Legislature(1995 - 1996)
02/23/1996 04:00 PM Senate JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SB 177 CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMIT AMENDMENTS
BRETT HUBER, legislative aide to Senator Green, prime sponsor of SB
177, stated the measure proposes to revise Alaska's concealed
handgun permit program (CHP) in order to provide a more
streamlined, cost-efficient process for obtaining a permit, and
provides greater latitude for law-abiding citizens to exercise
their right to carry concealed weapons under their permits. Public
testimony has been very supportive to the reduction in permit cost,
the removal of limitations on where permit holders are allowed to
carry, and the allowance of reciprocity agreements with other
states. Permit holders are required to meet program application
criteria, submit to fingerprinting and background checks, receive
professional training on the use of, and laws relating to,
firearms, and display competency in the use of a firearm. He
reviewed a sectional analysis of the legislation.
SENATOR ADAMS discussed his opposition to reducing permit fees
because those fees could be used to cover the costs of
investigating and fingerprinting permit applicants. MR. HUBER
replied it is not the sponsor's intent to subsidize this program
from other funds, but instead to limit the fees to cover the
application process. Currently the fee cap is $125; the FBI
charges $24 for fingerprint checks, $35 is assigned to DPS for the
Alaska Automated Fingerprinting and Investigation System (AAFIS)
check, and the remainder of $63 is used by DPS for the
administrative costs of issuing permits. When SB 177 moved out of
the State Affairs Committee, it moved with a memo to the Senate
Finance Committee requesting review of DPS' actual administrative
costs to determine the cost of covering this process only.
Number 451
SENATOR ADAMS felt the potential for abuse in this area, resulting
from improper investigation, is of concern.
SENATOR LEMAN commented the State Affairs Committee attempted to
get specific information from DPS without success. He believed the
fee of $125 to be excessive, but was unsure whether $65 to be an
accurate cost. MR. HUBER noted DPS has provided a breakdown of
program receipts and how those receipts are spent, but the amount
includes more than the cost of the permitting process for concealed
weapons. Other functions such as sexual offender registration,
security guard licensing, and commercial drivers licensing are
included.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted DPS is conducting background checks for other
programs at one price, but charges a significantly different price
for CHP investigations, and cannot justify that difference. MR.
HUBER stated DPS charges all program applicants the same amount for
FBI and AAFIS checks but the office that houses all of those
programs is funded by program receipts from the CHP program alone.
SENATOR GREEN indicated there is a fee amount of $63 that is
charged to the CHP applicant that is not justified. SENATOR TAYLOR
noted the Senate Finance Committee will review that aspect of the
legislation. With respect to Senator Adams' concerns, SENATOR
GREEN stated if the DPS can justify the $125 fee, she will support
that amount, however until it is justified, she will not.
SENATOR ADAMS stated he is opposed to carrying concealed handguns,
and asked what existing problems warrant changes to the current
program. He expressed concern that under this legislation a person
with a concealed weapon could enter a domestic violence shelter
housing his battered wife. He believed enough time has not passed
to determine if the current law, which passed recently, is working
as intended. He commented handguns are handled much more
frequently than rifles, yet handgun training programs do not
adequately address the frequency of handling.
MR. HUBER agreed a permitted handgun carrier could bring a
concealed weapon into a domestic violence shelter, however a person
without a permit could legally carry a handgun into that same
shelter today, as long as the handgun is not concealed. SENATOR
ADAMS believed a person would be stopped faster if the handgun was
exposed.
TESS LANUM, Vice President of legislation for the Alaska PTA,
testified in opposition to SB 177. The PTA believes allowing
deadly weapons on school grounds will hinder their endeavor to
protect children from harm. The children of Alaska should be able
to attend school knowing that the lawmakers of this state would not
allow anything deadly onto their school's property, and parents
should feel their children are secure while attending school. The
State of Alaska leads the nation in per capita firearm injuries and
deaths. According to the Division of Vital Statistics, the number
of firearm-related deaths has continued to rise since 1990. The
injury or death of any student can be prevented if lawmakers
prohibit guns on school property. Over 122,000 students attend
school in Alaska. The PTA believes that the 4000 permitholders
inconvenienced because they cannot bring guns on school property
does not warrant this legislation. MS. LANUM repeated the lives,
safety and well being of the children of Alaska are no less
important than the lives of people who work in other facilities
where guns are prohibited.
Number 319
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Lanum how many schools in Alaska have
rifle or pistol teams. MS. LANUM did not know how many exist.
SENATOR TAYLOR stated such training programs could not be
accommodated if guns were prohibited from school grounds
completely. MS. LANUM responded the difference between a training
program is that everyone is aware of the program, an instructor is
available, and students are learning about firearms. If SB 177
passes, no one will know who is entering school grounds with a
concealed handgun. The PTA's concern is one of safety.
