Legislature(2007 - 2008)BELTZ 211

01/31/2008 09:00 AM Senate STATE AFFAIRS


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ HB 37 ESTABLISHING SUSAN BUTCHER DAY TELECONFERENCED
Moved HB 37(efd add) Out of Committee
*+ SB 201 PUBLIC FINANCE WEBSITE TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
*+ SB 215 REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE/I.D. TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                 SB 201-PUBLIC FINANCE WEBSITE                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR MCGUIRE announced the consideration of SB 201.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  BILL WIELECHOWSKI,  Alaska State  Legislature, said  the                                                               
intent of SB 201, the Alaska  Open Government Act, is to create a                                                               
free, searchable website that provides  Alaskans with easy access                                                               
to detailed  and comprehensive information on  state spending. It                                                               
will   encourage  better   understanding   of  state   operations                                                               
and, ultimately,  reduce   waste  and  ensure  that   funding  is                                                               
directed to  the state's  most important needs.  He read  a quote                                                               
from Thomas Jefferson: "We might hope  to see the finances of the                                                               
union  as clear  and intelligible  as a  merchant's book  so that                                                               
every member of  Congress and every man of any  mind in the union                                                               
should  be able  to  comprehend them  to  investigate abuses  and                                                               
consequently to control them."                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said these  types of websites  are emerging                                                               
all  over the  country.  The Federal  Funding Accountability  and                                                               
Transparency  Act of  2006 called  for creation  of a  searchable                                                               
website. It was introduced by  a bipartisan team of four Senators                                                               
including Senators  John McCain and  Barack Obama. In  2007, five                                                               
states  passed   legislation  mandating  online   databases  with                                                               
detailed information on state  expenditures. They include Kansas,                                                               
Texas, Oklahoma, Minnesota, and Hawaii.  There are 15 states that                                                               
are  considering  it. There  seems  to  be a  national  consensus                                                               
brewing,  which is  being supported  from all  sides, from  Ralph                                                               
Nadar to Grover Norquist.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:27:41 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said he  first heard about  this idea  at a                                                               
National  Conference  of  State Legislatures.  The  governor  has                                                               
embraced it  too and has taken  strides to get a  system on line.                                                               
He  is working  with  the  administration, and  there  is a  zero                                                               
fiscal note. It should be in  statute so that the legislature has                                                               
some control over what can be  searchable. It will also signal to                                                               
the public that the legislature supports it.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BUNDE said it will  give citizens information and make it                                                               
easy to get involved. He questioned the zero fiscal note.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:29:43 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said  Grover Norquist says it  is being done                                                               
in other states for nominal  amounts of money. The administration                                                               
will do it  with an Excel spreadsheet, and it  will involve time.                                                               
Some money was budgeted for new software last year.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BUNDE  noted that  in Oklahoma it  was predicted  to cost                                                               
$300,000,  but   it  was   only  $8,000.  If   there  is   to  be                                                               
transparency, even $8,000 needs to be shown.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH said  this is  an  idea he  has had.  One of  his                                                               
constituents wants  to know  expenditures right  down to  a light                                                               
bulb. This is  the way the government ought to  work. There is no                                                               
reason  a person  should have  to  drive somewhere  to find  this                                                               
information when the internet can provide it.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said this information  is out there,  so it                                                               
is a matter of putting in a searchable database.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:32:08 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR STEVENS  said the governor  is already doing this  and it                                                               
is funded. He asked what the legislature can add.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said this is important  and the legislature                                                               
is the  body that crafts a  budget. This governor is  open to it,                                                               
but further governors  may not be. It also gives  this body a say                                                               
in what information will be accessible.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCGUIRE said  it might give the  legislature an opportunity                                                               
to look  at what types of  things should not be  in the database,                                                               
like social security numbers. She asked about salaries.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said this plan  does not include salaries or                                                               
state or federal assistance payments.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BUNDE suggested showing the total spent on welfare.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said  absolutely, but it will  not list each                                                               
individual payment.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:35:24 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked about other exclusions.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said that  is really  it. The  bill defines                                                               
expenditure  as something  greater than  $10,000. He  is open  to                                                               
lowering  it  to  $1,000.  "Do  you  want  to  list  every  $0.99                                                               
purchase?"  He read  the language:  Expenditure does  not include                                                               
the transfer  of money between  state agencies, payment  to state                                                               
employees or retirees, or payment  of state or federal assistance                                                               
to an individual.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:36:43 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  FRENCH suggested  discussing excluded  expenditures, and                                                               
he  asked about  "a contract,  a buy,  purchase and  things along                                                               
those lines."                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BUNDE  asked about  line 31,  regarding payment  to state                                                               
employees. He asked if it meant individual employees.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI  said he  has looked  at other  websites and                                                               
there is a  pie chart where labor costs are  included, but naming                                                               
specific  employees   might  not   be  added  even   though  that                                                               
information can be found elsewhere.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
9:38:19 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR BUNDE asked if salaries would be in categories.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said that is his intention.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCGUIRE  suggested including "individual payments  to state                                                               
employees or retires" as part of the exclusions.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BUNDE said $10,000 sounds significant.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:39:30 AM                                                                                                                    
