Legislature(1997 - 1998)

02/05/1998 10:08 AM House O&G

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
HB 274 - OIL & GAS CONSERVATION COMMISSION                                     
                                                                               
Number 0056                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS announced the committee would hear HB 274,                    
"An Act relating to the qualifications of the members of the Alaska            
Oil and Gas Conservation Commission; and providing for an effective            
date."                                                                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE made a motion to move HB 274 before the               
committee.                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS asked Representative Bunde if he was referring to             
the proposed CSHB 274.                                                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE replied yes, CSHB 274, 0-LS0998\H, 12/5/97.               
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS asked Representative Green or his staff member                
Jeff Logan, to present the bill.                                               
                                                                               
JEFF LOGAN, Legislative Assistant to Representative Green, stated              
that Alaskans are blessed with resources on a world class scale of             
hydro-carbons, oil and gas.  These resources are owned by the                  
people of Alaska.  He stated that there is a demand for these                  
hydro-carbons, therefore Alaska has entered into agreements with               
the companies that produce the hydro-carbons to bring oil and gas              
to the surface and put it into the pipeline.  He explained that the            
companies have sophisticated technology and processes to implement             
the activities on Alaska's behalf with Alaska's agreement.  He                 
stated that relationships entered into with the companies are                  
beneficial to both parties.  He quoted President Reagan to say.                
"Trust but verify."  He stated that the legislature needs to verify            
what the companies are doing.  He pointed out that the legislature             
is empowered by the people to manage and conserve the resources.               
The Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission (AOGCC) has been                
empowered to oversee these duties.  The professional qualifications            
of the people empowered on the AOGCC are important.  The bill will             
address these qualifications.                                                  
                                                                               
Number 0344                                                                    
                                                                               
MR. LOGAN stated that up until now there has not been a need for               
this bill.  He referred to the committee members' packets and                  
stated they contained the history of the commission and appointed              
people.  He explained that up until now the commission had always              
had a qualified petroleum engineer.  The proposed committee                    
substitute to HB 274 will clarify the qualifications needed to hold            
the petroleum engineer's position on the AOGCC.                                
                                                                               
Number 0475                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that he wanted to stress that since                
before statehood there has always been a registered petroleum                  
engineer on the commission or on the commission's  predecessors.               
Every governor until the present governor has seen fit to have a               
registered petroleum engineer in that position because it is in the            
statute.  He stated that the Governor has sought to bring in a                 
mechanical engineer to fill this position.  He stated that there is            
an absolute need for someone well versed in hydro-carbon                       
production, development and containment.  He explained that the two            
prime functions of the AOGCC, albeit police power to force                     
unitization for conservation, is the correlative right protection              
and the prevention of waste.                                                   
                                                                               
Number 0596                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asserted that a mechanical or civil engineers             
do not understand what correlative rights or prevention of rights              
in a sub-surface reservoir mean.  Therefore, the completion                    
techniques, the operations of the fields and maximum efficient                 
rates are unknown to people who have not had to work with them.  He            
stated that it is his intent to be sure that the Governor and his              
staff understand the importance of the technical expertise, by                 
making the statute is so clear that it cannot be avoided.                      
                                                                               
Number 0690                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that the Governor's staff did not say              
why they had relieved the current holder of that position and his              
predecessor; as they were capable of holding the position under the            
two prior governors.  He said, "But now, all of a sudden, this is              
a broadened political horizon position rather than a technical                 
position."  He asserted that the AOGCC is a technical commission               
and it should be maintained that way.  He indicated that they have             
been dealing with the industry because the industry feels that by              
trying to stay technical, the field may have been narrowed.  The               
industry would like to broaden the field so that there are                     
qualified people without necessarily having to be registered in the            
state of Alaska.  He stated that he has a set of guidelines from               
the industry to use, which the need for creates another committee              
substitute.  He asked for a few days time in order to incorporate              
the guidelines into the committee substitute.  He indicated that it            
would alleviate some of the comments made by Attorney General                  
Robert Mintz.                                                                  
                                                                               
Number 0784                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE stated that he is realizing that there are            
some serious differences between, mechanical, civil and petroleum              
engineers.                                                                     
                                                                               
Number 0825                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE NORMAN ROKEBERG asked Representative Green if he is             
a registered engineer in the state of Alaska.                                  
                                                                               
Number 0835                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN responded that he is not.  He informed the                
committee that he is a registered engineer in two states but not in            
the state of Alaska.  He stated that he would not qualify under the            
current version of the bill.                                                   
                                                                               
Number 0843                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if he, at one time, served as the                
director of the Division of Oil and Gas.                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN responded that he served as director of the               
Division of Minerals and Energy Management which was the forerunner            
of the current Oil and Gas Commission and the Bureau of Mines as               
they were combined at that time.                                               
                                                                               
Number 0874                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that he wanted to establish                     
Representative Green's credentials for carrying the bill.  He asked            
Representative Green if he cared to elaborate any more.                        
                                                                               