Number 281
SENATOR TAYLOR stated under current law nothing prevents a person
from carrying an exposed weapon onto school grounds. MS. LANUM
replied in Kenai, a person cannot have a gun in plain view on
school property. MR. HUBER explained the existing prohibition on
school grounds for firearms, other than for specific range use,
requires weapons to be unloaded and in a case.
SENATOR GREEN commented that a person who, through profession,
needs to carry a gun, must expose the handgun when on school
grounds, which is awkward for people merely dropping children off
at school. She believed current restrictions on law abiding,
trained, permitholders to be onerous. MS. LANUM agreed it is an
inconvenience for that small group of people, but accidents occur,
guns and children don't belong together, and school should be a
safe haven.
SENATOR MILLER stated he understood the PTA's concerns, but the
group of 4,000 permitholders are not the people that are cause for
concern; non-permitholders are. SENATOR TAYLOR commented
permitholders receive more safety training than many police
officers. MS. LANUM reiterated there are over 122,000 students in
Alaskan schools whose safety should come first, as opposed to only
4,019 permitholders who might be inconvenienced by the school
ground prohibition.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if a huge drop in drug use occurred after
drug-free school zone signs were posted. MS. TANUM did not know.
SENATOR TAYLOR believed those signs to be no more than a token
attempt to remedy the drug problem, which has worsened. Testimony
on other legislation has revealed that gang members in schools are
dealing drugs and carrying guns. MS. TANUM stated no one believed
sign posting would eradicate drug use but it was done to advocate
the prevention of drug use.
SENATOR TAYLOR asserted it might be safer to have a person with a
permitted handgun on school grounds if a deranged individual
entered the school ground. MS. TANUM did not believe it likely
both would be on school grounds simultaneously. SENATOR TAYLOR
felt opposition to SB 177 centers around classifying permitholders
in the same category as irresponsible gun owners. MS. TANUM stated
the problem is that guns are deadly and do not belong around
children. SENATOR MILLER commented that people kill people; many
different weapons can be used.
Number 152
JANE WINEINGER, representing the NRA, testified in support of SB
177 for the following reasons. Changes incorporated in the
legislation solidly reflect the NRA's concerns with the current
law. Individuals cannot rely on others for personal safety, and
need to protect themselves. Current restrictions are a burden on
all law-abiding citizens, who do not take the permit system
lightly. A lot of hysterical commentary exists about SB 177, which
is not factual. Schools and hospitals do not assume liability for
employee safety, therefore those employees must arrange for their
own safety. This bill will not change criminal behavior, as those
people do not follow the law anyway. She described a situation in
a school in Central Washington in which three people were killed
and one injured by a deranged 14 year old. The right to live and
be secure from personal attack is one of the most fundamental
rights of human beings. According to the Department of Justice, 87
percent of all violent crime happens outside the home. Having the
right to carry a firearm without arduous restrictions gives the
honest citizen, especially women, freedom to leave their homes and
provide protection for their families and themselves, a necessity
since the Supreme Court has ruled that local law enforcement has no
duty to protect a particular person, but only a general duty to
enforce the law. Law-abiding citizens must be given an even chance
against predators who do not abide by any laws or apply for
permits. The passage of SB 177 gives people a tool for self-
protection.
Number 055
SENATOR ADAMS asked for statistics on the number of crimes
committed by people with permits. MS. WINEINGER estimated less
than one percent of permits have been revoked, some because
permitholders left the state. She added in no state is the amount
over one percent. SENATOR GREEN affirmed leaving the state is
cause for revocation. MR. HUBER commented that as of December,
1995, DPS reported one permit revocation out of 3,154 permits and
none of the revocations in the state have ever resulted from the
misuse of a weapon.
SENATOR ELLIS asked Ms. Wineinger if she was suggesting in her
testimony that the bill should be amended to allow teachers and
other staff to carry guns to stop violent incidents. MS. WINEINGER
replied she thinks the bill is adequate as is, and her comments
were directed to the possibility that permitholders might prevent
a violent incident, rather than cause one.
SENATOR GREEN discussed a proposed bill last year that prohibited
carrying a weapon within one hundred yards of school grounds, which
raised questions regarding whether it would be criminal to carry a
gun on private property abutting school grounds or in vehicles
passing schools. SB 177 was drafted to clarify where a concealed
weapon can be carried and to ensure a concealed weapon can remain
concealed, rather than require the permitholder to expose it when
unnecessary.
SENATOR ELLIS commented on the example of the teacher pulling out
a gun to shoot the deranged 14 year old that suggested further
amendments to the bill. SENATOR GREEN stated it is particularly
interesting that in Ms. Wineinger's training classes, teachers,
nurses, and women who do shift work, want to carry concealed
weapons. MS. WINEINGER noted her training classes include a high
percentage of teachers concerned about their safety.
