Legislature(2013 - 2014)BARNES 124
02/03/2014 01:00 PM House RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB163 | |
| HB268 | |
| HB244 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HB 163 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 268 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | HB 244 | TELECONFERENCED | |
HB 268-BIG BULL MOOSE DERBIES
1:53:06 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER announced that the next order of business is
HOUSE BILL NO. 268, "An Act relating to big bull moose derbies."
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON moved to adopt the proposed committee
substitute (CS) for HB 268, Version 28-LS0851\N, Martin,
1/31/14, as the working document. There being no objection,
Version N was before the committee.
1:53:42 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TAMMIE WILSON, Alaska State Legislature, Juneau,
Alaska, introduced HB 268 by reading from the following sponsor
statement [original punctuation provided]:
House Bill 268 would allow the Tanana Valley Sportsmen
Association to raise funds for their organization and
the University of Fairbanks Nanooks Rifle team
equally. The big bull moose derbies would be operated
much like other contests already allowed under
statute. This will take place during the annual moose
season, by individuals that have acquired all the
proper documentation already implemented by the State
of Alaska to stay within the legal boundaries of the
moose season. Participants must purchase a derby
ticket prior to the open day of the season. The winner
would be determined based on the bull antlers; the
widest spread legally taken and would receive a
predetermined portion of the net proceeds from the
fund raiser. Anyone who enters a bull would,
regardless of the antler spread, be entered into a
drawing for prizes.
The Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association (TVSA) is a
nonprofit organization that hosts training and
completion events for the nationally ranked University
of Alaska Nanooks Rifle Team as well as the local high
schools. It is home to a multitude of community and
school events; NCAA tournaments, biathlon training &
competition, gun safety and personal protection
classes are among the many.
House Bill 268 would allow the raising of funds to
further the use of the TVSA club house and support the
efforts of the nationally ranked UAF Nanooks Rifle
team who has produced Olympic level competitors.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON pointed out that Version N adds [the
Snow Town Ice Classic] to the bill, which would be administered
by the Advocates for Victims of Violence, Inc. (AVV). The state
has various kinds of derbies, such as salmon and halibut
derbies, she explained, and communities must go through statute
to be able to conduct these derbies. The capital budget is
going down and she has always told her group that she would be
behind any ideas it has for fundraising, so that is what brought
this forward.
1:56:05 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON inquired whether this big bull moose
contest has been going on since before statehood.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON responded no, it would be new. No one
has done it at all, so this is what they are asking to do.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON directed attention to page 3, lines 18-20,
Version N, which state: "... an activity may not be licensed
under this chapter unless it existed in the state in
substantially the same form and was conducted in substantially
the same manner before January 1, 1959." He asked whether the
proposed addition of bull moose derbies is being put into the
right section of the regulations, given it did not exist before.
However, he then noted, perhaps big bull moose derbies fall
under the exception provision on page 3, line 14, Version N, and
it is therefore okay.
CO-CHAIR SADDLER offered his agreement with Representative
Seaton's interpretation, saying bill drafters understand this
sort of thing.
1:57:46 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TARR, regarding the mechanism, surmised a person
would still need to apply for a permit through the traditional
way, so this proposal would not impact the overall number of
moose harvested.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON concurred, saying a person who is going
hunting anyway could purchase a ticket in the hopes of winning
some money or a prize. No more permits would be given because
of this proposed derby.
CO-CHAIR SADDLER added he thinks sports people and hunters tend
to be big hearted and want to support civic activities, and the
Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association is a good activity.
1:58:42 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI observed the sponsor statement mentions
the Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association and the University of
Alaska Nanooks Rifle Team, but the proposed bill does not state
that they are the specific permittee. He queried as to what
happens if someone other than these two organizations would like
to be a permittee.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON replied that absolutely anyone can take
advantage of it; someone wanting to have just a moose derby
rather than a big bull moose derby could do so. She said her
bill is exclusively to help these groups and that is how they
anticipate using it, but somebody in another part of the state
could have a different type if it wanted to.
