not mix in any given case.  He stated, if he was                 
 drinking, he should leave his gun and car at home.                            
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in                  
 Fairbanks, Glen Eiler.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 41                                                                     
                                                                               
 GLEN EILER said he was in favor of HB 338.  The only people the               
 bill would regulate were law abiding citizens, and there was                  
 already a law in place to prohibit people from committing crimes              
 with a handgun.  He felt a list of prohibited places would tell a             
 criminal that everyone there was unarmed.                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in                  
 Kodiak, Karleton Short.                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 123                                                                    
                                                                               
 KARLETON SHORT said he agreed with Mr. Tallino that a person should           
 be able to bring a concealed handgun into an establishment that               
 sold alcohol, but not allowed to drink.  He asserted, a person that           
 carried a concealed weapon, should not drink, period.  A concealed            
 weapon on school grounds was acceptable as long as the person did             
 not leave the vehicle.  He further said the fee should be lowered             
 because it was hard for some people to afford the license.  He also           
 said the classes were expensive.  He cited the state of Florida               
 showed it was a means to lower crime.                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Homer,           
 Roy Hoyt, Jr.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 199                                                                    
                                                                               
 ROY HOYT, JR. said he was a 35 year resident of the state.  He said           
 the fees were reasonable and he did not think they should be                  
 lowered to the extent the state subsidized it.  He said he agreed             
 with the application process, and stated the restrictions should be           
 relieved.  He further wondered why there was a fee for reciprocity            
 as long as the other state's program was equivalent to Alaska's.              
 He said the current program was good and he did not want it                   
 diluted.  He further suggested a one year residency eligibility.              
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in                  
 Glennallen, Ed Knoebel.                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 311                                                                    
                                                                               
 ED KNOEBEL said he was a 35 year resident of Glennallen.  He                  
 suggested reducing the cost.  He said a military card was the best            
 form for the identification process.                                          
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Delta            
 Junction, Bernard Goodno.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 398                                                                    
                                                                               
 BERNARD GOODNO said he opposed HB 338 on constitutional grounds.              
 He cited Marbury vs. Madison that said the United States                    
 Constitution was the supreme law of the land.  Therefore, a law               
 that did not conform to the Constitution was not a law.  He called            
 this a deception.  He also cited the Seventh Amendment to the                 
 United States Constitution that said the right to a trial by jury             
 was the foundation of common law.  He alleged HB 338 could be                 
 thrown out of court.                                                          
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Delta            
 Junction, Gene Ottenstroer.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 466                                                                    
                                                                               
 GENE OTTENSTROER said HB 338 was unconstitutional and was opened up           
 for a Title 42 lawsuit.  He said the bill contained too many rules            
 and regulations.  He cited Hitler in Germany started with concealed           
 handguns followed by a registration for all types of weapons then             
 complete confiscation.  He also cited in Canada all guns needed to            
 be registered.  He asked if the United States was next?  He stated,           
 behind the agenda, was a United Nation rule that did not allow                
 handguns.  He stated, this issue was not just about handguns, but             
 about an attack on the Constitution.  He asked if the Fourth                  
 Amendment was next, for example?                                              
                                                                               
 Number 569                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied Mr. Ottenstroer's assertions were not             
 founded.  He said he understood his concerns, but the committee was           
 trying to expand his rights and not take them away.                           
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in Kenai,           
 Ray Carr.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 620                                                                    
                                                                               
 RAY CARR said he was an instructor and favored the changes to HB
 338.  He said 20 percent of interested students decided not to take           
 the class when they discovered they violated the law if they                  
 carried a concealed gun to a restaurant that served liquor, for               
 example.  He said he did not support drinking while carrying a                
 concealed weapon.  He said the closer Alaska could get to the state           
 of Vermont's law, the better.                                                 
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on Barbara Cotting to explain the amendments to            
 HB 338.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 730                                                                    
                                                                               
 BARBARA COTTING, Legislative Administrative Assistant to                      
 Representative Jeannette James, said it was discovered that                   
 determining where a place was prohibited by federal law was more              
 difficult than expected.  She referred the committee members to the           
 federal statutes that cited it was prohibited on airlines and some            
 federal parks.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 829                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON asked which national parks were prohibited.           
                                                                               
