Legislature(1997 - 1998)

01/28/1998 05:03 PM House FSH

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HJR 38 - SPORT FISHING GUIDE LIMITED ENTRY                                     
Number 0043                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced the committee would hear HJR 38,                  
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Alaska             
relating to limited entry for sport fish guides and allied                     
professions."  He stated that at the last meeting there was                    
discussion of an amendment to the resolution in regards to the                 
transferability of the permits.  He stated that currently, there is            
no such amendment.  He explained that he would take testimony on               
the bill and then he would table the bill until future notice or               
until information comes forward that would invoke him to bring it              
back to the table.                                                             
Number 167                                                                     
KEVIN DELANEY, Director, Division of Sport Fish, Department of Fish            
and Game, stated that when he testified on Monday he raised the                
question of whether or not a constitutional hurdle existed for                 
limiting the number of guides that participate in a specific                   
fishery.  At that time he suggested that it was possible that                  
limitations could be enacted through either a competitive bid or               
lottery.  He explained that since then he has done some research               
and discussed it with Steve White from the Department of Law and               
Mr. Utermohle.  He declared that they are all in agreement that a              
constitutional hurdle does exist.  He stated that this door needs              
to be opened if the state wishes to limit entry in the sport fish              
guiding industry or to limit participation as a guide in any                   
specific fishery. He stated that the joint conclusion is that                  
attempting to do that through a competitive bid process lottery                
would not withstand the legal challenge that would likely occur.               
Number 0428                                                                    
MR. DELANEY stated that the department does not have a position on             
the transferability of the permits, as it is more of a social and              
economic issue, which does not affect the department's ability to              
implement the management plans.  He stated that he heard a lot of              
people state, at the last meeting, that the resolution is vague and            
that they would feel more comfortable knowing what would occur in              
a limited entry system.  He explained that the sport fishery, the              
sport fish guiding industry and allied professions are a diverse               
group.  For instance, there are the classic charter boat guides,               
the bed and breakfast operation that hires a sport fish guide as               
needed, and the lodge owner.  He reiterated that a constitutional              
amendment would be needed.                                                     
Number 0451                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN asked if the person from the Commercial               
Fisheries Entry Commission could explain what the process of                   
execution of the limited entry commission would be if the                      
resolution passes.                                                             
Number 0524                                                                    
BRUCE TWOMLEY, Chairman/Commissioner, Commercial Fisheries Entry               
Commission, stated that if a constitutional amendment were to pass             
the state would face all of the practical problems, that it is                 
facing now regarding the information needed.  He stated that the               
Board of Fisheries as well as this committee is taking measures to             
get the necessary information.  He stated that the information                 
would have to be reliable and have a bearing on the conservation               
issues and the economic issues that arise in the area.  The                    
practical problem is to figure out how to acquire that information.            
He stated that he is here to answer questions and not to promote               
the limited entry commission as the means to do that.  It would be             
a decision purely up to the legislature as to who would best serve             
the beneficiaries of the program.                                              
Number 0636                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the commission would see itself as the             
natural place for this program and asked what the title is of the              
limited entry commission.                                                      
Number 658                                                                     
MR. TWOMLEY replied that title is the Commercial Fisheries Entry               
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there is a possibility that a whole new            
entry commission could be developed.                                           
MR. TWOMLEY responded that he thought there was.  He stated that               
their statutes set up the means to address commercial fisheries                
that have been managed in a particular way.  A lot of detailed                 
information has been gathered about every individual fish                      
transaction.  He stated that when the commission is called upon to             
address these issues there are "tools" available that are useful to            
deal with.  He stated that the commission can not claim any                    
familiarity or any tools that would be useful in looking at a                  
guided sport fishery.  He stated that it would be a whole new area             
for the entry commission to look at.                                           
Number 0710                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE SCOTT OGAN questioned the ability to identify who is            
participating in the fishery because there is no method of                     
identification nor have any accurate records been kept.  He stated             
that a limited entry system could not be implemented at this time              
because there has to be more accurate data gathered on who is doing            
what, where and when to prove who is going to be the haves and the             
have nots.  He asked if that is a fair assessment.                             
