Legislature(1997 - 1998)

03/06/1997 03:05 PM House HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 HB 146 - PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING                                           
                                                                               
 Number 0053                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the first item on the agenda was HB 146,             
 "An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary             
 students; and providing for an effective date."  He said this was             
 the second hearing on this bill.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 0084                                                                   
                                                                               
 CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School Boards,           
 said he appreciated the emphasis behind HB 146 to examine the issue           
 of student competency.  He wished to share some concerns about the            
 bill with the committee.  "Our ability to address student                     
 competency is at the root of what, everything that we do.  And if             
 student learning is in fact what we're trying to accomplish, in our           
 focus in the state, student competency is what we want to spend our           
 time and attention.  I think I would like to propose to you that              
 you exam student competency, not from an exit exam in the twelfth             
 year, but in a comprehensive fashion."                                        
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "As many of you know we have voluntary standards               
 that are before us in many of the areas that you state here.  My              
 concern would be that if we had a process that aligned our school             
 districts, through their curriculum, to address these standards in            
 such a fashion that we address the professional development of our            
 professional staff to prepare them to deliver that curriculum and             
 then invest it in, in an assessment that accurately measured the              
 progress at grades 4, 8 and 11.  I think, now, we have the making             
 of a comprehensive program that will examine the progress that is             
 being made, where remediation should be addressed and how we go               
 about addressing that in more of a, in a, systemic fashion."                  
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "My concern would be that to simply a put a, a                 
 competency test as a final step that does create some problems.  I            
 don't suggest that it's, it's totally bad idea because I think                
 student competency is a concern.  But I think the way we go about             
 addressing the issue could, could be enhanced by a more progressive           
 approach system wide.  I think we have the wherewithal to do that             
 with a, with standards that have been adopted.  I've, I've examined           
 them, I've worked with them closely, I think they're appropriate.             
 The question would, would have to be what be the appropriate                  
 measure that suggests; what is it we want our kids to know, how do            
 we know that they are obtaining those skills, what is the                     
 curriculum in place to address that and the whole issue of                    
 professional development.  We have a system now, in terms of                  
 certification, that allows people to be certified to teach in                 
 school based on their elementary and secondary certification.  What           
 we are going to be asking for in these standards, and with this               
 assessment, will be specific areas of knowledge and what have we              
 done to prepare this current work force to address the needs that             
 we may be requiring of them?  I think it is an important issue; how           
 do we prepare our people to focus on what we think is important,              
 how do we assist them through the curriculum, curriculum                      
 development process, and what would be the measure, an accurate               
 measure, based on Alaska's needs."                                            
                                                                               
 Number 0304                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "So, in closing, I would just say if we took a look            
 at the issue of student competency, not necessarily from an exit              
 exam, but from an entire systemic point of view and take a look at            
 what we expect our kids to know at the fourth, eighth and eleventh            
 grade.  How we could be assured that they were receiving the                  
 instruction in an appropriate fashion and how we measure it, I                
 think, is critical.  So, with that I would say I appreciate your              
 efforts to take a look at student competency.  I think there are              
 ways that we can go about doing it and these ways will cost money.            
 Didn't want to leave you without bringing up the money issue,                 
 right?  But, but my concern would be that if we really want to                
 accomplish something and it may have some costs involved, do we               
 ignore what we really want to accomplish because of the dollars or            
 do we look at that as an investment and move forward and try and              
 accomplish that.  I will try to answer any questions you might                
 have, Mr. Chairman."                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 0356                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN thought he heard Mr. Rose express concern            
 about whether the current teachers would be able to teach our                 
 children what they need to know.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 0389                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I think we have excellent teachers in our                     
 classrooms right now.  The question has to be, what is it that they           
 are going to be asked to teach.  And if we describe that through              
 curriculum, what are we doing to prepare our people to best address           
 that curriculum through professional development.  We have quality            
 people in our classrooms right now, but if you are asking them to             
 accomplish something, what are we doing to prepare them to do                 
 that."                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 0412                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if we, as an educational system, have              
 been pumping out students, then why don't we know what is going to            
 be expected of a student in grades 4, 8 or 11 in order to compete             
 nationally.  It should have been something that was incumbent on              
 our system from its inception.  If Alaska is pumping out in one               
 direction and the nation is going the other way, we should know               
 this.  We should know what students need to accomplish to be                  
 competitive in science, math, English and other core subjects.                
 Number 0467                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "As I take a look at the system right now, we have             
 varying degrees of assessment, in terms of how we're progressing.             
 What we're suggesting with the standards that are, have been                  
 adopted, is that we agree that there are certain things that our              
 kids should, should know and there should be a measure as to, at              
 what points they should know it.  We don't currently have an                  
 assessment that really identifies that.  The other thing would be             
 this whole issue curriculum development, we currently do that now             
 based on a local level, the whole idea behind the standards were to           
 give people the voluntary initiative to step out and make some                
 progress and some of our school districts have.  But, I will tell             
 you that these are being done on limited funds in certain pockets             
 across the state."                                                            
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "As you well know, many have told you, many of our             
 school districts suffer under the weight of a 30 percent loss in              
 buying power.  I know you've heard that before, but the reality has           
 come to the fore.  Many of our school districts and I will tell               
 you, many of them will not be able to exist another five years,               
 compared to the last ten that they've come through.  These, these             
 are some critical issues that we have to face, they're coming to us           
 in a number of ways, but I'll stay on your assessment."                       
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "If we had an accurate assessment and we had an                
 investment in curriculum and professional development, you'd have             
 the makings of the accountability that you're looking for and that            
 is what I want to propose to you today.  If it is accountability              
 that you want, based on student performance, an accurate                      
 measurement, an investment in curriculum development and                      
 professional development, at least some assistance because of the             
 weight we're under in terms of static levels of funding would be a            
 tremendous aid and I think it would bear results."                            
                                                                               
