Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/11/2002 01:32 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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SB 242-CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITTEES
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR, SB 242 sponsor, explained that the purpose of
initiating the legislation was to give themselves an update on
the current status of the reciprocity agreements that were
supposed to be entered into by the Department of Public Safety
(DPS) with other states on the issue of concealed carry permits.
The Department of Public Safety's website listed seven states
from which Alaska recognizes permits. The website indicated six
of those, Arizona, Florida, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Utah and
Wyoming were by agreement. There are other states, which he
believed had expanded to seven, which currently recognize
Alaska's permits; he listed Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky and Montana.
He understood four of those states were added since the
legislation was filed.
He explained it had been four years since the legislature
instructed, with mandatory language, DPS draft regulations and
get about the business of providing reciprocity for concealed
carry permits with other states. That was primarily so Alaskans,
who meet the highest standards in the nation for a concealed
carry permit, would be granted the opportunity to utilize that
permit in other states to which they traveled. He had hoped that
would be an ongoing process but was concerned that over the last
four years DPS had not taken the action required by the
legislature. That was the purpose for filing this bill.
BRIAN JUDY, National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative
Action, gave the following testimony in support of SB 242. In
1994 DPS disseminated a white paper on HB 351, the original right
to carry bill in Alaska. The title of that report was To Conceal
or Not to Conceal, That is the Question. He said that report was
full of a number of alarmist suggestions and predictions, that
there would be guns at grocery stores, on ball fields and
Anchorage fender benders would become shoot outs. In 2000 DPS
acknowledged the outcome was the same as in every other state,
there had been virtually no problem. Law-abiding citizens who
have been issued permits are exercising their constitutional
right to bear arms and their right to self-defense with the
utmost responsibility. Self-defense is a fundamental right and
law-abiding citizens should be able to choose to not only provide
a means for self-protection but also to determine how best to
provide this protection.
MR. JUDY said it is the NRA's belief, as with driver's licenses,
the right-to-carry permits should be honored universally.
Studies have shown that crime rates dropped when law-abiding
citizens have the means to provide for their own self-protection
and when criminals know that their next potential victim might
fight back.
In 1998 SB 141 first recognized permits from other states. In
2000 SB 294 clarified and broadened the number of states Alaska
would recognize and there was no opposition to that bill. He
said DPS has been unable to provide a complete and accurate
listing of all the states Alaska recognizes. The current statute
said Alaska recognized states with similar laws and states that
recognize Alaska's permits. There are states in both of those
categories that Alaska law recognizes that are not listed on the
website. The website posting did not necessarily get the
information out to all law enforcement agencies in the state.
He said SB 242 would recognizing all other states permits and
relieve DPS of the burden of having to evaluate other states
laws. It will notify all the local law enforcement agencies that
any permit from any other state is valid. He felt the State of
Alaska should not have any reservation about welcoming law
abiding citizens of other states and welcoming their permits.
He said their intent with this law is to allow the people who can
carry openly in Alaska to choose to carry concealed. Any law-
abiding tourist right now can carry a firearm openly virtually
anywhere in Alaska. He said it made no sense to allow anybody to
carry openly but deny those who have gone through the licensing
process in their own state the ability to carry concealed. Law
abiding citizens should be able to choose whether to provide for
their own protection and be able to choose the manner in which
they do so. The NRA urged the committee to support SB 242.
SENATOR COWDERY asked how many other states have carry permits.
MR. JUDY answered there are 31 states that allow the carrying of
concealed weapons and issue permits to their residents and a lot
of states issue to non-residents as well.
SENATOR COWDERY asked if the criteria in other states were
similar to the criteria in Alaska for obtaining a carry permit.
MR. JUDY said the laws differed but were similar. Virtually all
the states require a background check and most of those are
fingerprint based. The majority of states require some type of a
training program but they vary considerably. Regardless of the
differing criteria and the differing standards from state to
state, the one piece of information that is the same out of every
state is that permit holders are not a problem.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR told of a state employee that had contacted him.
He held a concealed carry permit but had never used his permit in
Alaska because he never felt he needed to. He had carried
concealed in Arizona and appreciated the fact that Alaska had a
reciprocity agreement with Arizona that allowed that.