Number 0751                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY replied that he believed that to be true.  He stated               
that it is his understanding that was the conclusion of the Board              
of Fisheries' committee, developed to look at this issue.  They                
recognize that unless you can get some sound information on                    
individuals, the extent to which they depend on the fisheries and              
the extent to which they are making demands on the fishery, there              
might be some risks in going forward with some kind of limitation              
or moratorium.                                                                 
Number 0792                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated that the information is not available               
because there isn't a system in place at this time.                            
Number 0827                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked how the commission thinks they are                
doing now in regards to limited entry.  He asked what would he                 
change and what advice could he give if there was to be limited                
entry with sport fish guides.                                                  
Number 0841                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY replied that "in balance" limited entry serves the                 
state and has helped secure the place of Alaskans in their                     
fisheries, where there would have been tremendous pressure on the              
fisheries, primarily by people outside the state.  He referred to              
the Boldt Decision, and the difficulties that have hit various                 
fisheries up and down the West Coast.  He stated that it is known              
as a matter of  history that if limited entry had not been in                  
place, there would have been tremendous pressure from outside                  
fishermen on all of the fisheries and more of a risk that Alaskans             
would have been displaced.  He stated that it is for historic                  
reasons that limited entry went into place in time. The state can              
not discriminate against non-residents nor can limited entry.  He              
stated that if the state can limit the fishery at a point when                 
Alaskans are dominant in that industry, an opportunity is created              
for Alaskans to maintain their places.                                         
Number 0934                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY addressed the issue of transferability of these                    
interests.  He stated that the supreme court has had a chance to               
look at the transferability of the privileges that they have                   
administered.  They identified a positive result of limited entry              
to be that it gives people a long term stake in the resource and               
the transferability allowed families to maintain access to the                 
fishery.  He stated that he could offer that history to the                    
committee if it would be of value.                                             
Number 0980                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked if the limited entry mechanism helped             
the commercial fishermen or the commercial fishing industry.                   
Number 1000                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY responded that he thought it empowered individual                  
fishermen and helped them in relation to processors.  They had more            
bargaining power and more of an ability to control their own                   
fishing.  He stated that it empowered them to also maintain their              
access to the fisheries.  He continued that he had been told by                
people close to the real world aspect of the fishery that limited              
entry helped save a place in the fishery for local people, that                
otherwise would have been crowded out.                                         
Number 1040                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked if there would be the opportunity to              
protect the habitat on some of the over-used rivers through a                  
limited entry system.                                                          
Number 1055                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY replied that is an important consideration of limited              
entry, as to whether it would serve that kind of conservation                  
Number  1066                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked if he had any figures of his budget               
and what the budget would be on a sport fish guide limited entry               
Number 1086                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY stated that he did not have an idea of what the cost of            
a sport fish limited entry program would be.  He stated that the               
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission is responsible for all the               
commercial fisheries, and have limited entry into 50 fisheries in              
the state.  He stated that fishermen pay a fee to the commission               
for the permits.  He stated that they bring in about $5 million a              
year and the cost of the agency is about half of that.                         
Number 1123                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that the commission is then revenue              
generating for the general fund.                                               
MR. TWOMLEY stated that it was true.                                           
Number 1136                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE IVAN asked what the bill was that Mr. Twomley had               
referred to.                                                                   
Number 1157                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY stated that he did not recall the bill number but he               
knows that the chairman has sponsored a bill that addresses the                
licensing of commercial fishing guides that would help capture some            
of the information needed to go forward with the resolution.  He               
stated that in addition the Board of Fisheries recognizes this as              
a need.                                                                        
Number 1181                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN asked if he could briefly describe how limited             
entry was implemented; what kind of methodology was used.                      
