Legislature(2005 - 2006)CAPITOL 17

02/01/2006 03:15 PM House LABOR & COMMERCE


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+= HB 274 PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 274(L&C) Out of Committee
+= HB 242 UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE FUND & TAXES TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 242(L&C) Out of Committee
*+ HB 331 UNDERAGE MILITARY ON LICENSED PREMISES TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHB 331(L&C) Out of Committee
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
HB 274-PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:31:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ANDERSON  announced that the  next order of  business would                                                               
be SPONSOR  SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE  BILL NO. 274, "An  Act relating                                                               
to the  practice of  accounting; and  providing for  an effective                                                               
date."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MIKE HAWKER,  Alaska State  Legislature, speaking                                                               
as the  sponsor of  SSHB 274, informed  the committee  that after                                                               
reviewing  the   issues  discussed  at  the   prior  hearing,  he                                                               
determined that  an amendment  was in order.   He  explained that                                                               
the  amendment would  address the  "prepare" and  "compile" issue                                                               
and  leaves  intact  all   existing  statutory  authority,  while                                                               
providing some safe harbor language in which an independent                                                                     
accountant can seek refuge.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:32:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG moved that the committee adopt Amendment                                                                
1, which read [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 27, lines 9 - 20:                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
          Delete "the following disclaimer language when                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     used  by  nonlicensees  in  connection  with  financial                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     statements:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
          (A) "I (we) have prepared the accompanying                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     (financial statements) of (name  of entity) as of (time                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     period) for the (period)  then ended. This presentation                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     is  limited  to preparing,  in  the  form of  financial                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     statements, information  that is the  representation of                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     management (owners)."; or                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
          (B) "I (we) have not audited or reviewed the                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     accompanying financial statements  and, accordingly, do                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     not express an  opinion or any other  form of assurance                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     on them." [COMPILATION  OF FINANCIAL STATEMENT LANGUAGE                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     THAT  DOES NOT  EXPRESS OR  IMPLY ASSURANCE  OR SPECIAL                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     KNOWLEDGE OR COMPETENCE.] "                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Insert                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
          "(A) a compilation of financial statement                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     language that  does not express  or imply  assurance or                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     special knowledge or competence; or                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
          "(B) the following disclaimer language when used                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     by   nonlicensees   in    connection   with   financial                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     statements:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
          (i) "I (we) have prepared the accompanying                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     (financial statements) of (name  of entity) as of (time                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     period) for the (period)  then ended. This presentation                                                                
       is limited to preparing, in the form of financial                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     statements, information that is the representation of                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     management (owners)."; or                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
          (ii) "I (we) have not audited or reviewed the                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     accompanying financial statements and, accordingly, do                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     not express an opinion or any other form of assurance                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     on them." [.]"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:33:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ANDERSON,  upon  determining  there  were  no  objections,                                                               
announced that Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:33:41 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  moved that the committee  adopt Amendment 2,                                                               
as follows:                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 3, line 24, following "regulations":                                                                                  
          Insert "per the procedures under negotiated                                                                           
     regulation making"                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ANDERSON objected for discussion purposes.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN  explained that although the  Board of Public                                                               
Accountancy   doesn't   license  independent   accountants,   the                                                               
decisions the board  makes does have a significant  impact on the                                                               
profession.     Representative  Lynn  expressed  his   desire  to                                                               
maintain   the  [current]   balance   between  Certified   Public                                                               
Accountants (CPAs) and independent accountants.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   HAWKER  stated   that  Amendment   2  adds   the                                                               
requirement of  additional supplemental regulatory  procedures in                                                               
the regulatory authority  for the Board of  Public Accountancy to                                                               
address  the   attest  function.    Since   the  regulations  are                                                               
addressing  the  attest  function,  there is  no  affect  on  the                                                               
independent accountants.   He  highlighted that  SSHB 274  has an                                                               
immediate effective date in regard  to the authority to  prepared                                                               
the   regulations,  but   a  delayed   effective  date   for  the                                                               
