Legislature(2023 - 2024)DAVIS 106

01/24/2024 06:00 PM House WAYS & MEANS

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06:00:19 PM Start
06:01:12 PM HB190
06:50:56 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+= HB 190 ALASKA SUNSET COMMISSION TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+= HB 194 CONSENSUS ESTIMATING CONFERENCES; BUDGET TELECONFERENCED
<Bill Hearing Canceled>
                HB 190-ALASKA SUNSET COMMISSION                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
6:01:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER announced  that the only order  of business would                                                               
be  HOUSE BILL  NO. 190,  "An  Act establishing  a violation  for                                                               
hindering the  Alaska Sunset Commission;  relating to  the duties                                                               
of the legislature; establishing  the Alaska Sunset Commission to                                                               
review and make recommendations  on discontinuation of or changes                                                               
to  state entities;  relating to  the  powers and  duties of  the                                                               
Alaska Sunset Commission; and providing for an effective date."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:01:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KENDRA  BROUSSARD, Staff,  Representative  Ben Carpenter,  Alaska                                                               
State  Legislature,  presented HB  190  on  behalf of  the  House                                                               
Special  Committee   on  Ways  and   Means,  sponsor,   on  which                                                               
Representative Carpenter  serves as  chair.   She spoke  from the                                                               
sponsor statement  [included in the committee  packet] which read                                                               
as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Alaska  spends  twice  as  much   as  other  states  on                                                                    
     government.  There is  not enough  time or  information                                                                    
     available  to  utilize  the annual  budget  process  to                                                                    
     ensure efficient  spending, effective  service delivery                                                                    
     and continual process improvement in state agencies.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     The Executive Budget Act requires  the Governor and his                                                                    
     agencies to  use performance and financial  data in its                                                                    
     budgeting process  and to  provide such  information to                                                                    
     the   legislature   for   its   budget   deliberations.                                                                    
     Nonetheless,  the Executive  Budget  Act  is not  being                                                                    
     followed  by the  executive or  the  legislature as  it                                                                    
     should.  Data  provided  by  executive  departments  is                                                                    
     insufficient  for  program   evaluation,  planning  and                                                                    
     budgeting.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     In addition, for the past  ten years, the State Auditor                                                                    
     has  produced   performance  review  audits   of  state                                                                    
     agencies.   Again,  these   resources  are   not  being                                                                    
     utilized by state agencies or  the legislature, and the                                                                    
     statute is sunsetting.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     HB  190 aims  to both  provide usable  data and  impose                                                                    
     recourse into  the review process. Adding  an extensive                                                                    
     third-party review,  and the  real risk that  an entity                                                                    
     of government  will be  eliminated by  law, may  be the                                                                    
     external  disruption   necessary  to  lead   to  leaner                                                                    
     government.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     HB  190 "The  Alaska Sunset  Commission Act"  will help                                                                    
     ensure  adherence   to  performance   requirements  and                                                                    
     process  improvement  in  the operation  of  our  state                                                                    
     government.  The  bill  establishes the  Alaska  Sunset                                                                    
     Commission   under  the   Lieutenant  Governor   as  an                                                                    
     independent and objective  group charged with reviewing                                                                    
     each department by division in  the state on a rotating                                                                    
     schedule.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     The Commission  will be comprised of  seven individuals                                                                    
     from   the  private   sector  with   financial,  budget                                                                    
     analysis, accounting, operations  management, and other                                                                    
     areas  of  expertise  who  will  be  appointed  by  the                                                                    
     governor (3),  speaker of the  house (2)  and president                                                                    
     of the  senate (2).  Commissioners will  have staggered                                                                    
     terms of  five years,  choose a  chair, and  will serve                                                                    
     without   compensation   but  commissioners   will   be                                                                    
     entitled  to per  diem and  travel expenses  authorized                                                                    
     for boards  and commissions. The Commission  may employ                                                                    
     staff and  hire consultants as it  determines necessary                                                                    
     to perform its duties.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Duties of  the commission will be  to determine whether                                                                    
     there  is a  public need  for the  continuation of  the                                                                    
     entity and to make  a recommendation to the legislature                                                                    
     to continue, discontinue,  restructure, or transfer the                                                                    
     duties and programs of the entity to another entity.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     The  Commission   will  review  the  entities   of  one                                                                    
