Legislature(1997 - 1998)

04/16/1997 03:20 PM House L&C

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 SSHB 159 - TOBACCO PURCHASE, POSSESSION, SALE, ETC.                           
                                                                               
 Number 0517                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the next item of business was Sponsor             
 Substitute for House Bill No. 159, "An Act relating to sale, gift,            
 exchange, possession, and purchase of tobacco and tobacco products;           
 and providing for an effective date."                                         
                                                                               
 Number 0555                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BILL HUDSON made a motion to adopt 0-LS0287\L, Ford,           
 4/14/97, as a work draft.  There being no objection, that version             
 was before the committee.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 0572                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PETE KOTT, sponsor, addressed changes in the                   
 proposed committee substitute.  Referring to page 4, line 8, he               
 said the $100 was changed to $250 to add internal consistency.                
 Page 4, line 3, added a new subsection (f) to prohibit the sale of            
 loose cigarettes, an idea suggested by Chairman Rokeberg.  On page            
 3, line 2, the phrase, "for consumption on the licensed premises",            
 which appeared in version K immediately after "sold", was deleted.            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked the reason for that.                                  
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said current law permits vending machines in              
 package stores; this retains the present law.  Page 5, line 15,               
 adds the language, "and may not apply for a license endorsement               
 under AS 43.70.075 under a different name."  As discussed at the              
 last hearing, they didn't want a person applying for another                  
 endorsement under a different name if that person's license was               
 suspended.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 0741                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said in Section 9 on page 6, the phrase,                  
 "ADOPTED UNDER AS 43.70.090", was deleted.  In version K, this                
 phrase occurred three times, whereas in version L, it no longer               
 occurs.  The statute in question, AS 43.70.090, authorizes the                
 promulgation of regulations to determine and collect fees.  By                
 removing this limitation, a violation of any regulation                       
 implementing Section 9 of the bill may be used as an aggregating              
 factor in imposing a suspension or revocation.  This change was               
 requested by the Division of Occupational Licensing; someone from             
 that division had testified at the previous hearing.                          
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT provided the rationale for not adopting other             
 suggestions made at the previous hearing.  They had gone through              
 the tapes and tried to cover some of the issues brought forth.                
 Several people had suggested that the language should be removed              
 which makes it a violation for minors to attempt to purchase                  
 tobacco, or that they should provide a law enforcement exemption.             
 However, to his knowledge, present law does not contain such an               
 exemption.  Neither does he believe they should encourage kids to             
 become undercover operatives.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 0884                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked whether that was the "Synar amendment" on             
 the federal statute.  He requested clarification.                             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said he wasn't familiar with that, but if it              
 was covered under federal law, it wouldn't change under state law.            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG, noting that Anchorage had adopted ordinances,              
 asked whether anything in the bill would prohibit a local                     
 municipality from doing that.                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said no, then specified it was a weak no.                 
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG requested that Representative Kott check on that.           
                                                                               