legislation.     Therefore,  there's   an  opportunity   for  the                                                               
regulatory  process to  go forward.    The negotiated  regulation                                                               
making  is   really  a  supplemental   procedure,  and   in  this                                                               
particular  situation  something  is  being  regulated  that  has                                                               
nothing  to  do  with independent  accountants.    Representative                                                               
Hawker opined  that it's merely an  additional regulatory burden,                                                               
an   additional  cost,   an  additional   time,  and   additional                                                               
inefficiency in governing.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ANDERSON referred to a  letter from Max Mertz, Chairperson,                                                               
Alaska  Board  of Public  Accountancy,  dated  January 26,  2006,                                                               
which related  the Alaska Board  of Public  Accountancy's support                                                               
of SSHB 274.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:38:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX inquired  as to what the  language "per the                                                               
procedures under negotiated regulation making" means.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:39:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DON  BREMNER,  Member, Board  of  Director,  Yak-Tat Kwaan,  Inc.                                                               
(YKI),  said that  SSHB 274  has been  a long  time coming.   The                                                               
legislation draws a clear line  between qualified and unqualified                                                               
accountants   and   accounting   services.     Furthermore,   the                                                               
legislation addresses accountability and  liability.  Mr. Bremner                                                               
recalled   his  past   experience   as  an   officer  of   Native                                                               
corporations   and  the   scams  and   schemes  that   have  cost                                                               
corporations large sums of money.   He highlighted a Ponzi scheme                                                               
that cost one Native corporation  over $7 million.  Therefore, at                                                               
least  this  legislation raises  the  standards  such that  those                                                               
presenting themselves  as accountants  or CPAs  are who  they say                                                               
they are.   Mr. Bremner concluded  by relating his hope  that the                                                               
committee forwards this legislation.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ANDERSON  turned attention  to Amendment 2,  which attempts                                                               
to discern the difference between CPAs and non-CPAs.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BREMNER, in  further response  to Chair  Anderson, specified                                                               
that he supports SSHB 274 with Amendment 1.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:42:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JEANNETTE   JAMES,   Member,   Alaska  Society   of   Independent                                                               
Accountants (ASIA),  referred to  the language  on page  3, lines                                                               
25-26,  which   says:    "the   board  may  adopt   the  criteria                                                               
established by a  nationally recognized professional organization                                                               
for  accountants."    The   aforementioned  doesn't  specify  the                                                               
organizations  to which  it applies,  and therefore  there is  no                                                               
knowledge  with  regard  to  what   it  may  do  in  relation  to                                                               
independent  accountants.   Ms.  James  then  explained that  the                                                               
negotiated regulation making is  a complicated system that allows                                                               
the  discussion of  issues before  the  regulations are  drafted.                                                               
Although she understood, after talking  to the sponsor, that SSHB
274 refers strictly  to CPAs, she opined that it  is important to                                                               
place it on  the record.  Ms. James emphasized  that she wants to                                                               
be sure  that SSHB 274 doesn't  impact [independent accountants],                                                               
which seems to  be partially addressed in Amendment  1.  However,                                                               
[independent   accountants]   don't   know  what   the   [attest]                                                               
regulations [of nationally  recognized professional organizations                                                               
for accountants] are and what effect they will have.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:45:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LEDOUX  inquired as to  whether, on page  3, after                                                               
line  23,   inserting  the  language   "the  board   shall  adopt                                                               
regulations with respect to  certified public accountants" rather                                                               
than the  language proposed  in Amendment  2 would  address these                                                               
concerns.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  JAMES characterized  Representative  LeDoux's suggestion  as                                                               
extra language, and said that  the aforementioned discussion will                                                               
provide  some  strength  with  regard to  the  intent  that  this                                                               
applies only to CPAs.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:47:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT  recalled that the sponsor's  opening remarks                                                               
clarified  that   this  legislation  only  regulates   CPAs,  and                                                               
therefore  he felt  the issues  [of the  independent accountants]                                                               
are covered.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:47:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG highlighted  that SSHB  274 falls  under                                                               
Title 8 and  the Division of Occupational Licensing.   He pointed                                                               
out that  Section 2 gives  the [Board of Public  Accountancy] the                                                               
ability to  regulate the profession  of accountancy.  He  said he                                                               
wasn't sure  that this  legislation speaks  only to  CPAs because                                                               
part  of  the  division's  procedure  is  to  ensure  that  those                                                               
practicing are qualified  and meet the standards.   Therefore, he                                                               
opined that  this legislation does  impact those who  aren't CPAs                                                               
and  thus  redrafting  the  legislation  such  that  it  excluded                                                               
[independent accountants] would be "skating on thin ice."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