TAPE TWO, SIDE A
Number 000
LARRY WIGET, Director of Government Relations for the Anchorage
School District, testified in opposition to the section of the bill
that allows concealed weapons to be carried onto school grounds.
The Anchorage School District has a policy opposing such activity
with strict rules and penalties and the municipality has an
ordinance in opposition also.
SENATOR GREEN asked if Mr. Wiget was aware that SB 177 does not
allow anyone of school age to carry a concealed weapon on school
grounds. He replied he was.
HARLAN KNUDSON, representing the Alaska State Hospital and Nursing
Home Association, requested that hospitals and nursing homes be
added to Section 12 of SB 177. SENATOR GREEN questioned current
policy regarding hospitals. MR. KNUDSON responded under current
law it is unclear whether posting a sign on hospital or nursing
home grounds prohibiting the carrying of a concealed weapon would
be enforceable. MR. HUBER explained that the Attorney General's
Office has prepared a legal opinion on that question (7/12/95) and
concluded the state's criminal trespass laws can be used to arrest
and prosecute a person who possesses a concealed handgun on private
businesses premises if a notice has been posted.
Number 089
SENATOR ADAMS asked if inclusion of Mr. Knudson's requested
language would hurt the bill in any way. MR. HUBER replied
permitholders face a misdemeanor violation as opposed to non-
permitholders who face a trespass violation. The misdemeanor
violation is more serious, therefore permitholders are singled out
as a separate class of people in violation beyond that of people
carrying exposed weapons. The sponsor believes permitholders
should not be discriminated against for qualifying and obtaining a
permit. SENATOR ADAMS requested a copy of the legal opinion.
MOE McGEE, Director of Anchorage Municipal Libraries, stated the
only weapons appropriate in libraries are words.
CURTIS GREEN testified in support of SB 177, as the issue is a
matter of freedom and common sense. He believed the permit process
should be as unrestrictive as possible because only law-abiding
citizens will apply; dishonest people will not.
KATE TESAR, representing the Inland Boatmens' Union of the Pacific,
discussed the current ferry policy regarding the carrying of
concealed weapons on marine highway vessels. To ensure passenger
safety, only unloaded firearms are allowed on vessels; ammunition
is stowed separate from firearms. Unloaded firearms may be
securely locked in a passenger's vehicle, other legal weapons
brought aboard by walk-on passengers must be checked with the
ship's personnel. The Inland Boatmen's Union is satisfied with its
current policy and asked the committee to amend SB 177 to enable
the Marine Highway to continue this policy.
SENATOR TAYLOR stated he intends to offer an amendment which would
allow the Marine Highway system to operate under the same
regulations it currently follows.
RAYMOND CARR, an instructor for the NRA's Personal Protection
Program since 1985, testified in support of SB 177. He commented
that 25 percent of people who contact him for training choose not
to apply for a permit when they learn of the restrictions. He
believed SB 177 will alleviate potential applicants' concerns. He
also supported the reciprocity provision with other states. He
suggested simplifying Section 9 to decrease costs. He disagreed
with the deletion of the maximum caliber requirement in SB 177,
because applicants need to be trained in the use of such guns if
they plan to handle them.
SENATOR ADAMS asked the cost of an NRA training course. MR. CARR
replied the cost is $120 which includes the class, fingerprinting
and a photo I.D.
PATTY OWEN, representing herself as a concerned parent, stated she
agrees with the PTA's position. She opposed simplifying the permit
process and the removal of restrictions on where concealed handguns
can be carried, particularly in places where children congregate.
No precaution is too much to take when it comes to the safety of
children. Laws should not be changed because they inconvenience
people, and it is an undue burden on her to post a sign prohibiting
concealed weapons on her property. She asked for clarification of
whether it is a criminal offense to ignore a posted sign on private
property. She disagreed with decreasing fees to allow the needy to
carry concealed weapons. She believed if self-defense is the
issue, other less-deadly methods should be used. She stated her
support for existing law.
Number 288
JAYNE ANDREEN, representing the Council on Domestic Violence and
Sexual Assault, testified in opposition to SB 177. The Council is
most concerned about the removal of the prohibition of concealed
weapons in facilities that provide services to victims of domestic
violence and sexual assault. Many domestic violence offenders are
"law-abiding citizens" who do not have criminal records, and would
be eligible for a concealed weapon permit. It is vitally important
that victims of domestic violence and sexual assault have a safe
place to go.
SENATOR GREEN informed Ms. Andreen of the Attorney General's
Opinion regarding enforceability when signs are posted.