 Number 0929                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said there were suggestions that fees collected           
 be rebated to the municipalities.  He explained, "We already have             
 some intent language in here that would provide funding, based on             
 legislative approval, back to municipalities and boroughs.  And the           
 fee structure, as it currently exists, as we were discussing it in            
 relationship with the ABC Board, just wouldn't work.  There's a               
 total of about $66,000 generated in license fees.  And if you                 
 divided that among the municipalities and boroughs equally, you               
 probably wouldn't have enough for one-tenth of an enforcement                 
 officer.  So, that in and of itself really wasn't worthy of further           
 evaluation."                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 0973                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked:  What about the fines?                               
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said the fines themselves would be reimbursed             
 to the municipalities, stating, "That's, again, why we have the               
 $8,000 court note, to determine what municipalities collected and             
 what would be rebated."  He emphasized that there is no guarantee             
 of that going back to the municipalities.  However, the intent                
 language ensures that the legislature understands the reason it was           
 inserted in the bill in the first place.                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1002                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE referred to the change from 19 to 21 years of            
 age.  He asked whether that action was taken in the last committee.           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said it was not new language.                             
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said they had adopted that in the committee                 
 substitute.                                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1020                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked whether Representative Kott had thought             
 about the administrative costs of collecting these fines through              
 the state instead of having a direct reimbursement to the                     
 municipality from the court system.                                           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT replied that they had not considered it, nor              
 did he believe there would be a tremendous administrative cost                
 associated with that reimbursement, according to discussions they             
 had with the division.                                                        
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT addressed Chairman Rokeberg and Representative            
 Ryan regarding whether clerks under the age of 21 could sell                  
 tobacco on behalf of their employers.  He said the present law does           
 not contain an express exemption.  In discussions with Mike Ford,             
 the drafting attorney, Mr. Ford didn't feel that the courts would             
 construe these activities as possession, as that word is used in              
 this bill.  Mr. Ford believed the court would give that a narrow              
 interpretation but said it would be all right to clarify that in              
 the bill, which a proposed amendment does.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1118                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said Representative Kubina had questioned the             
 wisdom of including mail orders and had asked whether some proof of           
 age should be required in such transactions.  Representative Kott             
 stated, "We believe that this would be unfair, especially as it               
 relates to rural Alaska, out in the bush, where mail orders are               
 often done."  He indicated there was another amendment that might             
 tighten it up, under which an initial transaction would require               
 that a photo identification showing the person's age be faxed to              
 the wholesaler.                                                               
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked whether there was a federal law relating to           
 using the mail to distribute tobacco products to underage people.             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said no, not that he was aware of.  He had                
 looked at a catalog two days before, and there was no requirement             
 to send in photo identification.  However, there was a signature              
 block and check-off block, and he believed most mail orders require           
 a person to be 21 years of age.  That was the extent of the                   
 requirement for potential purchasers.                                         
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT mentioned a question by the chairman as to                
 whether the exception to the general prohibition on vending                   
 machines covered by page 2, line 31, was redundant.  Representative           
 Kott said there is no redundancy.  This covers places that exclude            
 persons under age 21, such as smoking clubs.  It is not the same as           
 the next exception concerning places where alcohol is sold.                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG acknowledged the three proposed amendments that             
 Representative Kott had handed out.                                           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE offered Amendment 1, 0-LS0287\L.1, Ford,                 
 4/16/97, which read:                                                          
                                                                               
      Page 5, line 16:                                                         
           Delete "endorsement under AS 43.70.075"                             
           Insert "under AS 43.50.010 - 43.50.180"                             
                                                                               
      Page 6, following line 20:                                               
           Insert a new bill section to read:                                  
           "*Sec. 10.  AS 43.70.075(e) is amended to read:                     
                (e) If a person who receives an endorsement under              
      this section has multiple retail outlets, a suspension imposed           
      under (d) of this section applies only to the retail outlet in           
      which the violation occurs.  If a person receives a suspension           
      under (d) of this section, the person may not apply for a                
      license endorsement under this section under a different                 
      name."                                                                   
                                                                               
      Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG objected for purposes of discussion.                        
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT explained that Amendment 1 was basically what             
 had been discussed by the division.  If one retail outlet was                 
 suspended, they would not want that outlet to apply for another               
 endorsement under a different name.  This tightens it up.                     
 Otherwise, there could be multiple endorsements from the same                 
 retail establishment, and the suspension or revocation would serve            
 no real purpose.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 1296                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG removed his objection and asked whether there               
 were further objections.  There being none, Amendment 1 was                   
 adopted.                                                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE made a motion to adopt Amendment 2, 0-                   
 LS0287\L.2, Ford, 4/16/97, which read:                                        
                                                                               