Number 1203                                                                    
MR. TWOMLEY replied that there is nothing in place right now that              
gives the kind of information that the limited entry commission had            
for the commercial fisheries.  He stated that there was a limited              
entry constitutional amendment in 1972 enacted by the legislature              
that is in existence now.  He informed the committee that the                  
legislature told the commission that they had to look at past                  
participation and economic dependence on the fisheries as a way of             
determining who was most dependent on the commercial fisheries and             
who ought to get limited entry permits.  He continued that they had            
the benefit of fish tickets which recorded every individual sale of            
fish; therefore everyone's catch was documented in every fishery.              
The commission had to look at for purposes of determining economic             
dependence; who had invested in vessels, the amount of earnings                
from the fishery as compared to earnings from other sources. They              
had the benefit of tax records that were pretty clear.                         
Number 1283                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the commercial fisheries management                
areas were in effect before limited entry or were those created                
through limited entry.                                                         
MR. TWOMLEY replied that the management areas were in place before             
limited entry, the Board of Fisheries had every management area                
that the commission addressed for salmon in place before the                   
commission began.                                                              
Number  1313                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked Mr. Delaney what he would see as the              
kind of mechanism that would be implemented and how difficult did              
he think it would be to make it work, in regards to limited entry              
on sport fish guides.                                                          
Number 1337                                                                    
MR. DELANEY replied that in working on the guide licensing bill                
that is currently in the legislature, a great deal of effort went              
into developing the definitions of what a guide is and what they               
do, in order to encompass the sport fish guide industry.  He                   
expressed that a lot of progress had been made.  He reiterated that            
it is a very diverse industry, however the guides for the king                 
fishery on the Kenai River are not a very diverse operation.  The              
boats are about the same size and most have similar histories.  He             
referred to the previously mentioned diverse aspects of the sport              
fish guide industry, and stated that if the state went forward on              
limited entry, a decision would be made that define each fisheries'            
needs based on urgency to move forward with a limited entry system.            
He stated that the start would be with the fisheries that are                  
heavily utilized and conducted uniformly, with a longer history.               
He stated that this can not be accomplished without the socio-economic informat
order to collect the information.  At the present time, the                    
information is what is lacking to describe the economics and the               
character of these operations.                                                 
Number  1496                                                                   
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked if it would be possible to get a short            
narrative on the department's idea as to what kind of mechanism                
would come out of this.  He stated that the voters would want to               
know what the limited entry system would entail, in order to decide            
if they could support it or not.                                               
Number 1529                                                                    
MR. DELANEY replied that the department would be more than happy to            
help in that exercise, however, some of the decisions that would               
need to be made would be public policy level decisions.  All the               
department could say is there is a range of possibilities here and             
this is what it would it take to implement across that range.  He              
continued that there are a number of socio-economic calls that are             
obviously not going to made by the department and he would not want            
to pre-suppose what the legislature would chose to do.  However, he            
pointed out that he would be more than happy to help.                          
Number 1565                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked, "Do we have in place now within the              
state such as maybe parks on the Kenai River where there is kind of            
a charge that they do? Wouldn't some of that information be                    
available because of that?"                                                    
Number 1576                                                                    
MR. DELANEY replied that the data base that exists on the guides               
on the Kenai River between the Department of Fish and Game and the             
Department of Natural Resources, Division of State Parks is                    
undoubtably the best data that the department has in the state.  He            
questioned, however, whether that would be sufficient to meet the              
test that would be put before the department.                                  
Number 1601                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that in the early '70s he had a problem              
when they invoked limited entry on the commercial fisheries.  He               
mentioned that he did not think it was a good idea at that time,               
although he pointed out that it is the management tool that is used            
and it will probably be used in the sport fish industry as well.               
He questioned if it was appropriate at this time.  He referred to              
HB 19, the charter licensing bill, which would give the legislature            
a better informational tool to gather the needed information in                
order to invoke a limited entry system.  He stated that the Board              
of Fisheries is also reaching out in some of those areas in order              
to gather that information as well.  He asked if his understanding             
was correct that after the International Pacific Halibut Commission            
(IPHC) evoked the cap for the halibut fishermen that the board                 
through the department would come up with areas.  He asked if that             
is something the department is looking at doing at this time.                  
