Legislature(2009 - 2010)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)
03/09/2010 01:30 PM Senate LABOR & COMMERCE
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB153 | |
| SB302 | |
| SB129 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 129 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SB 302 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 153 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SB 129-RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLER SYSTEMS
2:38:16 PM
CHAIR PASKVAN announced SB 129 to be up for consideration. [CSSB
129 (L&C), labeled 26-LS0679\M, was before the committee.] He
said he was contacted earlier today and was offered a building
code adoption procedure for all of the relevant jurisdictions
around Alaska, and he would distribute it to the committee so
they could see what procedures are in place currently.
2:39:34 PM
PAUL MICHELSOHN, Jr., Alaska State Homebuilder's Association,
said he has been a builder in Anchorage for 34 years. He belongs
to National Association of Homebuilders, is a member of the
Construction, Codes and Standards (CCNS) Committee, and has
served on the Municipality of Anchorage's Building Code
Committee for 17 years where his primary purpose is to decide
which code to go with if there is an argument. He added that he
sat on the International Code Conference (ICC), its Fire and
Life Safety Code for two years and the International Residential
Code (IRC) for four years. He had been involved with code review
in Anchorage for seven code cycles.
He said he had heard how the code process today is fair and
equitable to all concerned, but he disagreed with that, because
"being involved for seven code cycles, the public has never been
notified." He said that notices are posted, but the average home
owner doesn't care about code until it directly affects them. He
said he has been involved with the sprinkler issue on a national
level for 10 years.
2:42:40 PM
MR. MICHELSOHN explained that at the ICC level, the way a code
is developed and adopted is that one is appointed to a committee
and the codes then are submitted and proposed and the committee
votes on them. After that they are passed on to the mother
committee that is made up of fire and building officials
throughout America. Again, he said, there is no public
involvement, and these individual decide which codes will be in
the code book and which ones won't. If it was a true public
awareness and a true public process, he didn't think they would
be here today.
In the fall ICC board meeting, he stated, the Fire Coalition
shipped in an additional 1800 people for one vote, the vote on
this issue. Ten minutes before the vote was taken 385 people
were in audience; when this vote came up there were 1890. When
this vote was over seven minutes later 402 remained.
MR. MICHELSOHN said he has heard a lot about cost, but the issue
of cost is not relevant. Costs will be what they are; once
sprinklers are mandated they will have the potential to rise
immediately.
MR. MICHELSOHN said he was asking for transparency in terms of
preparing a cost analysis and other listed items for any
jurisdiction that chose to mandate installation of fire
sprinklers in one and two family dwellings. He estimated that
installing sprinklers in 800,000 units in the United States for
a year would cost $1.7 million - and "to save one life."
2:45:29 PM
MR. MICHELSOHN said the Homebuilders are asking to have three
public hearings, and the reason is that the public is not
notified and they are not aware of the process. This will give
the homebuilders, industry and real estate agents time to
educate and bring people forward for a chance to decide whether
they want sprinklers or not. He asked if the process was so
transparent why so many organizations are against it.
2:46:41 PM
SENATOR BUNDE said Arizona was quoted on how using sprinklers
reduced property damage and saved lives, and it occurred to him
that a potential downside is if the power goes out in your house
and your pipes freeze and you have a sprinkler system.
MR. MICHELSOHN answered that installing fire sprinklers has a
lot of downside. The size of the water line would have to be
increased from the state's requirement of .75 inches to 1.5
inches, and right now Anchorage has a 1-inch minimum.
Sometimes pumps will be needed, he said, and the Fire Coalition
states that most fires are electrical. If you have an electrical
fire and the power shuts off, you don't have power to pump the
system. The first thing the fire department does when they
approach a house or fire is shut the power off so no one gets
electrocuted. He said the Alaska Homebuilders have supported
using smoke detectors and educating people on how to use them.
Sprinkler systems save buildings and fire sprinklers aren't
necessarily lifesaving issues.
2:48:58 PM
Another downside is the needed increase in the service lines in
jurisdictions that already don't have adequate service to supply
the houses with the water they might need.