      Page 2, following line 13:                                               
           Insert a new subsection to read:                                    
                "(c)  In this section, "possess" does not include              
      possession for the purpose of retail sale by a person under 21           
      years of age who holds a license endorsement under AS                    
      43.70.075 or who is the employee of a person who holds a                 
      license endorsement under AS 43.70.075."                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1305                                                                   
                                                                               
 An unidentified member objected for discussion purposes.                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT explained that this amendment relates to the              
 drafting attorney's suggestion that they could make it clear to the           
 courts that for a person under age 21 who was working for a retail            
 establishment, selling tobacco products of itself would not be                
 considered possession and a violation of the statute.  Currently,             
 a person who is 18 years old may sell tobacco products.                       
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked whether there was any objection.  He then             
 noted that the objection was removed and Amendment 2 was adopted.             
                                                                               
 Number 1365                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON said he was moving Amendment 3 for discussion           
 purposes.  Amendment 3, 0-LS0287\L.3, Ford, 4/16/97, read:                    
                                                                               
      Page 2, line 25, following "order":                                      
           Insert ", and the person selling the tobacco product has            
      a copy of the purchaser's photo identification indicating that           
      the purchaser is at least 21 years of age"                               
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT explained that Amendment 3 requires that photo            
 identification be supplied when a purchaser orders by mail.                   
                                                                               
 Number 1400                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOHN COWDERY mentioned the possibility of it not               
 being that person's identification, saying he didn't know how to              
 correct that.                                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT acknowledged there are several ways to get                
 around the under-age prohibition; this just tightens it up.  He               
 believes a photo identification stating the person's age would at             
 least give the vendor more assurance that the mail-order purchaser            
 is of legal age.                                                              
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN suggested it would take the liability off the             
 vendor, who could produce a photocopy of the identification and               
 state that he or she had acted in good faith.                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1446                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON made a motion to adopt Amendment 3.  There              
 being no objection, it was so ordered.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 1462                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG called a brief at-ease at 3:50 p.m.  He called              
 the meeting back to order at 3:51 p.m.                                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG expressed concern about the age of 21, having               
 been drafted as a youth into the U.S. Army, where they provided               
 "gags" in C-ration boxes overseas.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 1502                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said they no longer do that.  The same                    
 situation had been discussed when the age for legally drinking was            
 raised to 21.  He believes the military establishments would                  
 conform, as they did then.  He also believes the state has an                 
 interest in protecting the public health, and by elevating this to            
 21, it gives those contemplating smoking an opportunity to                    
 reevaluate it.  He suggested at some point the federal government             
 would probably elevate the age for possession to 21 as well.                  
                                                                               
 Number 1551                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked how many military personnel now serve in              
 Alaska.                                                                       
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said there are approximately 8,500 active-duty            
 personnel.  He suggested that in the military, both nationwide and            
 statewide, tobacco use is being deglamorized as much as possible.             
 He estimated that of those 8,500, ten percent use tobacco.                    
                                                                               
 Number 1612                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN said having been employed at a military                   
 installation for some time, he found the general policy is that the           
 military makes its people adhere to the laws of the local community           
 in which they are stationed, as well as to the uniform military               
 justice code.  If they enact this legislation, Representative Ryan            
 believes the commanders would instruct their troops accordingly.              
                                                                               
 Number 1645                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he didn't see any grandfather clause to             
 provide, for example, for a 20-year-old smoker who will suddenly be           
 made underage.  Recalling that there had been discussion of that              
 relating to alcohol consumption, he asked whether there had been              
 similar discussion about this.                                                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT replied, "In my opinion, and it's strictly                
 that, there was no discussion on grandfathering-in anyone.  There             
 is an effective date on the bill, obviously, and someone who has              
 been smoking a relatively short period of time, hopefully, if                 
 they've been abiding by the laws as they currently exist, should be           
 able to kick the habit.  And there's a number of tools out there              
 that will help."  He commented on the chairman's efforts to quit.             
                                                                               
