Legislature(2001 - 2002)

03/04/2002 03:20 PM L&C

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 472-PAWNBROKERS/SECONDHAND DEALERS                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI announced  that the next order  of business would                                                               
be HOUSE  BILL NO. 472, "An  Act relating to persons  who buy and                                                               
sell secondhand  articles and to  certain persons who  lend money                                                               
on secondhand articles."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 379                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
LAURA  ACHEE, Staff  to Representative  Joe  Green, Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature,  introduced  HB  472  on  behalf  of  Representative                                                               
Green,  sponsor.   She  said  currently  in the  Municipality  of                                                               
Anchorage, pawnshops  and other types of  secondhand dealers such                                                               
as  fur  shops  are  required  to  make  weekly  reports  to  the                                                               
Anchorage Police Department  (APD) of all of the  items that they                                                               
receive and  sell as pawned  goods.   The reasoning is  it allows                                                               
the police  department to match  up these records of  items taken                                                               
in against  records of  stolen goods, in  an effort  to hopefully                                                               
return those  stolen goods to  the original owners.   This system                                                               
has been working well in Anchorage.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 385                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE  explained that  this  law  is limited  to  Anchorage.                                                               
State statute  now requires all  pawnshops across Alaska  to keep                                                               
very  detailed  records and  that  the  records  be open  to  law                                                               
enforcement.  Unfortunately, law  enforcement agencies don't have                                                               
the  manpower to  send someone  around to  go through  the record                                                               
books of each  pawnshop every time there is a  record of a stolen                                                               
item.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  said HB 472  is modeled after the  Anchorage municipal                                                               
code  and would  require  that pawnshops  across  the state  make                                                               
weekly reports to either the  local municipal agency or the state                                                               
troopers  of items  taken in  during the  week.   The bill  makes                                                               
another  addition   to  the  state  statute   [relating  to]  the                                                               
municipal  code, requiring  a written  description of  the person                                                               
[who pawned  the item].  The  reasoning is that if  an item turns                                                               
up  stolen,  then  the  police have  a  physical  description  in                                                               
addition to the identification (ID)  of the person who pawned the                                                               
item.   She  said she  has  been working  with Detective  Cynthia                                                               
Bridges  from the  APD; Officer  Dan Hoffman  from the  Fairbanks                                                               
Police  Department;  and  Officer  Simon Brown,  usually  of  the                                                               
Alaska State Troopers  but who, as a [National]  Guard member, is                                                               
currently  on active  duty and  may  not be  able to  call in  to                                                               
testify.  She  said Detective Bridges and  Officer Hoffman should                                                               
be able to call in to testify.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 405                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MURKOWSKI  asked,  since  HB  472  is  modeled  after  the                                                               
Anchorage  municipal code,  whether  there are  forms already  in                                                               
place  for filling  in physical  descriptions.   She said  as she                                                               
understands  it,  the  form  is   provided  by  or  in  a  format                                                               
acceptable to the  police department or the state  troopers.  She                                                               
asked Ms.  Achee if  HB 472 is  trying to get  a uniform  type of                                                               
form or if it matters.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  deferred to Detective  Bridges to answer  the question                                                               
regarding what Anchorage is currently using as a form.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 417                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAYES commented  that if  this is  going to  be a                                                               
statewide program, each  part of the state might want  to do this                                                               
differently.   He asked,  "How do  we go about  doing that?   ...                                                               
Why is the state doing this in  general?  Why not do this through                                                               
municipalities?"  He explained that  one basic argument regarding                                                               
the [state]  budget is that perhaps  the state does more  than it                                                               
should in areas  the cities and municipalities should  cover.  He                                                               
asked why the state wants to get involved in doing this.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 423                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE answered that the statute  is worded such that it would                                                               
be up to  each individual municipality or the  state troopers, if                                                               
they have  jurisdiction, on what  they would  like to see  in the                                                               
report.  She  mentioned that although she doesn't  know the exact                                                               
date,  some officers  whom she's  been working  with are  getting                                                               
together  this month  [March]  to look  at  software that  tracks                                                               
incoming reports  - the idea  being that  if they could  agree on                                                               
one they  all liked,  they could  go back  to their  agencies and                                                               
have that software purchased, and could  all be on the same page.                                                               
She  remarked, "There's  a real  nice spirit  of cooperation  out                                                               
there among the different agencies."                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  responded to  Representative Hayes's  second question,                                                               
regarding  whether   there  is  "stepping  into   some  municipal                                                               
jurisdiction."    She  explained  that   if  an  item  stolen  in                                                               
Anchorage is  pawned in  Fairbanks, this  state law  would affect                                                               
the Anchorage resident as well  as the Fairbanks pawnbroker.  She                                                               
offered that this is why she thinks it is a statewide issue.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES  replied that if  it is stolen  property, no                                                               
matter what part of the state it  is in, he doesn't see why there                                                               
would be  a jurisdictional problem  with stolen  property, "which                                                               
is overarching  anyway."   He said  the City  of Fairbanks  has a                                                               
very tight budget,  so "the agencies have to pay  for whatever to                                                               
do this."   He suggested this  law would be an  unfunded mandate.                                                               
He offered  that he doesn't  know why there  needs to be  a state                                                               
law when it sounds as though municipalities already do this.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 446                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE replied that  the idea is to get the  items back to the                                                               
people to  whom they belong.   The  [City] of Fairbanks  does not                                                               
have  any similar  laws on  the books.   She  said she  would let                                                               
Officer Hoffman address  that issue because it  is something that                                                               
he is frustrated with.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE said  it is  her understanding,  after several  casual                                                               
conversations with Officer Brown  from the Alaska State Troopers,                                                               
that there  is actually traffic  from people who steal  things in                                                               
one part  of the state and  disposing of them in  another part to                                                               
help hide  their tracks.  Regarding  money, she said it  is a big                                                               
question and  that there is going  to be a cost  involved for the                                                               
in-taking agencies.  She stated:                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     I'm speaking for  Officer Brown, since I'm  not sure if                                                                    
     he's going to be able  to phone in today; he's actually                                                                    