     department  each year  that will  include adherence  to                                                                    
     financial  and   performance  requirements   under  the                                                                    
     Executive   Budget   Act,    utilization   of   process                                                                    
     improvement,  efficiency  of operations,  overlap  with                                                                    
     other  state  entities, and  the  extent  to which  the                                                                    
     entity  is  making  it  difficult  to  do  business  in                                                                    
     Alaska.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     The  Commission will  submit a  report to  the Governor                                                                    
     and   Legislature  within   the   first   10  days   of                                                                    
     legislative session  that includes a  recommendation to                                                                    
     continue, discontinue, restructure,  or transfer duties                                                                    
     to another entity.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Along  with  the  submission  of   the  report  to  the                                                                    
     legislature,   the   Commission    will   provide   any                                                                    
     recommended statutory  changes necessary  to accomplish                                                                    
     the  recommendations   in  the  report  to   the  Rules                                                                    
     Committees with requests to introduce the legislation.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     If  the legislature  does not  act on  the Commission's                                                                    
     report,  the  entity  subject of  the  report  will  be                                                                    
     sunset at the conclusion of the following fiscal year.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
6:06:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD provided  a sectional analysis of  HB 190 [included                                                               
in the committee packet].  She  said Sections 1-5 amend the State                                                               
Personnel Act to  include the Alaska Sunset  Commission.  Section                                                               
1  allows  persons who  hinder  the  work  of the  Alaska  Sunset                                                               
Commission to  be fined by those  who may hinder the  work of the                                                               
Legislative Budget and Audit Committee.   Section 2 provides that                                                               
a  person who  has been  convicted under  Section 1  of this  Act                                                               
cannot be appointed to state  services unless a waiver is granted                                                               
by the  commissioner of administration.   Section 3  makes public                                                               
information  that   a  state  employee  has   been  dismissed  or                                                               
disciplined  for  a  violation  of  interference  or  failure  to                                                               
cooperate with the Alaska Sunset  Commission.  Section 4 allows a                                                               
state  employee to  be disciplined  or dismissed  for failure  to                                                               
give  cooperation to  the Alaska  Sunset Commission.   Section  5                                                               
makes  interference  or  failure  to cooperate  with  the  Alaska                                                               
Sunset Commission a  matter of public concern.   Section 6 amends                                                               
the  Public  Record  Disclosure  Act to  add  the  Alaska  Sunset                                                               
Commission to the definition of "public agency."                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD stated that Section 7  adds a new section of law to                                                               
establish  the  Alaska  Sunset Commission  under  the  lieutenant                                                               
governor.    The  commission consists  of  seven  public  members                                                               
appointed  by the  governor, speaker,  and  senate president  for                                                               
staggered five-year terms.  It  establishes the qualifications of                                                               
appointed  members,   selection  of  a  chair,   and  allows  the                                                               
commission to  employ staff and hire  consultants.  Commissioners                                                               
will receive  per diem and  travel expenses.  Section  7 provides                                                               
the power and  duties of the commission,  including reviewing the                                                               
activities  of each  state entity  subject  to commission  review                                                               
state  entities, and  make  recommendations  to the  legislature.                                                               
Prior to the commission's review  of an entity, each state entity                                                               
shall  provide  to  the  legislature a  report  of  the  entity's                                                               
evaluation of its adherence to  the criteria for the commission's                                                               
review under  this Act.   Section  7 provides  for a  schedule of                                                               
entities to be  reviewed.  The entities are each  of the entities                                                               
of a one  state agency or the University of  Alaska each year for                                                               
2024 through 2035.   Section 7 provides the  criteria for review,                                                               
including  the adherence  to performance  requirements set  under                                                               
the  Executive Budget  Act, alternative  methods for  delivery of                                                               
services,  organizational processes,  efficiency  with which  the                                                               
entity  operates, reorganization  potential,  and  the extent  to                                                               
which statutory changes are necessary  for the entity to meet the                                                               
desired improvements.  Section 7  requires the commission to hold                                                               
public  hearings and  accept  public testimony.    It requires  a                                                               
report by the commission following  each review of a state entity                                                               
with   a  recommendation   to   the   legislature  to   continue,                                                               
discontinue, restructure, or transfer  the duties and programs of                                                               
