Legislature(2021 - 2022)BARNES 124
04/28/2021 03:15 PM House LABOR & COMMERCE
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HJR19 | |
| HB149 | |
| HB146 | |
| Occupational Safety and Health Review Board | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | HJR 19 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | HB 149 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | HB 146 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
HJR 19-SUPPORTING INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE
3:26:44 PM
CO-CHAIR FIELDS announced that the first order of business would
be HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 19, "Supporting widespread
infrastructure investment in the state."
3:26:52 PM
CO-CHAIR SPOHNHOLZ introduced HJR 19 on behalf of the House
Labor and Commerce Standing Committee, prime sponsor. She said
that Alaska's infrastructure has been neither built nor
maintained due to low capital budgets over the past six years.
She pointed out that the average state unrestricted general fund
capital budget between fiscal year 2016 (FY 16) and FY 21 was
$123 million; the modest investments, she pointed out, have
largely existed for the sake of federal highway matching. She
said that the Alaska Municipal League (AML) testified during the
April 14, 2021, meeting of the House Labor and Commerce Standing
Committee that Alaska has a $22 billion infrastructure deficit,
with deferred maintenance for state facilities totaling $2
billion for the University of Alaska totaling $1.3 billion. She
said that Alaska's infrastructure has received a rating of "C-"
from the American Society for Civil Engineers, Alaska Chapter,
with marine highways, ports and harbors, water, and wastewater
all receiving a "D" rating due to lack of maintenance and
construction. The marine highway system needs a massive
infusion of capital, she said, and rural airports across the
state have identified hundreds of capital project needs. The
Port of Alaska at Anchorage, which supports $14 billion in
commercial activity, needs significant investment to ensure that
it will be safe in the future. She noted that this issue is of
particular importance because Alaska has only three days' worth
of food at any given time.
CO-CHAIR SPOHNHOLZ said more than 16,000 affordable homes are
needed at a cost of $7 billion, and in 2019 the Alaska Broadband
Task Force identified broadband infrastructure as critical to
meeting the need for innovation, commerce, education, and health
care. Renewable energy in Alaska is critical to reducing energy
costs, she said, particularly for rural Alaskans; proven
technologies such as hydropower and wind power already power
several areas of Alaska. She pointed out that the governor
understands the need for more renewable energy and has
introduced HB 170, which would establish a "green bank." She
said he also understands the need to address infrastructure and
has proposed a general obligation bond to pay for capital needs.
Congress is currently considering a bill that could bring
"massive" capital infusion into Alaska's economy at a critical
time, she said; HJR 19 would encourage Alaska's congressional
delegation to aggressively pursue funding for Alaska's capital
infrastructure needs. She noted the population loss due to net
outmigration and the existence of 24,000 jobs in the
construction industry, which deliver a middle class wage and are
critical to the economy.
3:31:25 PM
CO-CHAIR FIELDS opened invited testimony on HJR 19.
3:31:34 PM
CHRISTINE O'CONNOR, Executive Director, Alaska Telecom
Association, provided testimony and a PowerPoint presentation in
support of HJR 19 [hardcopy included in the committee packet].
She explained that it's useful to think of broadband networks in
two sections: "last mile" and "middle mile." The last mile
network, she said, connects a house or school to the broadband
provider; this piece can connect houses or businesses together
but needs the middle mile section to connect to the Internet.
Alaska's middle mile is a combination of technologies, she said,
with thousands of miles of fiber allowing huge capacity and fast
speeds. She said that when fiber can be built the system can
provide nearly "future-proof" capabilities. Where building
fiber isn't possible, she said, microwave networks enable
delivery of high-speed broadband; where fiber or microwave isn't
available, multiple geosynchronous satellites provide the
connection to the world.