 Number 0573                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER referred to testimony by the Department           
 of Education (DOE), school administrators and representatives of              
 teachers saying that if we are going to test student competency to            
 see if basic knowledge has been imparted by the time they have                
 reached the end of the instructional period, we have to teach the             
 teachers how to do this and we've got to develop these standards.             
 He said it begs the questions of what have they been doing for the            
 last fifty years.  He questioned what has been taught if we have              
 got to instruct teachers on how to teach the basic fundamentals of            
 the four areas that this bill addresses.  There was no doubt in his           
 mind that systematically something has to be put into place, so               
 that we don't inadvertently take advantage of kids.  Kids who it              
 appears haven't had the benefit of somebody sitting down and saying           
 what is it we want them to learn, what is it we have to teach to              
 get them to learn this and then test them on that.  He said this              
 appeared to be very basic training principles.  If we haven't been            
 doing that, he agreed we would have to set up some time to                    
 implement it.  If we have to instruct teachers on this, he                    
 questioned where the teachers or administrators would have gone to            
 school.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 0677                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said these are the frustrations he is hearing           
 from people in his district.  It would appear, in order to test               
 what we had hoped the school systems were providing, we need to               
 start from scratch.                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 0719                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I am sure Representative Porter we're not talking             
 about your kids or my kids.  Because our kids got some of that good           
 education, but some of my kids have kids who went to school with              
 them who didn't get that for a host of reasons.  Society has                  
 changed the way we think, changed the way we live and it should               
 change the way we instruct our kids.  Our needs have changed and I            
 think that if we are going to take a look at what, what kids need             
 to be successful in the future, I think it begs the question do we            
 have a set of standards that, that are, are appropriate today and             
 not necessarily over the last fifty years.  I will tell you that              
 our school system has turned some of the brightest minds in the               
 world, we have done a fine job.  But the demographics, and the                
 studies will show, that there are areas that we need to do some               
 work in.  There are areas of the population that are being                    
 unaddressed in our current system, we need to make some of these              
 changes."                                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "So, I won't debate with you that, that you have the           
 right to expect performance with all the money that has been paid             
 in by the state in terms of an education.  I think you have that              
 right.  The question has to be; how do we go about doing it to meet           
 the needs of all the kids and that is where I'm coming from.  I'd,            
 I'd like to take a look at how we address the largest portion of              
 our need for all the kids."                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 0791                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a letter from a constituent taking him             
 to task about this issue.  The letter was someone who had graduated           
 from the Anchorage school district.  Eight, ten or eleven of her              
 family members graduated from an Alaskan school district and have             
 all become successful contributing members of society.  There are             
 students who are doing a wonderful job.  He related his experiences           
 of speaking to a high school in his district, the government                  
 classes.  Invariably there are two or three kids who are asleep at            
 their desk.  He questioned if the $7,500 for their motel was worth            
 it.  He asked the students in the class whether in five years, they           
 would be willing to pay an income tax so that someone can have a              
 $7,500 desk to sleep behind.  He shared Mr. Rose's concern about a            
 blanket indictment regarding everyone who attends Alaska schools,             
 there are some very good students.  He questioned what we were                
 going to do about those who choose not to accept their                        
 responsibility.  If students can not achieve the level that is                
 deemed appropriate, then they will have to live with those                    
 consequences.   Those who are unable to meet those standards will             
 receive help to be able to meet them.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 0884                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN asked why grades 4, 8 and 11 were             
 chosen.                                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 0895                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I think it has been determined that those are the             
 areas that would be appropriate for the measure to see if people              
 are meeting the standard.  The whole ideas here is to give an                 
 expectation to parents as to what their child will be expected to             
 know at those appropriate grade levels of 4, 8 and 11.  That should           
 be the area that we, that we access."                                         
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked who determined this.                             
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "By the standards.  There was a whole discussion               
 behind the state standards that were put together that there should           
 be areas that we should be able to determine.  In the early                   
 discussion the ideas is what do, what level of a expectation should           
 a parent have of their youngster.  And a parent should be able to             
 know that, that the grades levels of 4, 8 and 11 certain                      
 competencies, competencies should be attained and so that was, the,           
 the the premise of my comment.  It could be however you want to               
 design it.  The whole idea is that as you progress through the                
 process, if there is an expectation we need some idea that we are             
 meeting that expectation."                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 0950                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if there were tests that students                
 currently take at those grade levels, for instance the California             
 Achievement Test (CAT) test which is administered to fourth                   
 graders.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 0961                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "There are some tests that are given right now                 
 throughout the school system, again the point is are they                     
 correlated to a set of standards.  Well, there is, there is a lot             
 of conjecture to that, there is a lot of discussion.  The whole               
 idea is that do we clearly understand what we expect from kids,               
 have we designed a curriculum to instruct them in that area, have             
 we prepared ourselves to deliver that level of instruction and how            
 do we measure it.  Those are the issues, you can put in whatever              
 form that you want, but if you have an expectation, how do we                 
 assure ourselves that we have reached, that we reach the                      
 expectation and monitor the system to assure that people are                  
 progressing?"                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 0991                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said if we were to test competency levels              
 early on in the educational progress, then it would give us an                
 adequate time for remedial instruction.  Allowing the system, at              
 the fourth grade level, to find out where a student's weaknesses              
 are and address those weaknesses and make sure they are still on              
 track in grades 8 and 11, rather than testing them when they leave.           
                                                                               
