Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/04/1994 08:15 AM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
  HCR 12 - USE OF NATURAL GAS IN MOTOR VEHICLES                                
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE DAVID FINKELSTEIN, PRIME SPONSOR, stated the                  
  move to get natural gas vehicles in Alaska has been slow                     
  going, but added there are many positive elements ongoing.                   
  The federal government has renewed interest, the state is                    
  making initial efforts converting its fleet, and the                         
  municipality of Anchorage recently put a couple of vehicles                  
  on line and has requested $500,000 in their capital request                  
  for a pilot project to expand the use of natural gas                         
  vehicles.  He felt it was appropriate to have a resolution                   
  such as HCR 12 showing the legislature's support for                         
  expanding natural gas vehicle use in Alaska.                                 
                                                                               
  CHUCK LANDERS, MEMBER, ANCHORAGE ASSEMBLY, testified via                     
  teleconference, and said the Anchorage assembly recently                     
  passed a legislative program which addresses this type of                    
  issue.  In the program, the assembly has a grant request to                  
  buy a large compressor for approximately $500,000.  He                       
  stressed the assembly believes there is a need to get into                   
  the Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) program.  He said the                       
  assembly has one CNG car on line and added they are in the                   
  process of acquiring two CNG vans.                                           
                                                                               
  MR. LANDERS stated Anchorage has many mandates due to the                    
  Clean Air Act and carbon monoxide (CO) nonattainment status.                 
  The assembly believes the CNG program is one of the answers                  
  and is willing to take the necessary steps to convert their                  
  fleet to CNG.  The problem is the city has no fueling                        
  stations.  He noted the one fueling station is a privately                   
  owned fuel station and is of the old technology, delivering                  
  CNG at 2,400 pounds per square inch (PSI).  The latest                       
  equipment delivers CNG at 3,600 PSI.                                         
                                                                               
  MR. LANDERS stated HCR 12 addresses many of the issues                       
  facing Anchorage currently.  He added Anchorage is blessed                   
  in that it has natural gas and the CNG program is an                         
  excellent way for the city to use one of the state's                         
  resources.                                                                   
                                                                               
  RON COLLINS, PRINCIPLE ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER, FLEET SERVICE                 
  DIVISION, MUNICIPALITY OF ANCHORAGE, testified via                           
  teleconference, and stated CNG is the fuel of the future.                    
  He said the abundance of CNG in Alaska is well known.  The                   
  problems mentioned earlier are being dealt with on a daily                   
  basis.  He remarked it is inconvenient for a large fleet to                  
  deal with refueling problems currently existing in                           
  Anchorage.  He stressed a new refueling station would help                   
  achieve the CO attainment goals.   In addition to the two                    
  CNG vehicles the municipality is attempting to purchase                      
  currently, he said the municipality also has ten vehicles                    
  which were converted after their arrival in Anchorage and                    
  stressed those vehicles will work in the application.                        
                                                                               
  (CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted for the record that REPRESENTATIVE                  
  HUDSON joined the committee at 8:30 a.m.)                                    
                                                                               
  Number 118                                                                   
                                                                               
  JEFF OTTESEN, CHIEF, RIGHT-OF-WAY & ENVIRONMENT, DIVISION OF                 
  ENGINEERING AND OPERATIONS, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION AND                 
  PUBLIC FACILITIES, stated he is available for questions.                     
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JOHN DAVIES requested Mr. Ottesen to review                   
  the state's activity using CNG vehicles and asked if                         
  nonattainment areas such as Anchorage and Fairbanks will be                  
  helped through the use of CNG vehicles.                                      
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN replied the state is currently using six                         
  vehicles with CNG capability and he verified the refueling                   
  problems expressed earlier.  He said the technology is                       
  straightforward, with the capability of switching from CNG                   
  with the vehicle running to gasoline.  However, he stressed                  
  there is a need for refueling stations.  In regard to                        
  solving the CO problem, he stated CNG vehicles are much                      
  cleaner so they are a potential solution, particularly in                    
  the Anchorage and the greater Anchorage area where there is                  
  natural gas available.  He noted the only way to get natural                 
  gas to Fairbanks is by pipeline or by transporting liquid                    
  natural gas by tanker to Fairbanks where it can then be used                 
  in a compressed form.                                                        
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE PAT CARNEY asked what a compressor costs.                     
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN responded compressors range from the small home                  
  appliance which costs a few thousand dollars to a large-                     
  scale, three or four stage compressor providing rapid                        
  filling which costs $300,000 to $500,000.                                    
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CARNEY inquired if the large compressor is                    
  needed to reach the 3,600 PSI.                                               
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN said the large compressor refuels a large number                 
  of vehicles on a fast fuel basis, meaning a vehicle will be                  
  filled in three to four minutes.  He stated the slow fill                    
  appliance takes six to eight hours to fill.                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CARNEY said he is trying to determine the                     
  differences in pressure.                                                     
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN stated the storage systems in the vehicles                       
  themselves have moved up from 2,400 PSI, to 3,000 PSI, and                   
  currently the storage technologies are moving toward 3,600                   
  PSI.  He added there is also new technology being explored                   
  which relies upon carbon absorption, which goes back down to                 
  1,000 PSI, but relies upon an absorption principle as                        
  opposed to straight compression.  He stressed storage is                     
  clearly the problem and added that when the fuel is                          
  compressed, it is no where as dense as gasoline.                             
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BILL HUDSON asked how CNG is sold and asked                   
  if it is taxed.                                                              
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN replied CNG is not taxed as an automotive or                     
  motor fuel.  He said natural gas is sold on the basis of                     
  therms or BTU's, but added that most natural gas retail                      
  outlets are converting to what is considered a gallon                        
  equivalent.  He explained a price is received based on                       
  therms, but the price looked at is considered to be a gallon                 
  of fuel or its equivalent energy content.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 196                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if the tanks in a typical                        
  fueling station are large.                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN said the service stations he has seen in the                     
  lower 48 include a pressure station located somewhere on the                 
  property of a conventional gas station and the tanks are the                 
  size of the committee table but ten feet tall.  He stated                    
  the cascade principle is usually used meaning there are                      
  tanks at different pressures.                                                
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN stated he has a bill requiring the                  
  use of natural gas as a fuel.  He said an organization                       
  recently formed in Anchorage is looking at the wide scope of                 
  uses of natural gas including use in locomotives.  He felt                   
  one of the problems for widespread use of CNG is that it is                  
  compressed, except for home use.  If distance is to be                       
  achieved, liquified natural gas (LNG) will need to be used                   
  since it has more BTU's per gallon than gasoline.  For a                     
  given amount of energy derived from the thermal aspect of                    
  ombustion, further distances can be attained on LNG.                         
                                                                               