the entity and a recommendation on  a winding down period for the                                                               
entity to  conclude its business  or provide for  a restructuring                                                               
plan.    The  commission  shall   include  in  the  report  draft                                                               
legislation to  implement the  recommendations of  the commission                                                               
with a request to the  rules committees to submit the legislation                                                               
for   introduction.      Section   7   provides   that   if   the                                                               
recommendations  of the  commission are  not implemented  by law,                                                               
the entity  subject to review  will be sunset  on June 30  of the                                                               
fiscal year following the review.  It also provides definitions.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD  related that Section  8 repeals  statute governing                                                               
the  disposition  of  entities, statutes  related  to  sunsetting                                                               
performance reviews.  Section 9  repeals Performance Review State                                                               
Law 2013 that  is set to sunset  July 1, 2023.   Section 10 makes                                                               
Section 9 of this Act immediately effective.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
6:10:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  BROUSSARD commenced  a  PowerPoint  presentation [hard  copy                                                               
included in the  committee packet], titled "HB  190 Alaska Sunset                                                               
Commission," dated  1/24/24.  She  reviewed slides  2-5 regarding                                                               
how  the  Alaska  Sunset  Commission will  work,  which  read  as                                                               
follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 2]                                                                                                                  
     The  Sunset  shines  a  light  on  state  agencies  and                                                                    
     programs  to  see  if  they are  still  relevant  in  a                                                                    
     changing  world.  If  the answer  is  yes,  the  Sunset                                                                    
     recommends  improvements to  make  them more  effective                                                                    
     and  efficient.  If  the  answer   is  no,  the  sunset                                                                    
     recommends  abolishing the  agency or  transferring its                                                                    
     functions to another agency with related functions.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 3]                                                                                                                  
     The Commission  would be administratively  housed under                                                                    
     the Lt.  Governor. Commissioners  will be  appointed by                                                                    
     the Governor, Speaker, and Senate President.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     The  Commission   shall  be  proficient   in  financial                                                                    
     management,  business operations,  budgeting economics,                                                                    
     process improvement or government efficiency.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     The  Commission may  hire  staff  and consultants  with                                                                    
     similar  proficiencies  to  conduct a  review  of  each                                                                    
     entity of a Department.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     HB  190 would  Require  the Commission  to hold  public                                                                    
     hearings.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     The Commission  drafts legislation  that must  be acted                                                                    
     upon or the entity will sunset.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 4]                                                                                                                  
     • Sunset Staff Evaluation                                                                                                  
        o Each year,  the Commission  will review  one state                                                                    
          department  and each  of  its entities:  divisions                                                                    
          and  corporations.   Sunset  staff   will  perform                                                                    
          extensive  research and  analysis to  evaluate the                                                                    
          need  for, performance  for,  and improvements  to                                                                    
          the entity under review.                                                                                              
     • Sunset Commission Staff                                                                                                  
        o Reviews the agency's self-evaluation report                                                                           
        o Receives input from interested parties                                                                                
        o Evaluates entity and identifies problems                                                                              
        o Develops recommendations                                                                                              
        o Publishes staff reports                                                                                               
     • Sunset Commission Deliberation                                                                                           
        o The  Sunset Commission  conducts a  public hearing                                                                    
          to  take testimony  on the  staff  report and  the                                                                    
          agency overall.  The Sunset Commission  conducts a                                                                    
          second  meeting  to  vote   on  which  changes  to                                                                    
          recommend to the Legislature.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 5]                                                                                                                  
     • Public Hearings                                                                                                          
        o Sunset    staff   presents    its   reports    and                                                                    
          recommendations                                                                                                       
        o The agency presents its response                                                                                      
        o The Sunset  Commission will hear  public testimony                                                                    
          and receive written comments                                                                                          
        o The Sunset Commission will  meet again to consider                                                                    
