Legislature(2017 - 2018)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)
03/07/2018 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB124 | |
| SB109 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | SB 109 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | SB 124 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
SB 124-ABORTION PROCEDURES; CHILD SURRENDER
1:34:21 PM
CHAIR COGHILL announced the consideration of SB 124.
1:36:04 PM
SENATOR CATHY GIESSEL, Alaska State Legislature, Juneau, Alaska,
sponsor of SB 124, said the purpose of this legislation is to
give babies the opportunity to be born alive. The bill lays out
the following guidelines:
When performing or inducing an abortion the physician
shall use the method that provides the best
opportunity for the unborn child to survive.
A child born alive as a result of an abortion shall
receive the same degree of professional skill, care
and diligence to preserve the life and health of the
child as a child born in the course of natural birth
at the same fetal age.
A child born alive as a result of an abortion may be
surrendered to a physician or an employee of the
hospital or facility where the abortion is performed.
A child born alive as a result of an abortion is
considered to be a child in need of aid if the parent
is unwilling or unable to care for the child.
This bill applies to all abortions performed or
induced after the effective date. u This bill take
effect immediately.
This bill take effect immediately.
SENATOR GIESSEL said in Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973) the
Supreme Court maintained that the state has an interest in
protecting the life of a fetus after viability. That is the
point at which the fetus is capable of living outside the womb.
She said the protection of fetal life after viability has
biological justifications and may proscribe abortion during the
period of viability, except when necessary to preserve the life
and health of the mother.
SENATOR GIESSEL referenced Planned Parenthood of Central
Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52, 63(1976), 410 U. S., at 160,
163. That court upheld the definition of viability in Roe. It
signifies the point at which the fetus is "potentially able to
live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid," and
presumably capable of "meaningful life outside the mother's
womb,".
She also referenced Whitner v. State of South Carolina, 328 S.C.
1, 7-8 (S.C.1997) that addressed the issue of when a fetus is
entitled to protection. That court held that a viable fetus was
a "person" for the purposes of the Children's Code in South
Carolina.
1:39:38 PM
SENATOR GIESSEL summarized some of the sentinel events in the
development of a fetus. Week 5: vital organs form; week 8:
eyelids form; week 6: brain waves detected; week 9; sucking
thumb and yawning.
She continued to describe fetal development:
Fetal development 14 weeks after conception.
Finger Pads -2nd and 3rd months of pregnancy. 3rd and
4th months - the buckling and folding of this skin
layer is partially responsible for the unique stresses
in fingertip pads. Ridges, the faint lines on
fingertips that are the foundation of finger prints
start developing around this time.
SENATOR GIESSEL advised that at this stage of development,
removing the fetus from the uterus requires dilation and
evacuation. She said the new term for this procedure is
dismemberment.
Fetal development 23 weeks after conception.
By six months of age fingerprints and footprints are
fully developed. Three main patterns have developed
from the ridges (arches, loops, whorls). These
patterns on the fingertips, palms and soles are used
to grasp things.
SENATOR GIESSEL said it's been documented that by 20 weeks a
fetus feels pain. At 24 weeks there is response to sound. She
noted that in Alaska abortion is allowed at this stage.
Fetal development 27 weeks after conception:
Baby's eyelids can partially open and eyelashes have
formed. The central nervous system can direct rhythmic
breathing movements and control body temperature.
Fetal development 31 weeks after conception:
Baby's eyes can open wide. Red blood cells are forming
in your baby's bone marrow. Baby's toenails are
visible.
SENATOR GIESSEL said a baby would be considered term approaching
37 weeks. She noted that in Alaska an abortion could be
performed at this stage.
SENATOR GIESSEL said the concept of SB 124 is that babies would
have the best opportunity to survive at the age of viability.
She made the following points:
· In the second trimester, 96 percent of abortion procedures
are dilatation and evacuation. This is also called
dismemberment.
· The Centers for Disease Control reports, in 2014 that 9
percent of all abortions are performed on these very
developed babies.
