Legislature(2011 - 2012)BELTZ 105 (TSBldg)
02/25/2011 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB17 | |
| SB11 | |
| SB39 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 11 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | SB 17 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 39 | TELECONFERENCED | |
SB 17-SYNTHETIC CANNABINOIDS
1:31:47 PM
CHAIR FRENCH announced the consideration of SB 17 and asked for
a motion to adopt the work draft committee substitute (CS).
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI moved to adopt the work draft committee
substitute to SB 17, labeled 27-LS0121\D, as the working
document. There being no objection, version D was before the
committee.
1:32:24 PM
CHRISTINE MARASEGAN, staff to Senator Meyer, said SB 17
classifies synthetic cannabinoids and the CS moves these
substances from schedule IIA, which is in AS 11.71.150, to
schedule IIIA, which is in AS 11.71.260. She noted the letters
of support including the Alaska Peace Officers Association,
Women Police Alaska, Alaska Association of Chiefs of Police,
Municipality of Anchorage, Alaska Mental Health Board, Alaska
Advisory Board on Alcoholism and Drug Abuse, and Fairbanks
Police.
CHAIR FRENCH asked what general affect the proposed change in
classification would have on possession of cannabinoids.
1:33:06 PM
SENATOR COGHILL joined the committee.
MS. MARASEGAN explained that possession of cannabinoids under
schedule IIA would be a class C felony although there would
probably be room for presumptive sentencing. Possession of a
schedule IIIA controlled substance, which the current CS
proposes, would be a class A misdemeanor. That penalty is a
maximum one year in prison and a $10,000 fine.
SENATOR COGHILL asked when this product would have to be taken
off the retail shelf after the bill is implemented.
CHAIR FRENCH offered an opinion and asked Ms. Carpeneti for a
definitive answer.
SENATOR COGHILL expressed concern about giving retailers
sufficient notice to change their behavior.
1:36:45 PM
ANNE CARPENETI, Assistant Attorney General, Criminal Division,
Department of Law (DOL), said the current CS has an immediate
effective date, which would be the day after the governor signs
the bill.
SENATOR COGHILL expressed concern about the public policy of
making retailers liable the moment the bill is signed into law.
1:37:31 PM
JENNIFER MESSICK, Traffic Safety Resource Prosecutor,
Municipality of Anchorage (MOA), stated that the MOA supports
classifying synthetic cannabinoids as schedule IIA drugs for
five reasons. 1) Schedule IIA has cyclic drugs and Spice is a
cyclic. Its effects are similar to PCP and LSD and users
oftentimes experience different symptoms. She provided examples
of erratic to psychotic behavior and two examples that resulted
in death. This is compared to marijuana and hash, which affects
users in very similar and predictable ways. "Generally people
are tired, lazy, hungry, and maybe euphoric or relaxed," she
stated. 2) The U.S. Poison Control Center says that the symptoms
of Spice are more similar to methamphetamine and PCPs than to
marijuana.
1:43:51 PM
At ease due to teleconference difficulties.
1:45:59 PM
CHAIR FRENCH reconvened the meeting and called for committee
questions.
SENATOR PASKVAN asked if her department had any peer-review
studies that address synthetic cannabinoids.
MS. MESSICK said no because there have been no scientific
studies on human subjects. In the mid '90s pharmaceutical
companies were in competition to develop a synthetic cannabinoid
that had just the medicinally desirable qualities of marijuana.
The compounds that are commonly found in K2 and Spice were
discarded as unsuitable for human testing because of the way
they affected rats and pigeons during testing. The scientists
nonetheless published their results and "basement scientists"
began using these discarded formulas. While these compounds are
marketed as incense, they are really only intended to get the
user high.
1:48:41 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN asked her to cite her sources.
MS. MESSICK said John W. Huffman, the researcher who developed
most of these compounds, has been quoted in a number of
published articles warning potential users. He has stated that
these compounds were never intended for human consumption and
that using them is tantamount to playing Russian roulette
She informed the committee that the Municipality of Anchorage
became aware of these compounds in April 2010 and in retrospect
they were seeing evidence of drivers that were probably impaired
by these compounds for 18 months prior to that. Blood tests from
Spice impaired drivers detect nothing. Since that time the
municipality has amassed an extensive depth of knowledge on
these compounds, and she has traveled to other states to conduct
training on these compounds for law enforcement, the military,
and counter-drug intelligence officials.
