Legislature(2023 - 2024)BARNES 124

02/02/2024 01:00 PM House RESOURCES

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01:02:23 PM Start
01:03:31 PM HB222
01:53:51 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
*+ HB 222 PERMANENT FUND APPROPRIATIONS/INVESTMENTS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
           HB 222-PERMANENT FUND/AIDEA FUND INVESTMENTS                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
1:03:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY  announced that the  only order of business  would be                                                               
HOUSE  BILL NO.  222, "An  Act relating  to the  Alaska permanent                                                               
fund and the income and investments  of the fund; relating to the                                                               
permanent fund dividend; and providing for an effective date."                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:03:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JESSE SUMNER,  Alaska State  Legislature, as  the                                                               
prime  sponsor, presented  HB 222.    He spoke  from the  sponsor                                                               
statement  [provided  in the  committee  packet],  which read  as                                                               
follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     HB 222 addresses critical aspects related to the                                                                           
     Alaska Permanent Fund, its income, investments, and                                                                        
     the distribution of permanent fund dividends.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The proposed amendments to AS 37.13.120 seek to direct                                                                     
     the investment of fund assets towards achieving a 25                                                                       
     percent  ownership  share  of a  natural  gas  pipeline                                                                    
     originating  on the  North  Slope.  This investment  is                                                                    
     intended to yield long-term benefits  for the state and                                                                    
     its residents.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     The  amendments   to  AS   37.13.145  aim   to  provide                                                                    
     flexibility  in  appropriating   funds  for  dividends,                                                                    
     ensuring fair distribution  to eligible individuals and                                                                    
     allowing for adjustments based on available income.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Additionally, the  bill includes provisions  related to                                                                    
     the mental  health trust fund  and sets  conditions for                                                                    
     its  effective  date  based  on  the  construction  and                                                                    
     completion  of a  natural gas  pipeline originating  on                                                                    
     the North Slope.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Overall, this bill aims to  optimize the management and                                                                    
     utilization  of  the  Alaska  Permanent  Fund  for  the                                                                    
     benefit of the state and its citizens.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRSENTATIVE SUMNER  added that  HB 222  would allow  a dividend                                                               
statute that  could be followed  without endangering  the "owners                                                               
reserve  account" while  investing in  that pipeline.   The  bill                                                               
would then provide for an  ongoing statutory dividend that can be                                                               
complied with.   Given the gas situation  in Southcentral Alaska,                                                               
it is  especially pressing [the  legislature] consider this.   As                                                               
provided  in the  effective date  and conditionals  language, the                                                               
bill  would  do absolutely  nothing  if  the gas  pipeline  isn't                                                               
built.    When companies  engage  in  large capital  projects  or                                                               
expansion  of  business  it  is  common for  them  to  reduce  or                                                               
eliminate their  dividends to shareholders  for a period  so they                                                               
can grow and then return larger  dividends in the future.  In the                                                               
same  way,  the permanent  fund  can  be invested  and  dividends                                                               
returned to Alaskans  in the form of secure cheap  gas as well as                                                               
cash dividends from the investment.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:06:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRSENTATIVE SUMNER spoke from  the sectional analysis [provided                                                               
in  the  committee  packet]   titled  "HB222  Sectional  Analysis                                                               
Version  A,"   which  read   as  follows   [original  punctuation                                                               
provided]:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Section 1:  This section  adds a  new subsection  to AS                                                                    
     37.13.120,   directing   the  Alaska   Permanent   Fund                                                                    
     Corporation  to  invest fund  assets  to  achieve a  25                                                                    
     percent  ownership  share  of a  natural  gas  pipeline                                                                    
     originating on the North Slope.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Section  2:  This  section amends  AS  37.13.145(b)  to                                                                    
     allow the legislature to  appropriate from the earnings                                                                    
     reserve  account   to  the  dividend  fund   an  amount                                                                    
     necessary to distribute  a dividend of up  to $1,000 to                                                                    
     each eligible individual.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Section 3: This section  further amends AS 37.13.145(b)                                                                    
     to allow  the legislature to appropriate  50 percent of                                                                    
     the income  available for distribution to  the dividend                                                                    
