Legislature(1995 - 1996)

02/26/1996 03:10 PM House L&C

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
 HB 73 - LICENSURE OF MANICURISTS                                            
 Number 1039                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN KOTT informed the committee the next order of business               
 would be HB 73, "An Act relating to licensure of manicurists," by             
 Representative Brice.                                                         
 Number 1061                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE, Sponsor of HB 73, explained the issue was           
 brought to his attention by some of his constituents in Fairbanks             
 who pointed out the fact that Alaska is one of only eight states,             
 nationally, that in no way regulates or oversees the practice of              
 manicure.  He indicated this does pose a fairly important public              
 health question that must be addressed.  Representative Brice                 
 indicated in the committee file there is some information from the            
 Federal Drug Administration relating to manicuring and some of the            
 associated public health risks.  He said his concern is that any              
 time you're taking sharp objects and playing with people's fingers            
 and toes, at some point in time there is the opportunity to have              
 problems, and in some cases it could be extreme.  Representative              
 Brice noted there have been cases reported to him, anecdotally,               
 about people's fingernails and fingers getting disturbed.  This was           
 because the practices of people doing the procedures were in no way           
 over looked.                                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE explained HB 73 would provide the Board of               
 Barbers and Hairdressers to establish the standards and approve the           
 licensing of people who do practice manicure.  He pointed out a               
 couple of issues have been brought to his attention.  There is one            
 amendment relating to the clarity of the definition of                        
 "manicuring," which would be on page 6, lines 20 through 24.  It              
 wasn't clear as to what was and wasn't exempt.  The proposed                  
 amendment clarifies that issue.  There was also a question raised             
 relating to a person who specializes in foot massage and if they              
 had to clip toenails, would they be prohibited.  Representative               
 Brice said he isn't sure of the answer, but it might be an issue              
 the committee would want to take up.                                          
 Number 1294                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE SANDERS asked Representative Brice if he would                 
 object to a motion to change "manicurist" to "personicurist."                 
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he thinks "manicurist" would be the                 
 proper term.                                                                  
 CHAIRMAN KOTT said generally speaking, he thinks there are more               
 women who are manicurists.                                                    
 Number 1367                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG questioned the figures in the HESS fiscal             
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked that questions relating to the fiscal              
 note be referred to the director of the Division of Occupational              
 Number 1433                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON asked if the proposed amendment had been                 
 CHAIRMAN KOTT indicated that it hasn't.                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said as a spouse of a masseuse, he is                    
 concerned that people who do massage or offer massage therapy are             
 now going to have to be licensed manicurists.  He said he doesn't             
 know what massage of the hand or feet for cosmetic purposes may               
 mean.  It would seem that there is a question that somebody who is            
 doing massage is now going to have to become a licensed manicurist.           
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that was a question committee staff had             
 brought to him.  In response, the amendment was written which                 
 states, "notwithstanding (A) of this paragraph,".  In other words,            
 they would not be considered manicurists if they're massaging both            
 hands or feet solely for the treatment of disease of physical or              
 mental ailments.  He said he would suggest that a massage might be            
 considered the treatment of a mental ailment.                                 
 Number 1544                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he goes to a masseuse and not for                   
 treatment of disease or physical or mental ailments.  He goes                 
 because it makes him feel good.                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG suggested deleting that section.                      
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he wouldn't have an objection if that is            
 something the committee finds appropriate.  There are major                   
 questions that still need to be addressed.                                    
 Number 1626                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he was not aware that there were                   
 criminal sanctions in this area of the law.  He said what he would            
 suggest, if the bill is adopted, is that someone who gives a                  
 massage for money without a license is subject to criminal                    
 prosecution.  He said he can't see what the big public safety issue           
 is with a hang nail.  It is ridiculous to make it a criminal                  
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he would agree that it is not that big of           
 a public safety issue.  He said he would agree that it is more of             
 a public health issue.  Representative Brice said, "Having                    
 discussed the issue with numerous operators, it can and does                  
 regularly have problems -- or people, people do regularly have                
 problems with what happens by the manicurist, or people who are               
 doing their nails as it were."                                                
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said if there is a significant problem in               
 that area and he would submit that it won't be addressed by                   
 criminal prosecution.  He said he doesn't know a district attorney            
 in the state who would accept this case.                                      