 Number 860                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING replied:  for example, Klondike Gold Rush National                
 Historical Park, Sitka National Historical Park, the former Mt.               
 McKinley National Park, Glacier Bay National Monument and Katmai              
 National Monument.                                                            
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING read Amendment F.1 "adds the condition that a licensee            
 carrying a concealed handgun in a licensed restaurant or bar may             
 not consume intoxicating liquor, and further that a licensee                 
 carrying a concealed handgun anywhere may not be impaired by                
 alcohol."  Testimony substantiated that a licensee would be willing           
 to give up alcohol for the privilege of carrying a weapon.                    
                                                                               
 Number 948                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON moved to adopt Amendment F.1 for                      
 discussion.  There was no objection.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 958                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said a permittee could drink alcohol before             
 entering an establishment, and wondered about the level of                    
 impairment.  He said testimony indicated one should not drink,                
 period, while carrying a concealed weapon.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 994                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated currently, in statute, a person could              
 carry a gun as long as he was not intoxicated.  He agreed alcohol             
 and firearms did not mix and wondered about prescription drugs such           
 as cold medicines that impaired judgements.  He stated there should           
 be some exclusions.                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1090                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said everyone she had talked to agreed that no alcohol            
 was the level of acceptance.  The level of intoxication was not               
 always evident, she stated.                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER interjected, "in public."                               
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied it could not be enforced within an individual's           
 home.  The goal of Amendment F.1 was to prohibit consumption of               
 alcohol while carrying a concealed weapon.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1188                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN replied a car was a more dangerous weapon than            
 a gun.  He cited more people were injured by a car in automobile              
 accidents.  He said he agreed with the Amendment F.1, and suggested           
 further amending it to define impairment as it was defined for                
 drinking while driving an automobile.                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES wondered about an individual entering a premise already           
 under the influence.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 1265                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN wondered if Amendment F.1 said, one could not             
 be under the influence at any time and any where.                             
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "that's the intent."  She stated if a person             
 took medication that advised against driving he should not carry a            
 concealed weapon either.  She stated it was a judgement call and              
 would be hard to put into law.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 1310                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON said she agreed with Representative Ogan              
 and Chair James regarding alcohol consumption and carrying a                  
 concealed handgun.  She said it was the bottom line and it should             
 be very clear that one should not drink while carrying a concealed            
 weapon.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 1345                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES wondered how to define the level of intoxication as               
 Representative Porter mentioned.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 1355                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON said because it was difficult, that was why           
 the law should state, clearly, drinking was not allowed while                 
 carrying a concealed weapon.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1375                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said language should be drafted to address a            
 measurement of time to take care of a person that consumed alcohol            
 in the privacy of his own home.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 1400                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied she did not want to get into the measurement              
 issue.  She said a law that specifically stated no alcohol                    
 consumption in public while carrying a concealed weapon was needed.           
 She said the enforcement was another issue, and it was not a                  
 problem until there was a problem.  Then, a level of measurement              
 would be necessary.                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1478                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said intoxication and consumption were of               
 common knowledge, therefore, an expert was not needed to testify in           
 court, for example.  The Supreme Court ruled that it was normal               
 knowledge.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1523                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered if the .1 and .08 intoxication levels           
 were not necessary based on the Supreme Court ruling.                         
                                                                               
 Number 1544                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied it was the weight of the testimony              
 that guided the decision.  He said it would be tough to get a                 
 conviction without a breathalizer test, but not impossible.  He               
 stated, the exception to expert testimony, was on the state of                
 sobriety in general terms.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1601                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said the amendment implied a dual standard               
 because it only addressed "while" in the establishment and not                
 "before" or "after."  He suggested replacing the amendment with               
 "cannot be intoxicated" language.                                             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said one could not consume alcohol while in             
 public and while carrying a concealed weapon.                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said a person could get drunk in his own home            
 and become a menace.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 1657                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied there were laws that prohibited                 
 possessing a firearm while intoxicated.  He agreed there was a                
 potential problem, but he did not know how far the committee                  
 members wanted to go to try to solve it.                                      
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES called on the next witness via teleconference in                  
 Gakona, Alan Lemaster.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 1788                                                                   
                                                                               
 ALAN LEMASTER cited a commercial pilot was not allowed to fly if he           
 consumed alcohol within a 24 hour period.  He suggested using that            
 type of limit as a precedence.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 1817                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied it was eight hours for a general                
 aviation license.                                                             
                                                                               
