Legislature(2007 - 2008)CAPITOL 106

03/06/2008 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS


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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 396 INCREASE 2008 PERM. FUND DIVIDEND TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
+= HB 261 PUBLICALLY FINANCED ELECTIONS TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
+= HB 353 PUBLIC LIBRARY INTERNET FILTERS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+= HCR 20 RESIDENTIAL FIRE SPRINKLER SYSTEMS TELECONFERENCED
Moved CSHCR 20(STA) Out of Committee
+= HB 406 COMPETITIVE BIDDING FOR BALLOT PREP TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
<Bill Held Over from 03/04/08>
HCR 20-RESIDENTIAL FIRE SPRINKLER SYSTEMS                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:27:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR  ROSES announced that  the next order of  business was                                                               
HOUSE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO.  20, Encouraging the installation                                                               
of fire sprinkler systems in residences.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:27:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL  SEATON, Alaska State  Legislature, presented                                                               
HCR 20 as  prime sponsor.  He  said each year in  Homer [the fire                                                               
department] holds  training sessions  for the community  to teach                                                               
fire safety.   Representative Seaton described  the experience he                                                               
had at one  of the training sessions, during which  he and others                                                               
stood in  a trailer to  witness a  fire purposely started  at the                                                               
other end of  the trailer and doused by  an automatic residential                                                               
sprinkler   system.     He   said  he   was   impressed  by   the                                                               
demonstration, because  while a commercial sprinkler  system will                                                               
not be  set off before  reaching 200-250 degrees  Fahrenheit, the                                                               
residential  sprinkler system  will activate  at 135-155  degrees                                                               
Fahrenheit.   Furthermore,  the residential  sprinkler sends  out                                                               
mist, so it uses much less water than the commercial sprinklers.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  said   the  availability  of  residential                                                               
sprinklers gives Alaskans a great  opportunity to protect against                                                               
fire-related  loss.   He said  sprinklers can  be retrofitted  in                                                               
homes.  He related that  currently there are incentives available                                                               
for people  who put  sprinkler systems in  their homes  when they                                                               
are built;  however, those systems require  the national standard                                                               
of one-inch pipe and a coverage  of 100 percent of the structure.                                                               
Representative  Seaton reported  that almost  all the  fires that                                                               
occur in  Alaska in  non-smoking households  take place  near the                                                               
cooking area, fireplace, or boiler/furnace.   He indicated that a                                                               
sprinkler head  can cover a 12-foot  radius.  He stated  that the                                                               
purpose of  HCR 20 is  to encourage the government  and insurance                                                               
companies to give a credit  on homeowners' insurance for Alaskans                                                               
who retrofit sprinklers  in their homes to  cover "the vulnerable                                                               
parts of their home where most of the fires occur."                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:32:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  noted that "platinum, gold,  and silver                                                               
stars" are listed on page 1,  line 14, [referring to the "various                                                               
levels  of  sprinkler coverage"].    He  asked if  Representative                                                               
Seaton would like  an amendment to add the  bronze star mentioned                                                               
in a handout in the committee packet.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said the amendment is not necessary.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  stated his  support of  the resolution.                                                               
He asked the sponsor if he  would like language added to the bill                                                               
which  would  require  a  progress report  related  to  the  fire                                                               
marshal's  compliance with  the resolution,  perhaps to  be given                                                               
after a year or two.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  answered that  he is comfortable  with the                                                               
resolution without a report requirement.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:34:39 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
[Following  is   a  video  from  YouTube,   called,  "Residential                                                               
sprinklers demonstration."]                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:38:29 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON indicated  that the  residential sprinkler                                                               
can be mounted  directly onto overhead water line  pipes, such as                                                               
are found in furnace rooms.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:39:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
[Following is a video from  YouTube, entitled, "Fresno Fire PSA -                                                               
Fire Sprinkler."]                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
8:40:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON  noted  that  included  in  the  committee                                                               
packet is:   a draft plan  produced by the fire  marshal in 2006,                                                               
and a  report showing  that although  [smoke detectors]  are very                                                               
important,  fire sprinklers  are actually  what save  lives.   He                                                               
noted  that   there  were   representatives  from   various  fire                                                               
departments  available to  testify,  as well  as  the state  fire                                                               
marshal.   He said the Department  of Labor "does not  even see a                                                               
fiscal   note   attached  with   this,"   because   any  of   the                                                               
certifications necessary are already in place.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:42:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KELLY  NIKALOLO, Assistant  Fire  Marshal, Division  of Fire  and                                                               