     put a lot of thought and a  lot of work into this.  ...                                                                    
     He uses  welfare-to-work folks  to come  in and  do the                                                                    
     data entry, which provides job  experience for them and                                                                    
     low-cost data entry for the state.  So it's a win-win                                                                      
     situation.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 462                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER  brought attention  to the reference  in the                                                               
bill to keeping  track of transactions in a "book".   He asked if                                                               
a "book" is a journal or could also be a computer record.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  said the statute predates  HB 472, so now  it probably                                                               
is a  physical book or journal.   She mentioned that  a few shops                                                               
in the state  aren't computerized and probably keep  records in a                                                               
physical  book.    Many  shops  in  Anchorage  are  computerized,                                                               
however, and keep records on a computer.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER asked if the  shop owners who have access to                                                               
a computer are using a physical book also.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  responded that she doesn't  know.  She said  the issue                                                               
of  whether the  word  "book" needs  to be  used  in the  statute                                                               
anymore should be addressed.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 474                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI referred to AS 08.76.020(b), which read in part:                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Sec. 08.76.020.  Manner of recording entry.                                                                                
     The  entries shall  appear in  chronological order,  in                                                                    
     ink or indelible  pencil.  Blank lines may  not be left                                                                    
     between  entries.     Obliterations,   alterations,  or                                                                    
     erasures may not be made.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI remarked, "This is  something that we want to get                                                               
rid  of  because  it  would  prohibit  the  ability  to  use  the                                                               
software, which sounds like the real deal here."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 480                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  referred to her  classroom experience  while obtaining                                                               
her degree in biology.  She  recalled that in classes where there                                                               
were scientific  experiments, the students  had to follow  in the                                                               
model they  would later use if  they became researchers.   It was                                                               
very  important that  the notebook  not have  any pages  removed,                                                               
that it  be written in  indelible ink,  and that errors  be drawn                                                               
through  with a  line for  the  sake of  being able  to prove  no                                                               
[inappropriate] changes  had been  made to  the document.   While                                                               
she agreed  that requiring in statute  that a book be  used could                                                               
potentially  put  those businesses  that  only  use computers  in                                                               
jeopardy, she  emphasized that  the intent  is very  important to                                                               
maintain.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI  agreed with Ms. Achee's  point about maintaining                                                               
the intent.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 489                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE mentioned  that she  has  done a  little research  and                                                               
found  that  a  number  of software  programs  are  available  to                                                               
pawnshops.   She  said she  isn't  sure if  that software  allows                                                               
changes or  not, but  it probably  needs to  be researched.   She                                                               
added,  "I  think that  all  of  the  pawnbrokers in  Alaska  are                                                               
probably  very upstanding  people who  are  not going  to be  out                                                               
there ... taking in goods that  they're not recording.  But these                                                               
are things you need to be aware of could happen."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEYER addressed  the issue of the  definition of a                                                               
pawnshop.  He asked if a shop  like Play It Again Sports would be                                                               
considered a pawnshop.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE said that question has  been raised before and she does                                                               
not have an answer.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MEYER  inquired  about the  number  of  pawnshops                                                               
currently in Alaska.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE said  through an  informal search  she'd performed  on                                                               
Yahoo  Yellow  Pages,  she'd  found about  55  stores  under  the                                                               
category of pawnshops, half of which are in Anchorage.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 502                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HALCRO referred  to  page 1,  lines 12-14,  which                                                               
outlines  the  physical  description of  the  customer  including                                                               
"age, height,  weight, race, color  of hair, and color  of eyes".                                                               
He asked if this is currently being done in Anchorage.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE replied in the affirmative.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO asked if there  have been any concerns with                                                               
civil liberties being violated.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE said  she isn't  aware  of any  concerns in  Anchorage                                                               
regarding that.   She mentioned  a position held by  the National                                                               
Pawnbrokers  Association that  while it  agrees this  information                                                               
should be taken  down, it doesn't necessarily agree  it should be                                                               
transmitted  to the  police agencies  as  part of  the weekly  or                                                               
daily reports.   It argues  that while the information  should be                                                               
retained  on record,  it shouldn't  be transmitted  unless called                                                               
for by the police agency.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HALCRO  offered  that  the  National  Pawnbrokers                                                               
Association's position sounds  pretty reasonable.  If  there is a                                                               
hit in  the journal that indicates  there is a stolen  item and a                                                               
specific person brought  it in, the police could then  go back to                                                               
the pawnshop and  ask for a more detailed record  of the person's                                                               
physical description.  He asked if this has been considered.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE asked, "Changing the bill?"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO  restated the  aforementioned, which  is to                                                               
basically allow  the pawnbroker to keep  this information private                                                               
until the police  come back and say,  "We have a hit  on this one                                                               
item you've  logged into your  journal book.   We'd like  to know                                                               
more about the customer."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 521                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE said  as the  bill  is currently  written, it  doesn't                                                               
specify what  needs to be  in the  report to the  local agencies.                                                               
She  offered that  she thinks  right now  it would  be up  to the                                                               
individual  police agencies  what  information  they are  looking                                                               
for.  She said:                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     I  know  that  the  Anchorage  Police  Department  does                                                                    
     receive  that information  on  [its]  reports and  have                                                                    
     used  it in  reverse when  someone has  said, "Well,  I                                                                    
     think my  son stole something  from me."   Then they've                                                                    
     used it  in reverse and  looked for the item  by person                                                                    
     selling  or pawning  it, and  found items  that way  as                                                                    
     well.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 526                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI  referred to page  2, Section 3,  subsection (b),                                                               
where it does provide that  the information under AS 08.76.010 is                                                               