· In the U.S. about 100,000 babies each year are aborted
using the D&E procedure.
SENATOR GIESSEL discussed the following points regarding the
dismemberment procedure.
· It is never medically necessary to preserve the life of the
mother in acute medical emergencies.
· Dilation of the cervix takes at least 36 hours
· It is often guided by ultrasound, forceps grip each
extremity and tears it off.
· The head must be crushed to remove it.
1:45:45 PM
SENATOR GIESSEL discussed survival rate estimates at different
gestational ages. At 23 weeks or less, the potential survival
rate is about 35 percent. The estimates rise as gestational age
increases.
She displayed data to show that other states and countries limit
the age after which an abortion may be performed. Multiple
states identify 20 weeks as the limit and 20 states ban an
abortion once there is viability. She said the bill takes that
into account and requires the doctor to deliver a viable baby
with the best chance of survival.
SENATOR GIESSEL said some people oppose the bill because they
don't believe it would make a meaningful difference. She's heard
the argument that it would only save 2-3 lives in Alaska. She
maintained that vastly underestimates the impact and pointed out
that every life matters.
She displayed pictures of Alaskan children who have Downs
Syndrome and noted that in Iceland pregnant women are tested for
this genetic disorder. Parents of children with this genetic
disorder are told they will be responsible for the medical and
special education costs for their child. She said the test is
only 85 percent accurate and she suspects many children without
Downs Syndrome are aborted.
1:50:01 PM
SENATOR GIESSEL noted that Oskar Schindler received a ring at a
reunion with Jewish people whose lives he saved. It was
inscribed with a quote from the Talmud that said, "…whoever
saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."
She said that's what this bill is about.
She cited a recent poll in which 76 percent said that abortion
should be limited after the end of the first trimester. To the
question of whether abortion should be prohibited for genetic
issues, 64 percent agreed. She maintained that the bill is in
keeping with the sentiments of Americans. Eight states have
identified 20 weeks as the cutoff for abortion and challenges
have been raised in six of those states. She said SB 124 is
modeled after the federal bill that failed to pass the Senate
last month. The only difference is that this bill does not
identify the age of viability and it does not provide a penalty.
She advised that she would not oppose adding those things to the
bill.
1:52:32 PM
SENATOR KELLY asked her to clarify that nothing in the bill
encourages abortions for genetic disorders such as Downs
Syndrome.
SENATOR GIESSEL said she called out Iceland to demonstrate how
far an abortion mandate can go. She added, "These are productive
individuals and absolutely should be given the opportunity to be
born alive."
1:53:42 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said his research shows that the earliest a
premature baby can survive is 21 weeks and 4 or 5 days. He asked
if she agrees.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied that is approximately correct at present
but technology is always improving, which is why the bill
doesn't identify an age of viability.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI directed attention to the DHSS 2016 Induced
Termination of Pregnancy Statistics publication that her office
provided. On page 6 it says that 99.5 percent of induced
terminations in Alaska were performed at 13 weeks or less
gestational age. He asked if she had any reason to dispute that.
SENATOR GIESSEL said no.
CHAIR COGHILL said this is an issue that is near and dear to his
heart and he appreciates the sponsor bringing it forward.
Abortion is a question that is discussed as a moral issue, a
legal issue, and a political issue but it's really a child
issue. Roe v. Wade made it a legal issue and people like himself
are trying to value a life under the rule of law in the best way
possible. People who are very, very prolife don't believe this
bill goes far enough. It preserves the woman's right and still
gives the child a chance to be treated well.
He asked Ms. Nore to go through the sectional analysis.
1:57:25 PM
KARI NORE, Staff, Senator Cathy Giessel, Alaska State
Legislature Juneau, Alaska provided the following sectional
analysis for SB 124, version U:
Section 1: Amends AS 18.16.010 by adding new
subsections to provide for a physician to use the
method of terminating the pregnancy that best provides
for the unborn child to survive outside the mother's
womb. It requires health practitioners present at the
procedure to exercise the same degree of professional
practice and diligence to preserve the life of the
viable child born as would be provided to a child born
through the course of natural birth. Provides
definitions for "alive," "clinical judgment,"
"fertilization," and "fetal age."