     fund, instead of a fixed amount.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section 4:  Amends AS 37.13.145(c)  to provide  for the                                                                    
     appropriation from the earnings  reserve account to the                                                                    
     principal of the fund in  order to offset the effect of                                                                    
     inflation on the fund's principal.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Section  5:  Amends  AS 37.13.145(d)  to  specify  that                                                                    
     income  earned from  specific  sources  related to  the                                                                    
     Alaska  Permanent  Fund  shall be  deposited  into  the                                                                    
     Alaska capital income fund.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     Section  6:  Amends  AS  37.13.300(b)  to  outline  the                                                                    
     duties  of   the  Alaska  Permanent   Fund  Corporation                                                                    
     regarding the mental health trust fund.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Section 7:  Amends AS 37.13.300(c) to  specify that net                                                                    
     income from  the mental  health trust  fund may  not be                                                                    
     included  in the  computation of  the amount  available                                                                    
     for   distribution  or   appropriation  under   certain                                                                    
     sections.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Section  8:  Amends  AS  43.23.025(a)  to  outline  the                                                                    
     process  for determining  the value  of each  permanent                                                                    
     fund dividend for a given year.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Sections  9-11:  These   sections  outline  conditional                                                                    
     effects based  on the construction and  completion of a                                                                    
     natural gas pipeline originating on the North Slope.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Section 12: Specifies the effective date of the Act.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:09:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Cody  Rice,  House  Majority  Staff,  Alaska  State  Legislature,                                                               
provided  a  PowerPoint  presentation titled  "Gas  Pipeline  (HB
222),"  dated   2/2/24.    He   related  that   his  professional                                                               
background  includes many  years in  oil and  gas, including  the                                                               
Division  of  Oil  and Gas  [Department  of  Natural  Resources],                                                               
Department of Revenue Tax Division,  Wood Mackenzie, and UBS.  He                                                               
noted  that a  potential gas  pipeline has  been discussed  since                                                               
about 1970,  with almost every iteration  discussing the question                                                               
of whether there would be State of Alaska equity participation.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RICE began  his  presentation with  slide  2, "Why  Invest,"                                                               
which read  as follows [original  punctuation provided  with some                                                               
formatting changes]:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
       Rationale for equity investment in the Alaska gas                                                                      
     pipeline                                                                                                                 
        • Today, proponents of state involvement cite three                                                                     
          main reasons for the state to participate in                                                                          
          ownership or financing of an Alaska Gas Pipeline                                                                      
          project:                                                                                                              
             • It would be a good investment with a healthy                                                                     
               rate of return and minimal risk.                                                                                 
             • Alaska should control its own financial                                                                          
               destiny and development of its resources.                                                                        
             • State    involvement   would    enhance   the                                                                    
               project's feasibilitythat is, the pipeline                                                                       
               would stand a better  chance of getting built                                                                    
               sooner if the state was a financial partner.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE added that the state would  have a seat at the table and                                                               
a say  in the  discussions and  the commercial  negotiations that                                                               
are made,  including potentially  accelerating a project  as well                                                               
as the straight dollars that the project might make.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:11:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE spoke  from slide 3, "State Equity  Participation in the                                                               
Alaska   Gas  Pipeline,"   which   read   as  follows   [original                                                               
punctuation provided with some formatting changes]:                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Wood Mackenzie Cost Estimates                                                                                            
                                                                                                                              
                                                  1                                                                             
     • Wood Mackenzie Cost Estimates ($2019 Real):                                                                              
        • $9.2 Bn  Gas Treatment Plant (GTP)                                                                                    
        • $12.7 Bn  Gas Pipeline                                                                                                
        • $16.8 Bn  Liquefaction/LNG                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     • Wood Mackenzie Cost Estimates ($2024 CPI [Consumer                                                                       