          and vote on recommendations                                                                                           
        o Public Input is published on the website                                                                              
        o The  Sunset  bills  will  go  through  the  normal                                                                    
          legislative process                                                                                                   
     • Legislative Action                                                                                                       
        o The  Sunset  bill  on an  entity  is  drafted  and                                                                    
          submitted through the Rules Committee                                                                                 
        o The   Legislature   will   consider   the   Sunset                                                                    
          Commission's  recommendations and  make its  final                                                                    
          decisions                                                                                                             
        o The  Senate   and  the  House   conduct  committee                                                                    
          hearings and debate/Amend the bill                                                                                    
        o Bill passes or fails adoption                                                                                         
        o If  the Legislature  fails to  adopt or  act on  a                                                                    
          bill,  the  entity  sunsets  at  the  end  of  the                                                                    
          following fiscal year.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
6:13:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD stated that HB 190 is modeled after the Texas                                                                     
Sunset Commission.   She moved to slides 6-8  regarding the model                                                               
in Texas, which read as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 6]                                                                                                                  
     The sunset process is a  key legislative oversight tool                                                                    
     that  significantly  streamlined   and  improved  Texas                                                                    
     government   since  it   was  created   by  the   Texas                                                                    
     Legislature  in  1977.  Sunset promotes  a  culture  of                                                                    
     continuous   improvement   in   state   government   by                                                                    
     providing  objective,  nonpartisan   public  forum  for                                                                    
     evaluating  the  need  for  state  agencies  and  their                                                                    
     effectiveness,  efficiency, and  responsiveness to  the                                                                    
     public.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 7]                                                                                                                  
     The  Sunset Commission  reviewed  21  entities for  the                                                                    
     88th  Legislative Session  in Texas,  resulting in  235                                                                    
     recommendations  to streamline  state government  while                                                                    
     enhancing  services  to  our citizens.  Generally,  the                                                                    
     recommendations eliminate  unnecessary regulations, and                                                                    
     improve  accountability,   align  agencies'  procedures                                                                    
     with best practices,  and strengthen effective delivery                                                                    
     of services to Texans.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     [slide 8]                                                                                                                  
     The  Texas  Sunset  process has  led  to  major  policy                                                                    
     changes  in  almost  every area  of  state  government.                                                                    
     Sunset    recommendations    also    have    eliminated                                                                    
     duplication  among  agencies  and  programs,  increased                                                                    
     public    participation,    helped   with    government                                                                    
     accountability,   and   improved    the   quality   and                                                                    
     efficiency of government services.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD turned attention to slide 9, "Sunset's Impact                                                                     
Since 1977," which read as follows [original punctuation                                                                        
provided]:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Streamlining Texas Government                                                                                              
     • 42 entities and programs have been abolished                                                                             
     •  52 entities  and programs  have  been abolished  and                                                                    
        transferred or consolidated                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Saving Taxpayer money                                                                                                      
     • $1 billion in state and federal savings and revenue                                                                      
        gains                                                                                                                   
        • Return of $18 for every $1 appropriated to the                                                                        
        Sunset Commission since 1985                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Providing Effective Oversight                                                                                              
     • 570 reviews of state agencies and programs conducted                                                                     
         • 80 percent of Sunset recommendations to the                                                                          
        Legislature have become state law since 2001                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD displayed slide 10 which listed State of Alaska                                                                   
department entities as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
        • Department of Administration - 15                                                                                     
        • Department of Commerce, Community and Economic                                                                        
          Development - 18                                                                                                      
        • Department of Corrections - 4                                                                                         
      • Department of Education and Early Development - 5                                                                       