MS. O'CONNOR pointed out Alaska's uniqueness in the middle mile
situation compared to the Lower 48, where people have nearly
ubiquitous access to fiber-backed connections. She presented
slide 7, "Middle Mile is Key - 2010," which displayed a map of
the middle mile network in 2010 showing undersea cables
connecting Alaska to the Lower 48, along with a few microwave
links; numerous black dots represent schools that were served
solely by satellite. Slide 8, "Middle Mile is Key - 2020,"
showed the result of massive investment in middle mile
connectivity including new infrastructure along the northern
coast; expansion of microwave networks in Southwest, Northwest,
and Southeast Alaska; new fiber running up the Dalton Highway;
and new terrestrial and subsea links into Canada. She presented
slide 9, "Last Mile Expansion," which read as follows [original
punctuation provided]:
braceright Over 50,000 locations upgraded/new broadband by ATA
members since 2015
braceright Projects:
braceright Alaska Communications
braceright Alaska Power & Telephone
braceright Copper Valley Telecom
braceright GCI
3:35:24 PM
MS. O'CONNOR presented slide 10, "New Middle Mile," which read
as follows [original punctuation provided]:
braceright Alaska Power & Telephone
braceright Cordova Telecom
braceright GCI
braceright KPU Telecom
braceright Matanuska Telephone Association
braceright Nushagak Cooperative
MS. O'CONNOR shared further detail regarding slide 10. She said
that Alaska Power & Telephone (AP&T) has constructed an undersea
cable between Juneau, Haines, and Skagway, and is doubling the
capacity of its microwave network between Juneau and Ketchikan;
Cordova Telecom expanded its microwave network in Prince William
Sound; GCI completed a multi-year upgrade at 42 microwave sites
in Western Alaska to add more capacity; KPU Telecom completed
Ketchikan One, the first undersea connection to Canada and
connecting to their fiber; Matanuska Telephone Association (MTA)
constructed the Al-Can One project, the first terrestrial
connection from Alaska into Canada; and Nushagak Cooperative
completed a major expansion of their microwave network in
Dillingham. She noted that the MTA and KPU projects are
providing new routes from Alaska to the Lower 48 which would
expand both the capacity coming into the state and provide
geographic diversity in case of emergency or disaster.
MS. O'CONNOR said that every time there's an opportunity to
deploy more resources to improve networks, Alaska's broadband
providers are doing so. She then presented slide 11, "ReConnect
Round 1," which displayed the Cordova Telecom Cooperative logo
and read as follows [original punctuation provided]:
braceright Dec. 3, 2019 USDA awards Cordova Telecom $18.9M grant
to connect Yakutat
MS. O'CONNOR presented slide 12, "ReConnect Round 2," which
displayed the AP&T logo and read as follows [original
punctuation provided]:
braceright October 12, 2020 USDA awards $21.5M grant to Alaska
Power & Telephone to connect Coffman Cove and Kasaan
on Prince of Wales Island.
MR. O'CONNOR presented slide 13, "Reconnect Round 2," which
displayed a GCI logo and read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
braceright October 12, 2020 USDA awards $25M grant to GCI to
build an undersea fiber connecting Unalaska, Akutan,
King Cove, Sand Point, Chignik, & Larsen Bay
MS. O'CONNOR presented slide 14, "Reconnect Round 2," which
displayed the Arctic Slope Telephone Association Cooperative
(ASTAC) logo and read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
braceright November 12, 2020 USDA awards $5.3M grant to ASTAC to
connect Kaktovik.
MR. O'CONNOR presented slide 15, "ReConnect Round 2," which
displayed the TelAlaska and MTA logos and read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
braceright November 12, 2020, USDA awards $4.1M grant to
TelAlaska & $1.9M to MTA.
braceright Brevig Mission
braceright Teller
braceright Caswell
MS. O'CONNOR characterized the projects as "transformational"
and noted that the program has a rigorous and expensive
application process and requires significant matching funds from
each awardee. She then presented slide 16, "Low Earth Orbit
Satellites - LEOS," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
braceright Starlink
braceright One Web
braceright Project Kuiper
braceright Telesat
MS. O'CONNOR said that the questions of expense, timeline, and
availability still exist. She then presented slide 17, "What's
next?" Slide 17 read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
braceright Private investment - $1.2B
braceright Federal
braceright State
braceright Congress
MS. O'CONNOR pointed out that it's critical to have stable
programs at the federal and state levels. President Joe Biden's
American Jobs Act, she said, proposed $100 billion for broadband
and states the ambitious goal to bring affordable, reliable
broadband to every American.
3:42:00 PM
CHRIS KOLEROK, Director of Policy and Government Affairs, Cook
Inlet Housing Authority (CIHA), testified in support of HJR 19.
He stated that Alaska's infrastructure is inadequate; cities and
boroughs have relied on new housing developments in order to
upgrade existing roads, water and sewer lines, and stormwater
systems. The upgrades are often needed prior to the building of
new housing, he said, and will benefit other new housing in the
future, which is one of the reasons why housing is so expensive
to build and why expensive housing is the only profitable
housing to develop. He described some of the housing structures
in Anchorage managed by CIHA and noted the Association of Alaska
Housing Authorities, a membership organization of the 14
regional housing authorities that deliver affordable housing.
MR. KOLEROK said that Alaska's housing needs are diverse but
that there aren't enough homes for everyone or for those who
earn a low income. The Alaska Housing Finance Corporation's
2019 housing assessment said that Alaska needs over 16,000
housing units to address overcrowding, he said, which present
challenges to students who study at home and those who need rest
for work. When one person has a substance abuse problem but
lives in an overcrowded home, he said, 10 or 15 other people in
the home may have their lives adversely impacted. Nearly 35
percent of homes in the Yukon-Kuskokwim region and 20 percent of
homes in the Bering Strait region have incomplete plumbing, he
said; families are left more susceptible to sickness because of
the inability to wash their hands or clothes. He said that in
Southeast Alaska 16 percent of homes are rated with a single
star for energy efficiency, along with 13 percent of homes in
the Interior and 11 percent in the Bering Strait region; this
means families spend more of their income on heating fuel.
Preserving and retrofitting homes for energy efficiency is
essential for families on limited incomes, he said.
3:47:51 PM
MR. KOLEROK stated that infrastructure is necessary for housing,
and he pointed out that Anchorage's infrastructure is outdated
and was not designed for the current population. He said that
some of the storm sewer infrastructure is a century old and made
of wood, and there are requirements that builders must upgrade
roads before they can start constructing housing; in some
instances, he said, the roads are already slated for
improvement. He said, "We have a dearth of vertical
construction in urban Alaska, and that leads into a skills gap.
As capital projects have slowed, skilled tradespeople have left
the state because there's not enough projects to keep them
continuously busy." Mr. Kolerok said that there is a constant
need to train new people, and projects are needed to take
skilled tradespeople from apprenticeship to journey status. He
said that several years' worth of capital projects are needed to
begin a self-sustaining cycle of construction and to support a
workforce, and that housing is infrastructure when speaking in
in terms of workforce, society, and economy; it is not possible
to have a well-functioning workforce that's homeless or
overcrowded. President Joe Biden's infrastructure initiative,
he said, is a "once-in-a-generation" chance for investment in
housing and infrastructure. He pointed out that infrastructure
is an eligible spending item in the Supplemental Housing
Development Grant program through the Alaska Housing Finance
Corporation (AHFC). He then talked about gap funding for low-
income housing tax credit projects; at a leverage of $20,000
per-unit, he said, would mean $10 million to pay for 500 housing
units and close the gap around housing developers needing to
upgrade infrastructure.
3:51:53 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY asked how the increased cost of materials
affects housing projects. He then asked for alternative ways of
meeting the housing need.
MR. KOLEROK replied that there is no doubt that materials costs
have greatly increased. The large influx of federal dollars is
one of the few tools CIHA has to directly address the cost
increases, he said, with the hope that improved infrastructure
would lead to improvements in logistics.
3:54:13 PM
CRYSTAL ENKVIST, Executive Director, Alaska Power Association
(APA), testified in support of HJR 19. She said that roads,
airports, and ports won't work without electricity, and that
Alaska's electricity utilities have innovated while working in
harsh conditions. She explained that power marketing
administrations such as the Bonneville Power Administration
facilitate lower electricity costs in many areas; Alaska,
however, lacks the federal investment enjoyed by many regions in
the Lower 48. Alaska's lawmakers now have the opportunity, due
to the American Rescue Plan Act and President Joe Biden's
infrastructure bill, to plan a future that includes affordable
energy. She described the effort to transition from diesel fuel
generation to hydropower and said that infrastructure
reliability would help that effort, especially in areas not
connected to the larger grid. She said there is a need for
investment in battery energy storage systems, wind turbines,
solar and hydropower projects, and transmission lines to connect
communities. She noted the success experienced by rural
communities in their efforts to integrate wind and solar power
with battery storage backups and said federal funding gives
companies the opportunity to continue innovating.
3:58:38 PM
MS. ENKVIST said that as battery storage technology has
improved, prices have decreased, and battery systems serve to
help regulate renewable power and provide an important backup in
case a power plant goes offline. The technology has statewide
applications in communities of all sizes, she said, especially
during the winter when consistent power is critical. The
Roadbelt Intertie project would increase Alaska's electric
system reliability, she said, allowing for the integration of
more renewable energy, enhance power reliability to military
installations, provide redundancy for the Anchorage-Fairbanks
intertie, and enable economic development opportunities in the
Copper Valley region. The proposed run-of-river project in
Southwest Alaska, she said, could generate power year-round and
generate up to 20 megawatts of power, depending on seasonality
and river flow; electricity and optical fiber could be provided
to Dillingham and other area communities to support the
electricity and broadband needs in the Bristol Bay region. In
South Central Alaska, she said, the railbelt utilities and the
Alaska Energy Authority have identified more than $1 billion in
transmission upgrades, removing constraints, and allowing for
better use of the Bradley Lake hydropower project that serves
more than half of Alaska's population.
MS. ENKVIST said that renewable energy generation requires a
grid that can accommodate the full potential of such energy, as
well as for safety and reliability. "There is no doubt that
Alaska can be a leader in renewable energy," she said, "but it
will take additional funding from the renewable energy fund and
other sources to get us there." Alaska's energy utilities are
integrating renewable energy sources into their portfolios, she
said, and the Renewable Energy Fund (REF) program is an
effective way to continue investment and development to benefit
communities. Electric vehicle charging stations continue to be
installed by communities and businesses, and as more of the
barriers to electric vehicle usage are addressed, more Alaskans
will consider electric vehicle purchases. Since the vehicles
are commonly charged at night, she said, electricity loads are
occurring during off-peak hours. She pointed out that electric
vehicles are popular in small communities with limited road
miles and that the development of electric vehicle charging
infrastructure would resolve a barrier to market expansion and
inform future utility planning. "Alaska's future relies on an
electric system that can fully employ the technological advances
of tomorrow," she said, "but the time to move us in that
direction is now." She said that the economy relies on
electricity and the state must invest in strategic and necessary
upgrades statewide.
4:03:43 PM
CO-CHAIR FIELDS noted that Ms. Enkvist referenced a number of
projects that were sent to members of the House Special
Committee on Energy and asked her to send the same information
to members of the House Labor and Commerce Standing Committee.
4:04:26 PM
JIM JAGER, Director, Business Continuity and External Affairs,
Port of Alaska at Anchorage, Municipality of Anchorage,
presented a PowerPoint as part of his testimony in support of
HJR 19. He presented slide 2, which read as follows [original
punctuation provided]:
4.7 MILLION TONS OF FUEL AND CARGO IN 2020
14.3 BILLION IN STATEWIDE COMMERCIAL ACTVITY IN 2019
HANDLES GOODS CONSUNSUMED BY 90% OF ALL ALASKA
RESIDENTS STATEWIDE
HALF OF ALL ALASKA INBOUND FREIGHT CROSSES ANCHORAGE'S
DOCK
HALF OF ALL THE FREIGHT THAT CROSSES ANCHORAGE'S DOCK
IS DELIVERED TO FINAL DESTINATION OUTSIDE OF ANCHORAGE
75% OF ALL NON-PETROLEUM MARINE CARGO SHIPPED INTO
ALASKA
MR. JAGER said that cargo handling, logistics, and efficiency
are driven by proximity to markets, infrastructure for handling
the cargo, and transportation connections. He pointed out that
54 percent of Alaska's population lives within an hour's drive
of the Port of Alaska at Anchorage. He said the port handles
hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of mostly private
infrastructure as detailed on slide 3, which read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
125+ ACRES OF CARGO-HANDLING INFRASTRUCTURE
3.1 MILLION BARRELS OF LIQUID FUEL STORAGE
60,000 TONS OF CEMENT STORAGE
DOCK CRANES, RO-RO TRESTLES, RAIL, PIPLINES, ETC.
SKILLED WORKFORCE
MR. JAGER presented slide 4, which displayed a graphic of
different modes of transportation, and explained that the marine
transportation system meets the road system, which meets the air
transportation system, railroad, and pipeline. He then
presented slide 5, which listed commerce, national defense, and
disaster response as the three functions of the Port of Alaska
at Anchorage. He presented slide 6, which displayed pictures of
corroded materials and read, "Docks have exceeded economic and
design life and are failing from age-related corrosion and
obsolescence." He said that a 2020 engineering study concluded
that load limits would need to be reduced and docks would need
to be closed within the next five years. He then presented
slide 7, "Port of Alaska Modernization Program," which read as
follows [original punctuation provided]:
? Replace aging docks and related infrastructure
? Improve operational safety and efficiency
? Accommodate modern shipping operations
? Improve resiliency to survive extreme seismic
events and Cook Inlet's harsh marine environment
MR. JAGER presented slide 8, which showed a picture from 2020 of
construction of a new dock, and slide 9, which showed a recent
picture of the finished dock.
MR. JAGER presented slide 10, "Petroleum & Cement Terminal
Funding," which read as follows [original punctuation provided]:
Remaining PIEP funds State Capital Grant (2012) $28
Million
SB160 State Grant (2013) $48 Million
State GO Bond (2013) $50 Million
State Grant (2019) $20 Million
Federal Grants
MARAD BUILD II Grant (2019) $25 Million
MARAD PIDP Grant (2019) $20 Million
Port Cash/Equity $2 Million
Bond Proceeds (repaid w/ PoA tariffs) $60 Million
MR. JAGER noted that federal funds are critical to
infrastructure. He then presented slide 11, "North Extension
Stabilization," which displayed an aerial picture of the area
slated for construction and which read as follows [original
punctuation provided]:
Phase 1 north extension stabilization $121 M
On-shore facilities replacement $15 M
Phase 2 north extension stabilization $128 M
MR. JAGER presented slide 12, "2022 construction: $121 million,"
and slide 13, "Balance of North Extension: $128 million," which
displayed the same picture as slide 11. He then presented slide
14, "What's next?", which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
$1 Billion+ General Cargo Terminal Replacement
? Cargo Terminal Design and Permitting (2021-24)
? Phase 1 North Extension Stabilization (2022)
? Administration Building (2022-23)
? Phase 2 North Extension Stabilization (>2022)
? Cargo Terminal 1 Replacement (2025)
? Cargo Terminal 2 Replacement (2028)
? Fuels Terminal Incorporation (>2028)
? Terminal 3 Demolition (>2030)
MR. JAGER pointed out that bonds can be repaid using tariffs,
but several large projects can't be funded by bonds, which is
why federal funding is so important.
4:12:09 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY asked for clarification about the numbers
in slide 1.
MR. JAGER replied that 90 percent of Alaska residents routinely
use items that have come through the Port of Alaska at
Anchorage.
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY asked about imports.
MR. JAGER responded that 90 percent of all goods arriving in
Alaska arrive by ship or barge; the Port of Alaska at Anchorage
handles half of all types of cargo, and half of that cargo is
transferred to a different mode of transportation and sent to
other parts of the state.
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY talked about taking mud out of the port
area and asked for alternatives in case something happens to the
port.
MR. JAGER replied that redundancies are in place in other parts
of the country; if something happens at the Port of Tacoma there
are six other nearby seaports that can handle the cargo.
Alaska's population is too small for redundant ports, he said,
pointing out that the ports at Whittier and Seward don't have
the deep water or necessary infrastructure.
4:16:08 PM
ALICE SIIRA, Executive Director, Associated General Contractors
(AGC), presented a PowerPoint as part of her testimony in
support of HJR 19. She said AGC is looking forward to providing
input as legislators develop strategic, long-term plans to
maximize funding and prioritize critical infrastructure needs to
provide immediate economic relief and employment opportunities.
She presented slide 2, "HOW MONEY FLOWS THROUGH OUR ECONOMY,"
which displayed a graphic showing that spending by construction
companies creates indirect impacts, including vendor spending on
jobs and payroll. She then presented slide 3, "IN 2019,
ALASKA'S CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY..." Slide 3 read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
Employed Alaskans
? Employed 24,000 workers, including wage & salary,
and self-employed workers
81% Alaska Residents making 86% of Alaska wages
1 in 20 Alaska jobs (5%) was in construction
Paid Alaskans
? Paid $2.3 billion in labor income, or 7% of all
earnings in Alaska
Generated Multiplier Effects
? Total impacts of 42,000 jobs and $3.4 billion in
wages
? 9% of total employment in Alaska
? 10% of total labor income in Alaska
MS. SIIRA presented slide 4, "2,507 CONSTRUCTION INDUSTRY
EMPLOYERS," which displayed a table showing 2019 statistics of
2,507 total employers, 16,396 jobs, and over $1 billion in
wages.
4:19:41 PM
MS. SIIRA noted that she skipped slide 5 and moved to slide 6,
"CONSTRUCTION WAGES," which showed that wages for specialty
trade contractors total $515 million; for heavy construction,
$449 million; and for building construction, $368 million. She
pointed out that the average annual construction worker wage is
$81,258, which is 43 percent above the average Alaska wage of
$56,983. She then presented slide 7, "TOTAL ECONOMIC IMPACT,"
which read as follows [original punctuation provided]:
? Statewide construction industry-related jobs
represent 9% of all Alaska jobs (42,000 of 453,788)
? Construction industry-related activity accounted for
$3.4B in labor income, 10% of Alaska's total labor
income ($32.7B)
MS. SIIRA presented slide 8, "STATE/FEDERAL FUNDING FOR STATE OF
ALASKA CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS," which showed the portion of the
capital budget related to construction. She said that the
federal government has been the dominant source of construction
funding since 2014, as the state's capital budget has declined.
She then discussed the impacts of COVID-19 and presented slide
9, "CONSTRUCTION ACTIVITY IMPACTS," which read as follows
[original punctuation provided]:
? As essential workers, the construction industry
continued work on projects across Alaska throughout
the pandemic.
? However, due to revenue constraints, supply chain
challenges, and complicated logistics, construction
activity was significantly impacted in 2020; these
impacts are expected to continue in 2021
MR. SIIRA said that contracts worth $50 million were cancelled,
with another $50 million in deferred spending. Slide 10,
"CONSTRUCTION COMPANY IMPACTS," displayed a chart showing the
number of initial unemployment claims by construction workers;
like other industries, construction saw a notable spike in
unemployment claims in April 2020, then the number of claims
trended downward. She said construction companies spent
hundreds of millions of dollars on overtime pay, testing, and
extra housing at work sites; many construction companies were
assisted by federal stimulus funds and about 12,000 total
employees were retained. She then presented slide 11, "THE BIG
TAKEAWAYS," which read as follows [original punctuation
provided]:
24,000 construction jobs, earning $2.3 B (81% Alaska
Resident Hire and 86% Alaska Resident Wages Paid)
Total Economic Impact of Industry: 42,000 jobs (9% of
Alaska's jobs) $3.4 B (10% of Alaska earnings)
Oil prices and COVID-19 have significantly impacted
Alaska's construction activity and construction
companies
4:25:15 PM
CO-CHAIR FIELDS opined that the construction industry did an
"extraordinary" job managing COVID-19.
4:25:54 PM
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY asked about the supply and demand of
materials in Alaska.
MS. SIIRA replied that AGC has noticed supply chain issues that
are driving up the cost of materials. She said that employers
are getting creative and hoping that the issue levels out.
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY asked whether losing the rail barge out
of Prince Rupert, British Columbia, was one of the reasons for
the supply chain issues.
MS. SIIRA replied that she would find out.
[HJR 19 was held over.]