required.   She said it sounds  as though the summary  would have                                                               
to contain this information, although  it doesn't describe how it                                                               
would be formatted.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  addressed the  topic of  documenting the                                                               
physical description of  the customer, and offered  that it might                                                               
be  just as  good if  the pawnbrokers  were given  the choice  of                                                               
taking   a  video   recording  instead   of   writing  down   the                                                               
description.    He also  asked  if  it  is  required to  let  the                                                               
customer know  that his/her physical  description is  being taken                                                               
down.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE replied that if the committee  and the legislature as a                                                               
whole wanted to  include the option of a video,  she thought that                                                               
would probably be a good idea.   She said she isn't sure what the                                                               
rules are for  what's admissible in court and  how one identifies                                                               
someone in a case in which someone brought in stolen goods.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE,  in  response  to  Representative  Crawford's  second                                                               
question,  said since  she  has  not worked  in  a pawnshop,  she                                                               
doesn't   know   if   the  customer   is   aware   that   his/her                                                               
characteristics are being taken down.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  mentioned that the bill  doesn't specify                                                               
whether or  not the identification card  has to be a  picture ID.                                                               
He asked,  "Shouldn't we specify that  it should be a  picture ID                                                               
and not just a social security card?"                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 550                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  said it was a  good idea if the  committee was willing                                                               
to entertain that.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MURKOWSKI  offered  one  problem, that  in  some  smaller,                                                               
remote communities there  isn't access to picture IDs.   In these                                                               
communities,  airport security  has  been an  issue because  some                                                               
people  don't have  anything to  present  that establishes  their                                                               
true  identities.     She   mentioned  conversations   with  Mary                                                               
Marshburn, Director, Division of  Motor Vehicle (DMV), Department                                                               
of Administration, concerning how to get  DMV to go out and issue                                                               
state IDs or  something to give these folks some  kind of picture                                                               
ID.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  suggested that  if the  customer doesn't                                                               
have a  picture ID,  then the  pawnbroker could  take a  video in                                                               
lieu of the picture ID.  He  said, "I can't imagine a pawnshop in                                                               
the state that doesn't have a video camera in it, or ten."                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 565                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CYNTHIA  BRIDGES, Detective,  Anchorage Police  Department (APD),                                                               
testified via  teleconference.  She  said in Anchorage  there are                                                               
several  different ways  that  the 23  pawnshops  report to  [the                                                               
APD].   Some pawnshops  report on paper,  while others  either e-                                                               
mail the report  or have a computer disc with  the report that is                                                               
collected  on  a weekly  basis.    She  offered that  the  police                                                               
department provides the pawnbrokers  with pawn tickets, and other                                                               
agencies could duplicate  the tickets or have a copy  of them and                                                               
make their own  off of [the police department's] copy.   She said                                                               
while most of  the pawnshops are computerized,  they are required                                                               
to maintain a hard  copy when there is a transaction.   This is a                                                               
safety measure  just on the  off chance the computer  records are                                                               
destroyed.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 580                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES explained that there's  a disclaimer on the bottom of                                                               
the  pawn ticket  that the  customer or  "pawner" is  required to                                                               
read and  sign, which basically  states that the person  owns the                                                               
property.   There's a blank on  the pawn ticket for  the customer                                                               
to fill  out regarding the  number of  months and years  that the                                                               
person  has owned  it.   The  customer must  then  sign the  pawn                                                               
ticket also.   If the customer signs and  [the police department]                                                               
can prove the  item probably didn't belong to that  person in the                                                               
length of  time declared, that  person can be arrested  for theft                                                               
by deception.   She explained that  this is one thing  that helps                                                               
[the  police department]  to be  able to  charge people  who pawn                                                               
stolen property.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES  continued, explaining that  Play It Again  Sports in                                                               
Anchorage is required to report  to [the police department] also.                                                               
She mentioned  that it has  recently changed owners, and  the new                                                               
owner  has   asked  whether   the  reporting   requirement  would                                                               
continue; Ms. Bridges said she's  still trying to find the answer                                                               
to that  inquiry.  She  added, "Apparently, they're  not required                                                               
to have  a pawnbroker's license, so  ... I'm not sure  if they're                                                               
going to  be required to report  to us."  She  said although that                                                               
business takes in quite a bit  of property that could possibly be                                                               
stolen, she has  never had any problems with the  business in the                                                               
two  years  she has  been  doing  pawn.    However, it  still  is                                                               
required to report.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 590                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BRIDGES   mentioned  that  the  name   information  is  very                                                               
important for the APD to receive.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 02-29, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 592                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES explained  a current situation in which  a young lady                                                               
had a  couple pieces of jewelry  stolen and called to  report it,                                                               
saying she'd had  people over at her house and  knew someone took                                                               
the jewelry.  She continued describing the situation:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     She  gave me  names.   I checked  the names.   None  of                                                                    
     those people had done it.   But she also said, "There's                                                                    
     this  other gal,  her name  was April,  and I  know she                                                                    
     pawned the  jewelry at  Cash Alaska -  Muldoon."   So I                                                                    
     got on  our system and  looked for the  particular date                                                                    
     that she was saying that  the jewelry went missing, and                                                                    
     sure enough, I  did find April, and I was  able to find                                                                    
     out  who April  was.   And hopefully  we'll be  able to                                                                    
     recover this jewelry for her.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 584                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES  mentioned that  [the report] doesn't  go out  to the                                                               
public;  it's  just  for  [the police]  department's  use.    She                                                               
offered that  it would be good  with outside agencies also.   She                                                               
explained:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     For example,  [if] Lieutenant Hoffman in  Fairbanks has                                                                    
     a suspect that  he felt possibly came  to Anchorage and                                                                    