SENATOR BUNDE asked about people with onsite water systems
instead of continuous services like in town.
MR. MICHELSOHN replied that he had installed six sprinkler
systems in houses in the last 10 years and the cost has ranged
from $25,000 to $38,000. On one project he was asked to bring in
and eight-inch water main; that alone cost $12,000. Another
project with an off-site well needed two 350-gallon storage
tanks for water to operate the fire system.
He also pointed out that these systems need to be inspected, but
of all the ones he had installed, he asked, and none of them
have had their systems inspected. They range from 7 years to 2.5
years old.
2:51:03 PM
CHARLES EDWARDSON, Project Manager, Ketchikan Indian Community
Housing Authority, Ketchikan, said he teaches construction
technology at UAA and is a treasurer for the Alaska State
Homebuilders Association. He said he supported SB 129. He said
the rural challenges are too numerous to list in both cost and
logistics. He agreed with Mr. Michelson that most people don't
know what their local community is adopting.
He said they have learned there are two sides to an issue. When
the Fire Marshall tried to get this adopted by the City Council,
the issue went away altogether because the Homebuilders
Association brought in some facts and figures of their own.
CHAIR PASKVAN remarked that it sounds like the process in
Ketchikan worked.
MR. EDWARDSON said it wouldn't have worked if the Homebuilders
hadn't intervened. They maintain that the science hasn't been
proven yet and that smoke detectors save more lives.
CHAIR PASKVAN encouraged him to focus on the CS that talked
about the process.
MR. EDWARDSON encouraged preparing the cost benefit analysis for
new residential fire sprinkler systems so that the process has
transparency. Another point he raised is that the housing
authority he works for provides low income housing for many
people. They just completed a 24-unit housing project in
Ketchikan and that wouldn't have been possible with the
additional cost of sprinkler installation.
2:56:22 PM
DAVID OWENS, Building Inspector, Owens Inspection Services,
Palmer, requested that his email become part of the record. He
said he didn't think it was unreasonable to ask for numerous
public meetings on big ticket items like sprinkler systems.
Providing a cost analysis on something that will cost a lot of
money is also not unreasonable. As a building inspector, he
said, he gets the brunt of things when they get "railroaded
through." For example, the last electrical code - it had one
public hearing over the holiday period and the next thing they
know, its law. Now they have to put arch-weld circuit breakers
in all of their houses; they had something to say about it, but
didn't get the opportunity.
2:58:33 PM
ART CLARK, Alaska Association of Realtors, said using the safety
issue as a way to get something passed quickly is very seductive
especially when people don't get a chance to understand all the
implications. He supported SB 129, because it would allow time
for a better understanding of things.
SENATOR BUNDE asked if he could speculate on the value of homes
with sprinkler systems versus and those without. Would it have
an impact on resale value of the non sprinkler homes or would
the cost of the new homes be so high it wouldn't make any
difference?
MR. CLARK said it might be a little bit of both. Perhaps the
resale value of homes without sprinklers would be impacted, but
on the other hand he couldn't see new buyers paying that much
more for it. So the people who paid for the initial sprinkler
system possibly wouldn't be able to get those dollars out of it
down the road.
3:00:51 PM
DAVID MILLER, Fire Chief, Sitka, opposed SB 129 and said let the
communities decide for themselves. He said that most local
communities have the process established already.
3:02:17 PM
KELLY NICOLELLO, Deputy Director, Alaska State Fire Marshall's
Office, Division of Fire and Life Safety, Department of Public
Safety (DPS), said he did not have a position on SB 129, because
as written it has no effect on the state. He offered to answer
questions.
3:02:53 PM
DAVE HOE, Fire Chief, North Tongass Volunteer Fire Department,
Ketchikan, opposed SB 129. He said the idea that the sprinkler
system saves lives is irrefutable. For instance, numerous
studies have shown that kids don't wake up to the normal smoke
detectors; they have also shown that by the time the smoke
detector goes off late at night, the disorientation of coming
out of a deep sleep to the sound of an alarm going off is
disorienting at best. A lot of times the heat and smoke by then
can make escape a significant challenge.