        • Department of Environmental Conservation - 5                                                                          
        • Department of Family and Community Services - 7                                                                       
        • Department of Fish and Game - 10                                                                                      
        • Department of Health - 8                                                                                              
        • Department of Labor and Workforce Development -                                                                       
          11                                                                                                                    
        • Department of Law - 8                                                                                                 
       • Department of Military and Veterans Affairs - 12                                                                       
        • Department of Natural Resources - 13                                                                                  
        • Department of Public Safety - 14                                                                                      
        • Department of Revenue - 16                                                                                            
        • Department    of    Transportation   and    Public                                                                    
          Facilities - 31                                                                                                       
        • University of Alaska - 3                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Total amount of Entities = 180                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MS. BROUSSARD, in conclusion, showed helpful links on slide 11                                                                  
and offered to answer questions.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
6:15:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY inquired about how the Executive Budget Act                                                                 
is different than HB 190.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
6:16:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DONNA ARDUIN,  Staff, Representative Ben Carpenter,  Alaska State                                                               
Legislature,  replied that  the Executive  Budget Act,  Title 37,                                                               
requires,  among  other  things,   for  the  legislature  to  set                                                               
missions   for  state   agencies,  key   performance  indicators,                                                               
performance  measures,   and  how   those  should   be  measuring                                                               
everything that  the agencies are  doing.  So, one  criterion for                                                               
the Alaska Sunset  Commission is to ensure that  the agencies are                                                               
adhering to the standards set by the legislature.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY  asked whether  the most critical  failure in                                                               
the  Executive  Branch  and the  legislature  not  following  the                                                               
Executive Budget Act is that the legislature isn't following up.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. ARDUIN  responded that technically it's  the legislature that                                                               
isn't following  what is required.   The legislature  is required                                                               
to set  the missions and  performance measures for  the agencies.                                                               
The  Executive  Branch  has  kept  a  schedule  of  missions  and                                                               
performance  indicators.   However,  those aren't  being used  in                                                               
either the budgeting  process or the management  process of those                                                               
agencies.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY asked how the  Executive Budget Act should be                                                               
followed by the  legislature and why the  legislature isn't doing                                                               
it.  He further asked  about what an individual legislator should                                                               
be doing to follow the Act.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ARDUIN answered  that the  Alaska  Sunset Commission  would,                                                               
among  many  other  criteria,  be   reviewing  adherence  to  the                                                               
Executive Budget  Act, whether there  is an  alternative delivery                                                               
method  for  those  services and  performance  requirements,  the                                                               
extent to which the entity is  organized in a manner for business                                                               
process  improvement,  efficiency  within   the  way  the  entity                                                               
operates,  and whether  there  is any  overlap  of services  with                                                               
other entities.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:18:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CARPENTER addressed  Representative Gray's  question about                                                               
what  the legislature  should be  doing to  follow the  Executive                                                               
Budget Act.   He outlined  the long  list of what  legislators do                                                               
each day  throughout a  legislative session  and stated  that the                                                               
process of  doing a deep  dive into evaluating management  of all                                                               
180 entities  is therefore beyond  the scope of  what legislators                                                               
can do.   But the  Executive Budget  Act says the  legislature is                                                               
supposed  to  provide  the  guidance   for  mission,  goals,  and                                                               
performance  measures  to  the   executive  branch  for  all  180                                                               
entities  to   ensure  that  the  government   is  being  managed                                                               
appropriately.   Given the legislature  isn't going to get  to it                                                               
with business as normal within  a legislative session, the intent                                                               
of HB 190 in creating the  Sunset Commission is to complement the                                                               
responsibilities   of  both   the   Executive   Branch  and   the                                                               
legislature in  providing public input  as to how  the government                                                               
of the people for the people is supposed to be run.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
6:20:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY  remarked that it sounds  like [the Executive                                                               
Budget Act]  had unrealistic expectations of  how the legislature                                                               