 Number 1047                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "yes, Mr. Chairman, that's the design, to find any             
 deficiencies early."                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 1050                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that kids are able to learn more             
 information earlier on in their development.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1061                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "Most of the research that I've read, is that the              
 earlier you can start a child on the process of learning, the more            
 success you will enjoy.  That's, that is the reason behind the                
 early childhood and focusing on the, on the lower grades.  I would            
 say that the reason that the fourth grade was picked is because               
 that's about the period of time when you are going to be able to              
 identify the people have gained the skills necessary to progress on           
 successfully through the system.  If they're deficient, in any way,           
 the focus should be at that level rather than to eighth, eleventh             
 grade or even upon exit."                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1098                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN understood that if a child is not competent            
 in reading at an early level, it places a huge obstacle in their              
 ability to learn in many other areas throughout the rest of their             
 education.  If we are going to measure competency in the basics, it           
 should be at an early age so that a good foundation can be laid for           
 their ability to learn in the later years of school.                          
                                                                               
 Number 1136                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "yes, I concur.  The issue of remediation, the                 
 sooner, the better.  And in this case, absolutely if there is a               
 deficiency at the lower ages, lower grades, that's where you should           
 put your emphasis to try and remediate there, if they are going to            
 take full advantage of what is offered throughout the process."               
                                                                               
 Number 1152                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is a serious indictment of some school               
 districts choosing social promotions and not requiring students to            
 achieve a certain level of academic proficiency before they simply            
 push the student to upper grades.  Leaving in local control, we               
 have to allow school districts to make mistakes if they choose to             
 do so.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 1172                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY said he assumed that having a statewide               
 standard is a good idea.  He asked why the state Board of Education           
 has not adopted a state standard.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 1196                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "We, we developed standards in a public process down           
 through the years.  It started under the Hickel Administration.  It           
 was great hesitancy to address standards for fear that they'd be              
 mandated one day.  The only way we could get the discussion to take           
 place statewide was that this would voluntary.  Now I understand              
 the discomfort that causes a lot of people, voluntary standards.              
 However, a lot of people have put a lot of time and they see the              
 value in standards.  I, I, I am concerned that the mandatory nature           
 of these standards could cause some people to say, we knew it all             
 along.  Now I would say, from a personal point of view, whether               
 they are mandated or not, I've, I've reviewed the standards, I've             
 worked closely with them, I think they're good.  The question is              
 how we get there.  Some would say through accredidations, some                
 would say through an assessment, the end result is going to have to           
 be an assessment somehow to see how we're doing.  And so the                  
 suggestion I bring to you today is that if we, it's really student            
 competency that we're after, let's a look at some progressive way             
 that we can go about doing this in a systematic way that ensures              
 that we accomplish that.  I think early identification is critical.           
 So, I don't, I guess I didn't answer your question.  Why haven't              
 they mandated, or why don't they have the standards?"                         
                                                                               
 Number 1254                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY repeated his question, assuming it is a good             
 idea that we have a state standard, why is the legislature having             
 to write a statute to tell the school board how to do a good job.             
 He did not like to do that, he thought the school board would be              
 far more knowledgeable in the area of requirements for our                    
 educational institutions than the legislature.                                
 Number 1275                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I think the whole idea behind standards will, will,           
 will hinge on an assessment; how do we measure and then if you want           
 a positive response in terms of your measurement, what kind of an             
 investment do we make in terms of the curriculum and professional             
 development.  I think we covered that earlier, but it really hinges           
 on an assessment.  Do we have an assessment that will accurately              
 measure, that gives us an indication that this is how we move                 
 forward?  In the absence of that, school districts may try, but               
 there is no real universal measure, universal measure."                       
                                                                               