        Price Index] - adjusted):                                                                                               
        • $11.2 Bn  GTP                                                                                                         
        • $15.5 Bn  Pipeline                                                                                                    
        • $20.5 Bn  Liquefaction                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     • Assuming 70 [percent] debt funding, a 25 [percent]                                                                       
       equity stake in the $15.5 Bn pipeline would cost ~                                                                       
      $1.2 Bn in equity and ~ $235 MM [million]/yr in debt                                                                      
                                          2                                                                                     
        service at 7.75 [percent] interest                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     1: Alaska LNG Competitiveness Analysis 2022                                                                              
     2: 30  [percent] equity  in $15.5  Bn pipelines  = $4.7                                                                    
     Bn;  25  [percent]   share  of  $4.7  Bn   =  $1.2  Bn;                                                                    
     Outstanding debt on the State  25 [percent] share would                                                                    
     be ~ $2.7 Bn                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE allowed that the CPI is  only one way of looking at what                                                               
today's costs  might be and  that the Alaska  Gasline Development                                                               
Corporation (AGDC)  likely has its  view on how these  costs have                                                               
or haven't  accelerated.   He said the  bill as  proposed directs                                                               
the  permanent fund  to take  a 25  percent equity  stake in  the                                                               
pipeline and  that most  scenarios look to  some variation  of 70                                                               
percent debt funding.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:13:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE  displayed slide 4,  "Returns on Equity,"  and addressed                                                               
whether this  would be a  reasonable investment for the  state to                                                               
make.  The  compound annual growth rate (CAGR)  for the permanent                                                               
fund  from its  inception in  1978 to  2023 is  9.24 percent,  he                                                               
specified.    The  Federal Energy  Regulatory  Commission  (FERC)                                                               
regulated return on  equity (ROE) for major  gas pipelines ranges                                                               
from 10-14  percent, with the  bias being towards the  higher end                                                               
for  larger more  risky projects,  which the  Alaska LNG  project                                                               
would be.   The ROE from a 25 percent  investment in the pipeline                                                               
portion  of  this  project  could reasonably  be  assumed  to  be                                                               
relatively in the ballpark of  what the permanent fund has earned                                                               
on average over the last 30 plus years.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
1:15:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE moved to slide  5, "Portfolio Management," and discussed                                                               
how this  would affect the  permanent fund asset allocation.   He                                                               
explained that the allowable investments  are outlined in statute                                                               
[AS 37.13.120(c)],  which specifies that Alaskan  investments are                                                               
preferred over other investments  assuming they have similar risk                                                               
and return  profile [to other non-Alaskan  opportunities].  While                                                               
this project could have a  similar return profile, he stated, the                                                               
risk is  a whole other  question.  Currently,  Alaska constitutes                                                               
only $540 million,  less that 1 percent, of  the entire permanent                                                               
fund [portfolio]; a 25 percent  equity in the Alaska gas pipeline                                                               
would move the Alaska portion of  the permanent fund to just over                                                               
2 percent  of the  overall portfolio.   This  proposed investment                                                               
could  also  reasonably  be  included  in  two  other  investment                                                               
categories:   1) private equity [with  a target of 16  percent of                                                               
the  APFC  portfolio],  which  currently   is  at  $14.6  Bn  [19                                                               
percent];  and  2)  private income  and  infrastructure  [with  a                                                               
target of  9 percent of  the APFC portfolio], which  currently is                                                               
at $6.7  Bn [8.6 percent].   In both cases this  would not wildly                                                               
swamp the current  investments in those investment  classes.  Mr.                                                               
Rice  surmised that  the  permanent  fund professional  investors                                                               
would have thoughts on this.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:17:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RICE concluded  his PowerPoint  presentation  with slide  6,                                                               
"Summary," which  read as follows [original  punctuation provided                                                               
with some formatting changes]:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     State equity  participation in a gas  pipeline has been                                                                    
     studied  for  >40  years by  numerous  consultants  and                                                                    
     investment banks                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     25 [percent]  share of the  pipeline would  likely cost                                                                    
     the State  ~ $1.2 Bn  in cash and ongoing  debt service                                                                    