1:59:48 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER observed that Version N specifically and
repeatedly states "big" bull moose derby, but in the existing
language there is no "big" king salmon. He inquired about the
necessity of the modifier "big".
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON answered it is the name that the rifle
team liked and how they are going to promote it. She brought
the name forward because at the time she did not realize that
anybody could use it. She said she would be willing to accept a
friendly amendment that takes out "big" or makes it just be a
moose derby.
2:00:55 PM
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER offered his support for the bill, but
suggested "ice classics" in the title be tightened. The state
has many ice classics, he said, and anything could be inserted
into the bill that could affect any one of these other
functioning ice classics rather than having it be as the bill
intends to be, which is specific authority for "the Snow Town
Ice Classic to be operated and administered by the Advocates for
Victims of Violence, Inc." He said this change could be made
any time before the bill goes to the House floor.
2:02:56 PM
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI asked what the Snow Town Ice Classic is
and what the organization is.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON deferred to Co-Chair Feige.
CO-CHAIR FEIGE first offered his agreement with Representative
Hawker regarding the title. He then noted that he is now a co-
sponsor of the bill and thanked Representative T. Wilson for
adding the Snow Town Ice Classic language. He said this classic
is in Valdez, and Advocates for Victims of Violence, Inc. is a
local charity in Valdez that is looking to broaden its revenue
base to other sources besides the State of Alaska.
The committee took a brief at-ease.
2:05:49 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER announced he will be holding over HB 268 to
provide an opportunity for further work regarding Representative
Hawker's concern.
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI inquired if any research has been done
on whether incentivizing a derby or classic will result in more
hunters or more moose being taken in an attempt to make money
off the situation.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON responded she has not done any surveys.
She said her understanding of hunters is that they love to hunt
and right now all of the permits are always taken up. This may
make it more competitive or more people may try to hunt, she
allowed, but the number of permits will still remain the same.
REPRESENTATIVE KAWASAKI asked how this will work for federal
subsistence areas and areas where there is a tier.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON understood that whatever a person must
do now to be able to legally hunt for a moose will still have to
be done under this bill. All HB 268 would do is allow a hunter
to participate in this under a legal permit that has been done
by the Alaska Department of Fish & Game.
2:07:59 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said he hears this bill as being one that
requires people to go hunt. In classics, people are guessing
what the size of the biggest bull moose is this year and it is a
game of chance. He inquired whether the sponsor's intention is
to allow either of these to go forward so that people can guess
what is the biggest moose taken in a particular unit.
REPRESENTATIVE T. WILSON understood the organizer of these
events would have to go through the Department of Revenue and
follow the department's guidelines for how to set up the event.
She said allowing people to guess sizes would provide even more
revenue to the organizer because then it would not be limited to
just the hunters. She deferred to the Department of Revenue for
a further answer.
2:09:57 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER asked whether there is a technical distinction
between what is a classic and what is a derby.
ANNA KIM, Chief of Revenue Options, Tax Division, Department of
Revenue (DOR), replied she cannot answer that question fully but
said there are actual definitions for games of chance versus
games of skill when the department is reviewing things. In
further response, she said she will get back to the committee
regarding those definitions.
CO-CHAIR SADDLER inquired whether a derby is taking a chance
while a classic is what someone else does.
MS. KIM replied she thinks the co-chair's assumption is correct.
2:10:55 PM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON offered his understanding that a game of
skill does not necessarily require permits to the gaming aspect
as much as games of chance. He said he has trouble calling the
hunting of a moose a game of chance because much skill is
involved in getting a moose. He said he does not want to merge
the two. If it is drawing a permit to have a chance to get a
moose, then he could see chance and a qualifier for being a
gaming permit situation. He therefore asked whether this bill
is actually necessary.
MS. KIM responded there is some past history that she has not
been briefed on as far as this particular activity related to
skill or chance. She said her understanding is that for this to
move forward it would have to be chance.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON inquired whether DOR's approval is needed
to split the pot with the biggest moose because it is not chance
and therefore [this bill] is unnecessary.
MS. KIM replied she does not know the answer and will get back
to the committee in this regard.