 MR. LEMASTER said his only reference was with a commercial pilot.             
 He stated the enforcement, however, was difficult.                            
                                                                               
 Number 1865                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said normal consumption would dissipate                 
 within eight hours according to general aviation.  He said it was             
 a reasonable basis and could be carried forward in HB 338.                    
                                                                               
 Number 1925                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES suggested putting Amendment F.1 aside to work on it               
 further in the next committee of referral - the House Judiciary               
 Committee.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1942                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON agreed with Chair James as long as it was             
 clearly understood that the committee members wanted language that            
 prohibited alcohol consumption while carrying a concealed weapon.             
                                                                               
 Number 1963                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said he did not object to adopting Amendment              
 F.1.                                                                          
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said she had a problem with the language and would                
 rather address this issue in the next committee - the House                   
 Judiciary Committee.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 2006                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON wondered if Amendment F.1 allowed a person            
 carrying a concealed weapon into a bar.   She said she was not                
 concerned about the person carrying, but the intoxicated patrons.             
 She cited she knew friends in Juneau who had been attacked at a bar           
 and walked home.  She stated, a part of her believed, it was a                
 shame they did not have a gun on them.  Representative Robinson               
 further stated she thought the committee members agreed, and                  
 testimony supported, it was dangerous to carry a concealed weapon             
 into a bar.                                                                   
 Number 2265                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied the testimony from Palmer indicated there was             
 not a restaurant that was not also a bar.  She said she had been to           
 restaurants in that area and she knew that was not true, however.             
 She cited Alaska had a varied population and wondered if in the               
 bush more people carried a weapon "outside" of their person as                
 opposed to concealed.  She said, if there was a way to keep the               
 criminals out, then there was no need for a concealed handgun, but            
 it was not guaranteed, therefore, a person had a right to protect             
 himself.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 2393                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER cited his favorite restaurant in Anchorage              
 was Club Paris where the front was a bar and the back was a                   
 restaurant.  Therefore, if he were a permittee he could come in the           
 back door but not the front door.  He stated that did not make a              
 lot of sense.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 2443                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES asked, if the committee members agreed in concept, that           
 a permittee could not consume alcohol while carrying a concealed              
 weapon, and stated there was disagreement about whether a permittee           
 could carry a concealed weapon into a bar.  It might be necessary             
 to define a bar to come to a consensus.                                       
                                                                               
 TAPE 96-19, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 22                                                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said Amendment F.1 would not allow a permittee to carry           
 into a bar that was not an eating establishment.  The concern,                
 however, was that an eating place was just as much of a bar in many           
 cases.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 55                                                                     
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON wondered about the perception of an                   
 establishment.  She cited a restaurant at Hatcher's Pass in Palmer            
 where one could get a drink and a hamburger.  She also cited the              
 Triangle Club in Juneau where one could get a drink and a hot dog,            
 but it was clearly a bar.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 118                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN explained the restaurant at Hatcher's Pass had            
 a definite side that was a restaurant and a definite side that was            
 a bar.  However, he cited Humpy's Great Alaskan Alehouse in                   
 downtown Anchorage that did not differentiate between the                     
 restaurant and bar.  After a certain time period, it turned into a            
 major bar scene, he said.                                                     
 Number 172                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES asked the committee members, if they wanted to vote on            
 Amendment F.1 or set it aside?                                                
                                                                               
 Number 187                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied, if he understood, the committee                
 members wanted to preclude the consumption of alcohol at any time             
 while carrying a concealed weapon in public and any time after a              
 permittee had been drinking in private.  He suggested including the           
 eight hour provision that general aviation followed.                          
                                                                               
 Number 172                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said the committee members agreed with the above                  
 statement by Representative Porter.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 260                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied, "no."  There was a redundancy that              
 was not necessary.  He said, if the eight hours was included, the             
 other part was not necessary.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 284                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied it was two separate things - consuming alcohol            
 while at a restaurant, and having consumed alcohol before attending           
 the restaurant.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 323                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied it did not matter where the permittee            
 consumed the alcohol - at a restaurant or at home - because it was            
 within eight hours.                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 337                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES responded, "that is a point."  The committee did agree            
 and language would have to be drafted accordingly.                            
                                                                               
