Legislature(2015 - 2016)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)
02/29/2016 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB24 | |
| SJR19 | |
| SB174 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 174 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | SJR 19 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 24 | TELECONFERENCED | |
SB 174-REG. OF FIREARMS/KNIVES BY UNIV. OF AK
1:42:36 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE announced the consideration of SB 174. She noted
this is the first hearing and public testimony would open on
Wednesday, March 2.
1:43:27 PM
SENATOR PETE KELLY, Alaska State Legislature, Juneau, Alaska,
sponsor of SB 174, stated that SB 174 allows concealed carry of
handguns on the University of Alaska campuses. This affirms that
Alaska citizens do not relinquish their constitutional rights
when they enter the campus and resolves a conflict between the
University of Alaska Board of Regents and the state
constitution. He said the Alaska Constitution specifies that the
right to keep and bear arms is an individual right and the
university has ignored that. He maintained that the university
has failed to prove it is the legitimate governing authority,
that its policies will be effective in achieving the stated
objectives, and that the policy is narrowly tailored to meet a
compelling governmental interest by the least restrictive means
possible.
SENATOR KELLY said the university has created a gun-free zone
and those frequently have become targets for the mentally
unstable or those with political agendas. He cited examples from
a Marine recruiting center, college campuses, and public
schools. He maintained that posting signs prohibiting carrying
guns actually serves as a magnet to those who intend to do harm.
1:46:48 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI joined the committee.
SENATOR KELLY pointed out that since 1950 most mass shootings
have occurred in gun-free zones, whereas there have been no
proven problems on the 150 campuses that allow concealed carry.
He stressed the need to be proactive and reminded the committee
that this is about a constitutional right over which the Board
of Regents has no jurisdiction.
1:49:55 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE stated that she has supported a similar bill in
the past and she supports this one because of the Second
Amendment right under the U.S. Constitution and the specific
right under Article I, Section 19 of the Alaska Constitution.
She read the passage and pointed out that the Alaska Supreme
Court has used a sliding scale analysis when assessing a right.
The more fundamental the right, the higher the scrutiny. If the
state were to succeed in upholding any kind of infringement on
the right of Alaska citizens to bear arms, the means would have
to justify the ends, be narrowly tailored and have a tight
connection. She opined that the University of Alaska's current
policy would not meet that test.
She joined the sponsor's remarks about bad actors and offered
her philosophy that the more layered rules in this area, the
harder it is on people who abide by the law. She recounted that
in her schools she would like to see armed security guards and a
few armed teachers.
She discussed conversations she's had with Canadian counterparts
about the passion for defending the Second Amendment right. She
tells them to study U.S. history regarding the quartering of
troops and the reasons for the migration from England. It
illustrates the power of the government compared to the
individual. She said she'd like to hear the university's view of
Article I, Section 19, of the Alaska Constitution and the Second
Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and how they feel Alaska
would be excluded.
She listed the weapon crime statistics she wanted from the
Department of Public Safety: what weapons are used in what
crimes; do individuals committing those crimes have a license to
carry; information about misconduct involving weapons statutes;
how DPS has implemented federal restrictions on the purchase and
possession of firearms; and how Title 47 and past statutory
proposals relate to firearm possession.
She requested to hear from university police departments
regarding response times; campus safety statistics; and the
presence and types of weapons and whether or not they were
licensed.
1:57:38 PM
SENATOR COGHILL commented that the issue has risen to this level
because of the people who have misused a right. What's happened
is that many now believe the gun is the problem when actually
it's bad people. He stated agreement with the sponsor and
challenged anyone to cite an example of a responsible gun owner
who has gone into a gun-free zone and misused their weapon.
He thanked the sponsor for bringing the bill forward and
committed to look at the six points with a critical eye.
2:01:00 PM
SENATOR COSTELLO asked what the current status is on campuses.
SENATOR KELLY said concealed carry on campus is prohibited.
Someone who owns a gun and lives in a dorm has to turn it in for
locked storage and the person has to sign it in and out. He
suggested Mr. Byrnes might walk through more specifics.
SENATOR COSTELLO asked what precipitated the bill.