He commented that regulations from DPS required people who held
concealed carry permits from North Dakota be at least 21 years of
age.
MR. JUDY said there were a couple of states that allowed for the
sheriff to issue to people with cause between the ages of 18 and
21.
SENATOR TAYLOR said the purpose of the legislation is to expedite
the process of providing for reciprocity. He asked for some
background on Mr. Judy's working relationship with DPS.
MR. JUDY said it was generally positive but not productive. In
March of 1998 following the passage of SB 141, DPS issued a
memorandum to law enforcement personnel that summarized the
provisions of the new law and included a list of 17 states from
which permits would be recognized by Alaska. In 1999 DPS changed
their policy and were not honoring permits from any state. In
May of 1999 he first contacted Deputy Commissioner Del Smith who
said he would look into it and the problem would be addressed.
MR. JUDY said there is a lack of complete information and posting
it on the website does not meet the requirement of the statute
that DPS provide the information to all local law enforcement
agencies.
SENATOR ELLIS noted that the title of the legislation was broad.
He asked Chairman Taylor if this legislation addressed a concern
in his community that involved an incident where Mr. Timothy
Wagner had been adjudicated mentally ill. He had a concealed
carry permit and there were a number of people concerned about
that being allowed under the law. He asked if he was familiar
with that incident. If that is a problem, was any thought given
to fixing it in this legislation. He wanted Chairman Taylor's
thoughts and also Mr. Judy's comment on the subject of people
adjudicated mentally ill having concealed carry permits.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said his primary concern was the broadness of the
title and would not mind at all narrowing that up a bit if people
thought it would be appropriate.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR did not think Mr. Wagner was adjudicated mentally
ill until after the incident. He was concerned that had Mr.
Wagner been standing outside of the same store with his gun in a
holster on his leg he would have been legal in Alaska, he does
not need a permit to do that. He was sighted for failing to
disclose to the officer who approached him the fact that he had a
concealed firearm. Chairman Taylor was not sure how to address
that situation in the legislation but would be happy to give
consideration to it.
SENATOR ELLIS asked Mr. Judy to explain how other states may have
addressed or failed to address the subject of mental illness and
concealed carry.
MR. JUDY said under Federal Law there is a prohibition on
possession of a firearm for anybody who has been adjudicated
mentally incompetent or who has been committed to a mental
institution. The State of Alaska has the same standard for
possession of a firearm. In this incident Mr. Wagner had not
been adjudicated and had no record of any kind of mental
problems. If he had been carrying openly and exhibiting
delusional behavior nothing could have been done except if law
enforcement at the scene or the person at the dive shop who was
observing his behavior could, under Alaska Law Sec 47.30.700,
initiate an involuntary commitment procedure. Had that happened
and Wagner had been committed then he could not under Alaska Law
possess a firearm.
MR. JUDY explained in 1998 SB 141 brought the concealed weapon
permit law into line with the possession law in the State of
Alaska. With that bill if you could legally possess a firearm
then you would qualify for a permit and any place that you could
carry a firearm openly you would be able to carry a firearm
concealed.
He said the law worked perfectly in the Wagner case because law
enforcement was readily able to determine that he had a permit,
he was acting delusional, he had not let law enforcement know
that he was a permit holder and carrying so they were able to
arrest him and charge him. He was ultimately convicted by that
section. As part of his sentence he was given 3 years probation
and as a condition of the probation he was prohibited from
possessing firearms. He said that meant he does not qualify for
a permit for as long as he is subject of that prohibition. Mr.
Judy thought once he completed his probation if he was still
considered to be a danger and to have mental problems then any
one of the people who are working with him in the system could
initiate commitment procedures and there by not only prevent him
from qualifying for a permit but also keep him in the prohibited
class regarding straight possession.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said he was taken off the street, his gun was
removed and he was convicted of the offense because he had a
concealed carry permit and did not adhere to Alaska Laws. Had he
been carrying the gun openly there would have been no offense.
PETE ROBERTS, Homer resident, asked the committee to vote for
reciprocity on concealed carry permits. He said the statistics
on it are magnificent. If statistics were only so good for
people driving cars people would be a lot safer. He thought
there were some very good reasons for concealed carry permits and
a number of them had occurred recently. Some of the schoolyard
shootings would have been better if there had been some armed
adults. He knew that would not be covered under this bill but in
schools and on airplanes maybe some incidents, such as on
th
September 11, would not have happened if there had been
somebody armed. He supported SB 242. He said there are so many
laws covering guns that only legitimate responsible people can
legally be doing anything with a gun in the United States and
that is as it should be. He concluded an armed society is a
polite society.