JOHN BINKLEY, Former Alaska State  Senator, applauded the senator                                                               
and governor for working on this.  Such access will give trust to                                                               
people  for  the  government.  There are  details  that  will  be                                                               
involved,  and it  will  be  a learning  process.  There will  be                                                               
things  that can't  be  seen  now. In  codifying  it, don't  lock                                                               
something in  that would preclude  doing something  beneficial in                                                               
constructing  the  website.  He suggested  that  the  legislature                                                               
might want to pass a bill now and look at the nuances later.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:42:07 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR MCGUIRE  said the bill  will be  held over to  continue the                                                               
communications.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR BUNDE said  to be cautious on both  sides. The government                                                               
should not  inundate the  citizen with  so much  information that                                                               
there is no clarity.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. BINKLEY  said it depends  on the  data arrangement. If  it is                                                               
accessible  there is  no  harm  in allowing  people  to find  the                                                               
smallest  amounts.  When  he  worked   at  the  Alaska  Railroad,                                                               
everything  was  made accessible,  and  links  allowed anyone  to                                                               
easily go from a broad view to the lowest level of expenditures.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:44:43 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR BUNDE asked if there has been any hacking.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. BINKLEY said not in his experience.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH  noted  that  the   committee  leans  toward  not                                                               
including  salaries.   The  Alaska  Budget  Report   lists  state                                                               
salaries.  He asked  if other  states include  salaries in  their                                                               
websites.   There  are   members   of   the  public   interested,                                                               
specifically, in that expense, so it is worth thinking about.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:46:14 AM                                                                                                                    
STEVE   CLEARY,  Executive   Director,  Alaska   Public  Interest                                                               
Research  Group (AKPIRG),  Anchorage,  said  AKPIRG's mission  is                                                               
protecting  consumers and  advocating responsible  government. SB
201  is a  great idea  and should  help government  and citizens.                                                               
More people  should be  involved in  civic affairs,  and allowing                                                               
them to search where state money  is going will engage them more.                                                               
He hopes it  will be used to heap praise  on the legislature, but                                                               
it  will  also allow  criticism.  It  will make  government  more                                                               
efficient. Other states are doing  it, and the federal government                                                               
has begun  to do the  same. He  suggested asking other  states to                                                               
help with the questions that have been raised.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:48:35 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR  BUNDE said  this will  likely not  change the  view that                                                               
excess state  spending is just  money that goes to  someone else.                                                               
He asked about listing individual salaries.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CLEARY said salaries should be  listed by job, not by person.                                                               
Those salaries  would be listed  in an  aggregate or as  a range,                                                               
such as are on the state website now.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:49:59 AM                                                                                                                    
CHAIR MCGUIRE said that is an excellent idea.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MEAD TREADWELL,  Alaskans for Tax  Reform, Anchorage, said  he is                                                               
pleased  to  see  this  legislation  and  has  drafted  something                                                               
similar as  a voter  initiative. He said  he met  Grover Norquist                                                               
when tearing  down the Berlin  wall. Communist countries  rely on                                                               
secrecy  to do  bad things  to people.  Open government  promotes                                                               
freedom. He  said he did a  program to report to  Alaskans on the                                                               
management  of   commonly  owned  assets  and   taxes,  and  that                                                               
information was difficult  to get. Some states  have a commission                                                               
to update  the process, but it  is a continuing cost.  He said an                                                               
annual report could be required,  or the governor could create an                                                               
annual executive order  to update the information.  "Some kind of                                                               
process in the bill to  continually improve this window, I think,                                                               
would be something the committee might want to consider."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:53:33 AM                                                                                                                    
MR. TREADWELL noted that the  criminal database has restrictions,                                                               
and   campaign  databases   can't   be   used  for   contribution                                                               
solicitations.  The information  should  be  transparent, but  it                                                               
should  be  protected  from database  mining  to  create  mailing                                                               
lists. When  he was a  state official  his salary was  public. It                                                               
doesn't  hurt  to  have a  public  official's  salary  available.                                                               
Anything  that is  "FOIable"  [able to  be  attained through  the                                                               
Freedom of Information Act] should be on the website.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:55:20 AM                                                                                                                    
SENATOR BUNDE asked about welfare recipients.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.   TREADWELL  said   he  doesn't   know  how   available  that                                                               
information is now. "I think that's  the type of thing that could                                                               
be shielded  under privacy." Likewise, medical  assistance should                                                               
be private. The legislation should  have a shielding process or a                                                               
means to petition for privacy.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:56:34 AM                                                                                                                    
KIM  GARNERO,  Director,  Division   of  Finance,  Department  of                                                               
Administration,  said her  division will  build the  website; "in                                                               
fact we already  are building it." The  current accounting system                                                               
is  very  old and  needs  to  be  replaced. The  legislature  has                                                               
appropriated money  for it.  The reporting  system is  called the                                                               
Alaska Data  Enterprise Reporting  System (ALDER) and  will allow                                                               
the web access.  ALDER is building the  foundation for converting                                                               
the  legacy  data, and  it  will  have  the benefit  of  allowing                                                               
"reporting such  as this." The system  is in field test  with 400                                                               