3:50:30 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  JAMES, in  response  to an  earlier  question regarding  the                                                               
definition  of  "negotiated  regulation making",  explained  that                                                               
[negotiated   regulation   making]    simply   means   that   the                                                               
stakeholders are  called together to determine  what the language                                                               
in  the  regulation  should  say.   When  the  aforementioned  is                                                               
completed,  it moves  through the  regular process  of regulation                                                               
making.   Although it may  be a lengthier process,  usually there                                                               
is no debate that results [after the regulations are in place].                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROKEBERG  interjected  that the  negotiated  rule                                                               
making process  works very well  in the natural  resources arena,                                                               
particularly when there are a large number of stakeholders.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  LEDOUX questioned  why the  regulations regarding                                                               
attest functions  only applying to  CPAs wouldn't be  stronger if                                                               
that was  specified in statute  rather than merely leaving  it to                                                               
be ascertained from the testimony today.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:52:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ANDERSON inquired  as to  what/who is  regulated now.   He                                                               
also inquired  as to how someone  would grieve to the  state over                                                               
mistakes  made by  an [independent  accountant/bookkeeper] versus                                                               
mistakes made by a CPA.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:54:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. JAMES pointed  out that there is a court  system.  She opined                                                               
that  the  public  is  somewhat protected  from  those  who  make                                                               
mistakes.   She  reiterated  that she  is  comfortable with  this                                                               
conversation   on   the   record   that   indicates   that   this                                                               
[legislation]  speaks  only   to  CPAs  and  has   no  effect  on                                                               
independent accountants.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:55:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ANDERSON recalled Representative  Rokeberg's question as to                                                               
whether SSHB 274  with Amendment 1 is sufficient  and accurate in                                                               
relaying  that the  legislation doesn't  impact those  performing                                                               
accounting activities who aren't CPAs.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:56:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  pointed out that Section  7 only relates                                                               
to rule  making as  it relates  to attest  functions.   "This has                                                               
nothing to  do with the  overall rule-making ability which  is in                                                               
the catch-all  portion of  Title 8,  which allows  any regulatory                                                               
rulemaking by  any occupational licensing board."   Therefore, he                                                               
opined that [Section 7] isn't a  way to allow the Board of Public                                                               
Accountancy to redraw the rules because they already exist.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  ANDERSON inquired  as to  whether Representative  Rokeberg                                                               
feels that  Amendment 2  is in opposition  to the  legislation or                                                               
duplicative and not necessary.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG opined that  it's not appropriate in this                                                               
section and he  said he wasn't sure that it  was appropriate in a                                                               
new section  either because it could  "break the mold of  all the                                                               
other occupational licensing."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   ANDERSON  expressed   his  concern   that  it   might  be                                                               
precedential.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE LYNN asked if Ms.  James would be more comfortable                                                               
with  Amendment  2  as  it's  written or  with  the  language  as                                                               
Representative LeDoux suggested.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. JAMES reiterated  that she feels comfortable  with the intent                                                               
[of SSHB  274 unamended]  being placed on  the record.   However,                                                               
she noted that there are  other [independent accountants] who may                                                               
hold different views.  Ms.  James specified that she would prefer                                                               
the language  in Section 7  to refer  to CPAs rather  than merely                                                               
"accountants."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:59:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT  inquired as  to how  Ms. James  would define                                                               
"persons professing special competence in accountancy."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. JAMES answered that one would have  to pass a test.  In fact,                                                               
members  of  the National  Society  of  Accountants can  take  an                                                               
examination   to   be   certified   as  an   accountant.      The                                                               
aforementioned is  different than  a certified  public accountant                                                               
which  is a  license  from  the state  and  for  which there  are                                                               
different rules.   She opined  that the current system  in Alaska                                                               
works for  this state, and  therefore she expressed  concern with                                                               
the   reference  to   the   nationally  recognized   professional                                                               
organizations because it treats all states the same.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOTT, referring  to Section  2, pointed  out that                                                               
the purpose is  to regulate those who have  special competence in                                                               
accounting,  which he  associated with  a  CPA.   He related  his                                                               
understanding that there are three  different layers of work that                                                               
a CPA can  perform and a public accountant can  enter the top two                                                               
layers.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   LEDOUX   asked   then   if   anyone   can   call                                                               
