Legislature(1995 - 1996)

03/30/1995 02:10 PM House HES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
 HB 171 - COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION SERVES AT BOARD'S PLEASURE               
                                                                               
 Number 245                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE said the HESS Committee has previously heard this              
 bill.  An amendment was brought forward, and those concerns were              
 taken back to the bill's sponsor.  Co-Chair Bunde asked that the              
 bill and the amendment be addressed again.                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE TERRY MARTIN, sponsor of HB 171, said the major                
 concern addressed in the bill was to somehow get control of the               
 system of appointment by governors.  Governor Cooper did it, so did           
 Hickel and Governor Knowles.  The whole system of appointment is              
 being disregarded in the sense of continuity for officers.  In some           
 areas, this continuity is needed.  Some commissions need people               
 with one, two or five years experience.                                       
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said those commissioners are paid well, and             
 they should be paid well for their expertise.  Representative                 
 Martin has become very concerned.  In the most recent case, the               
 Commissioner of Education was paid very well in his contract, and             
 he was paid very well to resign.  This is a misuse of the system              
 and a misuse of public money.                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said if the person appointed was well                   
 qualified and worthy of special compensation, they should be                  
 allowed to serve the full four or five years of their appointment.            
 It is not right for a new Governor to be elected and call for all             
 resignations, and then pay the people to resign.  Usually, these              
 people receive a "$75,000 handshake" to leave the contract.  That             
 is a complete misuse of the system.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 360                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said the amendment seeks to defer the                   
 problem.                                                                      
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked a question about the bill.  He said it                   
 currently reads, "The commissioner serves at the pleasure of the              
 board and may not be appointed by the board for a term of office."            
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN realized that did not sound right.  He said             
 he has been reviewing that statement.  A term of office is a term             
 of office.  Representative Martin meant for it to mean that the               
 commissioner of education would complete his or her term.  The term           
 could not be cut off by a new governor.  Only the board, in this              
 particular case, should decide who is the executive director.                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said he then found out that did not solve the           
 problem.  He then inquired how many people in the past have been              
 paid off to resign early.  He asked if people felt multi-year terms           
 were a good idea in order to continue consistency throughout the              
 terms of gubernatorial administrations.  The Alaska Housing and               
 Finance Corporation (AHFC) is currently in a large mess.  In three            
 governors, the AHFC has seen three boards.  There has also been               
 four commissioners in the last two years.  This is ridiculous.                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN asked if the HESS Committee could devise a              
 permanent plan.  One of the incentives in getting a commissioner to           
 leave is to pay them $160,000 or some other amount to bow out of              
 their contract.  That completely destroys the legislators' efforts            
 and, in most cases, the intent of statutes which offset years of              
 service.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 497                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said the bill strictly deals with the                   
 Department of Education.  He felt, however, that all the                      
 commissioners should be protected.  Governor Knowles will get his             
 chance in the last two or three years.  However, some of the people           
 appointed recently who are just getting the hang of their job are             
 wiped out.  A new person is then appointed.                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE again read, "The commissioner of serves at the                 
 pleasure of the board and may not be appointed by the board for a             
 term of office."  He asked if that meant if the board wanted a                
 commissioner to serve from one governor's administration to                   
 another, the board could do that.                                             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said he would like, in this particular case,            
 to have the law follow as much as possible for the appointment to             
 be by the board.  The constitutional convention made it very clear            
 it wanted the board and the executive director to not be political            
 pawns.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 580                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY asked if therefore, the sentence in question should           
 be changed to "The commissioner serves at the pleasure of the board           
 and may not be removed by the board until his term is completed."             
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said he was after something like that.                  
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked what was a term.  He suggested the sentence be           
 shortened to "serves at the pleasure of the board."  That way, the            
 board could have the commissioner work for a week or for ten years.           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN asked if the new board should be able to get            
 rid of the old appointee who just got appointed with a new                    
 contract.  He asked if the state wants the Board of Education to be           
 independent of the governor.  There is a normal changeover of those           
 directors every three, four or five years so there is continuity.             
 It that is true, the board will then elect their own executive                
 director.  A new governor coming in cannot get rid of them.                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said again, to pay someone to resign is a               
 misuse of government money.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 670                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY asked if a commissioner is appointed by the current           
 governor, does the governor also appoint the board.                           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said there are only two cases where                     
 constitutionally the commissioner or the director is appointed by             
 the board.  Those two cases are the Department of Education and the           
 Department of Fish and Game.  Therefore, the Governor, indirectly             
 (through his new board), can appoint someone.                                 
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY asked if the Governor appoints a whole new board              
 when the commissioner comes on.                                               
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said that is part of the trouble now.  As               
 with other agencies, it completely destroys the continuity of                 
 offices.  It would be better to rotate the board, perhaps by                  
 appointing two new members every year.  If a new governor erases              
 the board, it may be that some members of the board have only                 
 completed five or six months in their position.                               
                                                                               