SENATOR KELLY said his motivation was the San Bernardino
shooting, part of which took place in a gun-free zone.
2:02:56 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI highlighted the broad scope of Article 1,
Section 19, and questioned whether the bill is necessary in
light of the permission in the constitution. He also asked what
analysis is done to differentiate an elementary school from the
university.
SENATOR KELLY said the reason the bill is necessary is because
of what occurred at Umpqua State College. Oregon state law said
people could carry weapons on the campus but the college policy
manual said carrying weapons on campus is prohibited. He
maintained that the university is going outside the bounds of
the constitution asserting it is not under the laws of the
legislature or the constitution. He asked Senator Wielechowski
to repeat the second question.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked the rationale for not allowing
firearms in courts and the legislature but allowing them on the
university campuses.
SENATOR KELLY said the restrictions have to be narrowly applied,
practical, and imposed by a political subdivision that has that
authority. He opined that the university is lacking in all
three. He deferred further comment on that point to the
university because he isn't familiar with their rules. He added
that he doesn't believe the legislature has any better rules in
that regard.
CHAIR MCGUIRE listed the locations where firearms are restricted
and opined that they are all ripe for reconsideration. She
stated her belief that the posted policy of prohibiting
concealed carry in buildings subject to the legislature is
unconstitutional. She noted that no one from either the
Department of Law (DOL) or Legislative Legal Services is
available online.
2:08:36 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he'd like to talk to legislative
lawyers and the Department of Law because it's a legal issue
related to the interpretation of the Alaska Constitution.
CHAIR MCGUIRE listed the individuals available to testify and
answer questions.
2:10:04 PM
CALLIE CONERTON, Student Body President, University of Alaska
Southeast and Vice Chair, Coalition of Student Leaders,
expressed concern with the current draft of SB 174. She said the
university should be able to prohibit concealed carry in the
multiple buildings dedicated towards K-12 programing. The State
of Alaska doesn't require a concealed carry permit so there
would be no guarantee that people carrying guns on campus would
know about proper firearm safety. She thanked the sponsor and
his staff for including four of the six amendments the
university suggested.
MS. CONERTON concluded her testimony by informing the committee
that the Coalition of Student Leaders collectively opposes SB
174 as currently written.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked her to describe the four amendments the
sponsor accepted.
MS. CONERTON listed the changes in concealed carry in
dormitories and the right of the university to take a firearm
away from someone who poses a risk of harm to others. She
requested Mr. Byrnes complete the list.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked Ms. Conerton to identify, either in writing
or supplemental testimony, which campuses and buildings have K-
12 programing. That information would be used in the legal
analysis of the bill.
2:14:44 PM
JOE BYRNES, Staff, Senator Pete Kelly, Alaska State Legislature,
informed the committee that the four amendments were
incorporated into the committee substitute the Senate Education
Committee passed. These are located on page 2, lines 3-12. He
read the following exceptions: 1) when the behavior of a student
or an employee demonstrates that the student or employee poses a
risk of harm to self or others; 2) in student dormitories or
other shared living quarters; 3) in university facilities where
health services, counseling services, or other services related
to sexual harassment or violence are provided; and 4) in
university facilities during adjudication of staff or student
disciplinary issues.
2:15:35 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE joined the committee.
CHAIR MCGUIRE expressed support for lines 9-11, and the caveat
language on page 2, lines 18-20: "policies adopted or enforced
under this paragraph may not abridge the right of the individual
guaranteed by art. I, sec. 19, Constitution of the State of
Alaska, to bear arms in defense of self or others;".
MR. BYRNES noted that the bill is modeled after Title 29 and the
municipal regulation of firearms.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked him to discuss the amendments that
were rejected.
MR. BYRNES said one related to K-12 facilities and the other was
concealed handgun permits.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the request was to require a
permit to carry a concealed handgun.
MR. BYRNES said that's correct.
2:17:23 PM
MICHAEL HOSTINA, General Counsel, University of Alaska System,
Fairbanks, Alaska, offered to answer legal questions that relate
to SB 174.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked him to explain the source of authority for
the University of Alaska policy; how the policy works; and why
it meets the sliding scale requirement articulated by the Alaska
Supreme Court for regulating yet not abridging an individual's
right to bear arms.