Life Safety,  Central Office, Department of  Public Safety (DPS),                                                               
reported   that    according   to   the   United    States   Fire                                                               
Administration,   in    2005,   the   United    States   suffered                                                               
approximately 396,000 residential fires,  which resulted in about                                                               
3,055  deaths.   Those statistics,  he said,  do not  account for                                                               
emotional loss  of loved ones  and sentimental possessions.   Mr.                                                               
Nikalolo stated that  even with [these statistics  which show] an                                                               
abysmal loss  of life, there  is still a  "substantial resistance                                                               
to requiring  residential sprinklers in new  construction today."                                                               
Furthermore, he indicated  that there would be no  way to support                                                               
such a requirement  in Alaska.  He said the  Department of Public                                                               
Safety  finds the  aforementioned  statistics  unacceptable.   He                                                               
stated, "It's  incumbent upon us  to value those  properties that                                                               
embrace the  responsibility of their  own safety and  reward them                                                               
for exercising uncommon sense and farsightedness."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. NIKALOLO said  that as described in  the proposed resolution,                                                               
the fire marshal would recognize  levels of fixed fire protection                                                               
installed  in  single family  dwellings  through  a program  that                                                               
would  be called,  "the  Residential Safety  Star  Program."   He                                                               
explained that the fixed protection  system would be installed by                                                               
qualified  installers,  as permitted  under  13  AAC 50.035,  "or                                                               
otherwise approved  by the manufacturer  in concurrence  with the                                                               
State Fire Marshal's Office."                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. NIKALOLO stated:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     We feel we  need that change in culture.   For too long                                                                    
     our society  has rewarded victim  status to  people who                                                                    
     have fires occur  in their homes.   We risk firefighter                                                                    
     and family member's lives to  accidents and normal acts                                                                    
     of  carelessness.   We reward  those incidents  with an                                                                    
     outpouring  of  compassion, positive  affirmation,  and                                                                    
     financial  assistance.   Shouldn't  we reward  positive                                                                    
     proactive  outcome   rather  than   rewarding  negative                                                                    
     results?                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  NIKALOLO  said  HCR  20   would  bring  forth  a  voluntary,                                                               
positive,  individual approach  to  fire  safety within  Alaska's                                                               
homes and would  provide the means to reward  families who invest                                                               
to protect the security of  their homes by installing residential                                                               
fire sprinkler suppression systems.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:45:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. NIKALOLO related  a story wherein about 400  homes were built                                                               
in the North Slope Borough in  the early '90s, each home equipped                                                               
with sprinkler heads.  Since that  time, there have been a couple                                                               
instances  where residents  there have  been inebriated  and fell                                                               
asleep while smoking, and woke up  "wet but alive."  Mr. Nikalolo                                                               
said, "We look  at that program as being kind  of the keystone of                                                               
what we're trying to accomplish here."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:46:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN  asked  Mr.   Nikalolo  to  clarify  the                                                               
meaning of the language on page 2, lines 11-13, which read:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     BE  IT  RESOLVED  that  the  Alaska  State  Legislature                                                                  
     encourages  the state  fire  marshal  to formalize  the                                                                    
     model residential  fire sprinkler  system program  as a                                                                    
     statewide program;                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:46:40 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. NIKALOLO  prefaced his answer by  noting that he was  not [in                                                               
the  department]  in  '96  "when   this  was  first  put  forth."                                                               
Notwithstanding that,  he estimated that the  language means that                                                               
the legislature  would, outside of  bill form, give  its blessing                                                               
for the  state marshal to go  forward with the program.   He said                                                               
the program has no added cost  or labor requirements.  He said he                                                               
looks at the  language as "a nondescript  statement," because "it                                                               
doesn't direct  anything, as  far as program  is concerned."   He                                                               
concluded, "I  think it's just kind  of lending the name  and the                                                               
power of the  legislature in support of this."   In response to a                                                               
follow-up  question  from  Representative Johansen,  he  said  he                                                               
thinks the reason  the fire marshal would  like the legislature's                                                               
backing for a program that  costs nothing is because that support                                                               
will lend greater weight and increase public awareness.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:49:09 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ERNIE   MISEWICZ,  Fire   Marshal,  Fairbanks   Fire  Department,                                                               
testified in  support of HCR  20.   He indicated that  the public                                                               