 Number 1306                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked how we could get from a time when we               
 went into school, were told what was expected of us, how well we              
 did was reflected in our report card, to where we are now.  He was            
 not casting aspersions on our school system.  He cited an example             
 of the California school system in the 1960s when they passed kids            
 out of high school with a sixth grade reading comprehension.  He              
 questioned how we could get ourselves in a position where educators           
 are asking the legislature to do something.  He said it is up to              
 the education experts to determine and implement standards.                   
                                                                               
 Number 1411                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "It's not my responsibility, it's our responsibility           
 in terms of what we expect from our kids and how they get their               
 education.  I will, I'll sing this song everywhere I go.  The point           
 is, is that we're looking for people to blame, they're out there,             
 they're everywhere.  But the point is, is that parents have an                
 interest, communities have an interest, the state has an interest,            
 kids have an interest and what we are trying to do, I believe, what           
 we're trying to do is open the gates to the American dream to as              
 many people as we can squeeze through there.  And if if you suggest           
 that the standards have gone down, possibly so.  But how many                 
 people are we moving through the gate?  I think there's a                     
 correlation there."                                                           
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I would say to you that it is in all of our                   
 interests to ensure that we raise the standard.  That we take a               
 look at how we go about doing that, but I will tell you the school            
 board at the local level can't do it by themselves nor can the                
 teachers, nor can the principals, nor the superintendent, the state           
 board, none of us can do it independently.  It will take all of us            
 working together on behalf of kids.  And that is what I, I would              
 ask you to to take, what is legislature's role, what role do you              
 play in trying to put together a system as I have just described to           
 you.  What is my role, I want to assume that role.  I think we all            
 do. So, I guess it comes down to this, what is our role in trying             
 to improve the quality of education for all the kids.  I am ready             
 to assume mine and I know you're ready to assume yours.  With that,           
 that would be my response to you.  How we've lowered our standard?            
 I don't know that we have.  I think we're moving a lot of people              
 through that gate."                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1485                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if we want to move people through the              
 gate by widening the gate, lowering the standards.  He said we have           
 standards, we know what they need to accomplish in order to                   
 succeed.  Maybe the problem has been that we haven't demanded that            
 this is the standard that we are going to have.  He said from his             
 personal experience, kids seem to rise to the level of expectation            
 that is demanded of them or lower their output if a lower                     
 expectation is demanded.  He asked if we have lowered the standard            
 to the point that kids don't care.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 1536                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "My response to that would be, perhaps, but I tend             
 to think that we, we are moving a lot of people through here, a lot           
 of them are very, very competent.  The question is do we need to              
 set a standard?  I would say yes, and that is what I propose, I               
 propose we set a standard."                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 1549                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said we are all in this together, we are not just              
 looking towards you as a representative of the school district and            
 saying that it is your problem, not our problem.  Because we are in           
 this together, the legislature is acting as a messenger of their              
 constituency to identify a problem.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1568                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if there is a law or a statute that                
 mandates that the university system admits any high school graduate           
 in the state.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1580                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it was just a university policy that they have            
 open admissions.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 1586                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he is not interested in assigning blame,            
 it just doesn't matter.  He expressed curiosity as to why all of a            
 sudden the legislature and the professionals are saying that it is            
 a good idea that we have a standard in place.  He questioned what             
 the goal was in the past.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1614                                                                   
 MR. ROSE said, "It didn't just come up, standards have been around            
 for some time.  It is very hard to a, to get the public to embrace            
 standards because I wouldn't say standards in general.  We have               
 come through a period of time when outcome based education was an             
 issue and that pretty much set us back as a state in terms of what            
 we could do, what the political will of the local constituencies              
 were.  So, so we've had some problems, but we've been talking about           
 standards for some time.  I think now that the issue has been on              
 the table before the public for some time, it's, it's readily                 
 acceptable.  These are some things that we have expectations of and           
 we'd like to try and accomplish.  The issue comes down to how do we           
 implement this into the system."                                              
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "Dollars are involved, assurances are involved.  The           
 issue of accountability is, is surely here, performance.  So,                 
 within all of that, I think we come up with some solutions, but               
 Representative Vezey we didn't just come up with standards, they've           
