Legislature(1997 - 1998)

04/30/1998 01:30 PM House RES

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
HCR 13 - MANAGEMENT OF WILDLIFE RESOURCES                                      
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN announced the next order of business was HCR 13,              
Relating to management of Alaska's wildlife resources.                         
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there is a proposed committee                      
substitute, version 0-LS1771\E, Utermohle, 4/22/98, and an                     
amendment.  He entertained a motion to adopt the proposed committee            
substitute.                                                                    
                                                                               
Number 299                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to             
adopt the proposed committee substitute for HCR 13, version 0-                 
LS1771\E, Utermohle, 4/22/98.                                                  
                                                                               
Number 300                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA asked whether the Department of Law is                 
available.                                                                     
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated the department was invited.                            
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON stated the department decided not to show up and            
reminded the committee members that a motion is on the table.                  
                                                                               
Number 365                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA objected to the motion.  A roll call vote              
was taken.  Representatives Barnes, Dyson, Masek, Williams, Hudson             
and Ogan voted in favor of the motion.  Representative Nicholia                
voted against the motion.  Representatives Green and Joule were                
absent.  The motion carried.                                                   
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN explained when Alaska became a state it was given             
the right to navigable waters based on the equal footing doctrine              
specifically addressed in the Alaska Statehood Act.  Navigable                 
waters were transferred to the states in 1953 under the Submerged              
Lands Act.  On page 2, line 25 of the resolution, the citation to              
the court case was not included because it has not been recorded               
yet.  It is that recent of a case.  It is interesting to note that             
Justice Sandra Day O'Connor in writing the opinion of the United               
States Supreme Court for United States v. Alaska (___U.S.___(1997))            
said, "Ownership of submerged lands -- which carries with it the               
power to control ... fishing, and other public uses of water -- is             
an essential attribute of sovereignty ..."  He wants to establish              
via the resolution to the Secretary of Interior that the federal               
government does not have the right to manage fisheries in navigable            
waters.                                                                        
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to adopt Amendment 1.  It reads as              
follows:                                                                       
                                                                               
     TO:  CSHCR 13(RES)                                                        
                                                                               
          Page 3, line 3                                                       
                                                                               
               Insert    "WHEREAS is it the position of                        
                         the Alaska State Legislature                          
                         that ANILCA did not                                   
                         specifically preempt state                            
                         management nor grant specific                         
                         authority to the Secretaries of                       
                         Agriculture and Interior to                           
                         preempt state management of                           
                         navigable waters and submerged                        
                         lands."                                               
                                                                               
          Page 3, line 9                                                       
                                                                               
               Insert    "FURTHER RESOLVED the Alaska                          
                         State Legislature respectfully                        
                         requests the U.S. Congress to                         
                         promptly clarify that ANILCA                          
                         did not preempt nor diminish                          
                         state sovereign authorities                           
                         over its own lands, waters and                        
                         resources."                                           
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA objected.                                              
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BILL WILLIAMS asked how would the Katie John case               
affect the resolution.  Didn't it go all the way to the Supreme                
Court of the United States? he asked.                                          
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied the Katie John case went all the way to               
the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.  The appeal to the Supreme                 
Court of the United States was denied.                                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS asked:  What is the resolution trying to               
do?  Is it trying to show that the Supreme Court is wrong?  The                
Supreme Court didn't want to hear the Katie John case because there            
wasn't enough justification.  The attorneys indicated that if the              
Supreme Court didn't want to hear the Venetie case then it is the              
supreme law of the land.  The Supreme Court has already indicated              
that it doesn't want to hear something similar to what the                     
resolution is asking.  What are we doing? he asked.                            
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied the resolution asks Congress to clarify               
that the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (ANILCA)              
did not preempt a state's sovereign authority over its lands and               
waters.  Alaska was clearly given the right to manage its own                  
navigable waters when it became a state.                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied Alaska was also given the right on             
the 90-10 split.  What happened to that? he asked.  It did the same            
thing that is being discussed now.  The federal government can come            
in anytime it wants and do anything it wants.  Just like the state             
government can go onto state property and do and say anything it               
wants.  He doesn't see the rationale for the resolution.  He would             
like to hear from the Department of Law or the legislature's                   
attorneys.  "We always go about saying that we're all not                      
attorneys, but we try to act like it ... some of us," he declared.             
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES stated she doesn't believe a word that the               
attorney general says.  Just because the Supreme Court did not hear            
the Katie John case and the 90-10 split doesn't mean that it would             
not hear them at another time under a different set of facts.  In              
addition, Katie John would only be law under the Ninth Circuit                 
Court of Appeals.  It would not be law anywhere else in the                    
country.                                                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated, according to what he has been told,            
if the Supreme Court didn't want to hear the Venetie case, it would            
be considered the law of the land.  Therefore, is Katie John the               
law now? he asked.                                                             
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES replied, "No it is not."                                 
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he thinks it is.  "I don't think we            
can't just pick and choose anything that we want, Mr. Chairman."               
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated he has heard Representative Williams say               
many times that he doesn't want the federal government to manage               
the state's resources.  The resolution is asking Congress to                   
clarify that ANILCA did not intend for a takeover of fish and game,            
especially navigable waters.  He paraphrased the provisions in the             
resolution.                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS stated he could argue any of the cases                 
mentioned in the resolution.  Katie John was taken to the Supreme              
Court, but not heard, so it doesn't mean anything, according to                
Representative Barnes.  Therefore, why wasn't Katie John put in the            
resolution to give it more credence? he asked.                                 
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN stated Representative Williams can make a motion              
for an amendment at anytime.                                                   
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he believes that Katie John is the             
law of the land because it went to the Supreme Court.                          
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied it wasn't decided by the Supreme Court.               
The conversation is way off track.  The amendment asks that ANILCA             
did not specifically preempt Alaska's sovereign authority over its             
lands.                                                                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE WILLIAMS replied he is not out of order.  Katie John            
specifically talks about submerged lands.                                      
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he didn't say that he was out of order.               
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BEVERLY MASEK noted Representative Barnes stated                
clearly that Katie John has not really been addressed or resolved              
by the courts.  She supports the amendment.  The language is                   
important to add to the resolution.                                            
                                                                               