views fires as  something that happens to other  people, and they                                                               
do not  give them much  thought.  Mr. Misewicz  said he is  a 34-                                                               
year veteran  of the  fire service  and has  seen first  hand the                                                               
devastation caused by fire, has  carried children and adults from                                                               
fires who were either injured or  killed, and has seen many lives                                                               
turned upside down and people displaced due to fire.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. MISEWICZ stated that people  believe that the fire department                                                               
is there to protect them and  "save the day," whereas in reality,                                                               
the fire  departments do not  have the  chance to win  the battle                                                               
with fire.  He said, "With  the rapid change in technology in the                                                               
way  that  we  build  and   furnish  our  home,  fire  now  grows                                                               
exponentially."   He  explained  that living  rooms  are full  of                                                               
large quantities  of flammable solids  that cause fires  to build                                                               
so  greatly.   He relayed,  "Fires now  are reaching  a point  of                                                               
flashover  within less  than two  minutes from  the start  of the                                                               
fire."   Mr. Misewicz  said great strides  have been  made toward                                                               
requiring early detection in homes,  but "we still lack the means                                                               
to  have that  early intervention;  the means  to suppress  these                                                               
fires."     He  said  fire  departments   strongly  believe  that                                                               
residential sprinklers are the answer.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. MISEWICZ  said builders have  said they would  put sprinklers                                                               
in residences only if there would  be an increase in the value of                                                               
the home.   He explained  that construction costs are  tight, and                                                               
if  the builder  cannot have  that  extra cost  of the  sprinkler                                                               
system  realized in  the  bottom  line, he/she  is  not going  to                                                               
install the sprinklers.  He  emphasized the need to encourage the                                                               
installation  of  sprinkler  systems  in homes,  as  well  as  in                                                               
commercial buildings throughout  the entire state.   He said this                                                               
can be  done in many ways:   by changing building  codes, through                                                               
breaks in  insurance rates, by  increasing the value  of property                                                               
in which  recognized sprinkler systems exist,  and by recognizing                                                               
the full  appraisal value  for the life  of that  property rather                                                               
than just  in the year  in which it was  installed.  He  said tax                                                               
breaks alone are  not enough to off-set the cost  of installing a                                                               
sprinkler system.   He mentioned  the possibility  of "low-income                                                               
loans."                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MISEWICZ  stated that the Fairbanks  Fire Department strongly                                                               
supports both the installation of  residential sprinklers and HCR
20 - the  proposed resolution being one of the  tools in the tool                                                               
box that will  help promote installation of sprinklers.   He said                                                               
there are  groups working  to make  changes to  residential code;                                                               
however,  "there's still  a lot  of  opposition out  there."   He                                                               
concluded:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     If we want  to impact the devastation  caused by fires,                                                                    
     especially in  the home,  we need  to start  by passing                                                                    
     the resolution,  and we  need to look  ... for  ways to                                                                    
     promote  and  encourage   residential  sprinklers,  and                                                                    
     maybe, at some point, requiring  them.  This way we can                                                                    
     go over there and save lives.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:53:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   GRUENBERG   mentioned    an   initiative   being                                                               
considered  in  Fairbanks  that would  increase  the  residential                                                               
property tax exemption, which would  result in a reduction in the                                                               
amount  of money  that is  available  to fund  firefighting.   He                                                               
asked,  "How would  that  sort  of thing  affect  the ability  of                                                               
people  to protect  their homes  with fire  suppression and  fire                                                               
fighting from the local fire department?"                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MISEWICZ  said  he  is not  familiar  with  the  initiative.                                                               
Notwithstanding that,  he said  early suppression  efforts reduce                                                               
the amount of time and effort  required of the fire department by                                                               
the time it arrives at the scene of a fire.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:55:16 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOLL  asked  what  the added  cost  would  be  to                                                               
install a  sprinkler system in  a 2,000-square-foot  residence if                                                               
residential sprinklers were made mandatory.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MISEWICZ said  he has  been  told that  retrofitting a  home                                                               
costs  approximately  $1.50  per square  foot,  while  installing                                                               
sprinklers in a new home costs  roughly $.90 per square foot.  He                                                               
noted that the  cost equates to the expense  of installing carpet                                                               
in a home.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:57:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   SEATON,  in   response   to   a  question   from                                                               