MR. HOE explained that years ago fire fighters could wear an air
pack and could get inside houses with six or eight minutes
before "flashover" occurred, but now, because of new
construction techniques and the use of synthetic fibers, houses
are much tighter and the flashover time has dropped to less than
three minutes - not a lot of time. Fire sprinklers will give
people more time to get out. He didn't think the state should
become involved in the debate about whether to make it more
difficult of the local municipalities to decide whether they
should be able to enact an ordinance or not.
He stated that all SB 129 does is add cost and bureaucratic
challenges to communities that may not have the ability to do
deal with them to the point that they won't even try.
3:05:52 PM
CROSBY GRINDEL, Northwest Regional Manager, National Fire
Protection Association (NFPA), said the Association opposed SB
129. He said the Association had worked to advance life and
safety issues for more than 100 year through research, education
and development of consensus codes and standards. The most
recent advances in residential sprinkler technology bring in a
new era of home fire safety.
He explained that several factors have conspired to cause the
greatest risk of fire death and injury to be in the home. In
fact, 83 percent of fire deaths and 89 percent of fire injuries
occur in the home as per their 2008 fire loss report. He said
the NFPA believes that residential sprinklers are the solution.
They support the desire of the fire service to have the option
to utilize this national standard life safety device in their
efforts to protect their communities from the devastating
effects of fire. He also pointed out that residential fire
sprinklers are significantly different than those found in
commercial buildings, and they are now in all national codes.
3:08:31 PM
MICHAEL TILLY, Fire Chief, City of Kenai, said he opposed SB
129. He said he would be negligent not to consider adding or
utilizing a technology that would make his community safer, but
this bill is not about a technology that is already recognized,
accepted and proven in many communities across the United
States. SB 129 attempts to alter the way a community does
business and targets a single idea or technology that his city
may want to use by adding unnecessary cost and stumbling blocks.
He said that communities are deferred for particular reasons -
one being that they know their community and the best processes
to educate their populace of potential changes in law.
MR. TILLY said that Kenai has adopted many fire codes and the
standing process the City Council uses has been in place and
seems to have worked well over the years. He failed to see why
this topic needed additional legislation from the State of
Alaska. The 2006 IBC Codes have hundreds of fire and building
codes that a deferred municipality either adopts or excludes
from their municipal codes. Not once have they been burdened
with doing a cost benefit analysis for any other codes.
He said these codes are adopted for their community with local
input from city building officials, fire officials, city
management, city council, and the State Fire Marshall's Office
through an already established procedure that includes public
input and adheres to AS 29.25. Feasibility, enforceability and
applicability to the community are all considered prior to
adoption.
3:11:08 PM
LARRY FLOYD, Building Official, City of Kenai, said he opposed
SB 129. He didn't see the issue as being sprinklers, but rather
that they, as building officials, know the needs of their
community and they should have the authority to determine what
is reasonable and necessary within it.
3:11:53 PM
JEFF TUCKER, President, Alaska Fire Chiefs Association,
Fairbanks, who opposed SB 129, said he would stand by for
questions.
3:12:16 PM
DENNIS BRAUDIGAN, Director, Emergency Services, MatSu Borough,
said he opposed SB 129. They strongly believe in the public
process, and their board strives to be transparent in enacting
every borough code. An enhanced public process already exists
for those codes carrying greater. In fact, their selection
process for the new Goose Creek Correctional Center resulted in
a national award because of its transparency and active
involvement by the public. Mandating local government to enhance
the public hearing process for a single issue is onerous and
unnecessary.