users. It  will be shown  to stakeholders  at 11 a.m.  today. All                                                               
state expenditures over  $1,000 will be shown. It  will be sorted                                                               
by department  and by  account code. Increment  II of  ALDER will                                                               
put the payroll data into it. "At  that point we would be able to                                                               
do some of  the reporting you guys have been  talking about - how                                                               
much do state troopers cost -  how much does a state trooper cost                                                               
-  that sort  of  thing."  That is  not  available  now, but  she                                                               
expects it by August. Posting  any confidential information needs                                                               
to be prevented.  ALDER I excludes all  payments to beneficiaries                                                               
of any  kind, all  confidential warrants, and  any data  that the                                                               
agencies deem confidential.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:59:35 AM                                                                                                                    
MS. GARNERO  said there could  be over-exclusions  initially. The                                                               
Department of Law  will do a confidentiality  analysis. There are                                                               
many payments, including foster  care and heating assistance, and                                                               
none of that will be available until after the analysis.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  BUNDE  assumed  the  information  will  be  reported  in                                                               
general, just not to the individual.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. GARNERO said not in version I.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCGUIRE said that is a good idea to put it in categories.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  STEVENS asked  if  a difference  will  be drawn  between                                                               
employees and assistance beneficiaries.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. GARNERO  said no payroll  warrants will  be posted, but  if a                                                               
state  employee  has  received a  travel  reimbursement  of  over                                                               
$1,000,  that  will show  up.  But  there  will be  no  salaries,                                                               
permanent fund dividends, or retirement checks.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
10:01:25 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR FRENCH  asked if  a citizen  will be  able to  figure out                                                               
what  state troopers,  for example,  get paid  because the  total                                                               
salaries and total  employees will be posted. "Would  you have to                                                               
do the division to figure out the annual salary?"                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GARNERO   said  she  has  not   anticipated  posting  salary                                                               
information - it is open for discussion.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR FRENCH asked if that information is available now.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GARNERO said  elements  that  make up  gross  pay for  state                                                               
employees  are  considered public  information,  but  net pay  is                                                               
considered confidential under Title 39.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR  FRENCH asked  if a  person  can find  out "Joe  Smith's"                                                               
gross salary.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
10:03:05 AM                                                                                                                   
MS.  GARNERO said  she  understands  that a  person  can do  that                                                               
through the Division of Personnel.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS  asked Ms. Garnero  if it  makes sense to  have a                                                               
bi-annual report  from her  office considering  things to  add or                                                               
remove from the database.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GARNERO said  she hasn't  thought  about a  report, but  she                                                               
envisioned an  ongoing governance group to  assist in determining                                                               
future enhancements.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
10:04:17 AM                                                                                                                   
SENATOR  BUNDE  said the  goal  is  for  more confidence  in  the                                                               
government and  unintended consequences  need to be  watched for.                                                               
If large categories are unreported,  someone will see the gap and                                                               
wonder  what is  being hidden.  He noted  that the  department is                                                               
changing its  computer software system  anyway. He was  told that                                                               
the auditors of  corporate income tax will need  tens of millions                                                               
of dollars in new software to do a good job.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  GARNERO  said  ALDER  is  being built  from  a  $20  million                                                               
previous appropriation. She anticipates that  they will also do a                                                               
time and attendance  system which will act as a  front end to the                                                               
existing payroll  system. Last year the  legislature appropriated                                                               
$41 million  to start further  replacement efforts,  "and there's                                                               
going to be a lot more necessary before it's done."                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
GROVER NORQUIST, President, Americans  for Tax Reform, Washington                                                               
D.C., said his  group has been working with  governments to enact                                                               
legislation  like SB  201. The  federal government  has passed  a                                                               
similar law. Five states have  "moved very far on this." Missouri                                                               
did it  by executive  order without appropriating  a penny  -- it                                                               
used existing  staff and resources.  There have been  two million                                                               
unique visitors to the website.  Texas has already saved millions                                                               
of dollars. Every  singe check is searchable within  two days. It                                                               
is  good for  citizens and  the government.  Texas saved  $75,000                                                               
just on  toner by  seeing what each  department was  spending and                                                               
then  consolidating  that.  Florida  and Ohio  will  require  the                                                               
state,  local governments,  and  schools  to do  the  same. If  a                                                               
school district in Texas can't  show that a certain percentage of                                                               
money isn't  spent in the  class room, the actual  check register                                                               
must be on the web. Now  every parent can see every check written                                                               
by the school district. It stops all types of abuses.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
10:10:03 AM                                                                                                                   
MR.  NORQUIST  said this  bill  is  exciting. He  recommends  the                                                               
$10,000 threshold be eliminated. "Otherwise  you'll end up with a                                                               
lot of  $9,000 checks being  written." He said his  website shows                                                               
the  status  of all  such  systems  in the  country.  Experienced                                                               
states are willing to help other states.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
10:12:09 AM                                                                                                                   
CHAIR MCGUIRE said SB 201 will be held over.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
SENATOR STEVENS  said he  will want to  discuss the  inclusion of                                                               
local governments and school districts at the next meeting.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                

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