     pawned some property, he could  call me and say, "Could                                                                    
     you run  this person in  your system to see  if they've                                                                    
     made any pawns locally in the  past week."  And I could                                                                    
     run  that person's  name  and ...  say,  "Yeah, ...  he                                                                    
     pawned ... a Makita drill."  ...                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     A lot  of people do  not record serial numbers.   There                                                                    
     [is] a  lot of property  out there that  is serialized,                                                                    
     but they  do not record  the numbers.  And  the problem                                                                    
     that  we have  is, if  we  go in  and look  just for  a                                                                    
     generic  item, say,  a  Makita drill,  we  may have  20                                                                    
     pawned in a  week.  Without that serial  number, we may                                                                    
     not be  able to  return it  to the owner.   But  if the                                                                    
     owner says,  "Hey, ... I  think my employee,  John Doe,                                                                    
     pawned my  drill," ...   his name  is in the  report; I                                                                    
     get the  report, [and] then  I can run that  guy's name                                                                    
     in the  computer, and if  he did  pawn a drill,  then I                                                                    
     can recover it.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 574                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES  asked, in regard  to villages that don't  have photo                                                               
IDs, if there even are pawnshops  there.  If there are, she asked                                                               
whether the owners can vouch  for people's identities even though                                                               
they don't look at a picture  ID, because of knowing a person for                                                               
20 years,  for example.  She  emphasized that the whole  point of                                                               
the picture  ID is for  the clerk to  be able  to look at  it and                                                               
say, "Yes, this is the person who  pawned this item.  I looked at                                                               
their ID, I looked  at them, and I verified it  was, in fact, the                                                               
same person."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES  offered that there  are issues when people  obtain a                                                               
fake ID that  has the correct picture but a  different name.  She                                                               
said:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     It's not  required here in  Anchorage; I'd like  to see                                                                    
     it required, but it's not  required at this point.  ...                                                                    
     In some  of the  smaller towns, they  might not  have a                                                                    
     picture  ID. ...  The  whole point  of  doing this  and                                                                    
     looking  at  the picture  ID  is  if the  property  was                                                                    
     stolen, we can determine who  pawned it and be positive                                                                    
     that that's  the person  that pawned it.   So  maybe if                                                                    
     the picture ID is not  available, a fingerprint - so if                                                                    
     for  any reason  that  piece of  merchandise [that]  is                                                                    
     pawned comes up stolen, we  can go back and say, "Okay,                                                                    
     you provided  a fingerprint  when you pawned  the item.                                                                    
     Would  you be  willing to  provide another  fingerprint                                                                    
     for comparison?"                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 553                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BRIDGES  mentioned that  many  pawnshops  in Anchorage  have                                                               
video cameras, but not all do.   She offered that maybe a digital                                                               
photo could be another option if  a customer doesn't have a photo                                                               
ID.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES said,  "We [in Anchorage] are proud  of our ordinance                                                               
regarding the  pawnshops.  We do  not get a lot  of problems with                                                               
our  pawnshops.    They  are  very good  at  complying  with  the                                                               
ordinance."  She  added, "We're trying to strive to  change a few                                                               
things."  She explained that  [Anchorage] would like to see real-                                                               
time reporting or reporting on a  daily basis, whereby there is a                                                               
better  chance of  recovering  more stolen  property.   She  said                                                               
Anchorage recovers  hundreds of  thousands of  dollars a  year in                                                               
stolen property.  She stated:                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Some of  the crooks are  getting wise to the  fact that                                                                    
     we  recover stuff  from the  pawnshops  [that] they  do                                                                    
     take ... out  of town.  Palmer [or] Wasilla  is not too                                                                    
     far away  that they can't  just take a short  drive out                                                                    
     to the valley and pawn the  stuff.  We can't recover it                                                                    
     from  there, because  they don't  report  like they  do                                                                    
     here in  Anchorage.  ...   If they had the  same ... or                                                                    
     similar  setup that  we  do,  then it  would  be a  lot                                                                    
     easier in recovering a lot more stolen property.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 535                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MURKOWSKI  referred to  Play  It  Again Sports  and  said,                                                               
looking  at the  statute, it  is  clearly a  business engaged  in                                                               
buying  and  selling secondhand  articles.    She mentioned  that                                                               
women's consignment  shops would be  included also.   She offered                                                               
that  she  can't  imagine  that   these  entities  would  require                                                               
something as specific as a  pawnbroker license, and in looking at                                                               
the statute, she  thought this might be an  opportunity to define                                                               
pawnbrokers.  She asked if  the requirements to have a pawnbroker                                                               
license are in the Anchorage municipal code.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES  referred to the  Anchorage Municipal  Charter, Codes                                                               
and Regulations, 10.20.025, which read in part:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Required.   No  person may  engage in  the business  of                                                                    
     lending   money  on   security  of   personal  property                                                                    
     physically taken  and held,  or purchasing  articles of                                                                    
     personal property  and reselling or agreeing  to resell                                                                    
     the articles  to the vendor  or an assignee at  a price                                                                    
     agreed upon at or before  the time of purchase, without                                                                    
     first having  obtained a pawnbroker's license  from the                                                                    
     municipal clerk.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 516                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI  said she isn't  sure if that tells  her anything                                                               
more  than  she  knew  before.     She  said  this  is  important                                                               
information to  have for the  pawnshops and their  reporting, but                                                               
it  seems there's  a group  that could  be dragged  unnecessarily                                                               
into this.   She said she isn't quite sure  how that issue should                                                               
be addressed yet.   She offered that it may  just be by inserting                                                               
a definition of pawnbroker somewhere.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  asked Ms. Bridges  if it would  make her                                                               
job easier  if there  were a  record of a  photo ID,  rather than                                                               
just a written description of the customer.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES said  it would definitely make her job  a lot easier.                                                               
In Anchorage,  pawnshops are required to  collect the information                                                               
on the person  making the pawn, from his/her ID.   She emphasized                                                               
that whether it be a military  ID, an Alaska driver's license, an                                                               