CAPTAIN HUDSON, Alaska State Troopers Department of Public
Safety, said Lieutenant Julie Grimes, Supervisor of the Concealed
Handgun Permit Program was with him. He explained in 2000 he
testified on SB 294 and assisted in developing those changes in
the law. At that time their goal was to try to increase
reciprocity around the nation in regards to concealed handgun
permits. He said they were remiss in that their website did not
identify clearly several of the states that they have reciprocity
with. He said Mr. Judy indicated there is a two-part reciprocity
agreement that was developed in Chairman Taylor's last bill.
· To accept anyone's permit from a state that would accept
Alaska's.
· If a state met the minimum criteria of Alaska we would
accept their permit.
He explained that the reason he was adamant at that time in
regards to reciprocity was they wanted to try and make sure
Alaskans had the opportunity to carry firearms as they traveled
from state to state. He believed at that point in time that the
primary impetus was to provide Alaskan citizens the opportunity
to carry their firearms when they traveled to other areas.
CAPTAIN HUDSON noted that Mr. Judy said there were approximately
31 states that currently had forms of handgun permit programs.
Alaska recognized 25 of those states as defined in SB 294 which
Chairman Taylor had worked so hard on in 2000. DPS wanted some
sort of documentation from those state managers that would allow
them to put that agreement on file so they could make sure
Alaskan citizens were safe when they travel. The current website
listed the states which had given them a reciprocity agreement so
when Alaskan citizens travel they had something to back that up.
He said DPS was moving forward and continues to try to move
forward, they want to make sure that Alaskan citizens can carry
their firearms when they travel outside the State of Alaska and
DPS can provide them recent, current and accurate information on
which states will accept their permits. One of their biggest
fears has been that as our state laws have changed since 1994 and
other states also continually change their laws. They try to
maintain a relationship to insure correct information for
Alaskans traveling to another state.
CAPTAIN HUDSON wanted to make sure the committee did not think
DPS had done nothing because they had attacked the issue in
several directions. Alaska accepts several states permits and
those states had yet to tell DPS if they would accept Alaska's.
On the website they showed nine actual reciprocity states. There
was actually fourteen but they were waiting for some written
confirmation from them. Out of the 31 existing states with carry
permits, Alaska would then or very soon accept 25 of those states
and hopefully they can get some of them to accept Alaska's.
SENATOR COWDERY asked how many unlawful incidents had occurred in
the State of Alaska caused by a concealed carrier who used his
weapon illegally.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said to his knowledge there had not been any. He
noted Mr. Judy had said the citizen that goes to the trouble of
getting a permit and legally doing so is not likely to be out
committing crimes.
SENATOR COWDERY asked if there had been any incident where a
carrier has been a help to law enforcement in Alaska.
CAPTAIN HUDSON did not believe there had been any identified
incidents of that either.
SENATOR THERRIAULT said Captain Hudson had stated in his comments
DPS wants to provide good concise, timely information but started
his comments out by saying DPS had been remiss in getting that
information out. He wanted to know where the problem was.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said he would be remiss in telling him that if he
looked at the website that day all 14 states were up there
because they were not. He wanted to make sure that was clear
because he didn't want him to think he was leading him astray.
They had constantly tried to contact other states. It was a
dynamic ongoing process and like anything, it was a matter of
timeliness trying to make it happen. The website was not as up-
to-date on a daily basis as they wished.
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked if the 25 states were states where
Alaska recognized their permits and the list of 13 they had in
front of them or the 14 that Captain Hudson was talking about
were states that recognized Alaska's.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said the list on the website that day under
reciprocity, a total of 14, were states with true reciprocity.
They would take Alaska permits and Alaska would take theirs.
They had identified another 11 states which met the criteria in
the second portion of Alaska's law but had not yet said or
provided any documentation that they would accept Alaska permits.
They were working on that on a regular basis and he thought some
or most of them would accept Alaskan permits. It was a matter of
reaching the right person at the right time.