     of ~ $235 MM/yr at 7.75 [percent] interest                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Regulated   gas   pipeline   returns  on   equity   are                                                                    
     comparable  or   higher  (10      14   [percent])  than                                                                    
     historical average returns from APFC (9.2 [percent])                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     A 1  [percent] increase  in returns  on $1  Bn invested                                                                    
     over 30 years is ~  +$5.4 Bn undiscounted and ~ +$350MM                                                                    
     NPV                                                                                                                        
        10                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     [Fiscal  Year  2025]   [Constitutional  Budget  Reserve                                                                    
     (CBR)] balance ~ $2.4Bn                                                                                                    
     [Fiscal  Year  2025]  [Earning Reserve  Account  (ERA)]                                                                    
     balance ~ $7.2Bn                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:18:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY asked  whether  the  diameter of  the  pipe for  the                                                               
Alaska LNG project would be 44 inches.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SUMNER offered  his  belief  that the  envisioned                                                               
diameter would be 42 inches.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY asked whether Mr. Rice  is talking about a pipe of 42                                                               
inches diameter.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE replied  that the assumptions he presented  are based on                                                               
the Wood  Mackenzie study that  was produced  for AGDC, so  it is                                                               
based on AGDC's  assumptions.  The pipe scenarios  that have been                                                               
discussed over the years have  varied, he added, but generally 42                                                               
inches is a reasonable estimate.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:19:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY said  the  sale price  of  the gas  would  be a  key                                                               
variable in this.  He inquired  about the assumption used for the                                                               
sale price of the gas.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE  responded that he has  assumed the price of  gas that's                                                               
estimated  in   the  Wood  Mackenzie  study   because  it  seemed                                                               
reasonable to him.  It's  lower than the current weighted average                                                               
cost  of gas  in  Cook  Inlet or  the  prevailing  value that  is                                                               
published on the  Department of Revenue Tax  Division's web site,                                                               
which is  based on the  average of  the contracts with  the major                                                               
utilities  which he  believes  is around  $8  per metric  million                                                               
British thermal units  (MM BTU).  He offered his  belief that the                                                               
cost  estimated  in  this study  is  $5.70-$6.70  delivered  into                                                               
Southcentral.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
1:20:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY stated  that under  the Alaska  LNG project,  a good                                                               
portion of the gas would be  exported, and gas would be available                                                               
for local  consumption [from  offtakes along  the pipeline].   He                                                               
asked whether the pipeline would be terminated in Nikiski.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SUMNER   answered  that,  as  proposed,   HB  222                                                               
references  the definition  of gas  pipeline under  AS 31.25.390,                                                               
which  states  "means the  main  natural  gas pipeline  from  the                                                               
outlet flange  of the gas treatment  plant on the North  Slope to                                                               
the inlet  flange of the  liquefied natural gas plant  located in                                                               
the Southcentral  region of the  state, which shall  have offtake                                                               
points along the pipeline for deliveries of gas in the state".                                                                  
He said  he assumes that  would be in  Nikiski unless there  is a                                                               
change in the permits.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:21:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY  inquired about  the  total  cost in  [CPI-adjusted]                                                               
dollars [for the GTP, the pipeline, and the liquefaction].                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE  answered that  it's a tough  question because  it's not                                                               
actually representative of  the entire cost of  the pipeline, but                                                               
the [total] cost displayed here is about $46-$47 billion.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY  stated that that  is the  last number he  heard from                                                               
the Alaska LNG [project].                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE  responded that  that does not  include owners'  cost or                                                               
potential contingency for  cost overruns, both of which  can be a                                                               
substantial portion  of this cost.   Responding further  to Chair                                                               
McKay,  he  confirmed   that  he  is  basing   his  economics  on                                                               
approximately $46 billion.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:23:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ARMSTRONG  asked whether the Wood  Mackenzie model                                                               
that  predicts  a  doubling  of   Alaska's  LNG  export  by  2027                                                               
considers  how the  prices  of  LNG might  change  with all  that                                                               
natural gas coming online.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE confirmed that it does.   He related that Wood Mackenzie                                                               