Representative  Gruenberg, said  he  is not  aware  of any  other                                                               
jurisdictions that  have mandatory requirements  [for residential                                                               
sprinkler systems].   He  reminded Representative  Gruenberg that                                                               
the  program  that the  resolution  would  support is  completely                                                               
voluntary.   He pointed out  the difference  between retrofitting                                                               
homes  completely  and attempting  to  cover  85 percent  of  the                                                               
ignition  sources in  homes,  the  latter of  which  is what  the                                                               
resolution is  "trying to do."   He  said when people  talk about                                                               
mandatory   requirements,  they   are  generally   talking  about                                                               
"through  building codes."   Much  of Alaska,  he said,  does not                                                               
have  enforced building  codes  that affect  houses.   Since  the                                                               
resolution  aims  at  encouraging  all   of  Alaska  to  opt  for                                                               
sprinkler protection, the resolution  is not attempting to effect                                                               
something through mandatory building codes.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:58:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR ROSES closed public testimony.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:59:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN asked if  the resolution is attempting to                                                               
convince  insurance companies  to consider  deductions and  offer                                                               
incentives.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:59:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  offered his  understanding that  there are                                                               
two insurance  companies in Alaska that  currently offer credits,                                                               
but  those  credits  are  based  on  the  national,  100  percent                                                               
coverage throughout the entire home.   He said HCR 20 attempts to                                                               
get  credits  offered  "for  the  protection  from  the  ignition                                                               
sources that  generally occur within  Alaska."  He referred  to a                                                               
handout  in   the  committee  packet  that   shows  three  charts                                                               
depicting  fire  statistics  in  Alaska.    One  page,  entitled,                                                               
"Applicable  Fire Cause  Comparison (2005-2007),"  shows that  in                                                               
2007, nine  out of  fourteen fire-related  deaths were  caused by                                                               
heat  sources  -   the  cause  of  the  five   other  deaths  was                                                               
undetermined.   He  indicated that  the resolution  could have  a                                                               
huge  effect on  Alaskans, giving  the incentive  and ability  to                                                               
homeowners to protect themselves and their families in the home.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:00:54 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN  indicated   that  the  resolution  does                                                               
nothing more  than make  a suggestion  to the  insurance company.                                                               
He asked if  there are other states in  which insurance companies                                                               
recognize partial coverage for "hot spot areas."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON responded  that  he is  not  aware of  any                                                               
other states  that do so.   He said most states  offer incentives                                                               
through building  codes, and  he reiterated  that there  are only                                                               
"some  centralized  municipalities  that  even  require  building                                                               
codes in Alaska."   He said the state fire  marshal has developed                                                               
the pilot  program and has indicated  it would be finalized.   He                                                               
said  insurance  companies'  charges are  supposed  to  represent                                                               
their "loss experience";  therefore, there would be  a reason for                                                               
the director of  insurance to be asking the  insurance company to                                                               
consider that.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN indicated that  some people had commented                                                               
on the  high rates of  plumbers, and  he pointed out  that simply                                                               
noting the cost  of the sprinklers does not include  the labor of                                                               
having them installed.   He observed that there is  a zero fiscal                                                               
note in the committee  packet.  He said he has  seen it happen in                                                               
the past  where the fiscal  note started  out at zero,  a program                                                               
was started,  and in ensuing  years requests were made  for money                                                               
to  keep the  program going.    He said  he is  curious why  [the                                                               
Department  of  Labor]  would  need   to  create  a  program  and                                                               
curriculum to  train licensed  plumbers to "cut  a pipe  and have                                                               
them put a 'T' in there."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON explained that a  way to keep costs down is                                                               
to have  a homeowner do  the job  him/herself and have  a plumber                                                               
certify that  "the [sprinkler]  heads are  there."   He indicated                                                               
that this  would give more  authenticity, which would  assure the                                                               
insurance companies that the job was  done correctly.  He said it                                                               
may  cost more  than  $100 to  do that  certification,  but in  a                                                               
"normal" house, three sprinkler heads might be sufficient.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:08:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN said the  bill sponsor has expressed that                                                               
the program  and curriculum exist;  therefore, he is  not certain                                                               
why  it  is  necessary  that   the  resolution  include  language                                                               
regarding the creation  of a program and curriculum.   He said he                                                               