Alaska ID,  or another  state ID, it  has to have  a photo.   She                                                               
told members, "The  whole point of it  is to be able  to say that                                                               
you're positive  the person  that you  are doing  the transaction                                                               
for is the same person on the ID."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD offered that  it doesn't seem the wording                                                               
in [HB 472] is clear about  the type of identification card used;                                                               
it only requires giving the number of the card.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 497                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES explained that [Anchorage's]  municipal statute is at                                                               
least ten pages long and covers a lot more than [HB 472] does.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD  restated his question  regarding whether                                                               
the person who  is making the pawn actually knows  that there's a                                                               
physical description being taken down.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES explained that a person  who pawns an item is given a                                                               
copy of the  pawn ticket.  Most  pawnshops - but not all  - do it                                                               
on a computer and print out a  "hard card" for the customer.  She                                                               
described  that on  the  pawn ticket  there is  a  place for  the                                                               
driver's license  number, sex, race, age,  height, weight, [color                                                               
of]  hair, [color  of] eyes,  and date  of birth.   She  said she                                                               
doesn't know if the customer  is necessarily told the information                                                               
is being  recorded, but the  customer is  provided a copy  of the                                                               
ticket.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD said that answers  his question.  He then                                                               
asked if  it should  be required that  a record of  a photo  or a                                                               
photo  ID of  the person  pawning the  item should  be kept.   He                                                               
offered that it isn't in [HB 472] as far as he can tell.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 475                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked  if this is putting  the pawnshop owner                                                               
in the position  of trying to guess someone's age  and weight, or                                                               
if the customer fills out the form.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE deferred the question to Detective Bridges.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOTT referred  to Section  1, subsection  (a)(6),                                                               
where it  discusses naming the  type of identification  card used                                                               
to  identify  the customer.    He  then  referred to  Section  2,                                                               
subsection (b), which read:                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     The  person  actually  conducting the  transaction  for                                                                    
     which  a signature  is required  under  (a)(6) of  this                                                                    
     section shall  verify the identity  of the  customer by                                                                    
     comparing  the  signature  of  the  customer  with  the                                                                    
     signature on  a driver's license,  state identification                                                                    
     card,  or   other  identification  card  issued   by  a                                                                    
     governmental entity to the customer.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT offered  that he doesn't see that  a photo ID                                                               
isn't being  used.  He  said the clerk  will be able  to validate                                                               
who the customer is by not only a signature, but also a photo.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 459                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  offered that she  believes a social security  card can                                                               
also be  accepted as identification.   As was  already discussed,                                                               
she  said some  Alaskan  communities don't  have photo  equipment                                                               
available when creating  state IDs for residents.   She mentioned                                                               
that she  has friends who,  when attending college out  of state,                                                               
lost their driver's license and  had Alaska state IDs issued that                                                               
said "Picture  not required" in place  of the picture.   So it is                                                               
possible to have a valid ID without a photograph on it.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOTT said  in Alaska  there are  pictures on  all                                                               
driver's  licenses and  state IDs.   He  offered that  he doesn't                                                               
believe that  anywhere is a  social security card accepted  as an                                                               
identification card.  He said he  has tried and was rejected, and                                                               
doesn't  think  a  social  security  card  even  falls  into  the                                                               
category of an  ID card.  He recognized the  problem with issuing                                                               
photo IDs  and driver's licenses  in rural Alaska.   He mentioned                                                               
that the National Guard and the Air Guard would have an ID card.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 436                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.   BRIDGES   asked,  "How   would   they   get  the   physical                                                               
descriptors?"  She suggested it  would be something one could get                                                               
off of  a driver's license  without asking the customer  how much                                                               
he/she weighs  or how  tall the  person is.   Someone  would just                                                               
have to ask for the ID  card and then collect all the information                                                               
from the ID card.  She  offered that police reports have the same                                                               
type of information being discussed  that can be gathered from an                                                               
ID card.   In  regard to  some of  the physical  descriptors, she                                                               
said someone can  just look at the customer and  kind of guess on                                                               
the height  and weight  because it's  not a  major concern.   She                                                               
emphasized, "The major concern is  making sure that the person on                                                               
the  ID card  is the  same  person you're  doing the  transaction                                                               
for."                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 425                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  KOTT offered  that  maybe [HB  472] should  state                                                               
something like  "approximate height  and weight".   He commented,                                                               
"I can  show you my ID  card.  I look  just look I did  ten years                                                               
ago, but I can guarantee the weight is substantially different."                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CRAWFORD asked whether a  State of Alaska voter ID                                                               
card that has  a signature would be considered  a sufficient form                                                               
of ID.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES  said she doesn't  think so.   [Anchorage's municipal                                                               
code]  is  pretty  specific  and   includes  name,  address,  and                                                               
military serial number or driver's  license number.  Although Ms.                                                               
Bridges said  she wasn't sure  whether she  could find it  in the                                                               
statute, all pawnshops [in Anchorage]  know that they're required                                                               
to  check IDs,  in order  to "make  sure that  you are  doing the                                                               
transaction for the person that they  say they are."  She offered                                                               
that if  someone comes  in and  wants to  make a  transaction but                                                               
doesn't have a photo ID, the pawnshop will turn the person away.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 407                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAYES  asked  how  much this  program  costs  the                                                               
Municipality [of Anchorage] to implement  every year.  He said it                                                               
seems that not  a lot of places in the  state currently have this                                                               
type of  program.  He offered  an example of a  person from rural                                                               
Alaska who  is visiting Anchorage for  the day and wants  to pawn                                                               
some  items.   He said  if  the person  didn't have  any type  of                                                               
picture ID  that would be  acceptable, then he/she would  have to                                                               
go  to  DMV  and get  an  ID.    He  asked  if it  would  be  the                                                               
responsibility of  the pawnshop owner  to inform the  customer of                                                               