has  a  team which  produces  a  complicated supply-demand  model                                                               
based  on LNG  projects  globally  that the  team  expects to  go                                                               
forward and has a forward forecast for pricing.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:23:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ARMSTRONG   asked  why  a  pipeline   hasn't  yet                                                               
happened  after so  many  decades of  discussion  and what  makes                                                               
right now and this scenario different.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE replied  that he thinks various projects  have fallen by                                                               
the  wayside  for different  reasons,  but  that the  overarching                                                               
challenge to the  project has been lack  of commercial agreement,                                                               
the  economics,  and the  unique  size,  scale,  and scope  of  a                                                               
project like this.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER  pointed out  that until very  recently the                                                               
project  didn't have  all permits  nor authorization  to blowdown                                                               
gas on the North Slope.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY added  that there  have  been many  reasons for  why                                                               
things didn't  happen and that  there have been  different scopes                                                               
for this project, one which went  from the North Slope to Chicago                                                               
and one that was worked on in the 1990s by Yukon Pacific.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
1:25:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SADDLER recalled Mr.  Rice's statement that HB 222                                                               
would do nothing unless the  pipeline happened.  He observed that                                                               
Section 1 of HB 222 would  take effect in July 2024 regardless of                                                               
any other decisions  or activity, and that Section  1 directs the                                                               
fund  to invest  fund assets  to achieve  a 25  percent ownership                                                               
share.   He asked whether he  is correct that that  would have an                                                               
effect  even if  there  is no  construction  or certification  as                                                               
existing.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER confirmed  that that is correct  in that it                                                               
would  have   that  direction  for  the   Alaska  Permanent  Fund                                                               
Corporation.   If there is  not a project  to invest in  then the                                                               
APFC simply  cannot invest,  so it  would have  no effect  if the                                                               
project doesn't happen.   It does have the effect  of saying that                                                               
[the state]  has committed  or is willing  to commit  these funds                                                               
for  the pipeline.   He  noted  that the  contingent language  in                                                               
Section  9 is  a repealer  if it  doesn't happen  in the  next 10                                                               
years, and that Sections 10  and 11 have the conditional language                                                               
for if construction begins and when construction ends.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SADDLER observed that  the language [in Section 1]                                                               
states  that  "the   board  shall  invest"  in   "a  natural  gas                                                               
pipeline".  He noted that  there are several different [pipeline]                                                               
iterations and proposals and therefore  suggested the language be                                                               
tightened up for what the board is exactly directed to do.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
1:27:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEARS  [in reference to  slide 3] stated  that CPI                                                               
is  nothing compared  to what  has happened  in the  construction                                                               
industry in the  last few years, such as supply  challenges.  She                                                               
said the slide  doesn't have enough data on what  the costs would                                                               
be now for  the complete project.  She further  stated that other                                                               
data is needed,  such as the state's cashflow  over time depicted                                                               
in graphs and charts.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE replied  that this would be an equity  investment over a                                                               
relatively short  period before construction or  at construction.                                                               
That equity investment would be  around $1.2 billion depending on                                                               
actual  inflation  for these  specific  categories.   While  this                                                               
project is incredibly complex, of  global scale, and requires the                                                               
generation of  custom engineering estimates, CPI  is a reasonable                                                               
place to  start as  a rough estimate.   Regarding  ongoing costs,                                                               
the $235  million a year  in debt  service would be  a consistent                                                               
cost  over the  life of  that loan,  the same  as how  a mortgage                                                               
would remain consistent.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:30:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY asked  whether it  is relevant  here that  a current                                                               
legislature cannot bind a future legislature on spending money.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SUMNER answered  that the  Alaska Permanent  Fund                                                               
Corporation  can  be   directed  by  statute.     As  a  separate                                                               
instrumentality  of   the  state,  APFC  will   follow  statutory                                                               
direction unless  direction is changed.   So [passage of  HB 222]                                                               
would not  be binding a  future legislature, it would  be binding                                                               