Section 2: Amends AS 18.16 by adding a new section
that would allow a parent of a child born alive during
the process of an abortion to surrender the child to a
physician or employee of the hospital. The person to
whom the child had been surrendered will notify the
Department of Health and Social Services as required
under AS 47.10.013(d).
Section 3: Amends AS 47.10.011 and adds a provision in
the Child in Need of Aid (CINA) statue to include a
child born alive during the termination of a pregnancy
whose parent is unwilling or unable to care for the
infant.
Section 4: Adds an applicability provision that states
that AS 18.16.010(k)-(m), added by Sec. 1, AS
18.16.012, added by Sec. 2, and AS 47.10.011, as
amended by Sec. 3 apply to abortions performed or
induced on or after the effective dates of those
sections.
Section 5: Provides for an immediate effective date
for this Act
1:59:25 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI referenced the language in Section 1 and
asked which methods of abortion allow for a child to survive.
SENATOR GIESSEL said that would be an induced delivery.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if a hysterotomy (c section) is a
safer method of abortion.
SENATOR GIESSEL said yes, and if it's a question of saving the
mother's life, a c section would be done.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if a c section is major surgery.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied some regard it as that but it's become
rather minimal surgery.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said the information he's seen indicates a
woman who has had a c section stays in the hospital 2-3 days and
is recommended to stay off work for six weeks. He asked if she
agreed.
SENATOR GIESSEL said it depends on the woman and her fundamental
health.
CHAIR COGHILL said his daughter had twins with a c section and
she had two days of rest with the twins and then she went back
to work.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI referenced a document from the Mayo Clinic
that said, "After a c section you face a higher risk of
potentially serious complications in a subsequent pregnancy,
including problems with the placenta." He asked if she would
agree with that statement.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied a phenomenal number of c sections are
done in this country. It's become a very common way to deliver
babies and it's an overstatement to say it jeopardizes future
pregnancies or the life of the mother.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI responded that it's a direct quote from the
Mayo Clinic. Noting that 21 weeks and 4 days was the earliest a
premature baby has survived, he asked how many abortions in
Alaska in the last five years were done after 21 weeks.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied those numbers are on page 11 of the DHSS
2016 Induced Termination of Pregnancy Statistics publication.
She directed attention to the category of "Not Stated" which
could mean those not wanting to admit the age of the child at
the time of the abortion.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if she agrees that in 2016 there were
zero abortions at 21-24 weeks.
SENATOR GIESSEL agreed and pointed out that four were in the
"Not Stated" category and two are in the 17 to 20-week bracket.
She said technology is always improving and she believes that
every life is worth saving.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI noted that the lowest recorded age for a
surviving fetus in the world is 21 weeks. He asked if a
physician would be required to perform a different type of
abortion procedure on fetuses under 21 weeks.
CHAIR COGHILL requested he share the document with world
statistics with the committee. He asked him to restate the
question.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said a baby born May 20, 1987 at 21 weeks
and five days was the earliest premature baby in the world. A
more recent document said a baby was born at 21 weeks and four
days. If the bill passes, he asked if physicians would have to
perform induced labor or a hysterotomy if the gestational age is
younger than 21 weeks and four days.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied it is left to the professional judgement
of the physician. She added that because gestational age is
often incorrect, it's not advisable to set a specific date in
these situations.
CHAIR COGHILL asked if ultrasound or other technology helps to
determine gestational age.
SENATOR GIESSEL confirmed that ultrasounds are very helpful in
determining gestational age and viability.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI noted that since 1999, 0.5 percent of
abortions are done at 13 weeks or earlier. He asked if it's
possible to induce labor or perform a hysterotomy that would
save the life of a child at 13 weeks gestational age.