 Number 739                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE pointed out that what happened this year is the                
 commissioner refused to leave.  The Governor appointed a new board.           
 The commissioner serves at the pleasure of the board, and he was              
 paid to leave.                                                                
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY said that was her point.  If Representative Martin            
 does not want to make political appointments, that is fine as long            
 as the board is not politically appointed also.  If the board is              
 rotated through different appointments and different governors,               
 that is fine.                                                                 
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said one way to stop it is that people will             
 not voluntarily resign until they are given a large amount of money           
 and a sweet job.                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 756                                                                    
                                                                               
 TOM ANDERSON, Legislative Assistant, Representative Terry Martin's            
 Office, said the idea is that the state has a governor turnover               
 every four years.  There is also a turnover of the board.  But                
 currently, the law (which is being deleted in this bill) stipulates           
 the Department of Fish and Game and the Department of Education               
 appointments are not to exceed five years.  Therefore, the                    
 appointment "runs over" into another governor's term.                         
                                                                               
 MR. ANDERSON said HB 171 stipulates that as the state gets a new              
 governor, it gets a new Board of Education which has the right to             
 dismiss the commissioner without a contract.  Therefore, the                  
 commissioner serves at the pleasure of the board.  The board would            
 then pick the commissioner and may not be appointed by the board              
 for a term of office.  Therefore, the commissioner would not be               
 bound by this potential to have up to a five year service.                    
                                                                               
 MR. ANDERSON said it is confusing, but it does work.  Legal                   
 Services believes it works.  That would prevent the "$75,000                  
 handshake" from ever occurring again.                                         
                                                                               
 Number 857                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked to discuss the main bill before the amendment            
 was addressed.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 872                                                                    
                                                                               
 MARY HALLORAN, Legal Administrator, Office of the Attorney General,           
 Department of Law, said basically the Governor has offered similar            
 legislation in HB 174, also in the HESS Committee.  Everybody is              
 concerned that the Commissioner of Education, under current                   
 statute, is a contractual employee as opposed to being someone who            
 serves at the pleasure of either the board or the Governor.                   
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said HB 171 clearly changes that status to make the              
 Commissioner of Education like other commissioners who serve at the           
 pleasure of someone.  In this case, the state does not end up in a            
 situation where the commissioner does not meet the requirements of            
 the Governor or the board and cannot be dismissed.  The current               
 statute requires the commissioner can only be dismissed for causes            
 very difficult to prove.                                                      
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said where there is a case where removal is necessary            
 for whatever reason, it almost always will cost the state more in             
 litigation than to just simply buy out the contract.  HB 171 also             
 repeals the requirement that the commissioner can only be removed             
 for cause.  That makes the removal possible for pleasure.  The DOL            
 supports this.  It increases the accountability of that public                
 official.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 955                                                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked about his possible change, which would make              
 the bill read, "The commissioner of education serves at the                   
 pleasure of the board."                                                       
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN agreed that the words "...and may not be appointed by            
 the board for a term of office" is additional language that is not            
 needed.  People who serve at the pleasure of the board are not                
 allowed to have contracts.  Therefore, that language takes the bill           
 where the sponsor wants it to be.                                             
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY understood that the Governor's bill is exactly the            
 opposite.  His says the commissioner may serve at the pleasure of             
 the Governor.                                                                 
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said of course it does, but the DOL is also happy with           
 that approach.  The DOL would like to get the fundamental problem             
 resolved.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 1007                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked because the Governor appoints the Board of               
 Education, it might delay the change but it will not prevent the              
 change.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said he was right.  She then asked to respond to Co-             
 Chair Toohey's question.  The board is composed of seven voting               
 members.  Only four of them can be of the same political party as             
 the Governor.  That is meant to keep the board as a-political as              
 possible in a very political world.                                           
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY asked if the board resigns upon the inauguration of           
 a new governor.                                                               
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said the Governor may request their resignations if he           
 decides to do so.                                                             
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE said in the most current case, one person was held             
 over, and six new people were appointed.                                      
                                                                               
 Number 1070                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON felt this was kind of a "toss up."  The               
 board is going to be appointed by the Governor.  She therefore                
 didn't care which direction the bill went, but she somewhat felt it           
 makes it cleaner by having the commissioner serve at the pleasure             
 of the governor.  She was curious why Representative Martin felt it           
 would be better if the commissioner served at the pleasure of the             
 board.  The Governor is clearly going to ask the old board to leave           
 and appoint new board members.                                                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON realized the board was responsible for                
 taking the recommendation to the Governor.  She felt perhaps that             
 was the reason behind Representative Martin's choice.  She felt,              
 however, that the commissioner could easily serve at the pleasure             
 of either the Governor or the board.                                          
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE felt Representative Martin's choice makes the                  
 appointment a little less political.  In addition, the board feels            
 a little bit more involved in the process by doing the appointing.            
 They are doing the recommendations, and Co-Chair Bunde would                  
 suspect the Governor would be inclined to accept their                        
 recommendation.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 1160                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY did not think anyone would have a problem with                
 either this bill or the Governor's.  However, the reference to                
 severance pay and the high cost of getting rid of unwanted                    
 commissioners must be addressed.  She feels this bill addresses               
 that.                                                                         
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE said if the commissioner serves at the pleasure of             
 someone, that will get rid of severance pay regarding the                     
 Commissioner of Education.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 1197                                                                   
                                                                               