CLAUDIA DOUGLAS, President of NEA Alaska, expressed concern about
the portion of the bill which allows concealed weapons to be
carried on school grounds. She asked whether a school district
could enforce a policy if signs were posted prohibiting the
carrying of concealed weapons within the district.
SENATOR TAYLOR stated most schools are bordered by public streets.
He felt the practical problem of determining whether a
permitholder, escorting a child to school, would have to remove a
concealed weapon if he/she stepped off of a public sidewalk onto
school property to be too cumbersome. He asked how "school
grounds" are defined. MS. DOUGLAS replied there is an actual
boundary around a school. MS. DOUGLAS stated the NEA's concern is
the potential for mischief and accidents that could happen if
concealed guns are carried onto school property.
SENATOR TAYLOR questioned the number of illegally concealed weapons
and drugs in schools right now. He believed mechanisms used to
ensure student and teacher safety to be ineffective and noted
background checks required of permit applicants are more extensive
than those required of teachers.
SENATOR GREEN expressed frustration that people continue to confuse
criminals with law-abiding permitholders. She stated this bill is
designed to allow people who may carry large sums of money and work
in dangerous neighborhoods to protect themselves. She emphasized
a person can carry an exposed gun anywhere without a permit.
SENATOR ELLIS stated it only takes one crime to become a non-law-
abiding citizen and there is no guarantee that because a person
passed a test he/she will not commit a crime. SENATOR MILLER
replied the statistical odds are against that occurring.
BELINDA DANIELS, a member of the NEA Board of Directors, opposed
changes in the language in Section 12 of the committee substitute.
She believed people need the assurance of knowing that in airline
terminals, government offices, public buildings, or the Alaska
Marine Highway, no one has the right to carry a concealed weapon.
Removing that restriction makes society more unsafe. In 1991 the
teachers' association worked closely with the School District to
develop a policy that contains concrete consequences to promote
zero tolerance for any weapons on school grounds in response to an
increase in the incidents of students bringing weapons to school.
Signs have been posted in schools, clearly outlining the policy.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what the consequences are. MS. DANIELS stated
a student caught with a gun on school grounds can be expelled. She
stressed the importance of prevention rather than punitive action,
since junior high school students emulate adults, therefore may
bring parent's permitted handguns to school.
CHRIS SULLIVAN, a permitholder, testified in support of SB 177.
The NRA has a program to train young people about safe gun
handling, and emphasizes that rather than touch a gun if found,
tell an adult. He did not agree with MS. TANUM, and believed a
child should feel safest in his/her own home. He questioned why
teachers are afraid of permitholders, since obtaining a permit has
never caused anyone to commit a crime. He believes drunk drivers
cause a lot more damage than permitted handgun holders.
SENATOR TAYLOR offered amendment #1, which ensures that both
federal and state laws are incorporated in the promulgation of
regulations regarding the ferry system. There being no objection,
amendment #1 was adopted.
SENATOR GREEN moved for adoption of amendment #2 which addresses
reciprocity. The amendment would allow DPS to issue a permit to a
person holding a valid permit issued by another state, if that
state allows Alaska permitholders reciprocity, as determined by the
DPS.
SENATOR ADAMS asked if other states would have to have a law
identical to Alaska's. SENATOR TAYLOR stated they are all a bit
different. SENATOR ELLIS asked if another state had lesser
standards, whether those standards would be accepted by DPS.
SENATOR GREEN explained that if the other state recognized Alaska's
provisions, Alaska would recognize that state's. SENATOR TAYLOR
clarified it would be up to DPS to decide whether the standards of
another state were acceptable.
SENATOR ADAMS objected to adoption of amendment #2 because a
representative of the DPS was not available to answer questions. He
asked Mr. Huber to provide committee members with additional
information on amendment #2. MR. HUBER stated the program would be
similar to drivers license agreements. A person driving in another
state is required to follow the laws of that state when driving
there. SENATOR ADAMS stated he is more concerned about the
standards a permitholder was required to meet to obtain a permit.
A roll call vote was taken on amendment #2. The motion carried
with Senators Miller, Green, and Taylor voting "yea," and Senators
Ellis and Adams voting "nay." SENATOR ELLIS voiced his opposition
to the lack of information available about amendment #2 prior to
its adoption. SENATOR GREEN noted the DPS was agreeable to the
reciprocity arrangement. SENATOR ELLIS asked if DPS has full
discretion to determine which states have reciprocity. SENATOR
GREEN replied affirmatively. SENATOR TAYLOR agreed the standards
required of other states accepted by DPS should be made available
to committee members and requested Mr. Huber to provide that
information.
SENATOR GREEN moved SB 177 as amended from committee with
individual recommendations. SENATOR ADAMS objected. The motion
carried with Senators Taylor, Green and Miller voting "yea," and
Senators Adams and Ellis voting "nay." The meeting was adjourned.
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