the need to go through all these different steps.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 393                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRIDGES said the pawnshops  know they're required to check ID                                                               
when  they do  a loan;  if a  person who  wants to  pawn an  item                                                               
doesn't have a  picture ID, then the pawnshop is  not going to be                                                               
able to do the  transaction.  She explained that it  is up to the                                                               
customer who lacks a  picture ID to make the effort  to go to the                                                               
DMV and get a driver's license or  an ID with a picture.  It just                                                               
depends on  how badly  the person  wants to pawn  the item.   She                                                               
stated:                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     I'm  just not  sure  how big  of a  deal  not having  a                                                                    
     picture ID  is, because  I'm not sure  how many  of the                                                                    
     rural communities  have pawnshops.   ...   And  it just                                                                    
     seems  to me  that if,  in fact,  you do  have a  rural                                                                    
     community that  has a pawnshop,  then more  than likely                                                                    
     the  pawnshop owner  would  probably  know pretty  much                                                                    
     everybody  in the  community.   And in  that case  they                                                                    
     wouldn't necessarily  need to have picture  ID, because                                                                    
     they know the person.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 376                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MURKOWSKI mentioned  that other  people online  waiting to                                                               
testify might be able to offer some insight into that issue.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES  said he appreciates learning  about what is                                                               
done  in Anchorage,  but is  curious what  is done  elsewhere [in                                                               
Alaska].    He said  if  the  same physical  descriptions  aren't                                                               
currently  required  in  other  sections  of  the  state  besides                                                               
Anchorage, then that would put a  whole new system on those areas                                                               
that currently don't have those requirements.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 371                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
DAN HOFFMAN,  Lieutenant, Fairbanks Police  Department, testified                                                               
via  teleconference.    With  regard  to  Representative  Hayes's                                                               
question,  he  said  this  issue  needs  to  be  addressed  on  a                                                               
statewide basis.   He  said both Anchorage  and Fairbanks  have a                                                               
pawn ordinance  in place.   He  mentioned a  big problem  is that                                                               
[Fairbanks] can  make a change  to the local ordinance,  but it's                                                               
not  going to  affect all  the  pawnshops just  outside the  city                                                               
limits in the borough that  don't have any enforcement authority.                                                               
It's not  going to affect  pawnshops in North Pole,  for example,                                                               
or in the  Matanuska-Susitna area.  He offered his  belief that a                                                               
tremendous amount of stolen property  is stolen in Fairbanks on a                                                               
monthly basis and is trucked  to the [Matanuska-Susitna] area and                                                               
Anchorage, where it is pawned, and vice versa.  He continued:                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     It's because  we're not  centralized, and  it's because                                                                    
     everybody's not on  the same sheet of music  here.  ...                                                                    
     [There are] a  lot of people who  are stealing hundreds                                                                    
     of thousands  of dollars' worth  of stolen  property to                                                                    
     just move  [it] from one area  to the next.   So that's                                                                    
     why I  think this bill  is a first very  important step                                                                    
     to  get  every  place  in the  state  online  to  where                                                                    
     everybody is having to do the same thing.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     This bill  is pretty generic.   What I see as  the real                                                                    
     main section  of this bill,  that ...  state[wide] they                                                                    
     have to  report to their  local police department  in a                                                                    
     format  acceptable  to  that  department,  that's  very                                                                    
     generic  language.   And that's  probably as  it should                                                                    
     be,   because  that's   what's  going   to  give   your                                                                    
     individual municipalities the  fair chance to structure                                                                    
     things how they want it.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 345                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN  offered that he hopes  [HB 472] is going  to lay the                                                               
groundwork  for  every  police  department in  the  state  -  and                                                               
hopefully  the chiefs  of  police  association -  to  agree on  a                                                               
single system.   He mentioned that an online  or web-based system                                                               
would hopefully  be the acceptable  reporting format.   That way,                                                               
if somebody steals  something in Palmer and two  days later pawns                                                               
it in Anchorage or Fairbanks, that  agency is going to be able to                                                               
report it  to the agency that  took the (indisc.) report  and get                                                               
it resolved and get the item back to the owner.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 334                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN expressed:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     I think if  any of you ask any of  your constituents in                                                                    
     any  of  the  communities that  you  represent,  you'll                                                                    
     find, I think, people are  getting very fed up with the                                                                    
     amount  of  property  theft that's  going  on  in  this                                                                    
     state.  And I think anything  we can do that's going to                                                                    
     facilitate getting  people their property back  is well                                                                    
     worth the effort.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 332                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES  asked if the requirement  that the pawnshop                                                               
record the physical description of  the person pawning an item is                                                               
standard  operating procedure  across the  entire state,  and not                                                               
only in Anchorage and Fairbanks.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOFFMAN answered  that he  believes it's  standard operating                                                               
procedure  anywhere  pawnshops  are   regulated.    For  example,                                                               
Fairbanks  has  an  ordinance  that requires  all  of  the  local                                                               
pawnshops to  complete what  are called  pawn tickets,  which are                                                               
the  same as  the pawn  tickets that  Detective Bridges  said are                                                               
used in Anchorage.  These use  carbon copies.  The person pawning                                                               
the  property gets  one copy,  the pawnshop  retains a  copy, and                                                               
then the third copy goes to the police department.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 320                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOFFMAN said  Representative  Hayes had  brought up  another                                                               
very  good issue  earlier about  creating  unfunded mandates  and                                                               
whether  this will  create a  big system  that local  departments                                                               
can't support.  He described  the problem in Fairbanks right now:                                                               
nearly all agencies  are on a paper-based  system; volunteers and                                                               
police  go around  and collect  shoeboxes full  of pawn  tickets.                                                               
However,  there isn't  data-entry  staff available  to enter  all                                                               
that information  into a searchable database,  as Anchorage does.                                                               
Mr. Hoffman continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     That's why I say what  we're looking at, down the road,                                                                    
     is really shifting  the burden of data  entry away from                                                                    