the APFC.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY surmised that if  this legislature passed HB 222, the                                                               
  th                                                                                                                            
34 Alaska State Legislature could repeal it.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
                                        th                                                                                      
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER concurred.  The 34   Legislature could also                                                               
ignore  the statutory  provisions that  are being  introduced for                                                               
the dividend, he opined, which has happened over recent years.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY  stated he  isn't trying  to find  reasons to  not do                                                               
this, rather he is testing how it would work.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE noted that the  permanent fund investment allocation for                                                               
allowable  investments  has  been   changed  by  the  legislature                                                               
multiple times since inception.   In its original incarnation the                                                               
APFC was  only allowed  to invest in  fixed income  assets, which                                                               
are relatively safe but relatively low earning.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
1:32:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAUSCHER  asked  whether a  legal  [opinion]  was                                                               
prepared for the bill and could it be shared with the committee.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SUMNER  confirmed  that  a  legal  [opinion]  was                                                               
prepared.  He said he would provide it to the committee.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY surmised  that  the legal  opinion  said the  bill's                                                               
provisions were okay.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
1:33:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SADDLER  said his recollection of  history is that                                                               
after debates  about whether to  invest in Alaska projects  or to                                                               
seek the greatest return based  on the prudent investor rule, the                                                               
decision was made  to not invest in Alaska and  to instead create                                                               
the Alaska  Industrial Development  and Export  Authority (AIDEA)                                                               
to create jobs  and finance projects to help  the Alaska economy.                                                               
He requested  the sponsor to  address how that decision  might be                                                               
impacted by HB 222.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SUMNER  responded  that   Alaska  has  built  few                                                               
structures since  building the oil  pipeline.  While  the "banana                                                               
republic resource export trap" has  generated lots of revenue for                                                               
the state, he  opined, Alaska's economy needs  to be diversified.                                                               
He  said he  personally is  more interested  in the  in-state gas                                                               
aspect  of the  gas  pipeline  to provide  a  cheap and  reliable                                                               
source of  energy that  will help  the state  move up  the value-                                                               
added chain and have other  manufacturing potential.  Just taking                                                               
a share  of the resource  and applying it to  government spending                                                               
and to  dividends, he further  opined, will consume  that surplus                                                               
without making those  investments and will be  regretted down the                                                               
line.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE  pointed out that  current statutory  authority provides                                                               
preference to Alaska investments  assuming they have similar risk                                                               
and  return profiles.    So, he  continued,  the legislature  has                                                               
previously decided that that should be a priority.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:37:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY asked  how much [equity investment]  for this project                                                               
would come from the private sector.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SUMNER  replied that  75  percent  of the  equity                                                               
investment would  be from the  private sector.  About  70 percent                                                               
debt financing is  envisioned and of the remaining  30 percent of                                                               
the financing,  75 percent would  be from the private  sector and                                                               
25 percent  would be  from the  APFC.  This  would still  have to                                                               
pencil out in  somebody's book in the private sector  for this to                                                               
happen, he advised.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:38:05 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY  concluded  that permanent  fund  money  would  help                                                               
support the Alaska LNG project.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RICE answered  that  that is  a fair  summary.   Roughly  70                                                               
percent of the approximately $15.5  billion would be debt funded;                                                               
the state's  obligation would be  for [one-fourth] of  the equity                                                               
and [one-fourth] of the debt.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER  added that  the APFC  isn't being  told it                                                               
can't invest in the rest of  the project and isn't being directed                                                               
to invest  in the  entirety of  the project.   The APFC  is being                                                               
directed to invest in just the natural gas pipeline portion.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:39:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY asked  whether the  APFC  has ever  invested in  any                                                               