SENATOR PASKVAN asked if she had source documents from Dr.
Huffman that tell where these synthetic cannabinoids came from
and that they were not intended for human consumption.
MS. MESSICK replied she could provide that information.
CHAIR FRENCH noted that testimony last week indicated that the
Anchorage municipal assembly decided to make possession of K2
essentially a traffic ticket. He asked if K2 is still
commercially available in Anchorage.
MS. MESSICK answered yes, the compounds found in both Spice and
K2 are still available on the black market and in tobacco and
head shops. The MOA enacted the ordinance because it doesn't
have the authority to make possession a felony. They took this
step because high school students were using these compounds and
experiencing alarming reactions. She opined that one thing that
makes this drug so dangerous is that it's marketed to look like
marijuana. This makes it attractive and it appears to be safe.
Furthermore, the government hasn't criminalized possession and
use and that sends the message that it's not a big deal. If the
municipality had had the authority to make it a felony, it would
have done so, she said.
1:56:26 PM
CHAIR FRENCH asked her to clarify whether the penalty for
possession of K2 within the MOA is a misdemeanor that can send a
person to jail for six months or a traffic ticket that carries a
fine.
MS. MESSICK replied it can be either. Two subsections of the
municipal penal code address distributors and those are
mandatory misdemeanor violations. Two subsequent subsections
address low level possession and the officer has the option of
citing a misdemeanor or using the civil fine. She opined that
the city took this route because it doesn't have the authority
to prosecute juveniles for misdemeanor offenses that aren't
traffic oriented.
CHAIR FRENCH said he has difficulty believing that head shops
still sell K2 if it's a misdemeanor in the municipal code.
MS. MESSICK replied the manufacturers anticipated
criminalization and they've substituted analog compounds; the
affect is the same but the chemical structure is slightly
different.
CHAIR FRENCH asked if this is backed up by research or
supposition.
MS. MESSICK replied law enforcement doesn't have a test for
these substances but analog compounds are advertized on the
Internet so the police know they're being used.
1:59:56 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if Anchorage is seeing problems with
other drugs like heroin, meth, crack or cocaine.
MS. MESSICK said yes; heroin is popular in Anchorage and
methamphetamine is in evidence.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked why she thinks that outlawing
synthetic cannabinoids will solve the problem when drugs that
are already illegal continue to be a problem.
MS. MESSICK replied the legislation would provide a framework
for future action and without it, law enforcement is helpless.
Furthermore, a schedule II classification would send the clear
message that these substances are dangerous. This is how the
government protects citizens, she said.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how many people are in jail in
Anchorage for drug-related offenses.
MS. MESSICK said she had no idea.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how many people have been found to
have used synthetic cannabinoids.
MS. MESSICK estimated that since April 2010 there have been
several hundred bad incidents reported by APD, the fire
department, and school officials. The most common users of this
very dangerous drug are age 14-17.
2:05:21 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if the police could get a search
warrant to search a house if they pull someone over and have
reason to believe that they're under the influence of synthetic
cannabinoids.
MS. MESSICK replied that wouldn't be appropriate, but if an
officer reasonably believes that a person is impaired, he or she
could get a search warrant for the person's blood. One lab in
the U.S. can detect synthetic cannabinoids in blood and several
others can detect it in urine. She offered to provide
information showing that this drug is a problem in all 50
states.
2:08:06 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN asked if it would be a good starting point to
criminalize the manufacture and distribution. This would target
the top of the pyramid rather than the bottom.
MS. MESSICK said yes, but kids would still have ready access
over the Internet.
CHAIR FRENCH said at this point he's interested in hearing from
a chemist/lawyer who can tell him how broad he can craft the
language to capture as many substances as possible and still
give fair warning to the people who are manufacturing and
distributing. At the same time he wants to work on the issues
that make it possible for the big fish to move on while the dumb
kid who has a little in his pocket goes to jail or has his
future ruined.
SENATOR PASKVAN noted that she used the term "future action" and
asked if she anticipates the need for future legislative action.
MS. MESSICK addressed Senator French's comments and emphasized
that possession should be illegal but she would agree that
crafting a law that is sufficiently broad to include new analogs
is problematic.
2:13:27 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN said if she didn't intend that "future action"
meant future legislative action then he would withdraw the
question.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI stated support for taking a more
comprehensive look at this issue and suggested that targeting
the manufacturers was better policy than throwing teens in jail
for possessing this substance.