 Number 1714                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY said there are people age 14 or 15 who are             
 addicted to "crack," and that didn't mean they should adjust laws             
 to make that legal.  He said no bill is perfect.  This is a health            
 bill, to try to keep youth from starting to smoke.  "And the ones             
 that have started early, God bless them, I guess," he said.  He               
 himself had begun at age nine, smoked for 40 years, and quit.  He             
 believes this goes a long way towards solving the concerns that               
 many people have of youths' smoking.                                          
                                                                               
 Number 1766                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked the justification for raising the age             
 from 19 to 21 in Section 2.  He also had served in the military.              
 He expressed concern that many young men and women are emancipated            
 by age 18 and out of school.  He asked whether they may be trying             
 to over-protect that upper-age group of young people.                         
                                                                               
 Number 1844                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said the main thought was to conform it to                
 essentially the same standards as for alcohol use.  Based on what             
 he had heard, he believes that a small percentage of young people             
 start smoking once they leave school and get into another                     
 environment.  This would at least postpone that potential for a               
 couple of years, providing an opportunity to perhaps make a more              
 rational decision.                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 1838                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked whether there is any bar in the federal           
 law to people this age smoking.                                               
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT replied, "We can be more stringent but not                
 less."                                                                        
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked what the federal law is currently.                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said he wasn't sure.  He thought it was under             
 19.                                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1857                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS commented that had this law been in effect             
 50 years ago, his mother might still be alive.  She had her first             
 cigarette at age 20 and died of emphysema at 74.                              
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT recounted that he had joined the U.S. Air Force           
 at age 19.  The drill instructor marched them around for a couple             
 of hours and then said those who smoked could fall out, whereas               
 those who didn't had to stand at-ease in formation.  The best way             
 to get under the shade was to light a cigarette, and that was his             
 introduction to tobacco products.  He suggested if the law was 21,            
 he wouldn't have had his initial contact.                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said he started at age 12 or 14 and had smoked              
 for more than 40 years.  He mentioned movie stars and sports                  
 celebrities who had influenced him.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1949                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG offered a conceptual amendment to change the age            
 from 21 to 19, the age of majority in Alaska.  Because the                    
 committee substitute raised the age without a grandfather clause,             
 they would be telling somebody who is fully emancipated that, at              
 age 20, it is now illegal to do what they already do.  He did not             
 condone smoking but believed this would be "socially dislocating."            
 Mentioning the alcohol prohibition era, he pointed out that when              
 something is prohibited, that itself can entice a young person.               
 The transition period between the late-teen stage into young                  
 adulthood is a difficult time.  For numerous reasons, he was                  
 offering a conceptual amendment to move the age from 21 to 19 in              
 all portions of the legislation.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 2011                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS objected.                                              
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked to hear from the sponsor.                           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT stated, "My thoughts are that tobacco use is              
 prevalent among our youth, whether we like to know it or not.  But            
 beyond that, if there are any young individuals out there in the              
 community that have the thought of starting once they are of the              
 existing legal age, we can at least postpone that for a couple of             
 years and protect them from the negative effects of nicotine and              
 tobacco use in general."                                                      
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG requested a roll-call vote.  Voting for the                 
 amendment were Representatives Rokeberg and Hudson.  Voting against           
 it were Representatives Cowdery, Sanders, Brice and Ryan.                     
 Representative Kubina was absent.  Therefore, it failed, 4 to 2.              
                                                                               
 Number 2089                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE RYAN made a motion to move 0-LS0287\L, Ford,                   
 4/14/97, as amended, from committee with individual recommendations           
 and accompanying fiscal notes.                                                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG pointed out that the fiscal notes were for the              
 sponsor substitute:  $7,900 from the Alaska Court System, 66.3                
 thousand dollars from the Department of Commerce and Economic                 
 Development, and the rest for zero.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 2115                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked whether there was any objection.  There               
 being none, CSSSHB 159(JUD) moved out of the House Labor and                  
 Commerce Standing Committee.                                                  

Document Name Date/Time Subjects