Legislature(2007 - 2008)BELTZ 211
02/26/2008 09:00 AM Senate STATE AFFAIRS
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB260 | |
| SB181 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HB 260 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | SB 181 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SJR 12 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
HB 260-STATE OFFICERS COMPENSATION COMMISSION
CHAIR MCGUIRE announced the consideration of HB 260. [Before the
committee was CSHB 260(STA).]
9:07:09 AM
KARL KURTZ, Researcher, National Conference of State
Legislatures (NCSL), Washington D.C., said he does not take a
position on HB 260 but will give perspective on legislator
salaries and compensation commissions throughout the country. It
is not easy to estimate salaries for state legislators because
there are per diem payments and other payments to get around
constitutional limits in salaries. There is also the political
issue of legislators raising their own salaries. He tries to
figure out what the IRS requires taxes on, so in his estimates
he includes salary, unvouchered expense payments, and per diem.
He excludes leadership and committee chair compensation.
9:10:12 AM
SENATOR FRENCH asked what an unvouchered expense is.
MR. KURTZ said some states offer office expenses that don't
require submission of a voucher so the money can be used as
income. He then referred to a map of the states showing the
estimates of what legislators are paid. There are seven states
that pay legislators over $60,000 per year. Another seven pays
$45,000 to $60,000. Alaska falls into the middle with between
$30,000 and $45,000. Eleven states pay between $15,000 and
$30,000. There are nine states that pay less than $15,000. New
Hampshire legislators get $100 per year. The ranges are broad.
SENATOR BUNDE asked if he included the regular salary of Alaska
legislators plus the long-term per diem.
MR. KURTZ said Alaska's director of Legislative Affairs
estimates an average of $33,000 for Alaska legislators.
9:13:29 AM
SENATOR BUNDE said that number probably includes legislators who
claim no long-term per diem and others who claim it nearly every
day. He asked if that per diem is considered as salary.
MR. KURTZ said yes, and that emphasizes the fact that all the
numbers are estimated averages. The next map divides states into
three levels of "professionalization." Some states have full-
time legislators with compensation to allow them not to work
outside the office. They also have a large staff, and there are
ten states in that category. There are 16 classic citizen
legislatures including New Hampshire and most of the Rocky
Mountain States, and they are very part time, have low pay, and
have very few staff. Almost half of the states are a hybrid
between the two. Alaska is in that category.
9:16:51 AM
MR. KURTZ referred to a list of compensation. The average is
close to $40,000 in the hybrid category, and Alaska is close to
that. The highest paid category averages $75,000. There have
been substantial pay increases in each category, but by
correcting for inflation, Congress has had cuts and the states
have stayed about the same. Alaska has had pay cuts since 1972
based on inflation. In most states the legislature is
responsible for setting their own salaries. Most states do not
have a salary commission. His map is color-coded, and the darker
the color the more the legislature has the responsibility for
its salary. The salmon-colored states have commissions that make
salary recommendations, and then the legislature votes on them.
The third category (pink) shows states that have a commission
that can act, but the legislature, governor, or voters have the
right to reject the decisions of the commission. He understands
that HB 260 is similar.
9:21:26 AM
MR. KURTZ said the fourth category of states ties legislator
salaries to some type of index, like an economic index. The
salaries are thus automatic. Washington State has a commission
that sets salaries every two years, and the only way to change
it is with a voter initiative of the people.
SENATOR STEVENS said there have been enormous ethical issues,
lawsuits, and prison terms in Alaska. He asked if a lack of
ethics is tied to unfair compensation.
MR. KURTZ said that would be difficult to prove. Congress is the
only body that bans all outside income. That is the principle
that allows them to pay enough, and Congress has ethical
problems. He doesn't think a correlation can be drawn between
corruption and pay.
9:24:58 AM
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked if California bans outside income.
MR. KURTZ said no, but it may have a ban on honoraria. A farmer
or attorney, for example, can still earn their incomes.