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked Mr. Judy if we recognize everybody's
permit but have no leverage to get other states to recognize ours
did that put Alaska citizens at a disadvantage.
MR. JUDY said the more states NRA can get to pass laws such as
the one they are considering with SB 242 the more leverage they
would have. He assured him NRA was working with states trying to
get legislation passed where if states were not cooperative those
states would simply recognize permits from all states. He
thought the more states they can get to act, like hopefully
Alaska will act, then it will be like a string of dominoes
eventually all the dominoes are going to fall.
He reiterated his doubt that all law enforcement agencies are
aware of those 25 states because he had been attempting on a
regular basis to get information and had never heard that DPS
considers 25 states as being valid in Alaska. He said he would
venture to guess that most law enforcement agencies had no clue
regarding that point as well. One of the comments the NRA made
for proposed regulations for SB 294 was for all law enforcement
in Alaska be notified including those that do not have web
access. He wanted the web to reflect a complete listing of those
states with reciprocity and those states with similar laws.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said that was the purpose of the legislation and
for being there. He was shocked to hear that DPS was recognizing
25 states. He asked Captain Hudson and Lieutenant Grimes had he
asked DPS in early December how many states Alaska recognized and
granting reciprocity to what would the number have been then.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said he could not answer that. In the last
several months they had put more emphasis on trying to accomplish
this. He believed Commissioner Del Smith had spoken to Chairman
Taylor and they put some emphasis on it. He knew that the
reciprocity page on the website which had nine states on it were
all there in December. There had been several added since that
time.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said when they checked the website on the first
of February it listed seven states which Alaska recognized. From
Captain Hudson's testimony they actually now have 14 which they
have some type of agreement with and 25 that they hope to have
some type of written agreement with in the near future. He asked
if that was correct.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said yes. They had four states they had been in
contact with which indicated they would give DPS some sort of a
written confirmation they will give reciprocity; Georgia,
Alabama, Connecticut and Indiana. When they actually get
something from their program managers in writing they are locked
in on the website. For the top six there are copies of
agreements that citizen can pull up and see. The website is
dynamic and changing. The other states they evaluated for
criteria have been contacted and are pending response from them
and hopefully they will accept Alaska permits. One of the things
New Hampshire indicated was they would honor Alaska except for
the 120-day rule in Alaska law. He said they are trying to
convince them under the second phase of our law, if they will
just accept our permit we will accept theirs, there is no limit
for the 120 days.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said there is dialogue going on between program
managers of these states and they are looking at various websites
and trying to make it work to the best of their ability. It
behooves them to do so because once they can get them locked in
if they don't change their laws then they will be through with
that issue and can move on to other things.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said he was making an assumption but it seemed to
him that they had made very little progress in reciprocity for
almost four years and during that period of time the dialogue was
ongoing. He asked when those letters started flying out of DPS.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said after they passed SB 294 in 2000 he went off
to school for three months in Virginia and then changed positions
in DPS. He was replaced by another Lieutenant, not Lieutenant
Grimes. He came back to the program in July. He did not want to
place blame anywhere or try to lead anybody astray but knew there
had been work done on the program since he had come back and
taken over. He assisted Lieutenant Grimes promotion and she came
onto the program in the fall of last year. There had been
impetus placed on the program since that time.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said if he was to go back through the file to
find out when the letters actually left DPS to the other states
most of them would be sometime after last fall.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said that was not quite true. He saw the letters
before he went off to the FBI National Academy in September of
2000. Prior to his departure he saw letters that were being
mailed out to every state that indicated they had state run
concealed handgun programs at that time. He knew letters went
out after the bill was passed into law. How much occurred in the
interim between then and the following July he did not know.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if the DPS website was the way Alaskans
discover what states give reciprocity.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said that is correct. He said they were waiting
for written confirmation from Kentucky, Georgia, Alabama,
Connecticut and Indiana. They were working with Arkansas,
Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, North Carolina, New Hampshire, New
York, Oregon, South Carolina, Tennessee and West Virginia.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR asked if their website information and
regulations as they are drafted were in compliance with the law.
He understood that instructors who are certified to give the
training programs for concealed carry were having trouble because
of problems inherent between the regulations and the website.