significant projects in  Alaska before and, if  so, whether there                                                               
is an example of that working out well.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  RICE replied  that currently  the Alaska  permanent fund  is                                                               
invested in  Alaska at about  $540 million.   He said  the Alaska                                                               
permanent  fund  is  invested   through  various  private  equity                                                               
vehicles  in several  LNG projects  and  gas pipelines  globally,                                                               
specifically through  "subsidiaries of  Blackstone."   He offered                                                               
his belief  that the  Alaska permanent  fund is  invested through                                                               
various private equity  funds in "the Pluto  Project by Woodside"                                                               
and is a  substantial investor in Spain's  natural gas pipelines.                                                               
So, he continued, the Alaska  permanent fund has experience and a                                                               
record  of  investing  in   public  infrastructure  projects  and                                                               
specifically natural gas projects.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY proffered that it isn't  a bizarre idea that the APFC                                                               
should consider investing in [the Alaska LNG project].                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
1:40:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE said  it seems that every  iteration of the                                                               
pipeline over  the past 45 years  has had a 25  percent ownership                                                               
for the state.   He asked whether he is  correct in understanding                                                               
that HB 222 would give  the Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation the                                                               
"ability" to invest in [a natural gas pipeline].                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER  responded that he  would describe it  as a                                                               
"requirement" in  HB 222 to  invest in [a natural  gas pipeline],                                                               
so it would be a fund source  for this 25 percent of the project.                                                               
More  certainty on  funding  a $1.2  billion  project would  help                                                               
advance  the  project, he  opined,  as  compared  to it  being  a                                                               
question of whether the state might invest up to 25 percent.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:41:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE asked  what is  being done  currently with                                                               
the  gas that  is produced  along with  the oil  drilling on  the                                                               
North  Slope.   He maintained  that  it is  stranded gas  because                                                               
there is no way to transport it from the North Slope                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE answered that describing  North Slope gas as stranded is                                                               
accurate.   He  said the  last time  he checked,  approximately 6                                                               
billion  cubic feet  (BCF) of  gas per  day was  being reinjected                                                               
into  the Prudhoe  Bay reservoir  for  pressure maintenance,  and                                                               
according to  Representative Sumner  it is  a higher  amount than                                                               
that.   One challenge is  that a gas  offtake must be  allowed by                                                               
the Alaska  Oil and Gas  Conservation Commission (AOGCC);  Rule 9                                                               
must be  modified to have a  major gas sale.   Functionally there                                                               
is more  gas than would be  needed for this pipeline  for the 30-                                                               
year  project,  but it  will  take  many reservoir  engineers  to                                                               
understand how that can be drawn  down to ensure that the benefit                                                               
of both the oil and the gas is maximized.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  MCKAY noted  that the  AOGCC has  approved offtake  of gas                                                               
from the  North Slope and most  of the gas would  come from Point                                                               
Thomson and Prudhoe Bay.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
1:43:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MEARS  stated she  appreciates the concept  of the                                                               
state  investing within  itself, and  that she  realizes what  is                                                               
trying to  be done  with HB 222  and other bills  is to  prove to                                                               
investors that  Alaska and  its resources  are a  good investment                                                               
risk.   She asked  whether the  APFC would  currently be  able to                                                               
invest in this project without HB 222.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER offered his belief that the answer is yes.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY invited Mr. Deven Mitchell to answer the question.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
1:44:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DEVEN  MITCHELL,   Executive  Director,  Alaska   Permanent  Fund                                                               
Corporation  (APFC), Department  of  Revenue,  answered that  the                                                               
APFC has looked  at HB 222 and many questions  were raised as far                                                               
as the  actual anticipated impact  on the permanent fund  and the                                                               
size and scope of what the  envisioned project might be, of which                                                               
some questions were  answered today.  Regarding  whether the APFC                                                               
would currently be  able to invest in a project  like this today,                                                               
he said the  APFC has some statutory guidance as  far as prudence                                                               
standards,  so  the  APFC has  diversification  requirements  and                                                               
concentration  requirements that  would  preclude  it from  being                                                               