     governments  and  public   agencies  and  putting  this                                                                    
     directly  on the  pawn owners  themselves.   There's no                                                                    
     reason that when  a pawn owner does  a transaction that                                                                    
     they   shouldn't   immediately    be   inputting   that                                                                    
     transaction into  a computer  record.   ...   Then that                                                                    
     either  gets transferred  online  or we  go around  and                                                                    
     pick  up  a  disc,  as Anchorage  is  doing,  and  that                                                                    
     immediately  gets sent  up  to  a centralized  database                                                                    
     [that] all law enforcement agencies can access.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     I think every agency --  I know Anchorage, and I'm sure                                                                    
     the troopers, as  well as us, we're all  trying to work                                                                    
     harder  and work  smarter and  work  with the  existing                                                                    
     technology.   We  don't have  the budget  to go  hire a                                                                    
     bunch of data-entry clerks and  do manual entry on pawn                                                                    
     tickets using  1950s technology.   We really  should be                                                                    
     moving  forward and  using  the information  technology                                                                    
     that's available out there.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 301                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOFFMAN,   referring  to  Representative   Hayes's  original                                                               
question,  affirmed  that  it  is  standard  operating  procedure                                                               
throughout  the  pawn  industry to  obtain  ID,  obtain  physical                                                               
descriptors, and confirm signatures.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 298                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HAYES voiced  his  concern with  the effect  this                                                               
proposed state  law would have  on rural areas that  have village                                                               
public  safety  officers (VPSOs)  and  lack  any law  enforcement                                                               
agency.  He asked, "Is this  law pretty much going into place for                                                               
the urban areas?"                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HOFFMAN   answered,  "I  would  say   primarily,  because  I                                                               
personally  don't  believe that  there  are  very many  pawn  and                                                               
secondhand  stores out  in the  rural  areas."   He offered  that                                                               
people [from  a rural  area] who  have things  they need  to pawn                                                               
will probably  bring them into  Fairbanks or Anchorage  when they                                                               
come into town.   He said he  has spent a lot of  time working in                                                               
rural Alaska and has never seen a pawnshop.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. HOFFMAN  expressed that he thinks  the main part of  [HB 472]                                                               
is it requires the pawnshops to  report in a format acceptable to                                                               
the  local police  department.   He said,  "If your  local police                                                               
department is  the Alaska  State Troopers  post in,  for example,                                                               
Shungnak, they may  say it's acceptable to  our police department                                                               
that  we're not  going  to  do this  here,  because  it's not  an                                                               
issue."  He noted that  it's urban areas like Fairbanks, Wasilla,                                                               
Palmer, Anchorage, or Juneau where  local police departments will                                                               
probably want  to develop a  format for reporting and  to require                                                               
pawnshops to submit reports.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 269                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
BERTHA  BAUGUS, Roy's  Pawn Shop,  testified via  teleconference,                                                               
noting that  Delta Junction is  considered rural Alaska  and that                                                               
"we do have a pawn and a  thrift store."  Speaking of herself and                                                               
Roy Baugus, who was no longer  available to testify that day, Ms.                                                               
Baugus said, "We've  been here about 20 years  and we've followed                                                               
all the rules and regulations [for a] store for pawn."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 254                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. BAUGUS informed the committee  that she doesn't have computer                                                               
access, so all  [transactions are] handwritten in [a  book].  She                                                               
said, "The  main thing we  were worried  about is the  buying and                                                               
selling of items in our thrift store  and our pawnshop.  ...  For                                                               
what  kind of  items  [are]  you asking  ...  to  be listed  with                                                               
identification?"                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE answered  that in  the course  of putting  forward [HB
472], a big gray  area opened up, and she thought  "it would be a                                                               
good  thing if  this  were a  place where  we  could define  what                                                               
exactly  we're looking  for."   She  said  she hadn't  considered                                                               
consignment  shops, thrift  stores, and  the Salvation  Army, for                                                               
example.    Technically,  a  person  who  steals  an  item  isn't                                                               
probably going to  take it to the Salvation Army  and drop it off                                                               
for  free, but  the  Salvation  Army is  a  dealer in  secondhand                                                               
goods.   She stated, "That does  raise a big hole  in our current                                                               
statute,  and I  think perhaps  something  along the  lines of  a                                                               
dollar  amount, perhaps,  or maybe  an average  dollar amount  in                                                               
transactions  for  the  store  as   a  whole  --  so  that  would                                                               
completely exempt things like thrift stores."                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 232                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MURKOWSKI offered  that it  seems there  is a  substantial                                                               
difference between a  pawnshop and a thrift  store or consignment                                                               
shop.   She  suggested  perhaps it  just goes  back  to issue  of                                                               
licensing for pawnbrokers.  She  said she doesn't know what those                                                               
requirements are,  but mentioned  that Ms.  Baugus had  raised an                                                               
interesting point that the sponsor  should perhaps consider.  She                                                               
asked Ms. Baugus if she had any further testimony.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. BAUGUS offered  that Delta Junction is a  small town; anybody                                                               
who brings in a  stolen item is not going to  pawn it and provide                                                               
a ID,  but will try  to sell the  item.   She said she  also buys                                                               
things from  people.  She  explained that  she has been  in Delta                                                               
Junction  for  "20-some years,"  knows  just  about everybody  in                                                               
town,  and doesn't  always ask  for  an ID.   She  said when  new                                                               
people  come  in that  she  doesn't  know,  she  tries to  get  a                                                               
description.   She said if a  new person comes in  selling two or                                                               
three videos for  the thrift shop, she doesn't always  ask for an                                                               
ID.  She  noted, "That's the limit [on] the  amount I was talking                                                               
about."  She  also asked about the impact [of  HB 472] on current                                                               
inventory.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI said she isn't certain.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 198                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ACHEE noted  that [HB  472] lacks  an effective  date.   She                                                               
offered  that  she doesn't  think  reports  of current  inventory                                                               
would be required,  and that when an effective date  is added, it                                                               
would  be  from that  point  forward.    She said  under  current                                                               
statute,  Ms.  Baugus  should  have  been  entering  all  of  her                                                               
transactions into a record book up to this time.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI reminded Ms. Achee  that Ms. Baugus had indicated                                                               