 been with us for some time, but it is very difficult to get a                 
 system that has been designed largely around A,B,C,D and F to                 
 change to any other way of thinking whether it be portfolios, or              
 A,B,C or nobody fails or whatever measure you want to use.  It's              
 been a lot of rhetoric out here.  The fact of the matter is, is               
 that we know what kids need, can we get it to them, can we assure             
 ourselves that they are getting it and that's, that's where the               
 discussion is right now.  I think that your bill is an important              
 one because it addresses competency, how we go about that I would             
 suggest we need to take a closer look so we're appropriate in our             
 measure."                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1679                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE asked if we weren't suggesting outcome               
 based education here.  Isn't this saying that the state will                  
 mandate outcome based education.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 1700                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "The term outcome based education has many                     
 connotations.  I think what we're talking about here is we are                
 going to provide an education.  What is the outcome that we expect?           
 Now in that sense, here is the standard, what would be the outcome            
 of this education?  So, I would agree with you, yes, but the                  
 connotation that this is some government effort to standardize                
 everyone in the way they think, I think is unfair.  Basically we              
 know what kids need to be successful into the future and we're                
 struggling right now with how we're going to provide that forum and           
 still do it in the public forum.  So, yes, I would agree with you.            
 It is an outcome that we're looking for, but not with the negative            
 connotation of outcome based education."                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1739                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented that, basically, everyone is saying            
 that we want standards established.  This bill says one test and              
 what Mr. Rose is proposing is three or four tests throughout the              
 years and added that he is aware that it is more than just three              
 tests.  It is a question of establishing a system that can track              
 students and their progress through the grade system.  He asked if            
 there was any specific language that would allow us to get from a             
 singular exit exam to the type of system that people are                      
 recommending.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1788                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I do have a design with the components that I, I              
 spoke of earlier and I'm looking at, at the issue of accountability           
 and investment in terms of what it is that we're trying to                    
 accomplish.  As I mentioned earlier, it's not just the three exams,           
 it's the standards that we align ourselves to, it's the curriculum            
 that needs to be developed and it's the professional development to           
 ensure that our people are well prepared to deliver this, now,                
 it's, it's a cycle.  It's a cycle.  First of all it's the                     
 curriculum, professional development and assessment and the cycle             
 starts again.  I think it's critical that we, that we move in this            
 area.  We're doing some preliminary work right now.  You understand           
 that there are a number of proposals before you.  The Department of           
 Education is very concerned about the whole idea of accreditation.            
 There's merit to that.  That it will end up in some kind of an                
 assessment and so, I would propose to you that, yes, there are some           
 solutions.  I would like to be able to bring them to you at some              
 point in time.  I'm trying to get some numbers put together.  There           
 are a lot of people who are very concerned about this effort.  If             
 we're going to move into an area of testing, let's do it in the               
 most appropriate way that we can to accomplish what it is that                
 we're set out to do, which is standards."                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1841                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to a nationally syndicated comic                
 strip which described the unwillingness to fail children because of           
 possible psychological damage that might occur.  He said this                 
 appears to be a national problem, it is our problem.  He asked if             
 things had been done in other places that appeared to work to                 
 alleviate this problem.                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 1930                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "There are other models that have been used.  I, I             
 would say because of the demographics of Alaska, there are some               
 things that we could, that we could design into our program that              
 would be Alaskan appropriate.  I think it's really important.  I              
 wouldn't suggest that we recreate the wheel from scratch.  We                 
 should take some of the things that work, but we should also                  
 examine if they're appropriate for us.  And I would imagine that              
 that would be part of the process.  I do appreciate your comment.             
 Referring to a comic strip, they're, they're abound in the nation.            
 I think the issue is squarely before us as a nation; what is it               
 that we expect our kids need to have into the future so we can                
 maintain our world competitiveness.  It's an issue.  And closer to            
 home, what do we have to have, in terms of an assurance, that our             
 kids will be economically viable within the world that they're                
 going to moving into.  So, these are issues that need to be                   
 addressed somehow.  We simply need, as government, have to have               
 some baseline that we gage to see that the dollars we're spending             
 are going to that cause.   That people are being prepared for the             
 future."                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1971                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked, if that is the case, could he come to             
 the legislature with two or three proven track records that will              
 work toward what it sounds like we are all hoping to achieve.                 
                                                                               