9:25:46 AM
SENATOR BUNDE moved Amendment 1, labeled 25-LS0659\K.3, Bullard,
2/25/08, as follows:
Page 2, line 1, following "place of":
Insert "permanent"
Page 2, line 4, following "allowance":
Insert ", except that those whose place of permanent
residence is within 50 miles of a location in which the
legislature is convened in regular or special session are
not entitled to a per diem allowance for that session"
Page 2, lines 6 - 7:
Delete "applicable to all legislators"
Insert "[APPLICABLE TO ALL LEGISLATORS]"
Page 2, line 10, following "council.":
Insert "The policy may not provide for the
reimbursement of moving expenses or per diem for
legislators whose place of residence is within 50 miles of
a location in which the legislature is convened in regular
or special session for that session."
Page 5, following line 10:
Insert a new subsection to read:
"(c) A recommendation of the commission may not have
the effect of allowing a legislator whose place of
permanent residence is within 50 miles of a location in
which the legislature is convened in regular or special
session to receive compensation in the form of a per diem
allowance or reimbursement for moving expenses for that
session."
CHAIR MCGUIRE objected for discussion purposes.
SENATOR BUNDE said he believes in truth-in-labeling, and
compensation that is taxed should not be called per diem.
Amendment 1 asks the commission to look at that. The staff at
Legislative Legal Services told him that "we actually cannot do
that, even though leg council is a creature of the legislature,
we can't tell them, apparently, what to do when it comes to
deciding what is salary and what is per diem." He said he
narrowed the amendment to focus on the intent of per diem, which
is when someone must move to a temporary residence. Currently,
people who live in Juneau are paid per diem. It is likely an
attempt to equalize salaries, but it is not accurately
described. The amendment is an attempt to "suggest that if you
live within 50 miles of where the legislature is convened, and
I'm will to discuss the distance … [you] ought not to be subject
to a per diem allowance." A 50-mile commute can be done daily.
CHAIR MCGUIRE said the amendment is before the committee and the
letter [of intent] will be discussed separately.
9:29:18 AM
SENATOR FRENCH said this battle has come up before, and the
topic is exactly what the commission should do. There may be
some places near Juneau cut off from the road system. He
appreciates treating everyone fairly, but this is a topic for
the commission, "not us here on the fly."
SENATOR GREEN said she agrees.
SENATOR BUNDE said he appreciates that view, and "I think it
makes my point: we ought to be telling the commission they ought
to study this and that amendment would do that."
A roll call vote was taken. Senators McGuire and Bunde voted in
favor of Amendment 1, and Senators Green, French, and Stevens
voted against it. Amendment 1 failed on a vote of 2 to 3.
9:31:13 AM
CHAIR MCGUIRE said the letter of intent is before the committee
and she asked Senator Bunde if he wants to offer it.
SENATOR BUNDE offered Conceptual Amendment 2. The commission
should have a broad scope, but because of the problem of the
legislative council not being, apparently, under the direction
of the legislature, he wants the commission to review long-term
per diem to see if it is more accurately defined as salary.
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked why Senator Bunde thinks the commission
won't have that authority.
9:32:05 AM
SENATOR BUNDE said without this letter the commission may choose
to ignore the issue.
SENATOR GREEN asked if Senator Bunde said legislative legal told
him that long-term per diem is salary.
SENATOR BUNDE said no. They said long-term per diem versus
salary is a creature of the legislative council, "and we can't
tell them to change that." The council has chosen the term, and
he thinks it is a subterfuge to say that legislators don't have
a big salary, but he was told that IRS sees it as salary. He
said he is just suggesting the commission review the accuracy of
those terms.
CHAIR MCGUIRE said it is a directive, and she feels that the
committee has made it clear on the record that the commission
will look at all compensation. There may be legitimate per diem
expenses like gas or other things to do legislative work. Her
concern is telling the commission it must redefine it.
9:34:30 AM
SENATOR BUNDE said the word "encourage" can replace "shall".
CHAIR MCGUIRE asked why this would be highlighted above any
other subject.
SENATOR BUNDE noted that any accountant will say what we call
long-term per diem is salary. It is accuracy in labeling. When
the term was put in, it was a subterfuge to hide salaries.
The committee took an at-ease from 9:35:59 AM to 9:37:46 AM.
SENATOR BUNDE said he can count, and he withdrew Conceptual
Amendment 2.
SENATOR MCGUIRE asked the record to reflect that good statements
have been made.
SENATOR FRENCH moved to report HB 260 from committee with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s). There
being no objection, CSHB 260(STA) passed out of committee.
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