CAPTAIN HUDSON said he was confused about that because the only
contact he had had from any instructors recently in regard to the
website and statutes was out of Fairbanks. The instructors
indicated they did not have access to the website and asked them
for hardcopies of the regulations.
SENATOR THERRIAULT wanted to touch on the issue of Mr. Wagner
because he had gotten calls from constituents. He asked if Mr.
Wagner had been taken into custody by the police solely on the
fact that he had failed to reveal to them he had a concealed
weapon with him.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said the charge they brought against him was
failure to disclose, as a permit holder, that he was actually
carrying.
SENATOR THERRIAULT asked if the restriction placed on him for
possessing a firearm was because he was adjudicated to have a
mental condition and while he is getting treatment that
prohibition is put on him.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said he did not think he had been adjudicated
yet. He noted Mr. Judy testified he was under probation for the
criminal charge he was convicted of. That probation will run for
three years. If he is still exhibiting bazaar behavior it was
hoped that someone would file to have him declared or found to be
mentally incompetent and for that reason not to be able to handle
firearms. That would prevent him under both Federal and State
law from even possession of a firearm.
SENATOR THERRIAULT inquired if the only restriction placed on him
stemmed from the concealed carry law.
TAPE 02-03 SIDE B
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR answered that he would not be under probation if
he had the gun strapped on his hip and was talking about computer
chips being inserted in his head and standing in the rain hoping
the rain would wash away all the evil chemicals inside him.
There would have been no reason they could have arrested him
other than for some overt or bazaar or dangerous behavior because
he would have been perfectly legal at that point since no one has
adjudicated him or committed him. This law worked very well to
make certain that person was no longer on the street with a gun.
JOE NAVA, Fairbanks firearm safety and marksmanship provider,
said he supported the bill because it was aimed at the good guys
in this country. He agreed with Mr. Judy that the concealed
carry people do not cause problems and he called them the good
guys. He informed the committee he was an instructor in
Fairbanks and trained people for the state and was a course
provider for the DPS. He had been training firearm safety and
marksmanship in Alaska for 40 years and training instructors for
30 years.
MR. NAVA said he worked very closely with the ladies in Anchorage
who administered the program. The program allowed him and other
instructors around the state to bring gun safety training to over
18,000 people who would not have gotten it otherwise. That
reduced firearm accidents. He said if people didn't know that
educational training reduced accidents they would not be in
schools trying to teach children how to behave in their future
life so they won't come to grief.
He said the concealed carry law in Alaska had reduced the crime
rate. He checked the crime rate in the Juneau Library through
the reports sent in by DPS for 1995 through 1998. From 1995
through 1998 all crimes against a person had gone down in double-
digit percentages. He added it may or may not have all been the
result of the concealed carry program but he was certain the
concealed carry program had some effect because you could see the
same statistics in all the other states.
He explained he trained concealed carry applicants and as the
course provider was suppose to have the most up to date
information and he could only get that from the website. He had
a sheet from the website dated the first of February and it
listed seven states and did not say anything about any others.
He said that seven had been there for a long time without change.
The problem he had was with the information given to the people
and the course providers. People get information from the
instructors when they take the class. He has to present what he
can get off the website and if that is not up to date and correct
then he is not giving correct information to his students. He
said he checked the website the first day of February and it said
permits must be renewed in person. That had been on the website
since the law was changed in August of the year 2000. He sent
emails to DPS reminding them of the change but the answer he got
was they were going to update the regulations and then change the
information on the website. He believed the information on the
website should be accurate and updated and it should not take a
year and a half to do it.
He discussed the stack of law papers that DPS gives to every
applicant when they pick up their application and thought that
needed to be rewritten also. He said the first ten pages of that
packet were correct, it quoted the law, but the next ten pages on
regulations had not been updated. He wanted somebody to update
the information and website to comply with the law so he can give
the best information possible to his students.
SENATOR DONLEY requested copies of DPS correspondence with the
other states including the dates to be added to the record for
when this legislation goes to the House.
LIEUTENANT GRIMES believed they could provide most of that. She
thought they had it collected in a notebook.
CHAIRMAN TAYLOR said they would make that part of the background
material that moves with the bill.
SENATOR DONLEY moved SB 242 from committee with individual
recommendations. There being no objection, the motion passed.
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