2:15:49 PM
CHAIR FRENCH asked the drafter to comment on how broadly the
definition could be cast to warn people that what they're doing
is illegal and encompass future mutations, without running afoul
of the constitution.
2:16:22 PM
JERRY LUCKHAUPT, Assistant Revisor of Statutes, Legislative
Legal Services, Legislative Affairs Agency, said he attempted to
draft the bill as broadly as he thought possible. The bill lists
the substances that other states have made illegal and it
includes language about salts, isomers, and salts of isomers to
cover the normal ways to make an analog. He noted that states
that have tried to address analogs describing them as "similar"
compounds have been largely unsuccessful because that doesn't
give proper notice. The federal government passed the Federal
Analog Act about 30 years ago, but after a federal court in
Colorado found it unconstitutional, there were no further
prosecutions. At most, it's used as a negotiation point on
another matter.
2:20:14 PM
CHAIR FRENCH asked if the federal government had taken action on
the substances addressed in the bill.
MR. LUCKHAUPT replied the federal government is in the process
of listing five of the substances and HU-210 is already listed
under federal law. Five other substances will be listed after
the requisite studies are finished.
2:21:01 PM
CHAIR FRENCH asked Mr. Dym if the state crime lab could test for
these substances if they were made illegal.
ORIN DYM, Forensic Laboratory Manager, Statewide Crime
Laboratory, Department of Public Safety (DPS), stated that the
lab would need to purchase standards to make the comparison, but
the instrumentation and expertise is on hand so they could
provide the service in the near future.
CHAIR FRENCH surmised that the Anchorage Police Department had
not asked for testing based on the municipal ordinance.
MR. DYM responded that they informed the APD that the lab would
prepare to conduct the tests if this were to become state law.
SENATOR PASKVAN asked what the additional costs would be.
MR. DYM replied the chemicals would cost about $10,500 and they
are asking for an additional position to do the testing.
2:23:53 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked for clarification on the municipal
and federal laws.
MR. LUCKHAUPT explained that there is a federal law in place for
at least one of these substances and hopefully five others will
be listed in the next few months.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if a 17-year-old who was in
possession could theoretically be prosecuted under the municipal
law, the state law, and the federal law.
MR. LUCKHAUPT opined that a person could receive a civil
citation under municipal law and be prosecuted under both state
and federal laws.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI commented that a new prison will be needed
every five or ten years if laws like this are passed.
CHAIR FRENCH asked Mr. Luckhaupt to reiterate whether or not
this language is broad enough to capture new compounds, but
narrow enough to be constitutional.
MR. LUCKHAUPT opined that the language is sufficiently broad
enough without becoming unconstitutional. He informed the
committee that, in a similar circumstance, it didn't work in the
'80s when efforts were made to criminalize ecstasy and drugs
that were similar, because the laws didn't provide the
constitutionally required notice. Unfortunately, when a new
designer drug is created, it has to be addressed individually
and added to the schedules.
2:27:13 PM
CHAIR FRENCH said he's disheartened so far by the experience in
the municipality because his assumption was that if it was
illegal it would disappear from the retail shelves and people
would stop seeking it out.
MR. LUCKHAUPT said once the federal government makes these
substances illegal, importation will slow.
2:29:11 PM
SENATOR COGHILL said the immediate effective date caught his
attention and he questions whether the legislative hearings are
sufficient notice.
MR. LUCKHAUPT opined that the head shops will be aware of what's
occurring between the time this passes and the governor signs it
into law. He added that he doubts there would be a problem with
a prosecution occurring under that circumstance.
SENATOR COGHILL said his other point is that it would probably
be easier to prosecute sellers than buyers.
MR. LUCKHAUPT said that while testing the end-user is the issue
right now, he's sure that employers are looking for ways to
include this in a urinalysis. Testimony in other committees
indicates that several companies already do this.
2:33:01 PM
ZACHORY ALEXANDER PEASE, representing himself, stated that in
his opinion this is the most volatile, disgusting drug since the
introduction of Oxycontin. He was tricked into smoking it and
the experience was not good. "As a young person I think that we
need to get this off the streets as soon as possible," he said.
CHAIR FRENCH asked if any committee member needed additional
information in order to make a decision about the bill.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he'd like DOL to supply information
about the number of people in jail in Alaska for possession of
drugs and what this costs.
CHAIR FRENCH announced he would hold SB 17 awaiting the
information.
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