Number 503                                                                     
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN HUDSON wondered how the dialogue has moved away from               
the original resolution, by Representative Al Vezey, of the                    
management of Alaska's wildlife resources to navigable waters.  He             
doesn't feel comfortable with it and doesn't believe there are the             
votes to move it from the committee.  He wants to hear from the                
original sponsor of the resolution.  He also wants to know where               
the changes took place.  Was this something that Co-Chairman Ogan              
did independently? he asked.                                                   
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he asked the original sponsor and he did              
not object to changing the resolution into what it is now.  In                 
light of the shortness of the session, he took advantage of using              
it as the vehicle for a resolution.                                            
                                                                               
Number 526                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated regardless of how it is put Katie               
John is the law, which is why the state is in its predicament.                 
There is a deadline in front of the state.  There is clear evidence            
that it is the law.                                                            
                                                                               
Number 540                                                                     
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied the majority opinion of the court begged              
for a legislative solution.  The resolution is simply asking                   
Congress to clarify that ANILCA did not preempt a state's sovereign            
authority.  There are reams of case law in the Supreme Court of the            
United States that back up the assertion.  He believes, if the                 
state can get its day in court, that the Supreme Court would rule              
in favor of it.  Justice Sandra Day O'Connor isn't going to reverse            
her opinion that submerged lands carry the power to control                    
fishing, he declared.                                                          
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted at this time there isn't a quorum to take               
further action on the bill.                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE NICHOLIA stated she thinks that Congress has                    
clarified its position on a number of times.  According to Alaska's            
congressional delegation, the Katie John case is in front of the               
state and it needs to resolve the issue before the deadline.  She              
does not see Congress coming forth and clarifying the issue.                   
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN replied he hears what Representative Nicholia is              
saying.                                                                        
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called for a brief at ease.                                   
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the meeting back to order and adjourned the            
meeting to the call of the chair.                                              
                                                                               
TAPE 98-54, SIDE A                                                             
Number 000                                                                     
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN called the House Resources Standing Committee                 
meeting back to order at 5:01 p.m.  Members present at the call to             
order were Representatives Ogan, Barnes, Dyson, Green and Masek.               
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN noted that there is a motion to adopt Amendment 1             
on the table.                                                                  
                                                                               
Number 010                                                                     
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN made a motion to amend Amendment 1 to include the             
language ", resources therein" after the word "waters" to the                  
amended portion on Page 3, line 3.  There being no objection, it               
was so adopted.                                                                
                                                                               
CO-CHAIRMAN OGAN asked whether there is any objection to the motion            
to adopt Amendment 1, as amended.  There being no objection, it was            
so adopted.                                                                    
                                                                               
Number 024                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE BARNES made a motion and asked unanimous consent to             
move the proposed committee substitute for HCR 13, version 0-                  
LS177\E, Utermohle, 4/22/98, as amended, from the committee with               
individual recommendations and the attached zero fiscal note.                  
There being no objection, CSHCR 13(RES) was so moved from the House            
Resources Standing Committee.                                                  

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