himself/herself an accountant in Alaska.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. JAMES replied yes.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:03:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MICHAEL  CURNOW, Independent  Accountant, informed  the committee                                                               
that  he  is  a member  of  ASIA  and  a  past president  of  the                                                               
organization.   He  said that  Amendment 1  addressed one  of his                                                               
[concerns].    However, the  legislation,  even  in the  face  of                                                               
today's  testimony,  impacts  him as  an  independent  accountant                                                               
because  the   definition  of  attest  was   changed  to  include                                                               
compilations, which he said he  does occasionally.  Therefore, he                                                               
requested  the  negotiated  regulatory  process,  which  he  said                                                               
provides him with  more comfort.  Mr. Curnow noted  that he likes                                                               
the rest of the legislation and hopes that it passes.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:05:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT  asked how Mr.  Curnow would  define "persons                                                               
professing special competence in accountancy."   He also asked if                                                               
Mr. Curnow would place himself in that group.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. CURNOW  answered that  he would not  include himself  in that                                                               
category because that [refers] to a  CPA who has received a state                                                               
license.   Mr. Curnow explained  that he holds a  federal license                                                               
and his work concentrates on taxes.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:06:40 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BERNADETTE KOPPY,  Vice President, Alaska Society  of Independent                                                               
Accountants  (ASIA), informed  the committee  that ASIA  supports                                                               
Amendments  1 and  2 to  SSHB 274.   Ms.  Koppy opined  that this                                                               
legislation [as  amended] will  allow independent  accountants to                                                               
continue doing business in the manner in which they do now.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:08:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ELAINE   WILLIAMSON,   Appointee,    Alaska   Board   of   Public                                                               
Accountancy, stated  her personal  support for  SSHB 274  and its                                                               
amendments.   She opined  that conforming  the state  statutes to                                                               
the Uniform Accountancy Act will  benefit both the profession and                                                               
the Alaska  Board of Public  Accountancy.  Ms.  Williamson opined                                                               
that  the reciprocity  afforded [by  adopting the  aforementioned                                                               
Act by  reference] is beneficial  in that  it will allow  CPAs to                                                               
practice in  multiple jurisdictions without having  to conform to                                                               
multiple laws  and requirements.   Furthermore,  this legislation                                                               
allows  the   Alaska  Board  of   Public  Accountancy   to  amend                                                               
regulations as  the national  organizations change  in accordance                                                               
with the Uniform Accountancy Act.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
4:09:00 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked if Ms.  Williamson, who is a CPA, would                                                               
consider herself a person with special competence in accounting.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. WILLIAMSON replied yes.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:09:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR ANDERSON, upon  determining no one else  wished to testify,                                                               
announced that the public testimony was closed.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. WILLIAMSON,  in response to  questions regarding  whether she                                                               
supported Amendment 2, expressed  her support for the legislation                                                               
and moving  forward with  regard to  conformity with  the Uniform                                                               
Accountancy Act.   Therefore, she  stated that she is  in support                                                               
of getting the legislation passed.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAWKER, in  response to  Chair Anderson,  related                                                               
his opinion that Amendment 2 is not necessary.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT agreed that  Amendment 2 isn't necessary; and                                                               
therefore he said that he would oppose Amendment 2.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   LYNN  opined   that   SSHB   274  is   important                                                               
legislation.  However,  he said he would like to  err on the side                                                               
of caution  with Amendment  2, which he  didn't believe  does any                                                               
harm.   Therefore,  he said  he  maintained his  motion to  adopt                                                               
Amendment 2.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  noted his agreement  with Representative                                                               
Rokeberg's earlier comment that  this merely provides independent                                                               
accountants a  seat at the  table to know what  regulations might                                                               
result.   He opined that [Amendment  2] doesn't do any  harm, and                                                               
therefore he said he was in favor of Amendment 2.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG  reiterated his  belief that  Amendment 2                                                               
isn't necessary.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:15:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
A roll  call vote was  taken.  Representatives  Lynn, Guttenberg,                                                               
and  Crawford voted  in favor  of  the adoption  of Amendment  2.                                                               
Representatives  LeDoux,  Kott,   Rokeberg,  and  Anderson  voted                                                               
against it.   Therefore, Amendment  2 failed  to be adopted  by a                                                               
vote of 3-4.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT moved to report  SSHB 274, as amended, out of                                                               
committee  with individual  recommendations and  the accompanying                                                               
fiscal  notes.   There being  no objection,  CSSSHB 274(L&C)  was                                                               
reported from the House Labor and Commerce Standing Committee.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
The committee took a brief at-ease at 4:17 p.m.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                

Document Name Date/Time Subjects