MR. HOSTINA said the source of authority is the constitution and
the statutory provision that allows the Board of Regents to
adopt reasonable regulations for the governance of the
university. He reminded the committee that the university is not
a political subdivision of the state covered by Title 29.
Rather, the university is a constitutional corporation and
instrumentality of the state as defined by the Alaska Supreme
Court.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked how that meaningfully impacts the discussion
today regarding the university's right to govern in this area.
MR. HOSTINA said he mentioned it primarily because a number of
people have testified that the university is a political
subdivision of the state. That isn't the case so the university
is not governed by Title 29. The constitution provides the Board
of Regents the authority to govern the university, but not
independent of applicable law. It does provide some basis for
the regents to determine the academic sphere and safely manage
campus life.
MR. HOSTINA also pointed out that the Board of Regents is
uniquely responsible for governing university buildings,
programs, personnel, and students. The U.S. Supreme Court has
clearly said the Second Amendment protections do not apply to
sensitive areas like schools, hospitals, and courts to and
government buildings. Thus, there is a strong legal argument
against engaging in a strict scrutiny analysis where the
regulations are only impacting government buildings.
He stated that the Board of Regents wants to be able to manage
very clear, individual situations that pose specific risks on
university property. He listed troubled students, situations
paralleling domestic violence centers and shelters, areas and
programs dedicated to K-12, dormitories and places where alcohol
is served.
MR. HOSTINA explained that current policy allows people to bring
firearms on campus for specific events, turn the weapon in for
secure storage in the dorm setting, secure the weapon at home in
faculty housing, and lock a weapon in a vehicle.
2:23:51 PM
MATT COOPER, Associate Counsel, University of Alaska System,
Fairbanks, Alaska, noted that the third part of the question was
why the current policy meets constitutional requirements.
MR. HOSTINA restated that the U.S. Supreme Court has said that
certain exceptions are carved out of the Second Amendment for
sensitive areas such as schools and government buildings. The
Alaska Supreme Court has not addressed that issue head on, he
said, but has evaluated and upheld restrictions related to K-12
with respect to alcohol and age. It's about government
responsibility for its own premises, staff, and students as
opposed to regulating the general public. The university rules
are administrative and apply only on the premises and under
certain situations.
CHAIR MCGUIRE commented on what the forefathers would think of
this discussion and questioned whether the university would have
a similar view of the rights outlined in Article 1, Section 1,
and Article 1, Section 3, of the Alaska Constitution.
2:27:49 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the allowance for the individual
right to keep and bear arms would apply to the university as a
state corporation.
MR. HOSTINA said the issue here is whether the rules in Title 29
that apply to municipalities would apply to the university. It
is the university's position that they do not, he said.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked why the University of Alaska, as an arm of
state government and as a constitutional corporation, has the
right to abridge Article 1 rights under the Constitution of the
State of Alaska.
MR. HOSTINA replied the university does not have the right to
abridge constitutional rights, but it has the right to impose
reasonable limitations just as the state has the right to limit
the right to bear arms in areas like K-12, areas that serve
alcohol, the legislature, domestic violence shelters, and a home
where the responsible adult has not agreed to the concealment of
firearms. To date those reasonable limitations have not been
overruled.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he believes that the state would
be violating the constitution by passing the bill as currently
written.
MR. HOSTINA answered no.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked him to walk through the strict
scrutiny analysis the court would apply.
MR. HOSTINA reiterated that it is unlikely that the Alaska
Supreme Court would apply strict scrutiny since this involves an
arm of government managing its own premises. The university has
very specific situations that parallel other restrictions in
state law on the carriage of weapons and firearms, and he
believes the university would survive whatever level of scrutiny
is applied.
2:33:52 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked how university students become an arm of the
government. She also mentioned the Hyde Amendment and asked how
the university would treat the First Amendment right of a
student to speak.