 CHAIRMAN KOTT noted the committee is discussing Section 14 on page            
 Number 1703                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said the bill would force people to get their           
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER informed the committee he has a problem with            
 having something in law that is intended not to function the way it           
 appears to be designed.  He said there would be a civil penalty               
 rather than criminal prosecution.                                             
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said much of the licensure laws are like              
 that.  He said as a holder of a state license, he has been upset by           
 it being there because if there is an accusation on any statutory             
 or regulatory breach on the part of any license holder in the                 
 state, normally it can become a class B misdemeanor.                          
 Representative Rokeberg asked if there is anything in the bill that           
 restricts him from giving his wife a pedicure.                                
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE indicated there wouldn't be a restriction                
 unless his wife is paying him to give her a pedicure.  He said he             
 is concerned with money exchanging hands.                                     
 Number 1871                                                                   
 DAGMAR STRANAK, Owner, Classic Nails Plus More, testified via                 
 teleconference from Mat-Su.  Ms. Stranak said she would address the           
 issue of a hang nail not being a primary cause or major concern.              
 She said she would do this in direct correlation with some of the             
 clients she has who are diabetic.  Ms. Stranak said if a hang nail            
 gets terribly infected and isn't taken care of, people could be               
 looking at the loss of a limb because they have no proper                     
 circulation whether it is to their hands or feet.  Ms. Stranak                
 noted she is licensed in New York, New Jersey and Virginia.  She              
 referred to massaging the hands from the palm up to the (indisc.)             
 not (indisc.) longer than three minutes per hand as opposed a                 
 masseuse who spends ten minutes, if not more, on a particular                 
 extremity of the body.  She indicated this issue is being confused.           
 Ms. Stranak said it is not a matter of who has a license and who              
 doesn't, it is a matter of going ahead and keeping the people in              
 the public sector aware and keeping education above where it should           
 be.  There is a difference between a professional and somebody who            
 is just doing it for the money they think is in it.                           
 Number 1965                                                                   
 STORMY JOSTEN, Nail Technician, Classic Nails Plus More, was next             
 to testify via teleconference.  She explained she will be using the           
 term "nail tech" rather than manicurist because she believes there            
 is a difference between the two.  Ms. Josten said education is                
 vital to every aspect of the industry and the need for continued              
 education is most important towards being a safe and qualified nail           
 technician.  This issue must not be taken lightly, not only for the           
 health of a client but for the nail tech as well.  This can be                
 broke down into several categories but, again, the key is                     
 education.  A nail tech must know about the safety and/or hazards             
 of the chemical she uses and the proper way in which to use them.             
 Proper sanitation is a must.  With the risk of certain                        
 transmittable disease such as AIDS or Hepatitis, even if there is             
 only a slight risk, a nail tech must still exercise caution in                
 taking the necessary precautions to avoid and eliminate these                 
 risks.  For example, instruments that are used must be properly               
 sterilized.  If a client is cut with a file or buffer, it would be            
 much safer to throw it away and dispose of it properly than risk              
 using it on another client.  A nail tech must learn the proper way            
 to apply and use certain chemicals and products on the nails to               
 avoid injury, chemical reactions and the possibility of a client              
 developing a fungal or bacterial infection under the nail plate.              
 A nail tech must learn to recognize a client who is having a                  
 chemical or allergic reaction to certain products.  They must also            
 recognize an infection or disease affecting a nail in order to                
 avoid reactions.  She should also know when to refer a client to a            
 physician or dermatologist.                                                   
 MS. JOSTEN said those are some of the main issues.  She stressed              
 that without education of the following certain guidelines, a                 
 person cannot be considered a professional in this industry and               
 practice as a nail technician safely.  Licensing should be a                  
 requirement and should be broken down into three categories with              
 different (indisc.) requirements for each.  (1)  A manicurist is a            
 person who can preform a basic manicure or pedicure and apply                 
 polish to the nails.  They can also provide the service of a hot              
 lack manicure; (2)  A nail artist is a person who can preform a               
 manicure or a pedicure and also apply nail art to the nail; and (3)           
 A nail technician is a person who can preform a manicure or                   
 pedicure, apply nail art and can apply artificial extensions to the           
 nail with the use of different products and applications.                     