 SHEILA PETERSON, Special Assistant to the Commissioner of                     
 Education, said the State Board is very concerned about this issue            
 also.  Their primary concern is getting rid of the "cause" phrase,            
 and getting rid of the term of office.  The Department of Education           
 would like to see the legislature address this issue to allow some            
 flexibility as to who the commissioner is.                                    
                                                                               
 MS. PETERSON said the State Board of Education represents the whole           
 state.  The members need to be from different judicial districts,             
 and they must be from different political parties.  Therefore,                
 currently the statute is written to provide a cross-section of                
 people on the board to represent the general public.  The board               
 strongly urges the legislature to act on this legislation.                    
                                                                               
 Number 1236                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON asked if there has been a lot of discussion           
 on this.  One of the main reasons the original law was set up and             
 passed was to try to take the appointment out of the political                
 process.  The whole concept was there would be a commissioner who             
 would continue to serve and a board that would continue to serve.             
 The education was supposed to be separate.  Representative Robinson           
 felt the bottom line is that the appointment is political and all             
 the state is doing is causing more problems.                                  
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE ROBINSON wondered if the board talked about the                
 philosophy of the bill and what this change truly means.  It means            
 this bill clearly changes the philosophy of how the state hoped               
 education was going to be managed in this state.                              
                                                                               
 Number 1273                                                                   
                                                                               
 MS. PETERSON did not think the current board feels they are a                 
 "parrot" for the Governor.  They feel they are very independent               
 individuals.  They present and work through problems as                       
 individuals.  The recent appointment of the commissioner was                  
 completely at the direction of the board.  The board made the                 
 selection independent of any advice from the Governor.                        
                                                                               
 MS. PETERSON believes this is how they will respond to their                  
 commissioner.  Governor Knowles is not getting involved, and Ms.              
 Peterson does not believe he will get involved.  People who are on            
 the State Board of Education take that as a serious opportunity to            
 represent the public.  They are very interested in education.  They           
 will look at the commissioner in that light to make decisions                 
 concerning the commissioner.                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 1321                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY asked if the commissioner signs a contract.                   
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN answered that under HB 171, the commissioner would not           
 sign a contract.                                                              
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY thought the whole purpose of this legislation is to           
 have the commissioner agree that his/her term is limited, and                 
 he/she can be removed at the will of the board at any time and                
 without severance pay.  She asked if the commissioner was therefore           
 paid by the month.                                                            
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said Co-Chair Toohey was correct on all points.                  
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR TOOHEY then asked if she was correct that the commissioner           
 is under no obligation to stay longer than the board.                         
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN again said Co-Chair Toohey was correct.                          
                                                                               
 Number 1359                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked if there had to be a cause for the                 
 commissioner to be terminated by the board.                                   
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said under current statute, he/she can only be removed           
 for cause.  HB 171 deletes that provision.                                    
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked for discussion on Amendment 1.                           
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said the whole idea is that other problems              
 arose with the introduction of HB 171.  People asked him about                
 departments other than Education, departments not addressed in HB
 171 as it now reads.   Representative Martin asked people if other            
 problems with payoff occurred in state agencies other than the                
 Department of Education.  He found there were payoffs to make                 
 people resign, and that is a misuse of government money.                      
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE asked HESS Committee members to notice the amendment           
 changes the title and broadens the scope of this bill                         
 significantly.  Co-Chair Bunde asked that Representative Martin               
 speak again to the amendment, and then public testimony would be              
 taken.                                                                        
                                                                               
 Number 1432                                                                   
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN said if it would simplify what Ms. Halloran             
 said about the Board of Education, the amendment could be made into           
 a separate bill.                                                              
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE said it would be the preference of the chair to make           
 the amendment a separate bill.  He proposed HB 171, line 5 to read,           
 "The commissioner serves at the pleasure of the board."                       
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE DAVIS asked if the bill was going to address who               
 appoints the commissioner, or is that going to be assumed.                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE BRICE concurred if the bill says he/she serves at              
 the pleasure of the board, that does not say he/she is appointed by           
 the board.                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. HALLORAN said in other sections of AS 14.07.145 it provides for           
 the appointment of the commissioner of Education by the Board of              
 Education subject to the approval of the Governor.                            
                                                                               
 Number 1499                                                                   
                                                                               
 CO-CHAIR BUNDE closed public testimony on HB 171 and asked for the            
 pleasure of the committee.  Representative Davis moved HB 171 as              
 amended with attached fiscal notes and individual recommendations.            
 There were no objections, and the bill passed.                                
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE MARTIN asked the committee to entertain a committee            
 bill consisting of Representative Martin's original amendment to HB
 171.  Co-Chair Bunde said such a bill would be considered.                    

Document Name Date/Time Subjects