  Number 240                                                                   
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN noted that the state of New Mexico has just                      
  mandated the state's fleet be 100 percent converted to                       
  natural gas and at the same time, the public utility which                   
  sells natural gas is adding a small surcharge to all natural                 
  gas customers.  He stated the surcharge money is going to be                 
  used to install a network of over twenty refueling stations                  
  throughout the state and at the same time, will provide                      
  rebates to people who convert their vehicles to natural gas.                 
                                                                               
  Number 259                                                                   
                                                                               
  (CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS noted for the record that REPRESENTATIVES                 
  MULDER AND BUNDE joined the committee at 8:40 a.m. and 8:43                  
  a.m. respectively.)                                                          
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE ELDON MULDER stated the Chairman of the                       
  Anchorage Assembly had impressed upon him the need for an                    
  appropriation for their project.  They are hoping to put a                   
  pump in Anchorage which will be a cooperative effort between                 
  the municipality, MAPCO and another entity.  He felt HCR 12                  
  is worthwhile as there are few industries in Alaska with                     
  value added products and this is one of them.                                
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CARNEY asked if LNG is the way of the future,                 
  will CNG compressors eventually become obsolete.                             
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN replied the industry is still focusing on CNG                    
  except for certain major industrial users.  Recently, the                    
  Seattle Metropolitan bus fleet opted to go to LNG as opposed                 
  to CNG.  He added that the two fuels are identical and said                  
  the only difference between the two is storage.  He said CNG                 
  is the general method being sold currently.  LNG is best for                 
  locomotives, large diesel trucks which are going to be                       
  converted, or bus systems and is a specialized niche at this                 
  time.                                                                        
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CARNEY asked if the Japanese are using LNG in                 
  ordinary vehicles.                                                           
                                                                               
  MR. OTTESEN replied that worldwide, the U.S. is behind in                    
  the use of all types of alternative fuels and in particular,                 
  natural gas which is used widely.  The Japanese are using                    
  LNG for heavy industrial uses, but CNG seems to be the                       
  preferred method.  He added that LNG is stored in a vacuum                   
  insulated tank which keeps it cold. If a vehicle is being                    
  used daily, LNG is fine but if the vehicle is not used                       
  daily, a certain amount of boil off has to take place in the                 
  tank and that fuel is wasted to the atmosphere.                              
                                                                               
  Number 320                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES made a MOTION to ADOPT the                    
  Oil and Gas committee substitute for HCR 12.                                 
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections.                        
  Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED.                                             
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES made a MOTION to MOVE CSHCR 12(O&G) out                 
  of committee with INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS.                                
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if the additional WHEREAS clause                 
  recommended by the Department of Transportation (DOT) is                     
  embodied in the committee substitute.                                        
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN stated the position paper had                     
  been submitted last year and the first recommended WHEREAS                   
  clause was not included based on discussions held in the Oil                 
  and Gas Committee.                                                           
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if it was the resolution                         
  sponsor's view that the first WHEREAS clause would enhance                   
  the resolution.                                                              
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE FINKELSTEIN said there had been a lot of                      
  discussion on the uses of LNG versus CNG and it was felt the                 
  first WHEREAS clause was not needed.                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN WILLIAMS asked if there were any objections to the                  
  motion.  Hearing none, the MOTION PASSED.                                    
                                                                               
  Number 370                                                                   

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