 Number 1983                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there are 21 other states that have exit exams,           
 there are examples.                                                           
                                                                               
 Number 1989                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked, if there are two or three avenues to              
 get where we want to be, would Mr. Rose come back to the                      
 legislature and present the information.  He could say that instead           
 of spending the current amount per capita we're going to have to              
 spend five times that much or two times that much.  He asked for              
 specific numbers regarding cost.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 2009                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. ROSE said, "I understand the issue is one of accountability,              
 it's one of performance and I would like to be able to come back              
 with you with some suggestions."                                              
                                                                               
 Number 2016                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to written testimony located in the                   
 packets, an NEA-Alaska position statement and written testimony               
 from the Department of Education (DOE) addressing concerns that               
 they have regarding HB 146.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 2031                                                                   
                                                                               
 JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA-             
 Alaska), wanted to address some concerns that he had.  The first              
 concern was testing.  Every classroom in Alaska has teachers that             
 evaluate and test.  There are pre-tests, post-tests, testing is               
 absolutely covered.  Children are assessed every day in classrooms            
 throughout Alaska.  Children are retained.  To retain a child in              
 Alaska is a cumbersome process that is dictated by the parents.               
 Parents make the final decision about whether or not the child                
 should be retained, but agreed that the decision should be there.             
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 2098                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said the second issue is teacher inservice and whether or             
 not teachers are prepared.  He said teachers in Alaska are                    
 prepared.  If his statistics were right, Alaska has the highest               
 rate of masters degrees and advanced degrees as compared to any               
 other state in the union.  Inservice is still provided, it happens            
 every year, in every district in Alaska and rightfully so.  In a              
 lot of districts, teaching staff are taking over the inservice                
 mechanism to make sure that inservices provide what they need and             
 what they feel is appropriate.  He referred to police officers and            
 said they go to training on a regular basis and he would say that             
 is appropriate.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 2149                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said there are two things which are important to remember             
 in a state mandated assessment.  The first thing is that we have              
 voluntary standards which are not statewide, we do not teach the              
 same things from district to district.  We teach different things             
 in different ways at different levels.  This state has made a                 
 decision that local control is more important than mandated                   
 statewide standards for education.  This subject needs to be                  
 debated at a separate time.  He agreed with Mr. Rose that there are           
 a couple of ways to do this.  We can give an exit test that will in           
 effect mandate some kind of statewide standards or we can upfront             
 say that at these particular checkpoints we believe this is what              
 every child in Alaska should know.  We need to be cognizant of                
 those options.                                                                
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said the second major point is the disparity of resources.            
 Some schools are new and contain libraries, equipment, et cetera              
 and other schools do not have these resources.  If we are going to            
 look at some kind of blanket statewide system that mandates                   
 standards, we need to address the disparity question.                         
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said, if we look at what happens in schools around the                
 nation and schools within Alaska, there are some things that                  
 weren't there when a lot of us were in school or at least they                
 weren't very prevalent.  Things such as drugs, alcohol, violence              
 and non-parenting parents.   Schools are the mirror of our society.           
 This is why our jails have more people in them then they did in               
 1950.  It is not because of the failure of schools, so much as the            
 failure of society to identify those kinds of things that change              
 that behavior.  All of those things come into play.  If we are                
 really going to test kids at the other end, then he agreed that we            
 need to back through the grades and look at those kinds of things.            
                                                                               
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said it doesn't do any good to fail a senior.  It gives the           
 public some confidence that those people who did pass will do well,           
 but those people who do pass will do well whether or not they take            
 the test or not.  Alaska has the highest per capita percentage of             
 National Merit Scholars.  Millions of dollars are given to seniors            
 in the form of scholarships.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 2287                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. CYR referred to, "Money Magazine", which said that public                 
 education is the best buy in America today.  There are a number of            
 articles out there today.  A book titled, The Manufactured Crisis,          
 talks about how well public education is doing.  The Bracey Report            
 basically runs through the good things that are occurring in                  
 education.  To present public education as a place where kids can't           
 spell "school" misrepresents the truth.  We are seeing some                   
 amazingly good things happening in schools against some horrible              
 conditions.                                                                   
                                                                               
 TAPE 97-15, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 0000                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he heard the testimony to be that maybe             
 we don't need the best of everything in order to have high                    
 standards of expectation.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 0060                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said you could put kids in a Quonset hut, give them the               
 yellow pages and some of those kids will turn out to be                       
 professionals.  He asked if this did justice to the bulk of                   
 children.  There are kids who are going to succeed and will succeed           
 because of us or in spite of their parents, pressures of society or           
 in spite of whatever happens.  He agreed that there has to be a               
 balance of economics in this state, the money and resources should            
 be used in a way that does the most for most of the students.                 
                                                                               
 Number 0131                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said if we have been throwing money at education, he has              
 not seen it.  He referred to a report by the NorthWest Regional               
 Labs, which NEA didn't commission, which talks about the effects of           
 money on education.  He said he could provide a copy for the                  
 committee.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 0163                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if there was a divergence that occurred            
 between kindergarten and twelfth grade which could determine                  
 whether some kids needed to learn how to conjugate verbs, while               
 other kids did not need to know this.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 0237                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. CYR said to some extent we do that, especially in the urban               
 areas.  We have a wealth of programs ranging from advanced                    
 placement college prep, vocational technical programs to some basic           
 programs.  He did not feel that we did enough of this.  We need to            
 be careful, because he did remember the days of tracking kids.  To            
 some extent you got placed into the kind of program based on where            
 your parents fit in economically.  It didn't matter what kind of              
 education you received because you weren't going to be much anyway.           
 We have to make every opportunity available for all kids.  Kids and           
 their parents, at the high school level, make some pretty                     
 intelligent decisions.  He would like to think that we can provide            
 some quality vocational education programs for everyone, but added            
 that those programs are expensive.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 0331                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he wanted to open up discussion among the                 
 committee members.  An adjustment needed to be made on HB 146 as              
 far as the effective date was concerned.  He said students are                
 tested on a regular basis and said he took some offense to the                
 notion that this would be a "thump test".  Currently the bill calls           
 for an effective date of July 1, 1997.  It did not seem                       
 appropriate, to him, for next year's senior to suddenly find out              
 that the rules have changed.  He shared his confidence that the               
 system will respond and the teachers, the parents and the students            
 can respond.  Parents have been left out in this discussion.  There           
 was a problem that was created some years ago, the "Lake Wobegone"            
 syndrome where all the children are above average.  A teacher had             
 a great deal of temerity to suggest, to a parent, that their                  
 student wasn't performing at an acceptable level and should be                
 retained.  There were also instances where a parent wanted to                 
 retain their child and the school district said the student should            
 be passed on to the next grade.                                               
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, with local control ideas in mind, he is not as           
 concerned as to how the school gets a student to a level of                   
 competency that we have a right to expect in high school graduates.           
                                                                               