Number 1661                                                                    
MR. DELANEY responded that he believed Chairman Austerman was                  
referring to the reporting requirement.  He stated that the NPFMC              
has adopted a motion that would require mandatory reporting and                
have set forth a list of information that needs to be recorded.  He            
stated that the department has supported that at the council                   
meeting and has said that they will take the responsibility  of                
implementing that.  He stated that the department has asked the                
council to let them work together with the Board of Fisheries as               
they have a proposal before them to adopt a regulation that would              
put mandatory reporting requirements in place.  He remarked that               
the council deals with just halibut, the department would like to              
mesh the two together so that the people would have one reporting              
requirement together and the department could provide the data to              
both bodies.  He anticipated the board would adopt that, although              
they have not yet.  At that point in time, whether or not the                  
information that the council and the board had asked for to begin              
addressing a limited entry system is sufficient, he could not say.             
Number 1732                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he was not hinting at that.  He                 
asked if the actual management areas were not something the                    
department is looking at now.                                                  
MR. DELANEY replied no.                                                        
Number 1747                                                                    
MIKE BETHERS, Representative, Alaska Sport Fish Council, testified             
via teleconference from Anchorage that they represent both guided              
and non-guided sport fishermen and the sport fish industry.  He                
stated that they support the concept of a moratorium which would               
ultimately lead to licensed limitation.  He stated that they are in            
support of a limited entry system in problematic areas identified              
by the sport fishing industry.  He stated that they are not in                 
support of a statewide licensed limitation at this time.  He stated            
that it will be at least a few years before data is available on               
which to  base such a statewide or local program.  He pointed out              
that it is based on the state's recent establishment of reporting              
requirements for outfitter guides for the state and federal                    
cooperation in treatment in areas with local problems identified               
with halibut.  He  stated that eventually when local management                
plans call for licensed limitation or a statewide program for the              
sport fish guiding industry, it should be based on the conservation            
of fish stocks, as a top priority, and based less on the economics             
of an individual operator.  He stated that it should be developed              
with the assumption that non-commercial resource users are                     
receiving an adequate allocation of the resource to supply their               
needs, as it is not happening in many areas.  He clarified that the            
council understood that it is only a resolution but asserted that              
the following should be addressed:  who gets a permit, the criteria            
used, which areas, transferability, cost to the industry and                   
individual  participants, will they be issued to the owners or to              
the boats.   He stated that how these questions are answered will              
affect the viability of a license limitation program.  He declared             
that HJR 38 leaves too many of these questions unanswered and                  
leaves the door open for a competing user group to have an impact              
on the development of a program which could have a negative impact             
on the viability of the final product.  He stated that a resolution            
like this should be supported by the sport fish industry only after            
industry participants have developed a program which addresses the             
above issues to their satisfaction and then are ready to move                  
Number 1890                                                                    
JOHN MERRICK, Plans and Resource Manager, Koniag Incorporated,                 
testified via teleconference from Anchorage that Koniag                        
Incorporated manages the private land along the Karluk River, a                
popular salmon stream, with most of the activity stemming from                 
outside interests.  He stated that because now that the salmon runs            
and the dollar returns are down there is a lot of interest from                
village residents in becoming sport fish guides.  He stated that               
for that reason he would oppose any rapid move to limit the sport              
guide fishery because he would like the village residents to have              
the opportunity to become sport fish guides.                                   