would likely offer an amendment to delete that language.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:08:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
GREY MITCHELL,  Director, Labor Standards and  Safety, Department                                                               
of   Labor   and   Workforce    Development,   in   response   to                                                               
Representative Johansen, confirmed  that the training curriculums                                                               
do  already exist,  so the  department would  not be  required to                                                               
expend effort to  develop a curriculum.  Since  the resolution is                                                               
"advisory," he  said, "a  plumber can get  the training  or not."                                                               
Those with the training will  get that additional training status                                                               
noted on their already existing license.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MITCHELL,  in response  to  a  question from  Representative                                                               
Johansen,  explained   that  currently  a  plumber   can  install                                                               
sprinklers with  a standard plumbing  license.  He  explained, "I                                                               
think  what we're  talking about  here is  an advisory  where you                                                               
would have a  training program that's separate  from the standard                                                               
that a plumber could get, as  an addendum or an addition to their                                                               
plumbing  license,  for  sprinkler fitting,  specifically."    In                                                               
response to  a follow-up  question from  Representative Johansen,                                                               
he confirmed that  there are some training  programs that include                                                               
sprinkler  systems as  part of  their training  curriculum, while                                                               
others do not.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  expressed concern  that another  hoop is                                                               
being created for  a plumber to jump through to  prove he/she can                                                               
do a skill that is already part of his/her repertoire.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MITCHELL  responded,  "I  think   that  that's  an  accurate                                                               
statement."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:12:10 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG queried, "Nothing  in this resolution or                                                               
what  you're   contemplating  would  require  a   plumber  to  be                                                               
certified in  that manner to  make a certification that  the home                                                               
has sprinklers, correct?"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. MITCHELL confirmed that is correct.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG continued,  "So, it's  not accurate  to                                                               
say  that there  would  be this  requirement, is  it?   ...  This                                                               
encourages you  to develop the  program so it would  be available                                                               
to plumbers  who wanted it; not  that they'd be required  to have                                                               
it to make the certification.  Isn't that correct?"                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MITCHELL  answered  that's  correct;   it  would  not  be  a                                                               
requirement.  He explained, "I think  the issue is there would be                                                               
this question  of whether  or not the  plumber had  received that                                                               
training in order  to get whatever benefit  the insurance company                                                               
was providing.   So, although  it's not required, there  would be                                                               
some kind of a mechanism to  show that they had had that training                                                               
or not."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked,  "If the  homeowner  wished  to                                                               
prove the  installation of complying  sprinklers, would  that ...                                                               
plumber have  to have  had that  certification, or  could another                                                               
plumber make the  certification to the homeowner  to be presented                                                               
to the  insurance company?   Would they  have to go  through your                                                               
program?"                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. MITCHELL  replied that  he really  does not  know.   He said,                                                               
"All that the  resolution asks us to do is  to develop a training                                                               
curriculum.   The curriculum is  already established, so,  ... at                                                               
that point  ... we're done.   These  secondary steps are  kind of                                                               
'what-ifs,' and  since it is  all advisory, I don't  know exactly                                                               
how it's going to develop."                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  directed attention  to [page  2], lines                                                               
21-22, which  notes that  the Department  of Labor  and Workforce                                                               
Development  would  work  with  the   state  fire  marshal.    He                                                               
suggested that the department would  also work with other groups,                                                               
such as unions.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MITCHELL  agreed that  certainly  the  department would  get                                                               
industry  support  and input  on  the  training curriculum.    In                                                               
response to  a follow-up question from  Representative Gruenberg,                                                               
he  confirmed that  the  other  input would  come  not only  from                                                               
unions, but also from industry groups.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:14:29 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  the  sponsor  of  the  proposed                                                               
resolution how he  would feel about including  "and other groups"                                                               
after "state fire marshal".                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  responded that  that would be  fine, since                                                               
the  whole idea  is  to  create a  synergy.    He suggested  that                                                               
instead  of  just  "train  licensed  plumbers",  the  words  "and                                                               
certify" could  be added.   He  explained that  the issue  is not                                                               