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON said the ice classic is not an issue as
he understands that. Guessing the length of the antlers is a
different issue, but to just to go out and take the biggest
moose is, to him, a skill and not a chance.
2:12:56 PM
REPRESENTATIVE TARR observed the list of activities allowed to
be done for fundraising is growing. She asked how much the
workload will be increased for the administrative support of
these additional activities.
MS. KIM answered activities added in the past have, so far, been
absorbed by the existing staff in DOR's gaming group.
2:14:17 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER opened public testimony on HB 268.
AL BARRETTE said he supported HB 268 and any time organizations
have an opportunity to raise money, particularly collegiate
organizations, it lessens the burden on the state budget.
Regarding skilled hunting versus chance hunting, he said it
takes skill to hunt an animal, but it is by chance that a hunter
gets the largest moose for that derby. He therefore urged
committee members to support the bill.
2:16:13 PM
GEORGE PIERCE said he opposed HB 268 because it is a scam to
take the bull moose because moose populations are down all
across the state. A derby will likely bring nonresidents to
Alaska to kill moose that residents cannot even harvest in many
locations. For example, king salmon on the Kenai Peninsula are
targeted by one special interest group, and now there are no
more big king salmon. Now there is another special interest
group that wants to take Alaska's resources so it can make money
through a fundraiser. These are his resources, he said, and he
does not want them outsourced and sold for money because
somebody wants to make some money. He urged members to step up
for Alaskans and turn down HB 268.
2:18:12 PM
DAN JORDAN, Head Rifle Coach, University of Alaska, Fairbanks,
noted he took over the rifle program about nine years ago. Over
the years, ways have been looked at to cut costs as well as to
increase revenue to take the burden off the university. One
idea was to bring forth this big bull derby after looking at the
success of the halibut derbies, salmon derbies, and ice
classics. It would formalize what has already been going on
informally in Fairbanks, he said. It was decided to bring in
the Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association because it is involved
with youth as well as animal management. The hunters are
already out there, he said, and he does not believe this derby
will increase the number of hunters. It would provide a chance
to bring in the people who are already harvesting moose and
provide them with recognition while providing the organizations
a chance to make some money that would benefit youth, college
shooters, and the communities. The more funds from outside of
the university the more things that can be done to support these
activities.
REPRESENTATIVE TARR inquired whether Mr. Jordan would support a
policy that limits derby participation to Alaska residents only.
MR. JORDAN answered he would have to think about that.
2:20:37 PM
GRANT LEWIS, President, Tanana Valley Sportsmen's Association
(TVSA), related the roots of his organization began in 1911 in
Fairbanks and it was incorporated as a club in 1937. In the
last 20 years, the focus of TVSA has been on youth firearms
education, with the group having its own youth shooting club and
training about 75 kids a year in safe handling of firearms.
Additionally, TVSA works with high schools, junior high schools,
and charter schools, as well as helping with the university.
Last year, the TVSA junior club started a senior division and it
won the national championship in its class. [The derby] would
be conducted under TVSA's existing gaming permit; thus, TVSA is
obviously in favor of the bill. It would allow TVSA to get
operating money that it would not have to raise elsewhere or
have to ask the state for. The TVSA always likes to support the
national championship University of Alaska rifle team.
2:22:34 PM
MICHAEL TINKER stated he is a life member of TVSA and has had a
long affiliation with the university's rifle team, which is
working to win its eleventh national championship. During the
25 years he was associated with the Fairbanks Advisory Committee
and the Board of Game, the research he saw indicated that
hunters in the field always seek the biggest moose or caribou,
although hunters concerned with just filling their freezer will
take the very first one seen. Thus, this is not promoting
anything that will cause a big shift in hunting numbers. It
would be nice if this could subscribe hunters to begin moose
hunting, but that is unlikely to happen. If, for example, the
fee is $10 and 1,500 tickets are sold and a substantial prize is
given away, TVSA could still give the university's program about
$7,000-$10,000, which would be significant in terms of equipment
and support for the team. He said TVSA thinks this proposal
will work and grow and that is why it is asking the committee to
consider this proposal. His organization wants to get people to
buy a ticket and anticipates weekly winners by drawing
throughout the approximately four-week long season. An absolute
scoring mechanism has not yet been decided upon, but TVSA will
be trying to accommodate those who, by state regulation, are
required to underscore the antlers. The TVSA will have a couple
of check stations in Fairbanks to which the antlers can be
brought for scoring eligibility in the contest.