 Number 345                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said Amendment F.1 wiped out the eating                  
 establishment.  It was a moot point if the eight hour criteria was            
 used, he stated.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 364                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES agreed with Representative Green.  She further stated             
 the other issue was whether or not a permittee could be in a bar              
 that concerned Representative Robinson.  She said she did share               
 that concern with her, however.  She wondered about the rest of the           
 committee members, if they also shared her concern.                           
                                                                               
 Number 393                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIS asked if a bar owner could post a notice?               
                                                                               
 Number 405                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "he could."  He might not want to, however.              
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIS asked if he had the option?                             
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "he had the option."  She further stated a               
 notice told a criminal he did not have any opposition.                        
                                                                               
 Number 443                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN wondered if a female permittee holder would              
 have to carry a "fanny pack" to conceal the weapon while in a bar.            
 He was concerned about it lying around while dancing, for example.            
                                                                               
 Number 479                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "there were other places to carry it,                    
 Representative Green."                                                        
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON responded she hoped most people were smart            
 and did what they were suppose to do, but agreed with                         
 Representative Green, that a weapon concealed in a purse was                  
 dangerous.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 520                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied if a woman was to protect herself, a concealed            
 weapon in her purse was the least favorable place to carry it.                
                                                                               
 Number 537                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON wondered, if a permittee carried a weapon             
 into a bar and someone tried to hurt him, could he use it.                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied, "absolutely."                                            
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES announced the House State Affairs Committee would not             
 be discussing HJR 51 today due to time constraints.                           
                                                                               
 Number 595                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON withdrew her motion.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 600                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked about a conceptual amendment, and                   
 wondered if a committee substitute would need to be drafted.                  
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES responded, "yes."  The Chair of the House Judiciary               
 Committee, Representative Porter, understood the concerns of the              
 House State Affairs Committee members.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 620                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON announced she wanted a committee substitute           
 before it left the House State Affairs Committee.                             
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said a committee substitute was necessary, but this               
 issue would not be included.                                                  
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON said she preferred to deal with all the               
 issues first then draft a clean committee substitute before it left           
 the House State Affairs Committee.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 653                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said there was a consensus.  He moved to                
 accept a conceptual amendment to Amendment F.1 to disallow the                
 consumption of alcohol at any time in public, if a permittee was              
 carrying a weapon, and that he may not appear in public with a                
 concealed weapon, if he had consumed alcohol within eight hours.              
                                                                               
 Number 720                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN reiterated the first part was not necessary              
 because, if a permittee had consumed alcohol within eight hours, he           
 could not consume in public.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 730                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he did not disagree with Representative            
 Green's statement.  However, sometimes it was necessary to put more           
 information into law.  He was not concerned about being technically           
 correct.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 746                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES suggested, when the committee substitute was drafted,             
 she would run it by the committee members before moving it to the             
 next committee of referral.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 776                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he agreed as long as the language was               
 clear.  He was concerned it would be so confusing that it would not           
 mean anything.  He said if the eight hours added to it rather than            
 detracted from it, that was fine.                                             
 Number 801                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said she would put it on the agenda again next week and           
 suggested moving forward.                                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES asked if there was an objection to the amendment to               
 Amendment F.1.  Hearing no objection, it was so moved.                        
                                                                               
 Number 896                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING said Amendment F.2 added the clause "while school is in           
 session."                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 923                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER wondered, if the concern was about parents              
 dropping their children off at school and picking them up at                  
 school, and stated by definition alone that was enough to indicate            
 school was in session.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 948                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES said she agreed with Representative Porter.  She                  
 explained Amendment F.2 addressed the concern in Fairbanks where              
 the gun shows were held in the high school.  She stated they would            
 have to carry their guns in a suitcase, and she was not comfortable           
 with that.  She cited she was not comfortable carrying her handgun            
 in a closed bag because she felt vulnerable, and there were laws              
 that addressed carrying a concealed weapon on or about a person.              
                                                                               
 Number 1028                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied the municipality of Anchorage changed           
 the law from "on or about your person" to "on your person."                   
                                                                               