about  how  to  solder pipes  and  put  in  a  'T' -  it's  about                                                               
determining whether the  sprinkler head is adequate  to cover the                                                               
area.   He offered further details.   He stated that  if the fire                                                               
marshal recognizes  that preventing  fires in  the aforementioned                                                               
limited areas is of the greatest  benefit, than many lives can be                                                               
saved in Alaska.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:17:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL  said she  can see  how the  resolution could                                                               
have  a  ripple  effect,  and she  expressed  concern  that  [the                                                               
resolution]  is  "much  more  than  meets the  eye."    She  said                                                               
different  homes  are  made  out   of  different  materials,  for                                                               
example.   There is a lot  more to the resolution  than "a simple                                                               
intent to prevent fires."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:18:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN asked Mr. Mitchell  if he has the ability                                                               
currently  to  exclude plumbers  who  do  not have  the  required                                                               
"sticker."                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MITCHELL answered  that the  department's current  authority                                                               
lies in  statute and requires  anyone working on a  potable water                                                               
system to hold a plumber's  "certificate of fitness" license.  He                                                               
said, "These  systems in  the residential arena  are going  to be                                                               
part of that potable  water system.  So, in order  to work on the                                                               
potable water  system, they would  have to have  that certificate                                                               
of fitness."   An  exception he  noted would be  if a  plumber is                                                               
working in a community with less  than 2,500 people.  In response                                                               
to a  follow-up question from  Representative Johansen,  he said,                                                               
"I guess I'm  kind of having trouble making the  tie-in with this                                                               
bill, because  I don't  think that  the bill  has anything  to do                                                               
with that  requirement."   He said if  someone is  doing plumbing                                                               
work that is  subject to the Uniform Plumbing Code  because it is                                                               
part  of the  potable water  system, thus  currently requiring  a                                                               
certificate of fitness, that person  does not need a sticker that                                                               
says he/she has  had any training in sprinkler  fitting or "those                                                               
kinds of things."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:20:39 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
VICE CHAIR  ROSES observed, "When you  say they have to  have the                                                               
certification; that's only if you're going  to get a license as a                                                               
certified  plumber in  the  state.   If  I'm  a  homeowner -  I'm                                                               
building my own home - I  don't have to have a certification, and                                                               
there is no regulation by  the Department of Labor [and Workforce                                                               
Development] that governs that.  ...  I do have to get a building                                                               
inspection  in  my municipality,  but  I  don't  have to  have  a                                                               
certification.  So,  you're only talking about  for licensure, is                                                               
that correct?"                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. MITCHELL responded that's correct.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHANSEN  restated   his  previously   expressed                                                               
concern that  although the bill  has no  weight in law,  when the                                                               
legislature pushes  in one direction,  the department may  end up                                                               
coming back  with requests for  expenditures.  He said  he agrees                                                               
with the intent  of the bill; however, he has  a problem with the                                                               
aforementioned language on page 2, lines 21-24.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:22:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  if  lay people  could  also  be                                                               
trained by the department.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. MITCHELL  said he does  not see  any reason why  the training                                                               
could not be offered to anyone who wished it.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON  said he had included  licensed plumbers in                                                               
the language  of the resolution  because in most  places building                                                               
inspectors  are  not required.    He  said plumbers  who  install                                                               
sprinkler systems  currently are already  licensed to do  so, but                                                               
"this would  allow the other  plumbers that haven't  been trained                                                               
in sprinkler systems to get that certification."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  stated that he fully  supports the bill                                                               
and would not offer an  amendment unless the sponsor approved it.                                                               
He asked  if offering certification  to homeowners who  wished to                                                               
install  sprinklers simply  for  the purpose  of upgrading  their                                                               
homes would be contrary to the purpose of HCR 20.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON responded no.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG said  he  would like  to encourage  the                                                               
average person  [to upgrade his/her home  by installing sprinkler                                                               
systems].                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:26:03 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN asked  Mr.  Mitchell  if the  department                                                               
could handle allowing  anyone to come before it and  say, "Hey, I                                                               
want to  do this," and  if there would  be zero fiscal  impact if                                                               