2:26:06 PM
ROWENA PALOMAR, Executive Director, Advocates for Victims of
Violence, Inc. (AVV), explained that AVV is one of twenty
programs that provide services to victims of domestic violence
and sexual assault. For fiscal year 2013 through 2014, AVV's
basic operating costs have risen over $20,000 for increased
transportation for victims in villages, and for shelter,
utility, energy, and insurance costs. At the current state
funding level, AVV would need an additional $25,000 to continue
to meet victims' basic needs. Unfortunately, the current
proposed increment in state funding of about $285,000 will be
divided by 20 programs in the state, and AVV will need to make
up the difference or be forced to cut services. By being
eligible to receive funding from the Snow Town Ice Classic, AVV
can use this money as emergency funding to meet the projected
shortfall rather than making the difficult decision of what
services to cut and not turning victims away.
CO-CHAIR FEIGE lauded Ms. Palomar for doing an excellent job in
representing AVV.
2:28:02 PM
DARRYL VERFAILLIE, Director, Parks, Recreation, and Cultural
Services, City of Valdez Parks and Recreation, said he supported
HB 268 and is speaking in partnership with AVV to promote the
addition of the ice classic in Valdez. The city was looking for
an event that would provide both residents and visitors with
additional winter entertainment in an area where winter goes on
and on and on. It is hoped that the event will help promote the
city's annual week-long Frosty Fever Winter Celebration, help
promote winter tourism, and help strengthen partnerships between
the City of Valdez and Advocates for Victims of Violence. He
emphasized the City of Valdez would receive no revenues from the
event. The city would simply coordinate the event, assist with
event advertising, and provide monitoring of the site on behalf
of AVV, thereby maximizing nonprofit revenues while bolstering
Parks and Recreation's winter offerings.
2:29:42 PM
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON, addressing the Department of Revenue,
queried whether [the moose derby] would be a game of chance.
JOE KOSS, Tax Auditor, Gaming Group, Tax Division, Department of
Revenue (DOR), confirmed it does, adding that the full title of
the statute, AS 05.15, is Games of Chance and Contests of Skill.
While hunting is an exercise in skill, there is still an element
of chance because an animal might not be seen or [the shot]
might miss. The proposed activity definitely comes under the
department's purview and under the statute, he said.
REPRESENTATIVE HAWKER recalled a debate in which it was
maintained that poker is such a game of skill that it ought to
be exempt from these statutes. This is absurd, he said, but it
illustrates the point that Mr. Koss is bringing up in regard to
the relationship between games of skill and chance and the
intent of this sort of activity.
2:31:34 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER requested a definition of derby versus classic.
MR. KOSS replied that classics tend to be based on guessing
games, such as guessing when the ice will go out or how many
fish pass a certain point. Derbies are based on catching the
largest fish, and in this instance it would be the largest
antlers, so derby definitely fits the proposed activity. In
further response, he confirmed there is no real distinction
between the two terms as far as distinct definitions.
2:32:35 PM
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON corrected his earlier question, observing
that page 4, lines 11-12, define a big bull moose derby as
harvesting a bull moose based on the size or spread of the
antlers. Thus, he said, it eliminates classic, which is
guessing which ones would be available. He questioned whether
more will be gained by a few hunters than by people guessing the
size of the largest bull caught this year, but said that is the
choice being made in this bill.
2:33:20 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER drew attention to page 2, line 29, Version N,
which states that DOR may issue a permit to a qualified
organization. He asked what criteria an organization must meet
and what the permit stipulations are.
MR. KOSS answered that the statute defines a qualifying
organization as one that is not for profit, has at least 25
Alaska residents as members, and is at least three years old.
2:34:13 PM
CO-CHAIR SADDLER kept public testimony open and held over
HB 268.