such  a  significant  investor  in any  project.    Other  issues                                                               
associated with  the Alaska natural  gas project would  also play                                                               
into  that, such  as  where  the project  is  from a  development                                                               
perspective and  the levels of  risk that might  currently exist.                                                               
He said APFC's  chief investment officer is  available to provide                                                               
the  committee with  greater guidance  on  the APFC's  investment                                                               
making process when looking at  its current oil and gas exposures                                                               
and the limits  APFC looks at from  a diversification perspective                                                               
and participating in those projects.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
1:47:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY  asked whether Mr.  Mitchell sees a problem  with the                                                               
legislature passing a  law that the governor  signs directing the                                                               
APFC to invest in an Alaska gas pipeline.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. MITCHELL  replied that if the  APFC is directed by  state law                                                               
to invest  in a certain investment,  that is what the  APFC would                                                               
do and that is what it does right now.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY asked whether the  sponsor has thought about bonds to                                                               
also help boost this project.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER  responded that he is  simply providing one                                                               
mechanism here  and welcomes  debate on  it.   The source  of the                                                               
funds could be many different things.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE added that bonds of  various types have been studied and                                                               
discussed and looked at by various consultants for this purpose.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
1:48:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY said  he would like to have a  guidance vote from the                                                               
people  on whether  they  favor the  state  doing something  like                                                               
this.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE replied  that when creating a 175-page  document on this                                                               
some time  ago, the  Department of  Revenue (DOR)  surveyed folks                                                               
within  the   industry  and  general   citizens.     The  general                                                               
population  was  unanimously  in  favor of  state  direct  equity                                                               
participation  in   the  gas  pipeline   and  the   industry  was                                                               
unanimously opposed.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY said it is interesting  to hear that the industry was                                                               
unanimously opposed because he keeps  hearing that industry wants                                                               
the state to show skin in the game.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE responded that industry  was unanimously opposed at that                                                               
point  in  time.   However,  he  continued,  he cannot  speak  to                                                               
today's  potential   investors  because   he  hasn't   had  those                                                               
conversations and opinions have evolved over time.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
1:50:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENATIVE  BAKER  requested  clarification on  why  the  bill                                                               
proposes to not utilize the Alaska Mental Health Trust.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SUMNER  answered that HB 222  precludes the Alaska                                                               
Mental Health  Trust because there are  settlements involved, but                                                               
it would be  a policy decision of whether that  is wanted.  There                                                               
may  be some  small  difficulty with  the  Alaska Permanent  Fund                                                               
Corporation in segregating  those assets out, he  advised, but he                                                               
thinks that is a surmountable administrative issue.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
1:51:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. RICE, in response to  Representative Mears, related that FERC                                                               
stands for  Federal Energy Regulatory  Commission.  He  said FERC                                                               
has 100  percent jurisdiction over  natural gas pipelines  in the                                                               
U.S. under the [1938] Natural Gas  Act (NGA).  While this project                                                               
is  relatively unique  and more  complicated [than  other natural                                                               
gas pipelines], he  advised, those would be the peers  in the way                                                               
that the rate of return is determined and regulated by FERC.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
1:52:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR MCKAY  thanked the sponsor  and testifiers for  bring forth                                                               
HB  222.    He  said  he personally  appreciates  any  ideas  and                                                               
proposals  to help  move Alaska's  resource development  industry                                                               
forward and to help monetize stranded assets.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
[HB 222 was held over.]                                                                                                         

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB222 Sponsor Statement.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB222 Sectional Analysis Ver. A.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB 222 Fiscal Note 1 - DCCED.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB 222 Fiscal Note 2 - DOR.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB 222 Presentation 2.2.24.pptx HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB 222 - 2002 State Participation Plan.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB 222 - 1978 State Participation Plan.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222
HB 222 - 2022 Wood Mackenzie Analysis.pdf HRES 2/2/2024 1:00:00 PM
HB 222