Number 0885                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that at one time he worked for what is             
now the AOGCC doing reservoir modeling.  He stated that it was back            
in the late 70s when there was a concern of what might happen with             
the Prudhoe Bay gas cap.  He explained that he did a three                     
dimensional reservoir simulator model to determine various off                 
takes of gas development modes.                                                
                                                                               
Number 0927                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that there are some comments in the             
fiscal note and a reference to the comments in a letter from the               
assistant attorney general, regarding salary levels.  He asked if              
the existing AOGCC salary compensation level makes any distinctions            
between the three members in regards to compensation.                          
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN responded that the chairman has a slightly                
higher compensation which would not necessarily be the petroleum               
engineer's compensation.                                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if there was a distinction based on              
the professional qualifications of the members.                                
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN responded that there was not.  He stated that             
prior to the current chairman, a registered petroleum engineer was             
always the chairman before but it was not a requirement.                       
                                                                               
Number 0981                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that he had been perusing the Alaska            
statutes in regards to engineering.  He pointed out that he did not            
see a distinction other than in the practice of engineering itself.            
He asked how, in the list of architects, engineers, land surveyors             
and landscape architects, a distinction is made between types of               
engineers.                                                                     
                                                                               
Number 1029                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that in the registration process the               
examinations are significantly different.  He stated that they all             
take an engineering training exam first, unless they already have              
the experience from another state, which states that the person                
understands basic engineering principles.  The next test is a                  
specific examination in the particular field that they are trying              
to register in.                                                                
                                                                               
Number 1062                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that in the proposed committee                  
substitute for HB 274 there are references on page 2 to the                    
accreditation by the Engineering Accreditation Commission and the              
Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology and he asked for            
an explanation.                                                                
                                                                               
Number 0174                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that it is a national accreditation                
board that says that certain schools meet the qualifications both              
with the number of Doctorate professors they have and the courses              
that they teach and require for a degree in that particular field.             
                                                                               
Number 1090                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if that means that anyone who has                
the academic background under this method of accreditation, has                
received education in that particular discipline within the field              
of engineering.                                                                
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that it would indicate that the school             
was  accredited in that particular department and that person would            
have received a degree from them. He clarified that the                        
accreditation goes to the college or the university rather than the            
individual.  A graduate meets the requirement of the accredited                
school.                                                                        
                                                                               
Number 1138                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG informed the committee that there is no                
definition in Alaska Statutes on petroleum engineering, only on                
engineering generically and asked if that is correct.                          
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied that is correct.                                  
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that this bill would take care of               
that by defining what a petroleum engineer is.                                 
                                                                               
Number 1165                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that this version of the bill intends              
to state that an engineer would have to be proficient in a litany              
of things to be qualified for the job.                                         
                                                                               
Number 1178                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred to the issue on incumbency and how            
it would work.  He asked if he was going to address that in the                
committee substitute and if it would have any impact on the                    
existing incumbency.                                                           
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN responded that it should not have an impact on            
the existing incumbency with one respect, those who have been                  
accepted by the legislature.                                                   
                                                                               
Number 1222                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if there has been any legal action               
taken in regards to the disagreement between the branches of                   
government.                                                                    
                                                                               
Number 1237                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN responded that there has not been any legal               
action taken between the two branches of government and there has              
not been any action taken against the state for not fulfilling its             
obligation under statute.                                                      
                                                                               
Number 1253                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked what happens.                                    
                                                                               
Number 1260                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied what would continue to happen because             
of the propensity of the Governor to continue to nominate people               
who are unqualified along the legislature's non-confirmation of                
those appointments; would result in a two commissioner membership.             
He stated that it would be a bad situation because there would not             
be a deciding vote.  In effect the commission would be in limbo and            
should there be a disaster the state could be vulnerable.  He                  
stated that he is trying to fix this situation with this bill.                 
                                                                               
Number 1319                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS referred to the last year's meeting on                        
confirmations where the current person was confirmed.  He stated               
that it was his understanding that they confirmed him as being                 
qualified to the seat that the legislature appointed him to.  He               
explained that he understood that it is the Governor's prerogative             
to say which seat was filled but it was made clear at the hearing              
that he was to fill the at-large seat.  He stated that he was                  
qualified for this seat and that he wanted to correct                          
Representative Green on that point.                                            
                                                                               
Number 1371                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that he thought he corrected himself in            
that the legislature confirmed the non-technical seat and not the              
engineering seat.                                                              
                                                                               
Number 1383                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN stated that he is supportive of the                  
proposed committee substitute to HB 274, as he shares the same                 
concerns as Representative Green.  The AOGCC is one of the most                
important commissions as they are the policemen of the oil fields.             
He asserted that they need to have expertise.  He explained that               
during the confirmation hearings, he asked the person presently in             
the technical seat of the commission if he would characterize his              
education and background to be of a petroleum engineer.                        
Representative Ogan asked Representative Green if he remembered                
what his response was.                                                         
                                                                               