 Number 0510                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked at what year are we going to begin                 
 testing.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 0537                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he would want to back up the testing to begin             
 administering the exam in the year 2000, impacting this year's                
 freshman class.  He said a five year window would not be too                  
 generous, setting an effective date of 2002.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 0561                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the year 2002 would be a good time to set           
 the effective date.  He said, despite the fact that there are 21              
 states that have exit examinations, the DOE is going to have to               
 study what, where and how this test is going to be administered               
 statewide.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 0613                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, to be fair to the students, they need a high             
 school period of time, four years.  The DOE has a year to choose a            
 vehicle, then the teachers know what it is that these students will           
 be expected to know.  The schools can begin to teach these students           
 so that in four years they will have a clear grasp of what the                
 expectations are.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 0652                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE expressed concern that, if we establish this             
 exit examination, DOE would make the test for the lowest common               
 denominator.  He asked if this issue should be dealt with as a                
 legislature or as a committee.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 0682                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he had some confidence that the DOE is going to           
 want to do what is best for students.  To create a test that is               
 virtually unfailable, is not going to do the students any service             
 at all.  If this type of test was created, then the legislature               
 would have to weigh in on the issue.  There are people who spend              
 their entire career creating tests.  Writing a good test is a very            
 challenging task and repeated that there are other states which               
 give exit tests.  We might have to adjust the test for Alaska.  He            
 expected that DOE would come back to the committee with a report as           
 to what the test is and where we are in the process.                          
                                                                               
 Number 0761                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, recognizing the problem we have in the            
 legislature of only being able to predict what we can control for             
 the next two years, this bill might possibly be phased in as                  
 opposed to being set out for the year, 2002.  As everyone                     
 mentioned, the first challenge is to establish what the standard              
 is.  What it is that we want a high school senior in this state to            
 be able to do in the core subjects.  He asked if we were going to             
 have different levels of these standards or if we were going to               
 have one size fits all.  He referred to police standards where it             
 was decided that one size did not fit all.  It didn't fit because             
 there were different expectations and levels of requirement for one           
 type of law enforcement as opposed to another, usually because of             
 the size of the community.                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, if this test was going to be valuable             
 at all, those kinds of decisions have to be made before you start             
 down the road.  We have to decide how we are going to develop a               
 curriculum to test for this and what kinds of inservices are going            
 to have to provided for teachers in order to get them to put things           
 into their lesson plans.                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 0900                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he wasn't aware that there was a large             
 problem within the state about local control.  At least in the                
 district that he represents, he did not think this would be a                 
 significant problem if all we are trying to do is say there are               
 four basic core areas of knowledge that kids should be proficient             
 in by the time they get through the system.  If a school district             
 wanted to emphasize something that is fine, but in these four areas           
 students need to meet or exceed the standards we set.  He said this           
 is how he sees the balance between mandatory and voluntary                    
 standards.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 0971                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would be happier having some                    
 presentation, this time next year, on the developed standards.  It            
 will answer the question of whether there is one or more standards,           
 what they are going to be and what they anticipate the challenges             
 will be in getting them implemented before we give an exit                    
 examination in the year 2000.                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 1032                                                                   
                                                                               
 ED EARNHART testified next via teleconference from Anchorage.  He             
 urged the committee to go easy on legislative mandates and do what            
 Mr. Rose talked about regarding curriculum, standards and                     
 implementation.  If these standards are working well, the problem             
 with the high school diploma will be addressed.  Students will not            
 arrive to high school without preparation.  To implement a test for           
 high school graduation around the state would be extremely unfair             
 and difficult.  To have a standard curriculum and to eventually               
 require that schools around the state utilize that curriculum                 
 around core subjects will allow you to have an exam.  The exam                
 should have already be taken care of, for most students, because              
 they will be tested in those areas anyway.                                    
                                                                               
 MR. EARNHART said support needs to be given to the DOE and they               
 need to be more assertive regarding the standards of the local                
 schools.  This idea that local school districts can voluntary                 
 choose the standards will not work.  One of the main reasons why it           
 won't work is because we have people who move around a lot in                 
 Alaska.  When these people are hurt, when they change from one                
 school to another, a standard curriculum idea is great with an                
 appropriate test to go with it.  He said HB 146 should not go                 
 through at this time.                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 1178                                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. EARNHART said he has 14 years of experience working in                    
 education in five different states.  He said Alaska does as good a            
 job as some other states and better than some, but we still need to           
 move on with improvements.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1219                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said basic knowledge is going to have to be              
 established statewide no matter at what minimum level the test is             
 set.  He expressed concern that some students do not do well on               
 tests.  He referred to the bell shaped curve.  Using the curve, one           
 of the Blue Angels pilots would be a failure.  There has to be a              
 way that educational experts can determine what is going to be the            
 best method or what the next best method would be to accomplish the           
 things needed and present them to the legislature.                            
                                                                               