could possibly do what the Act asks it to do for 180 entities.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER replied  that he can't say it  was unrealistic at                                                               
the time  it was written.   But, he  continued, he knows  that in                                                               
his own everyday  business being able to review  the missions and                                                               
measures  for  each  department  is  outside  the  scope  of  his                                                               
available time unless  he were to pare down what  he is trying to                                                               
do within the legislative session.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY stated  that doing these deep  dives into 180                                                               
entities seems  like a big job  for [seven] people to  do who are                                                               
not compensated.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER  answered that  the fiscal note  is just  over $1                                                               
million because the  commission is empowered to hire  staff to do                                                               
most of that  work daily.  The commissioners  would give guidance                                                               
to and  supervise the trained  staff and would  meet periodically                                                               
to review and publish recommendations  to the legislature and the                                                               
Executive Branch.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
6:22:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TILTON, to  give an  idea of  the time  involved,                                                               
recounted that in  2012 or 2013 the "finance  committee" on which                                                               
she was staff conducted a deep  dive on every division within the                                                               
Department  of  Health  and  Social   Services.    While  not  as                                                               
extensive as  is proposed  in HB  190, she said,  it took  a full                                                               
interim  to review  each division's  mission, measures,  what the                                                               
public  thought the  division  did well,  and  what the  division                                                               
thought it did well.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER  commented that legislators  are looking  at this                                                               
from  a legislative  perspective but  when looking  at it  from a                                                               
bureaucracy's perspective, [an  agency] is busy doing  day to day                                                               
functions, and  to add on  a review of  how it is  doing business                                                               
becomes a  big burden.  So,  help must be asked  from somebody to                                                               
do  a review  periodically of  whether things  are headed  in the                                                               
right direction.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TILTON concurred  with asking  the administration                                                               
to do  this kind of  review, especially during session,  since it                                                               
was difficult  even during the  interim given the  department was                                                               
carrying on with its business.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
6:25:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCABE proffered  it would  take 16  years to  go                                                               
through  all 16  departments.   He asked  whether the  assumption                                                               
being used  here is  based on  Texas making $18  per $1  from its                                                               
commission.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER  responded that past performance  doesn't predict                                                               
future returns.  He said he  doesn't know that Alaska can achieve                                                               
the same rate  of improvement as Texas as he  hasn't attempted to                                                               
quantify  that.   Regarding the  length  of time,  he stated  the                                                               
process might be quicker based  on some departments being made up                                                               
of only a few entities.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:27:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GROH  stated it is  clear and undisputed  that the                                                               
governor  and legislature  could do  this now,  though it  hasn't                                                               
occurred.  He inquired about  the accountability and transparency                                                               
of  non-elected  commissioners  doing this  work  versus  elected                                                               
constitutional officers of the legislature and the governor.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER  answered that  he isn't  too concerned  with the                                                               
commissioners not  being duly elected because  the recommendation                                                               
that  they make  is going  to the  duly elected  representatives.                                                               
That  is in  the same  vein as  non-elected staff  or consultants                                                               
hired by the  legislature to provide advice,  and the legislature                                                               
then chooses whether to act on  that advice.  The bill is drafted                                                               
to   force  the   legislature  to   take  seriously   what  those                                                               
commissioners have said and act upon it in some form.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GROH  commended   Chair  Carpenter  for  bringing                                                               
forward the  recommendations of the fiscal  policy working group,                                                               
one  of those  recommendations being  for budget  reductions over                                                               
time.  He  said he is interested in efficiencies  and finding the                                                               
right  reductions to  make  is  a good  thing  for  the state  in                                                               
combination with other steps to  resolve the state's deficit.  He                                                               
said he would  like to learn more about the  actual experience of                                                               
Texas and how exactly it worked.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER  drew attention  to the  links provided  on slide                                                               
11, one  of which  is for the  Texas Sunset  Advisory Commission.                                                               
He  encouraged members  to do  their due  diligence, learn  about                                                               
what Texas has done, and come back for discussion.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