that should happen.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. MITCHELL responded yes.  He  explained the reason is that the                                                               
curriculums already exist.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:26:45 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL said she  foresees that residential sprinkler                                                               
systems  could become  mandatory  at some  point  in the  future,                                                               
which   would  have   tremendous  impact   on  homebuilding   and                                                               
insurance.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 9:27:49 AM to 9:30:21 AM.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:30:41 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG,  in response to Vice-Chair  Roses, said                                                               
the House State Affairs Standing  Committee is the last committee                                                               
of referral  for HCR  20 before  the resolution  is heard  by the                                                               
House Rules Standing Committee.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:33:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG   moved  Conceptual  Amendment   1,  as                                                               
follows:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 22, following fire marshal:                                                                                   
          Delete ","                                                                                                            
          Insert "and other groups"                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 23:                                                                                                           
          Delete "create a program and a curriculum to"                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 23, between "train" and "licensed":                                                                           
          Insert "and certify"                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 2, line 23, between "plumbers" and "install":                                                                         
          Insert "and others"                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL [objected for discussion purposes].                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON,  in   response  to  Representative  Doll,                                                               
confirmed  that  the  reason  for deleting  the  reference  to  a                                                               
program and  curriculum is that those  are already in place.   He                                                               
noted that  since Representative  Gruenberg had  moved Conceptual                                                               
Amendment  1, with  "and other  groups" added  after "state  fire                                                               
marshal", the addition of "and  others" after "licensed plumbers"                                                               
is not  needed.   He said  "others" would  be certified,  but the                                                               
state would not be getting into a training program for them.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  asked  Representative  Seaton  how  he                                                               
would like the language of Conceptual Amendment 1 changed.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON suggested that the language should read:                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
      working with the state fire marshal and other groups                                                                      
      to train and certify licensed plumbers to install or                                                                      
     certify residential fire sprinkler systems.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  explained the purpose  behind including                                                               
"and others".                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SEATON said  he does  not have  any objection  to                                                               
leaving  that language  in  the amendment;  however,  he said  he                                                               
wants the legislative intent clear  that "we're not talking about                                                               
a workforce development program" where training take place.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:36:15 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG   stated  for  the  record   that  upon                                                               
adoption of  Conceptual Amendment  1, page  2, lines  21-24 would                                                               
read as follows:                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     FURTHER  RESOLVED  that  the Alaska  State  Legislature                                                                  
     encourages  the  Department   of  Labor  and  Workforce                                                                    
     Development, working  with the  state fire  marshal and                                                                    
     other groups,  to train  and certify  licensed plumbers                                                                    
     and  others  to   install  residential  fire  sprinkler                                                                    
     systems.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said,  "I don't know if  I'm a homeowner                                                               
if you're  going to, quote, 'certify'  me, but I think  the broad                                                               
sense is that the training is available."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOLL  said  she  just  received  a  note  from  a                                                               
constituent who  is a  member of a  sprinkler fitters'  union and                                                               
"thinks  this is  diluting it."   She  asked if  the sponsor  has                                                               
spoken with  members of the union  and whether "this is  going to                                                               
be a potential problem."                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:37:58 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that he  thinks the concern is that                                                               
the amendment  would somehow  affect commercial  sprinkler system                                                               
installation.  He emphasized that it would not.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:38:37 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG said  he  thinks  the language  clearly                                                               
specifies   that   the   sprinklers  affected   are   residential                                                               
sprinklers.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:39:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOLL  withdrew her  objection.    There being  no                                                               
further objection, Conceptual Amendment 1 was adopted.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:39:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN moved  to report HCR 20,  as amended, out                                                               
of   committee   with    individual   recommendations   and   the                                                               
accompanying  fiscal  notes.   There  being  no objection,  CSHCR
20(STA)  was reported  out of  the House  State Affairs  Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                

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