 Number 2092                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON asked what happens in a situation where a                
 person may be a resident of a pioneer home and a nurse or a nurse             
 practitioner does this on behalf of a client.  He asked if they               
 would need to have a manicurist license.                                      
 MS. STRANAK explained the pioneer home in the Mat-Su area has gone            
 ahead and looked at their nail technician to be licensed in another           
 state before they can go ahead and work on one of their residents.            
 Number 2122                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked how many different types of chemicals are used            
 that would be considered dangerous or hazardous.                              
 MS. JOSTEN indicated there are at least eight of them.  She noted             
 she has experienced problems such as allergic reactions around the            
 finger tips with redness and rashes developing.  Certain people are           
 allergic to certain products.  Ms. Josten informed the committee              
 she has developed respiratory problems and asthma from breathing              
 certain chemicals.  There needs to be adequate ventilation.                   
 CHAIRMAN KOTT referred to when those symptoms occur and asked what            
 type of solutions she uses.                                                   
 MS. JOSTEN said they are usually referred to a physician.                     
 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA said he would assume a nail technician falls            
 under the statute of manicuring.  MS. JOSTEN indicated that is                
 correct.  Representative Kubina said they would all have to be                
 licensed under this.  Ms. Josten said that is correct.                        
 Number 2200                                                                   
 CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,              
 Department of Commerce and Economic Development, came before the              
 committee to answer questions on HB 73.                                       
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if the existing board has an opinion on           
 the additional responsibilities.                                              
 MS. REARDON said the current Board of Barbers and Hairdressers does           
 support licensing of manicurists.  She explained the fiscal note              
 reflects a neutral impact on the budget gap.  As with all of the              
 programs within the division, the license fees are expected to                
 cover the costs of the program.  It becomes complicated because the           
 fiscal note just shows the additional costs that the division will            
 incur, but the actual license fees charged to the licensees also              
 would include their share of the activities that the division is              
 currently doing.  The administrative and board costs are already              
 being incurred so they wouldn't ask for more expenditure authority            
 to spend that money a second time.  She noted they will charge the            
 manicurists a share of that.  What will happen is the barbers,                
 hairdressers and other licensees fees will be reduced a little bit            
 because there will now be more people to spread out those overhead            
 costs to.                                                                     
 Number 2288                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN KOTT noted there is information in the committee packets             
 which indicates that the board is in unanimous support of the bill.           
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred to page 4 of the fiscal note and             
 asked if the indirect costs reduced to other programs is                      
 $26,538.20.  He asked Ms. Reardon if that is what she is referring            
 to as far as spreading the fees.                                              
 MS. REARDON explained the very first year that the program is in              
 effect, fiscal year 97 if it passes this session, the division                
 won't charge the individual manicurists for the division's indirect           
 costs because they have already included that in everyone else's              
 fees.  It's too late to lower them when they were charged the fees            
 last month.  It included money to cover the division's entire                 
 indirect costs.  That is why they are only charging the Board of              
 Barbers and Hairdressers indirect costs for FY 98.  She referred to           
 FY 97 and said they're going to get a free ride because there is no           
 sense in over collecting, they've already been built into everyone            
 else's fees.  Ms. Reardon referred to FY 98 and said by then they             
 would have hoped to have lowered everybody else's fees to                     
 compensate for this new bank of payers.  The indirect costs reduced           
 to other programs is supposed to be the $26,000.  Ms. Reardon said            
 you don't see the indirect costs on the front page because they're            
 not new expenditures, they aren't going to hire any more                      
 bookkeepers, receptionists or directors.                                      
 Number 2431                                                                   
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT said the fiscal note is predicated on the fact            
 that there are an X number of pedicure salons.  One person on                 
 teleconference alluded to the fact that indeed there are going to             
 be some nurse practitioners or others in nursing or pioneer homes.            
 He asked if that would make a difference in the fiscal note.                  
 MS. REARDON said they had to make a guess as to how many                      
 manicurists there would be.  It is very hard to know until you                
 start licensing something.  On the front page of the fiscal note in           
 the box on the bottom, they guessed about 590.  If that guess is              
 low, then they will probably try to raise the (indisc.) or increase           
 their expenditure authority to reflect exam fee pass throughs.                