Number 1963                                                                    
DARREL SHREVE, Sport Fish Guide, testified via teleconference from             
Valdez in regards to the IPHC's halibut cap.  He stated that when              
the resource is capped but the participants of that industry are               
not capped, once the cap is reached it will become a critical                  
situation.  He stated that a lot of halibut operators have a lot of            
money vested in the guided efforts on halibut.  He said, "Yes I am             
very concerned when the number of bay-liners and smaller boats                 
start participating in the sport guided industry, I can't see any              
cap in the future on them but yet there is a cap for the overall               
industry."  He declared that for economic reasons there needs to be            
limited entry in order to protect the people that have a vested                
interest in the fishery.                                                       
Number 2016                                                                    
MR. SHREVE said, "As far as the limited entry commission that is               
currently in place -- you know I know that every year and for the              
last number -- many years I've been sending my money down there for            
the triangle, I've not seen a lot out of it.  I've seen a funding              
source, there that might be able to assist and maybe further this              
thing along in addition to probably some fees that go along with               
registering, should this be the direction that we go as far as                 
registering guides."   He stated that transferability ought to be              
Number 2058                                                                    
MR. SHREVE explained that one of the big concerns in Prince William            
Sound is the growth of sport guides in the Whittier area,                      
especially once the road is established.  This will cause the 125              
percent halibut limit to be met at a faster pace.  He stated that              
the state is in a position to further limited entry along and he is            
in full support of going in that direction.  He stated that he was             
on the task force of the NPFMC in regards to the uncontrolled                  
growth of sport fish licenses being issued because of a limited                
entry threat.  He explained that talk of a limited entry affects               
the growth of licenses.  He reiterated his support for HJR 38.                 
Number 2127                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE GENE KUBINA asked if his position was an association            
position or if he was just representing himself.                               
Number 2132                                                                    
MR. SHREVE responded that he is not speaking on behalf of the                  
charter boat association, he is representing himself.                          
Number 2138                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE KUBINA asked if the association would be taking a               
position on the issue.                                                         
Number  2144                                                                   
MR. SHREVE responded that John Goodhand is now the president of the            
charter boat association and could not get teleconferenced in.                 
Number  2155                                                                   
RONDAL WHITLEY testified via teleconference from Valdez that he has            
been following the halibut issue.  He asserted that there needs to             
be a stop to speculative entry because as soon as the NPFMC talks              
about limited entry, everyone starts applying for the charter                  
operators triangle, whether they use them or not.  He said, "We're             
going to need to move forward with this."                                      
Number 2197                                                                    
DARWIN JONES, Owner and Operator, Sea Trek Charters, testified via             
teleconference from Petersburg that he is in favor of limited entry            
for sport fish guides as it will give the state a better idea of               
who is catching what and where.  He stated that if limited entry is            
enacted it should be given to the individual skipper and not to                
companies or lodge owners.  He asked if the state of Alaska feels              
they have the authority to place limited entry on sport fishermen              
targeting halibut, since halibut are not regulated by the state.               
Number 2245                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that he would look it up but he was                 
almost certain that the three-mile-limit would have some bearing on            
the management aspects.                                                        
Number 2252                                                                    
CHIP PORTER, Charter Operator, testified via teleconference from               
Ketchikan that he has been chartering for nine seasons and assumed             
he was being monitored all the time, but now it does not sound that            
way.  He stated that he supports limited entry for the charter                 
fleet and is not sure what the limit should be.  He asked that                 
limited entry be instituted before the number of guides reach a                
level where no one can make a living at it.  He continued that if              
there is the steady increase of charter fishermen, no one will be              
able to make a living and it is already heading in that direction              
with the limit that is on king salmon and halibut.                             
Number 2318                                                                    
MR. PORTER stated that he was a power troller for many years and               
having that permit was similar to having a farm with a certain                 
numbers of farmers allowed to farm the area.  He asserted that                 
without the limited entry system for commercial fishermen it would             
have been over years ago.  He declared that he hoped in a sport                
fish limited entry system the people who do not deserve the permits            
will not get them.  He suggested income tax records being used as              
a guide.  There are a lot of people who have charter boats permits             
just to be able them to write their boats off.                                 