 Number 1333                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE referred to concerns about the mandatory                 
 nature of the exam.  He suggested moving away from requiring the              
 test, in order to receive a diploma, to requiring a test for an               
 endorsement upon that diploma and in the high school transcripts.             
 Students, who are intending to advance their education, can have              
 recognition in their official transcripts while those who are not             
 necessarily interested in going on to advance their academic career           
 would not necessarily be subjected to the same test.  Those                   
 students who pass their classes might not necessarily need to be              
 tested.  Moving towards an endorsement program would allow those              
 students to show that they have a competency level in the core                
 subjects.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1415                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he was in general agreement, but added that we            
 need a set of standards so that students who graduate high school             
 in Fairbanks, Anchorage or Fort Yukon are capable of the same type            
 of competencies.  He did not want to become flexible around this              
 issue.  For those people whose only aspiration is ditch digging,              
 they don't need a high school diploma.  People need a high school             
 diploma and a basic competency to fully participate in our society.           
                                                                               
 Number 1486                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that people have different levels of                
 competencies in different areas.  If we don't go the endorsement              
 diploma route, then he would propose an amendment to delete                   
 mathematics.  He cited his difficulties in the area of mathematics.           
                                                                               
 Number 1528                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE expected the DOE to create a basic test.  If the               
 committee wanted to entertain the notion of an endorsed diploma, an           
 honors degree, he was perfectly willing to entertain such an idea.            
 The basic competencies are not aimed at people who are destined for           
 college, it is just the basic literacy level that we expect of all            
 members of our society to have.  So, they can fill out the job                
 application for the ditch digger, or they can fill out the job                
 application for BP (Alaska) Inc., or they can fill out an                     
 application for college.                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1558                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he agreed with eventually having some              
 type of specialty endorsement whether it is for mathematics,                  
 science, a foreign language or something else.  He would also                 
 support the notion that we should have a certain level of                     
 expectation, but perhaps we should let some areas of the state have           
 a longer time to reach that expectation.                                      
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER referred to a luncheon on mining where a                
 speaker talked about the impact of resource development in their              
 particular area of the state.  The speaker said they were                     
 successful in getting a large business to come into their region              
 and discuss plans for shareholder hire and local hire through the             
 cooperation of this business, the Red Dog Mine.  A year or so into            
 the operation, they found that folks available for work did not               
 have the basic education to meet the basic needs of the entry level           
 positions for mining.                                                         
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said this area of the state has since raised            
 their standards, provided the motivation for their kids and                   
 families to meet those standards because here was an opportunity              
 that needed this level of education.  The area has reportedly gone            
 from a fourth or fifth grade level of competency in their high                
 school graduates up to ninth or tenth grade level, because there              
 was some carrot out there that made it worth it.  Some school                 
 districts have not seen that carrot and have seen no real incentive           
 for reaching those standards.  He suggested an assessment to find             
 out where we are at be done first, followed by a forum that must be           
 met, within a period of time, to get people up to the standard.               
                                                                               
 Number 1688                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the incentive for a school district, to help              
 their students get to the level where they would be functionally              
 literate and meet the demands of the jobs available to them, would            
 be severely impacted by parents.  Especially if the school district           
 would do this assessment and find out that 20 percent, 30 percent,            
 40 to 50 percent of their high school graduates would not meet this           
 level of expectation.  He suggested that there is a carrot and a              
 stick.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 1733                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER agreed and added that, at some point in time,           
 they are going to have to meet this level of expectation, but let's           
 make it doable.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 1772                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the discussion is on an effective date of 2002,           
 but perhaps modifying that date based on what Representative Porter           
 suggested, a multiple effective date.  In July 1, 1998, we would              
 see the testing vehicle that the DOE develops.  The sophomore class           
 of that year would then know what the expectations were that they             
 would have to meet in order to receive their high school diploma.             
 He asked the committee if that should be included in a committee              
 substitute or if this could be done as a conceptual amendment.                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested a committee substitute.                        
                                                                               
 Number 1816                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would like to hear, from the folks              
 who would be implementing this test, the impression of what timing            
 would be required.  Recognizing that we would want to push people             
 to do it as soon as possible, it would be important to find out               
 what timing would be needed to integrate the curriculum and lesson            
 plans, to make sure the test was being taught in schools.                     
                                                                               
 Number 1851                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN concurred.  There are students, on course in             
 high school, who can't balance a checkbook.  If we give them the              
 expectations in 1998, there might be too much ground to cover to              
 pass that test.  We would probably have to fall back several years            
 in order to start moving this student forward.  We need to find out           
 how far back the experts feel they need to go, before they start              
 implementing the test.                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 1878                                                                   
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he has been lobbied by people saying they want            
 to do a pre-kindergarten screening.  He understood the concern, but           
 at some point you have to take off the bandage and you can do it              
 quickly or slowly.  He said the education community is going to               
 want to go pre-kindergarten.                                                  
 CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this bill would be held until Tuesday, March              
 11, 1997.  He would introduce a committee substitute with a                   
 multiple effective date.  One date would be relatively soon within            
 a year and a half requiring the DOE to have the test prepared.                
 Four years after that time will allow someone in the eighth grade             
 to prepare themselves to successfully pass the test if they want a            
 high school diploma.                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects