Legislature(2023 - 2024)BUTROVICH 205
03/20/2024 01:30 PM Senate JUDICIARY
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB60 | |
| HJR3 | |
| SB134 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | SB 60 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | HJR 3 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | SB 134 | TELECONFERENCED | |
HJR 3-CONCEALED HANDGUN RECIPROCITY B/W STATES
1:41:34 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN announced the consideration of CS FOR HOUSE JOINT
RESOLUTION NO. 3(JUD) am Encouraging Congress to pass the
Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act or a similar bill.
CHAIR CLAMAN said this is the first hearing of HJR 3 in the
Senate Judiciary Committee. He invited the bill sponsor and his
staff to identify themselves for the record and begin their
remarks. He noted that staff from the administration are
available to answer questions.
1:42:19 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GEORGE RAUSCHER, District 29, Alaska State
Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, sponsor of HJR 3. HJR 3 encourages
Congress to amend the federal criminal code to allow individuals
who are qualified to carry or possess a concealed handgun in one
state to do so in another state that also allows concealed
carry.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER explained that HJR 3 urges Congress to
enact the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act, H.R. 38 from the
117th Congress, or a similar measure. He noted that the National
Rifle Association of America - Institute for Legislative Action
(NRA-ILA) has provided multiple reasons to support national
reciprocity, including:
- In 2008, the Supreme Court affirmed that individuals,
including Alaskans, have a constitutionally protected right
to keep and bear arms. Furthermore, no state can deny that
constitutional right.
- Concealed carry permit holders are among the most law-abiding
citizens. He referenced a 2014 study to support this. The study
revealed that among 875,000 Florida permit holders, the
revocation rate was 0.00007 percent, and among 584,850 Texas
permit holders, the revocation rate was 0.21 percent.
- Reciprocity laws can change frequently with little or no
public notice, putting otherwise law-abiding citizens at a
greater risk of inadvertently committing a crime. These
citizens are often unaware that they cannot drive through
certain states with concealed weapons. One such person,
Mr. Brian Fisher, while traveling through North Carolina and
New Jersey for disaster relief work, voluntarily disclosed
possession of a legally owned firearm to a New Jersey police
officer. The police officer subsequently arrested Mr. Fisher,
who faced up to five years in prison.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER stated that he requests support of HJR 3
for these and other reasons.
1:45:15 PM
RYAN MCKEE, Staff, Representative George Rauscher, Alaska State
Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, answered questions during the
discussion on HJR 3. He indicated that staff from the Department
of Public Safety (DPS) are available to take questions.
1:45:33 PM
SENATOR TOBIN stated that while she deeply respects the sponsor
and his work, she is very upset with HJR 3. She shared that she
is married to a federal law enforcement officer and has reviewed
research indicating states that have eliminated conceal and
carry permit requirements have experienced significant increases
in officer-involved shootings. She emphasized the desire for her
husband to return home safely each night. She asked whether the
sponsor had spoken with law enforcement officers or
organizations, such as fraternities of peace officers, and
whether those groups support the bill or have provided any
input.
1:46:19 PM
MR. MCKEE deferred to the Alaska State Troopers (AST),
expressing his belief that the organization has not taken a
position on HJR 3.
1:46:32 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN directed the question to Lieutenant Robert French
from AST and Lisa Purinton from DPS.
1:46:38 PM
SENATOR TOBIN requested testifiers to indicate whether they
speak on behalf of their respective organizations or for
themselves.
1:47:09 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN directed the question to Lieutenant French.
1:47:20 PM
ROBERT FRENCH, Lieutenant, Alaska State Troopers, Department of
Public Safety, Anchorage, Alaska, stated he was available to
answer general questions but not make blanket policy statements.
1:47:31 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN restated the question.
1:47:42 PM
SENATOR TOBIN clarified the question asking whether:
- he had spoken with law enforcement officers about HJR 3.
- he received any letters of support.
- his colleagues had concerns that the reciprocity legislation
could undermine Alaska's ability to protect its residents,
given other states' authority to set their own firearm
policies.
1:48:13 PM
LIEUTENANT FRENCH responded in the negative, stating he does not
have information on any of the questions posed.
1:48:24 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER stated that the key requirements for
obtaining a concealed carry permit under HJR 3 include
fingerprinting, an FBI background check, and successful
completion of a [handgun competency] program with a certificate
of completion.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER explained that applicants from
reciprocity states must meet these same core requirements. The
concealed carry permit serves as proof of compliance, thereby
removing the need for retesting in each reciprocity state. He
compared it to a driver's license, which is honored across
states. He stated that for states allowing concealed carry,
individuals could present their license to demonstrate
completion of the necessary requirements, including
fingerprinting and an FBI check. He remarked that concealed
carry permit holders likely represent one of the lowest-
offending populations. Statistically, 8.4 percent of the U.S.
adult population holds a concealed carry permit, so while the
reciprocity bill may not apply to everyone, it addresses the
rights of a notable number of people.
1:50:03 PM
SENATOR TOBIN noted that some states with concealed carry laws
include additional restrictions related to domestic violence,
stalking, or felony convictions. She stated that those
stipulations had not been mentioned and asked whether, in his
estimation, would this usurp a state's ability to include such
provisions to protect its residents.
1:50:31 PM
MR. MCKEE replied that individuals must comply with the laws of
the state they are in. He explained that HJR 3 does not suggest
one state's law could override another state's restrictions.
Once an individual enters another state, they are required to
follow that state's laws. He said HJR 3 encourages reciprocity,
meaning concealed-carry states cannot deny an out-of-state
individual permission based on residency.
1:51:13 PM
SENATOR TOBIN asked how law enforcement officers will ensure
out-of-state individuals follow Alaska concealed carry laws.
1:51:28 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER responded that law enforcement would
handle enforcement for out-of-state individuals the same as it
does for Alaskans. He explained there is no way to identify
someone carrying concealed until an offense is committed. He
expressed his belief that this is consistent across all
concealed-carry states, and stated that individuals must follow
the laws of the state that they are in.
1:53:01 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN posed a hypothetical scenario. He said that if an
individual obtains a concealed carry permit in Alaska and then
travels to another state, such as New Mexico, where the criteria
for issuing permits differ, issues may arise. For example, New
Mexico may prohibit individuals with a domestic violence
restraining order from obtaining a concealed carry permit. He
noted that he was unsure of Alaska's specific requirements, but
this hypothetical scenario assumes Alaska does not have that
same restriction. He asked whether New Mexico would be obligated
to honor Alaska's concealed carry permit even though the
individual would not qualify under New Mexico's standards.
1:53:50 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER responded that his understanding was no.
1:53:57 PM
SENATOR KIEHL sought clarification on some of the provisions in
U.S. H.R. 38, which HJR 3 endorses. He cited U.S. H.R. 38,
stating that a person who is entitled to carry a concealed
firearm in the State in which the person resides, either
through a permit or under state law, may possess or carry in any
state that does not prohibit concealed carry. He expressed his
recollection that Alaska does not require a permit to carry a
concealed firearm. He sought clarification about U.S. H.R. 38,
asking whether this means an Alaskan does not need any kind of
permit at all to carry in say New Jersey, which requires one.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER asked that the question be restated.
SENATOR KIEHL repeated that federal legislation would allow a
person who either holds a concealed carry permit in their home
state or is lawfully entitled to carry without one, to carry in
any state that does not prohibit concealed carry. He interpreted
the legislation to mean that, if enacted, an Alaskan, who does
not need a permit under Alaska law, would not need a permit to
carry in a state like New Jersey, which does require one.
1:56:05 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER agreed with that interpretation.
SENATOR KIEHL referenced committee discussion about background
checks and fingerprinting, asking whether those requirements
would apply.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER responded that, in his understanding, no
one would stop a person from carrying a concealed handgun in
Alaska since it is legal to do so, and asked whether that
answered the question.
1:56:49 PM
SENATOR KIEHL clarified that his question pertains to states
that only allow concealed carry by permit. He said that, as he
reads the federal legislation, if enacted, it would allow
Alaskans without permits to carry in another state even if that
state requires a permit. As a result, a permitless Alaskan, who
would not have undergone a background check or fingerprinting,
could legally carry in a state that mandates those requirements.
1:57:18 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER expressed his belief that this
interpretation is not accurate.
SENATOR KIEHL suggested, that based on the federal text, the
matter might be appropriate for Legislative Legal Services to
review.
SENATOR KIEHL raised concern about how the legislation addresses
limitations on where a person may carry a concealed firearm. He
remarked that the federal legislation appears somewhat
ambiguous. He referenced [page 3, line 19 page, 4, line 3] of
U.S. H.R. 38, which states that this section of the bill:
shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws
of any State that -
• permit private persons or entities to prohibit or
restrict the possession of concealed firearms on
their property; or
• prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on
any State or local government property,
installation, building, base, or park.
SENATOR KIEHL pointed out that the legislation does not appear
to address specific restrictions such as Alaska's prohibition on
concealed carry in bars, churches, or daycares.
SENATOR KIEHL sought confirmation that, if enacted, the federal
legislation would allow someone from a state where concealed
carry in churches is allowed to carry in an Alaska church where
it is illegal.
1:59:02 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER responded no, explaining individuals
would be required to abide by each participating state's laws.
He expressed his understanding that U.S. H.R. 38 does not
rewrite state law; it is intended to preserve states' rights. He
noted that while nonresidents may be permitted to carry
concealed in a bar in their home state, they would not be
permitted to do so in Alaska if Alaska law prohibits it.
SENATOR KIEHL returned to the language on page 3, line 19
through page 4, line 3 of U.S. H.R. 38, and asked why the listed
restrictions are so limited, noting that states like Alaska
impose additional carve-outs, such as those related to churches,
daycares, or bars.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER replied that he does not know.
2:01:11 PM
SENATOR KAUFMAN said the rationale behind the federal
legislation appears similar to how driver's licenses are treated
across states. He explained that a person licensed to drive in
Alaska must follow the laws of other states when driving in
them. He stated that, similarly, the concealed carry permit
could be recognized across states with the understanding that
individuals must follow local laws. He noted that it would be
interesting to see whether this rationale holds when reviewed by
Legislative Legal Services.
2:02:21 PM
SENATOR TOBIN reflected on the complication between driver's
licenses and concealed carry permits. She shared that her nephew
recently turned 18 in New York, where, prior to that age, he was
not allowed to drive with another person under 18 in his vehicle
or drive alone after 6:00 p.m. She noted that New York has
stricter rules than Alaska and emphasized that even within the
Driver License Compact, states are still permitted to establish
rules they believe are appropriate for their communities. She
stated that this is the core concern. It is to ensure that
Alaska retains the authority to define how firearms may be
carried, rather than having that authority overridden by other
states or the federal government.
SENATOR TOBIN noted that under Alaska law, individuals under the
age of 21 are prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon. She
referenced page 3 of U.S. H.R. 38 and asked the sponsor whether
Alaska's age restriction would still be honored under the bill,
requesting his interpretation.
2:03:50 PM
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER responded, stating that is not his
interpretation. He offered a supposition. If a person cannot
drive at the age of 14 in New York but can in Missouri with a
farm license, that does not mean Missouri's driving laws apply
in New York. He recalled that when he was growing up, some
states allowed 14-year-olds to obtain a farmer's license to
perform certain agricultural work. However, if individuals
operated outside those parameters, they would be in violation of
the law. He offered that such a license would not be valid in
New York unless New York had a similar farm license law.
2:04:42 PM
SENATOR TOBIN commented that was not her interpretation and that
it would be helpful to have clarification from legal counsel.
2:05:06 PM
SENATOR KIEHL cited the federal legislation, which indicates a
person must carry valid identification (ID) and concealed carry
permit documentation when in possession of a concealed handgun
in another state. He said the federal legislation definition
does not appear to include tribal identification, noting that
tribal IDs are good enough to fly and show to the Division of
Motor Vehicles (DMV).
SENATOR KIEHL asked whether the definition for identification
document in U.S. H.R. 38 includes tribal IDs.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER asked him to restate the question.
SENATOR KIEHL commented that this is a research question. He
asked whether the definition of "identification document in
U.S. H.R. 38 includes tribal IDs. He stated that many Alaska
tribes issue IDs.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER expressed his understanding that if
Alaska requires a driver's license to operate a vehicle on its
highways, and another state with concealed carry permits
requires the same, then a drivers license would be required in
both states.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER recalled that people who reside in
villages could obtain a separate type of license that required a
less extensive driving test. He said this was the case in King
Cove approximately 25 years ago, noting that circumstances may
have changed since then. He emphasized that one must obey the
laws of the state they are in and said he did not believe a
person is exempt based on where they are from. He stated he was
not sure if that fully answered the question.
2:07:27 PM
SENATOR KIEHL said that he could follow up offline and expressed
his belief that the definition includes a passport and a state-
issued ID that is not a driver's license. He expressed curiosity
whether the definition also includes a tribal ID.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER replied that he was unsure whether a
passport is sufficient to rent a car but surmised that whatever
is required to rent a car would probably apply.
2:07:56 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN stated that the federal legislation referenced in
HJR 3 is from 2021 and likely no longer active. He inquired
whether there is a current federal bill, and if so, it would be
beneficial to update HJR 3.
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER indicated he would collect that
information for the committee.
2:08:31 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN opened public testimony on HJR 3.
2:09:05 PM
TOM BOUTIN, representing self, Juneau, Alaska, testified in
support of HJR 3. He urged the committee to move HJR 3 out of
committee as soon as possible. He stated that he has held an
Alaska concealed carry permit for approximately 30 years. He
recounted an experience in which his plane out of Juneau was
delayed due to weather and by the time he landed in Boston at
midnight, his connecting flight to a constitutional carry state
had long since departed. He had a revolver in his checked
baggage, and the airline insisted he take possession of his
baggage at that time. He said there is not time to explain what
he did next and remarked that it might be somewhat shocking. He
stated that Alaskans need constitutional carry nationwide. He
said that it might be pertinent to point out that driving a car
or even riding a horse is not a constitutionally guaranteed
right, whereas the right to keep and bear arms is. He thanked
the committee for their time and for their hard work on behalf
of Alaskans.
2:10:18 PM
CHAIR CLAMAN closed public testimony on HJR 3.
CHAIR CLAMAN noted that HJR 3 needs a couple of updates, mainly:
update the speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, HJR 3
currently lists Kevin McCarthy; update the current number of
states with reciprocity, HJR 3 currently mentions 19 states with
reciprocity provisions in their statutes, including Alaska, but
he understands that the current number is 20.
CHAIR CLAMAN said the committee would likely hear the bill again
after Legislative Legal Services answers some of the outstanding
questions.
CHAIR CLAMAN held HJR 3 in committee.