 Number 1101                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON wondered about the shooting ranges at                 
 schools, and further asked how the law passed last year addressed             
 that issue.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1117                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied there was a provision that allowed              
 the permission of the principal or the person in authority over the           
 premise to decide.  That allowed people to bring a weapon into and            
 out of schools to gun shows.  He reiterated "while in session" was            
 not necessary.  He said the committee members discussed a person              
 may drive in an automobile onto the grounds with a concealed                  
 weapon, but he may not disembark.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 1160                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN wondered about sporting events on school                  
 grounds.  He cited during the summer in Palmer baseball and soccer            
 games were on school property.                                                
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES responded, "you don't carry your concealed when you do            
 that."                                                                        
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER also replied, "it was against the law now,              
 Scott."                                                                       
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN responded, "I realize that."                              
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES announced the consensus of the committee members that             
 they did not want to move Amendment F.2 now.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1230                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING explained Amendment F.3 was a conforming amendment that           
 removed a section which conflicted with the list of misdemeanors in           
 the bill.                                                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES announced Amendment F.3 was now Amendment F.2 for                 
 clarification.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 1300                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if Amendment F.2 put it back to the               
 bill that was passed last year?                                               
                                                                               
 Number 1308                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING explained Amendment F.2 put it back to listing the                
 specifics that would disqualify a person.                                     
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if the list had been altered?                     
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING replied, "somewhat."  The list presented Tuesday,                 
 February 13, 1996, was now included in the committee substitute (CS           
 9-LS1157/F) which showed the misdemeanors deleted.  She referred              
 the committee members to page 3 and page 4 of CS 9-LS1157/F.                  
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES announced they were not violent type misdemeanors.                
                                                                               
 Number 1539                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING further explained they were misdemeanors that dealt               
 with violence and weapon offenses.                                            
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES suggested moving forward.  She stated Amendment F.4 was           
 now Amendment F.2 because Amendment F.3 was not adopted.  She read            
 Amendment F.2 added back the right to post signs prohibiting                  
 concealed handguns on the posted premises.  Specification for the             
 signs were already in the concealed handgun law.                              
                                                                               
 Number 1627                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON moved to adopt Amendment F.2.  Hearing no             
 objection, it was so adopted.                                                 
                                                                               
 The record reflected Amendment F.5 now was Amendment F.3 for                  
 clarification.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 1655                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING read Amendment F.3 reduced the penalty from a class B             
 misdemeanor, a criminal penalty, to a violation for carrying a                
 concealed handgun into a prohibited area.  She referred the                   
 committee members to Section 12, item (c) and read, "in addition to           
 any other penalty provided by law, a person who violates this                 
 section is guilty of a class B misdemeanor."  That meant a person             
 who carried a concealed weapon into a posted premise would still be           
 guilty of a class B misdemeanor, but in other instances where it              
 was inadvertently carried, and it was not posted, they would not be           
 guilty of a misdemeanor, but of a violation.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1699                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES cited at the University of Alaska Fairbanks (UAF) she             
 noticed the sign upon leaving the building.  She again said the               
 semantics were a problem and wondered what would a permittee do               
 with his weapon at the door.  The university did not want to                  
 prevent a person from carrying a concealed weapon, but it also did            
 not want a weapon in the classroom.  The sign was in the wrong                
 place, therefore, a permittee would not know he was carrying a                
 weapon into a prohibited place, therefore, a class B misdemeanor              
 was severe.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1812                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN said the testimony indicated permitees were law           
 abiding citizens, and supported Amendment F.3.  He said ignorance             
 was not a justifiable offense, but in some situations, exclusions             
 were necessary.  He asked if a violation was grounds for a                    
 permittee to lose his permit?                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1883                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON said she was more concerned about a                   
 reckless permittee holder.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1932                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES asked Representative Porter what the penalty was for a            
 class B misdemeanor?                                                          
 Number 1940                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied a class A misdemeanor was a maximum             
 $1,000 fine and one year in jail.  Therefore, a class B misdemeanor           
 was something less than that.  He was not sure, however.                      
                                                                               
 Number 1960                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES asserted a class B misdemeanor was not fair.                      
                                                                               
 Number 2009                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied, in any event, there was the                    
 possibility to present the case in court.                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1997                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES responded Representative Porter had more faith in the             
 courts than she did.                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 2015                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN said he agreed with the amendment.  He further            
 said this country had a diverse background and cited many people              
 did not speak English, but were law abiding.  He wondered about               
 those individuals inadvertently breaking the law.                             
                                                                               
 Number 2054                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE OGAN moved to adopt Amendment F.3.  Hearing no                 
 objection, it was so adopted.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 2068                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE WILLIS asked Chair James about the fee level.                  
                                                                               
 CHAIR JAMES replied it would probably be around $100.                         

Document Name Date/Time Subjects