Number 2387                                                                    
A.J. SLAGLE, Charter Guide, testified via teleconference from                  
Ketchikan, that he has been guiding since 1990.  He stated that he             
is in support of limited entry but feels that it is poorly                     
researched at this time.  He stated that in the interest of                    
fairness he would like to see a lot more research and public                   
comment on the issue.  He stated that he would like to see a                   
resident preference.  He asserted that a limited entry system                  
should be governed by people that are involved in this industry and            
have a broader or more knowledgeable idea of the conditions and                
concerns of those who work in it.  He stated that there is a                   
definite concern of growth and abuse of the resource through                   
TAPE 98-2, SIDE B                                                              
Number 0002                                                                    
DALE BONDURANT, testified via teleconference from Kenai, that all              
he wanted to say was that he was listening to find out how the                 
department was going to use limited entry and what information they            
had.  He stated that he found out they did not have much                       
Number 0031                                                                    
ELLA RING, testified via teleconference from Matsu that she is in              
favor of limited entry for the guided sport fish industry, but did             
not want it to be like the commercial limited entry system.  She               
stated that some families applied for permits every time they had              
a child, one family had six permits.  She stated that she is in                
favor of a federal takeover because of bad management in the                   
Northern district.  Since 1981, she has made less than $5,000 from             
commercial fishing.  She asked how many king salmon are allowed                
this year per person.                                                          
Number  0096                                                                   
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he did not have that information and            
suggested that she call the Department of Fish and Game.                       
Number 0101                                                                    
MS. RING stated that she had heard that it is one king salmon a day            
for 30 days which is too much with such poor fishing.  She stated              
that there has been a decrease of salmon in her area.  She talked              
about poor management of the Northern district and asserted that               
something needs to be done or else future generations will not have            
any fish.                                                                      
Number 0161                                                                    
REPRESENTATIVE OGAN stated, "The limit for Cook Inlet, if I am not             
mistaken, Kevin Delaney's here -- is five fish per year and one                
fish per day in possession."                                                   
Number  0187                                                                   
ROY JONES, testified via teleconference from Larson Bay that most              
of the residents from Larson Bay are opposed to limited entry on               
sport fishing.  He stated that it is a new industry to the area and            
a lot of residents are trying to rely on sport fish guiding as an              
income.  He stated that if this is implemented it should be area               
specific.  He stated that charter boats from other areas of Alaska             
are guiding in Larson Bay because their areas are over crowded.  He            
stated that the Larson Bay residents are interested in getting into            
the sport fish guiding industry.  He reiterated that it should be              
area specific.                                                                 
Number  0329                                                                   
MICHAEL SWAN, Halibut Charter Guide, testified via teleconference              
from Homer, that he has been chartering for twenty years and is in             
favor of a limited entry program.  He asserted that the data has to            
be available as he has been registering his charter boat for ten               
years and has had a guide license for the past three years.  He                
continued that there is sufficient tax information that he has                 
accumulated for the past 15 to 20 years.  He stated that he agreed             
that it is a regional problem.                                                 
Number  0393                                                                   
GARY AULT, Owner, Charter Business, testified via teleconfernce                
from Homer, that he is speaking for the Homer Charter's                        
Association.  He stated that the members have voted for support of             
the fair and equitable licensed limitation program.  The reason                
being in response to the NPFMC cap to the halibut charter                      
operations.  He stated that the members would like the licenses to             
be fully transferrable in order for the licenses to be viable and              
have some sort of future business.  He stated that there needs to              
be a strong plan to eliminate the speculative licenses that have               
been occurring since 1993 when a limitation on sport fish guides               
was being pursued by the NPFMC.  He continued that an area specific            
plan would be the best way approach a limited entry system.                    
Number 0482                                                                    
SEAN MARTIN, Owner/Operator, Charter Boat, testified via                       
telconfernce from Homer that because of the restrictions placed on             
halibut guides, a limited entry system is needed and the sooner it             
is in place the better.  He stated that this is the best way to                
ensure charter operators a season of historic length, if the guide             
line harvest level is approved.  He stated that other limits such              
as reduced; bag limits, fishing days, size limits and passengers               
per vessel could be implemented which will all have negative                   
economic impacts on the guided halibut sport fishery in Homer.  He             
stated that he could support any limited entry system that allows              
for transferable permits even if those permits do not have a value.            
He continued that a limited entry program should be based on past              
participation and not just the desire to be a guide and looked at              
on a regional basis.                                                           
Number 0538                                                                    
CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he is going to cut off the testimony            
on HJR 38 as HB 310, "An Act relating to the utilization of                    
groundfish; and providing for an effective date" is before the                 
committee as well tonight.  He stated that HJR 38 will be brought              
up again in the future.                                                        

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