Number 1428                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that in essence the response was no, he            
did not consider himself qualified.                                            
                                                                               
Number 1440                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS stated that he would like to stick to the bill. He            
asked Representative Green if the committee could expect another               
committee substitute and stated that the committee could then hear             
this bill next week.                                                           
                                                                               
Number 1465                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that with all due respect to the                    
gentleman in question he thought it was relevant to bring it up                
because that is the issue.  He asked if the bill has a House                   
Resources Standing Committee referral.                                         
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS responded that it did.                                        
                                                                               
Number 1509                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked what areas the committee substitute              
is going to be looking at.                                                     
                                                                               
Number 1575                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN replied that it would modify the stringent                
requirements of being a registered petroleum engineer in the state             
of Alaska.  He stated that by requiring there to be a registered               
engineer there then would be no question of the requirements.                  
The committee substitute would require that the person be qualified            
to perform subsurface work and be a graduate engineer of an                    
accredited  college.  He informed the committee that the person                
could be a mechanical or chemical engineer by education with ten               
years of work experience in subsurface activities, he would                    
qualify.  The committee substitute will increase the prior work                
experience from five to ten years.                                             
                                                                               
Number 1595                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred to the issue of the talent pool               
salary level and asked if that was going to be addressed in the                
committee substitute.                                                          
                                                                               
Number 1617                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that will fall out because the pool                
will be expanded, as there no longer would be the requirement to be            
a petroleum engineer in the state of Alaska.  He stated that is                
what the attorney general was complaining about, as there are too              
few of petroleum engineers in the state.                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that because the expiration of the              
chairman's term is coming up, the geology seat will be vacant, so              
there could be the possibility that the commission may be in a                 
position of not having a person with any subsurface petroleum                  
knowledge.                                                                     
                                                                               
Number 1663                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN stated that is absolutely true.                           
                                                                               
Number 1680                                                                    
                                                                               
CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Occupational Licensing, Department of             
Commerce and Economic Development, stated that she would like to               
talk about the licensing of engineers.  She stated that the                    
division licenses engineers in conjunction with the Board of                   
Registration of Architects, Engineers and Land Surveyors.  She                 
referred to Assistant Attorney General Mintz's memorandum from the             
Department of Law.  She stated that there are 71 licensed petroleum            
engineers of whom, 35 have Alaska mailing addresses and 25 of those            
have a B.S. or M.S. in petroleum engineering from an accredited                
school.  She continued that by law the appointees are required to              
be registered voters in Alaska.  If the pool was to be broadened               
the non-residents would have to establish residency for thirty days            
and register to vote in order to be appointed.  She pointed out                
that Alaskan hire has been a concern to Alaskans.                              
                                                                               
Number 1789                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. REARDON stated that the bill requires five years professional              
experience.  She indicated that she was not sure if that meant                 
experience after having obtained a petroleum engineering license or            
that they might qualify for the professional experience prior to               
obtaining the license.  She explained that if it meant five years              
of having held a petroleum engineer's license, of the 25 Alaska                
licenses only nine have held the license for five years or more.               
She added that it may be that the others had held a license in                 
another state working in Alaska based on their credentials and                 
therefore would have the five years of holding a petroleum                     
engineer's license.                                                            
                                                                               
Number 1831                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. REARDON referred to Representative Rokeberg's question of where            
the petroleum engineer qualifications were set out because they are            
not in statute.  She informed him that they are in the regulations             
and the bill does refer to being qualified by statutory                        
regulations.  She stated that in order to be an Alaska licensed                
petroleum engineer, in addition, to passing the petroleum engineer             
examine, the person has to have a responsible charge of experience             
working under a licensed petroleum engineer.                                   
                                                                               
Number 1863                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked for what period of time is the person            
required to work under the responsible charge supervision.                     
                                                                               
MS. REARDON replied that she thought it is for two years but would             
get back to the committee on that.                                             
                                                                               
Number 1879                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if she thought the expansion of the              
hiring pool would eliminate some of her concerns.                              
                                                                               
Number 1895                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. REARDON stated that it sounds like one would not have to                   
specifically have a petroleum's engineer's license specifically but            
one could have several other specialities of engineering licenses              
along with petroleum work experience.  She declared that she would             
not be able to say how many of Alaska's other types of engineers               
would have that type of experience.                                            
                                                                               
Number 1905                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if she would be willing to work with             
the bill sponsors on the area of work experience.                              
                                                                               
Number 1923                                                                    
                                                                               
MS. REARDON stated that she would be happy to look in the files                
about the types of experience that people have had.                            
                                                                               
Number 1964                                                                    
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN HODGINS stated that it was his intent to hold the proposed            
committee substitute on HB 274 until the next meeting in order to              
look at the new committee substitute.                                          
                                                                               

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