MR. BRAUDIGAN said currently if the Matsu Borough were to
mandate residential fire sprinkler systems the proposed code
would be required to go through the borough's planning process
by virtue of the Matsu Borough's second class municipality
status as dictated by the 2008 Supreme Court ruling in Griswold
v. City of Homer. He said this proposed code would be thoroughly
reviewed by the borough's planning commission as well as by all
borough community councils and all fire service area boards of
supervisors, all commissions, councils and boards giving
adequate public notice and allowing for public hearings. Once
the comments are heard the commissions, councils and boards
forward their respective recommendations to the Assembly prior
to public hearings. This represents a very thorough and
transparent public hearing process.
He said the Matsu Borough believes that SB 129 is not necessary
and is trying to address a process that already takes place on
an ongoing basis; therefore they oppose it.
SENATOR BUNDE remarked that they already go through the hoops
that SB 129 would make them go through, and yet he is opposed to
it.
MR. BRAUTIGAN replied that the hearing process is already
addressed at a local level.
SENATOR BUNDE retorted that they already go through these
processes, but they want the option to not go through the
process if they choose to.
MR. BRAUTIGAN replied certainly nothing less than what is in
state statute. If this is a process that should be done, maybe
it should be done for every public notice they have had. He
noted that they have had many multi-million dollar projects
throughout the borough recently, and their process was
transparent and had sufficiently engaged the public.
3:16:09 PM
JEREMY DILLARD, representing himself, said he lived in the MatSu
Valley and supported SB 129.
3:16:36 PM
DAVE DILLARD, Alaska State Building Association, asked why the
fire department is against having more public testimony. He said
sometimes the public doesn't know what is going on; requiring
sprinklers is a new thing that will be thrown on to the builders
and the cost has to be recognized. He said builders in Alaska
build better than most everybody else in the United States. He
has a budget when he builds a house and this would be a line
item in it. He said maybe people can only afford $250,000 and
wouldn't be able to buy anything with the additional cost of a
sprinkler system. The Building Association wants to have more
time to teach their clients about what they are getting.
CHAIR PASKVAN asked how this would affect what is currently in
place in Interior Alaska.
MR. DILLARD answered that Mr. Tilly represents the Homebuilders
through the commission at the city now. Since Alaska is usually
a few years behind on issues, this probably won't become an
issue until maybe 2011. The difference with the other codes is
that Alaskan builders already build beyond them, so people don't
need to be concerned.
CHAIR PASKVAN remarked that the issue for the committee members
is what the local municipal control is. The CS is a procedural
requirement.
MR. DILLARD said he thought the public needed more time to
become educated about this issue. Word has to get out.
3:22:20 PM
JEFF TWAIT, Director, Alaska State Homebuilding Association,
City of Kenai, said he supported SB 129. He said for some reason
or another, some people don't get a chance to voice their
opinions with only three meetings. Transparency is really
important.
3:24:20 PM
CHAIR PASKVAN asked how this process would modify the current
process, if at all.
MR. TWAIT said he wasn't sure what the current process is and
didn't know if any public testimony was taken from building
officials on the current code. But this bill would at least
allow public testimony to be heard.
3:25:10 PM
CHAIR PASKVAN, finding no further comments, closed public
testimony on CSSB 129().
3:25:50 PM
SENATOR MEYER said the previous bill had to do with mobile homes
and knew that in Anchorage a large percent of fires were in
mobile homes. If mobile homes are going to be treated the same
as residential homes and new ones were getting built, he said he
assumed they would have to meet the same requirements with the
sprinkler systems.
3:27:43 PM
CHAIR PASKVAN said given the fact that people wanted to present
more information to them, he would hold SB 129 and adjourned the
meeting at 3:27 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| CS SB 129 Bill Packet.pdf |
SL&C 3/2/2010 1:30:00 PM SL&C 3/9/2010 1:30:00 PM |
SB 129 |
| SB 153 Bill Packet.pdf |
SL&C 3/9/2010 1:30:00 PM |
SB 153 |
| SB 302 Bill Packet.pdf |
SFIN 3/23/2010 9:00:00 AM SL&C 3/9/2010 1:30:00 PM |
SB 302 |
| CS for SB 129 Side-by-Side.pdf |
SL&C 3/9/2010 1:30:00 PM |
SB 129 |