 [End of tape].                                                                
 TAPE 96-13, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 011                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN KOTT said they essentially doubled the number of business            
 licenses that currently exist.                                                
 MS. REARDON said that is correct.  She said if there is an                    
 individual business that does manicures, there is probably at least           
 an average of two people.                                                     
 Number 031                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER asked if this is annual license.                        
 MS. REARDON explained it is a two year license.                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER referred to the transitional provision on               
 page 6, line 28, and said there appears to be a grandfather clause            
 but it is only 12 months.  He asked if they are grandfathering                
 people in that have satisfactorily completed 350 hours last year,             
 but those same people would have to get a license the following               
 year regardless of their previous....                                         
 MS. REARDON explained this is qualification for a license.  You               
 have to have done 350 hours within the past 12 months.  You'll                
 still get a two year license.  She said it does grandfather them in           
 as eligible to be licensed if they have 350 hours within the last             
 12 months, but the license that they then pay for now that they're            
 qualified for will extend for two years into the future.                      
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked if they have to take the examine                
 MS. REARDON explained they did and that is on line 31.                        
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said they're really not grandfathered in.             
 MS. REARDON explained they don't have to go to school.  She noted             
 it was an incorrect term to say grandfathered in.                             
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER questioned whether there will be any                    
 exceptions for someone doing the work and not having to have a                
 MS. REARDON indicated there wouldn't be exceptions.                           
 Number 103                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE KOTT asked if there was a reciprocity clause that              
 would allow someone from out of state, who has taken a similar                
 exam, to be grandfathered in the program.  He questioned whether or           
 not other states license manicurists.                                         
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON pointed out that all but eight states license            
 MS. REARDON noted she didn't know the answer to the question of               
 there being a reciprocity clause.                                             
 Number 158                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he thought a cosmetologist had taken             
 various courses that have a higher level of expertise.                        
 MS. REARDON explained that people who currently have hairdressing,            
 cosmetology or barbering licenses may be doing manicuring because             
 it is an unlicensed activity.  There is usually a little bit of               
 manicurist training given, but it isn't required.  They may have              
 some training in manicuring.                                                  
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG questioned how the class B misdemeanor,               
 being a sanction, would work.                                                 
 MS. REARDON explained it is true that almost of the licensing areas           
 on licensed activities are class B misdemeanors.  In some cases it            
 is a class A misdemeanor.  She said it is currently the same                  
 situation for barbering and hairdressing, concert promoters, etc.             
 Ms. Reardon referred to HB 457, introduced by Representative James,           
 and said it would give the division civil fining authority for all            
 of the areas of licensing.  If HB 457 passed, would allow the                 
 department to fine unlicensed people up to $5,000 and give them a             
 Administrative Procedures Act hearing within the department and not           
 have to go through the court system.  She noted that is something             
 the department supports.                                                      
 Number 325                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN KOTT referred to Section 5 and said it talks about the               
 period of apprenticeship required to qualify an applicant for a               
 license to practice manicuring which is 350 hours.  He asked how              
 the number 350 figure was chosen.  Chairman Kott said the                     
 reciprocity probably wouldn't apply if we compared hours to hours             
 from other states to our statute if it were to pass.  He said he              
 believes only 16 other states have a requirement for 350 hours or             
 Number 362                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said 350 is an average number across the rest            
 of the states.  He pointed out some states have higher numbers.  He           
 said out of 44 states, 11 require 350 hours, 11 require 300 hours,            
 1 requires 400 hours and 4 require 500 hours.  He noted there is              
 some background information in the committee files.  Representative           
 Brice said they want fairly high standards.  Several schools                  
 already include 350 hours as part of their regular curriculum.  It            
 was a number that the schools approached him with.                            
 Number 435                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked how many manicurist schools there are           
 in Alaska.                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he doesn't believe that there are                   
 specific schools.  He pointed out there are specific federal                  
 standards that establish certain backgrounds as far as establishing           
 appropriate manicure curriculum.  It is his understanding that the            
 schools do provide that amount of training prior to graduation.               