SENATOR GIESSEL said the bill doesn't limit the age because
technology advances may make that possible at some point.
SENATOR COGHILL commented on technologic advances in other areas
and said, "We're continually trying to figure out ways how we
guard that life."
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if it's accurate that if the
technology were to improve, any woman who wanted an abortion
would need to have a c section.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied the bill doesn't make that dramatic
statement.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if she would agree that's the effect
of the bill.
SENATOR GIESSEL clarified that the bill says, "In the
professional judgment of the physician, if viability is likely
then the best opportunity for survival must be given to the
baby."
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there are criminal penalties if a
physician violates the provision.
SENATOR GIESSEL said she purposely did not include that but
would welcome an amendment. The physician is required to use
their ethical and professional judgment.
2:11:42 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI directed attention to page 2 lines 5-7,
that defines "alive." He asked if "spontaneous respiratory or
cardiac function or pulsation of the umbilical cord means after
removal from the womb.
SENATOR GIESSEL said yes.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he assumes pulsation of the umbilical
cord happens very early on.
SENATOR GIESSEL said pulsation of the umbilical cord indicates
the circulatory system is functioning.
CHAIR COGHILL said if he were to look at accountability he'd
start with the reporting. He opined that based on the 2016
report, the DHSS fiscal note will be easy to challenge.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI directed attention to the definitions of
induced termination procedures in Appendix A on page 18 and 19
of the DHSS 2016 report. Noting that she said that induced labor
and a hysterotomy provided the best opportunity for the unborn
child to survive, he asked which of the procedures would be
induced labor.
SENATOR GIESSEL said none of the listed procedures would result
in a live birth. "There's no way that induced delivery, induced
labor would be listed here. It's not a way to kill the baby."
2:16:58 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI read the language on page 1, lines 7-9. He
said if induced labor isn't a method of terminating the
pregnancy, that leaves a hysterotomy or c section. Should the
bill pass, every woman in Alaska who wants an abortion would be
required to get a c section if the physician determines that is
the best way to save the child. He asked if she agreed with his
reading.
SENATOR GIESSEL said she was somewhat tempted to suggest he was
practicing medicine without a license. She said the normal way a
pregnancy is terminated is with the delivery of the baby. The
methods listed on page 18 of the report are induced termination
procedures that do not result in a live birth.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he didn't have any medical expertise
but the language in Section 1 seems to leave a woman who wants
to terminate a pregnancy with the only option of having a c
section.
SENATOR KELLY read the definition of "Induced Termination of
Pregnancy" on page 18 of the report and said he didn't think it
followed that the woman would have to have a c section.
CHAIR COGHILL added that termination of pregnancy that results
in a live birth would be added to the statutes if the bill were
to pass.
2:20:03 PM
SENATOR GIESSEL said the subject of c section came up because it
is a method of terminating a pregnancy that would be employed if
it were an emergency procedure to save the mother's life. A D&E
is not an emergency procedure because it takes at least 36 hours
to dilate the cervix.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked for confirmation that the bill
doesn't seek to ban D&Es.
SENATOR GIESSEL replied it is a procedure called dismemberment.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if she was seeking to ban the
procedure.
SENATOR GIESSEL responded that the procedure involves dilating
the cervix and entering it with a tool that grasps and
dismembers pieces of babies.
CHAIR COGHILL said that for some people, the controversy is
there should never be any dismemberment. Not at at any stage. He
agrees with that viewpoint. The bill maintains the mother's
right to terminate the pregnancy and directs the physician to
use their clinical judgment and use the procedure that provides
the best opportunity for the unborn child to survive. The
question of viability rests with the physician.
SENATOR GIESSEL confirmed that viability is the basis of the
bill.
CHAIR COGHILL thanked the sponsor for the introduction. His
intention is to take public testimony Monday, consider
amendments on Wednesday, and move the bill either Wednesday or
Friday.
2:23:10 PM
CHAIR COGHILL held SB 124 in committee.