MR. HOSTINA said the university is subject to the restrictions
in both the Alaska Constitution and the U.S. Constitution
regarding freedom of speech and cannot regulate the speech based
on content. However, it can regulate speech based on time,
place, and manner restrictions; areas of the campus that are not
open to speech; and areas of the campus that are reserved for
administration. The right to speak is well established and
rights have begun to be established in the area where the Second
Amendment has been interpreted as providing an individual right
to bear arms. Thus far the courts have said the government has a
right to regulate its own premises in identified sensitive
areas.
2:38:24 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked how students at the university are an arm of
the government.
MR. HOSTINA said he doesn't believe that students are an arm of
the government, but they are subject to reasonable restrictions
that apply to the area they are entering. The same analogy
applies to speech; when you enter a regulated area, you accept
the regulations that apply in that area.
2:41:02 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE disagreed with the analogy.
SENATOR MICCICHE requested an at-ease.
2:41:50 PM
At ease
2:41:54 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE reconvened the meeting.
SENATOR MICCICHE asked him to explain his testimony about the
need to regulate concealed carry in light of the exemptions on
page 2, lines 4-12. He noted he was speaking to version N.
2:44:06 PM
MR. HOSTINA said the university appreciates the areas in version
N that permit management and does not oppose the bill in its
current form. However, it could be improved in three respects.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked for clarification that the committee is
considering version N and Senator Coghill moved version N.
CHAIR MCGUIRE summarized the foregoing discussion for Senator
Micciche and noted his point was good regarding areas that are
permitted and whether or not that right to permit would be
abused. She noted she asked the committee to think about whether
or not a permitted entity, agency, group becomes an arm of the
state regulating itself. If so, that's a slippery slope, she
said. It's something that should be discussed on the record and
have some sideboards.
SENATOR COGHILL noted the memo to the sponsor that says the
right to keep and bear arms is based on two fundamental
principles: the right to privacy and the right to bear arms. He
said the amendments tried to consider public safety and those
two bedrock principles and enforce them in the least restrictive
manner. He noted that an individual right can be managed but it
does not dissipate.
2:49:18 PM
JAMES JOHNSEN, President, University of Alaska System,
Fairbanks, Alaska, thanked the sponsor for the four changes
reflected in the current committee substitute (CS), [version N].
They will allow the Board of Regents to manage firearms in
common, high conflict, high risk situations. That said, the
university believes the bill could be improved in three areas
that are not addressed in the CS. Two are substantive and one is
technical.
First, the university requests the ability to regulate concealed
carry of handguns or knives in a manner consistent with existing
law regarding K-12. He emphasized that there is no intent to
regulate outside the facilities where dedicated K-12 programs
are occurring or at times when those programs are not taking
place. He offered to work with the sponsor and committee on a
provision that is specifically and narrowly focused on this
concern.
Second, the university supports concealed carry with a permit.
This makes sense in conjunction with other management tools and
would ensure that a student or employee who is carrying a
concealed weapon would have some training and knowledge of gun
safety and the applicable law. Of course, people with certain,
but not all, criminal histories would be excluded from obtaining
a permit.
Third, the university requests a technical fix to include
disputes in the section addressing disciplinary issues. The
university has lots of disputes including grievances,
administrative reviews, and harassment/discrimination
complaints. They don't typically involve discipline but disputes
are emotional and volatile.
CHAIR MCGUIRE stressed that the tone of the questions isn't
meant to convey disrespect for the university's right to have a
position on the subject.
2:55:40 PM
CHAIR MCGUIRE held SB 174 in committee with public testimony
open.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| SB 174 Letters of Opposition Combined (Feb. 24, 2016).pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 |
| SB 174 Letters of Support Combined (Feb. 24, 2016).pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 |
| SB 174 SEDC Summary of Changes versions H to N.pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 |
| SB 174 Senate Education Committee Report.pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 |
| SB 174 Supporting Docs. Senate Majority Legal Memo Regarding Campus Carry SB 176 (April 3, 2014).pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 SB 176 |
| SB 174 Supporting Docs. University of Alaska General Counsel regarding Campus Carry SB 176 (March 31, 2014).pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 SB 176 |
| SB 174 New York Times Article Opposition.pdf |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
|
| Sb 174 Support Coons.msg |
SJUD 2/29/2016 1:30:00 PM |
SB 174 |