 Number 515                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA moved that the proposed amendment be adopted            
 on page 6, lines 20 to 24.                                                    
 CHAIRMAN KOTT said there is a motion to move Amendment 1, 9-                  
 LS0358\G, Lauterbach, 2/26/96.                                                
 Number 522                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER objected.                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he has two simple changes to the                    
 amendment.  On line 9, strike the word "massage," and on line 14,             
 strike the word "massaging" and insert "massage treatment or".  He            
 stated the purpose of the amendment is to make it very clear that             
 massage treatment is not defined as providing service that would be           
 provided a manicurist.                                                        
 Number 590                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN KOTT said Amendment 1 is amended.  He said there is a                
 motion to amend Amendment 1.  He asked if there was an objection to           
 the amendment to the amendment.                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said he objects for the purpose of                    
 discussion.  He asked if "massage treatment" is a term of art.                
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he is trying to delineate to act of                 
 massage or getting a massage treatment is something that people               
 often pay for.  He pointed out there is a masseuse in the room who            
 can answer whether massage treatment is a term of art.                        
 Number 649                                                                    
 JO ELLEN HANRAHAN, Masseuse, noted she is a licensed massage                  
 therapist in New York State and is nationally certified.  She                 
 stated, for the record, that she works for the Department of                  
 Environmental Conservation and wants to be clear that she is not              
 speaking on behalf of the department.  Ms. Hanrahan said she agrees           
 with Representative Elton's wording of massage treatment and said             
 it is a term used within the field.  She said she thinks it would             
 be appropriate to say "massage" but "massage treatment" would do              
 the same thing.                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON said he wouldn't have an objection to not                
 including the word "treatment."                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said that isn't what he is objecting to.              
 He said he is looking at the existing language.                               
 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked if there was an objection to the amendment to             
 the amendment.                                                                
 Number 737                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG withdrew his objection.                               
 CHAIRMAN KOTT said hearing no objection, Amendment 1 was before the           
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER withdrew his objection to Amendment 1.                  
 Number 760                                                                    
 MS. HANRAHAN asked if this would mean that people who are in                  
 nursing homes will have to hire a manicurist to cut their nails.              
 She said as a child of an elderly parent, she doesn't want to add             
 to her health care costs in having a manicurist come in cut her               
 parent's nails.  She asked if somebody would be in jeopardy if they           
 are a sweet person and sit down and paint her mother's nails.                 
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that is if the person receives fees for             
 that activity or if her mother pays them to do that.                          
 MS. HANRAHAN questioned if it was on the medical record that                  
 cutting her mother's nails was a treatment that the nurses aid gave           
 and charged it through Medicare.                                              
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG they would be employees of the state and              
 would be acting within the scope of their employment, but they'd be           
 under the statutory requirements.                                             
 CHAIRMAN KOTT said he doesn't believe that we license employees of            
 the state.                                                                    
 Number 928                                                                    
 MS. REARDON said they do license nurse aids who work in licensed              
 facilities which would be hospitals, nursing homes and pioneer                
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said he thinks the issue could be addressed in           
 Section 7, change the wording to read, "The board may by regulation           
 create areas of limited professional licensing in the area of                 
 cosmetology and manicure.  Any limitation shall be stated on the              
 license."  He said he would suggest that if somebody is coming into           
 the pioneer homes to do these things for a fee that they do need to           
 be licensed.  On the other hand, it isn't his intent, nor is it the           
 intent of the people involved with the bill, to stop a nurse from             
 providing care.                                                               
 Number 900                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG referred the committee to page 4, Section             
 10, lines 28-29 and said the committee may feel easier.                       
 MS. REARDON noted the licensure by reciprocity is in Section 8,               
 page 4, line 9.  She said if you're licensed in another state then            
 you're entitled to a license without examination.                             
 Number 955                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked if there was an objection to Amendment 1.                 
 Hearing none, Amendment 1 was adopted.                                        
 REPRESENTATIVE ELTON made a motion to move HB 73, as amended, with            
 attached fiscal notes and individual recommendations out of                   
 CHAIRMAN KOTT asked if there was an objection.  Hearing none, CSHB
 73(L&C) was moved from the Labor and Commerce Committee.                      

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