that she  has been  keeping the  record book,  but that  it's not                                                               
computerized.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   KOTT  asked   if   there   are  any   additional                                                               
pawnbrokers or secondhand  store dealers waiting to  testify.  He                                                               
asked Ms.  Baugus how many  transactions she has over  the course                                                               
of a week.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 184                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BAUGUS explained  that Delta  Junction is  a small  town and                                                               
some weeks  she might have two  pawned items, and some  weeks she                                                               
might  have six  or seven  items.   She said,  "That's about  our                                                               
limit."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI  informed Representative Kott that  there weren't                                                               
other  pawnbrokers  or  secondhand   dealers  online  waiting  to                                                               
testify.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 171                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
JULIA  GRIMES, Lieutenant,  Division  of  Alaska State  Troopers,                                                               
Department of  Public Safety, testified via  teleconference.  She                                                               
said she was  online to listen and to answer  any questions.  She                                                               
explained that she hasn't been  able to get together with Captain                                                               
Brown to  find out what  he has  discussed with the  sponsor, and                                                               
said she  hesitates to add a  whole lot.  She  mentioned that the                                                               
state troopers throughout the state  want to be able to cooperate                                                               
and work in  concert with any police department to  "have a large                                                               
net  around the  state  to try  to be  effective  in finding  and                                                               
recovering  stolen property."   She  concluded, "So  we certainly                                                               
are in support of the intent of this bill."                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 155                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAYES expressed surprise that  [HB 472] has a zero                                                               
fiscal note.   He asked Ms.  Grimes, if the state  troopers don't                                                               
currently record any  of this information, whether  the cost will                                                               
just be absorbed into current operations.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. GRIMES surmised  that would be the case.   With regard to the                                                               
fiscal  note, she  said she  suspects that  the reports  from the                                                               
more rural areas would not be  substantial, and could be filed or                                                               
entered  into  a  computer  database with  little  impact.    She                                                               
suggested  it wouldn't  be a  whole lot  more than  just creating                                                               
either a hardcopy or a computerized  database.  She offered to do                                                               
further research on this issue.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 122                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BRIDGES added  that she  frequently gets  pawn tickets  from                                                               
out-of-state agencies.   She'd just  received one  from Longview,                                                               
Washington, for  example, and  one from  Mesa, Arizona,  and both                                                               
have physical descriptors.   She offered that  "it's a nationwide                                                               
thing to put physical descriptors on the pawn ticket."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  agreed and  said Arizona,  Florida, and  Illinois also                                                               
require a  physical description, so it's  not completely unusual.                                                               
She added:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Since  this scenario  has  arisen  where someone  could                                                                    
     present a  false ID, having  a physical  description of                                                                    
     the person  in addition  to a  name off  an ID  card is                                                                    
     probably  a  good thing.    Whether  the pawnshops  are                                                                    
     reading it straight  off the ID or  actually looking at                                                                    
     the person is another question.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  related her understanding  that if stolen  property is                                                               
found, the  pawnshop loses the  money it  paid to the  person who                                                               
pawned the  item; she  surmised that  Detective Bridges  might be                                                               
able  to verify  that assumption.    She added,  "Perhaps if  you                                                               
could identify that person with  certainty, then the pawnshop has                                                               
some civil [action] against them."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BRIDGES said  Ms. Achee's  interpretation is  correct.   She                                                               
added  that  if [the  APD  is]  able  to prosecute,  it  requests                                                               
restitution for  the pawnshop as part  of the penalty or  as part                                                               
of the punishment if the thief is  found guilty.  She said if the                                                               
pawnshops wanted  to go as far  as putting a lien  on the thief's                                                               
permanent  fund [dividend],  for  example, the  courts can  order                                                               
restitution.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 084                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MURKOWSKI  acknowledged that  there  have  been some  good                                                               
issues and points of concern raised.   She said without going too                                                               
far  with HB  472,  and  looking at  the  statutes that  regulate                                                               
pawnshops, she  believes there  is probably  some room  to update                                                               
and revise certain areas of that statute.  She continued:                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Specifically, when  it refers  to the book,  you'd hate                                                                    
     to  think  that  what  is happening  in  Anchorage  and                                                                    
     Fairbanks is  being done of  violation of  the statutes                                                                    
     right  now.   But from  what  I've heard  and what  I'm                                                                    
     reading, it sounds  like that's possibly the  case.  So                                                                    
     this could  be a good  opportunity to really  bring the                                                                    
     statutes current.   And then  I think - just  in [terms                                                                    
     of]  how   we  can   deal  with   this  issue   of  the                                                                    
     consignment,  the  thrift  shops,  the  Play  It  Again                                                                    
     Sports scenario  - I think  this is a  good opportunity                                                                    
     to kind of work it through.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI  offered her  time and her  staff's time  to work                                                               
with Representative Green to find a good way to do this.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 061                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE KOTT  suggested that  in working with  the sponsor                                                               
and his  staff, Representative Murkowski might  also consult with                                                               
some of  the pawnbrokers.   He  said he was  hoping to  hear from                                                               
some pawnbrokers to see if  the proposed recording mechanism used                                                               
to submit  to the police department  is onerous.  He  said he was                                                               
curious how many transactions a  pawnbroker might have in a week.                                                               
He said  he's never  been in  a pawnshop.   He suggested  that if                                                               
there are  thousands of transactions  a month, maybe  a threshold                                                               
should be established  whereby only items valued at  over $5 need                                                               
to be recorded.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 040                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. ACHEE  added that unfortunately the  local representative for                                                               
the National Pawnbrokers Association  was unable to testify today                                                               
because she was out of town.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MURKOWSKI  said she thinks  this can be worked  through and                                                               
offered  to  help,  but  without forming  a  subcommittee.    She                                                               
thanked the  sponsor and all who'd  testified.  [HB 472  was held                                                               
over.]                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                

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