6:31:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRAY  asked  whether  anything about  HB  190  is                                                               
changed  in  the context  of  the  governor having  13  executive                                                               
orders  (EOs)  to  eliminate  some  boards  and  commissions  and                                                               
consolidate.  He  further asked whether the  governor would still                                                               
be able to do this same thing if HB 190 were in effect.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CARPENTER  offered  his  belief that  nothing  in  HB  190                                                               
addresses the governor's authority  to restructure the government                                                               
per the constitutional  and statutory that he has now.   The bill                                                               
should be  thought of as an  addition to both the  governor's and                                                               
the legislature's  authorities because  the legislature  can also                                                               
restructure.   The  bill provides  a  level of  detail through  a                                                               
consistent study  methodology that  gives better data  and better                                                               
information.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY agreed.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
6:33:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ARDUIN  returned  to Representative  McCabe's  point.    She                                                               
clarified that  in HB 190  there is a one  year and an  order for                                                               
the  entities to  review.   She  suggested members  look at  that                                                               
provision and determine whether  they would like some flexibility                                                               
in that  or a timeframe change.   She further clarified  that the                                                               
entities  being  reviewed  under   the  departments  include  the                                                               
divisions as  well as the  corporations, boards,  and commissions                                                               
underneath the  department.  Corporations, she  advised, have not                                                               
had the  kind of review  or oversight  that some of  the agencies                                                               
and divisions have had.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE  posed a scenario in  which the legislature                                                               
receives  a report  that  says to  shut down  an  entity but  the                                                               
legislator in whose  district the entity is  located doesn't want                                                               
it shut  down, causing  it to  become a  political football.   He                                                               
asked whether  there is a way  to make the language  take it away                                                               
from  the legislature,  so  it  isn't so  political  and is  more                                                               
economic driven.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. ARDUIN responded that while  the legislature has had failures                                                               
in the  past to  follow through on  any type  of recommendations,                                                               
there is a lot  of teeth in this.  The  commission can submit any                                                               
bill  it  would like  through  the  rules  committee and  if  the                                                               
legislature  doesn't take  up the  bill or  pass the  bill    the                                                               
legislature can amend  the bill   that  entity will automatically                                                               
be sunset at the end of the next year.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:35:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY surmised that  the commission could find that                                                               
something should be  eliminated, the legislature takes  it up and                                                               
decides to  eliminate it,  but the governor  vetoes the  bill and                                                               
therefore it isn't eliminated.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. ARDUIN confirmed that that is correct.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRAY presumed  this would  always be  reported to                                                               
the legislature, not a situation  where the commission recommends                                                               
elimination, and the governor decides  to eliminate it.  He noted                                                               
the large number of EOs and  postulated that this would just be a                                                               
different  avenue for  the legislature  to  eliminate boards  and                                                               
commissions or change boards and commissions.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ARDUIN  responded  that  the  governor's  EO  reorganization                                                               
abilities  are simply  to reorganize,  not to  remove any  of the                                                               
powers  and  duties  of  any  entity  or  change  the  management                                                               
structures;  anything on  statute  under those  boards would  now                                                               
fall to  somebody else.   The  Sunset Commission  could recommend                                                               
those  things,  but  HB  190  goes  far  beyond  the  ability  to                                                               
reorganize  as in  the  governor's executive  orders.   The  bill                                                               
allows for changes  in programs, changes in the  way programs are                                                               
delivered, and changing the management of those programs.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
6:37:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER stated  he will look for case  studies from Texas                                                               
and bring them forward as examples of how they worked in Texas.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY stated that he likes HB 190.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. ARDUIN related  that the Texas Sunset Commission  is proud of                                                               
having implemented  more responsiveness  to the public,  which is                                                               
not done when audits are conducted of departments in Alaska.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
6:38:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE noted  that there are DOTPF  roads and city                                                               
roads within  the Municipality of Anchorage  that are snowplowed.                                                               
He  asked  how  a  snowplowing  recommendation  from  the  Sunset                                                               
Commission would be handled when  there are cross agency or cross                                                               
governmental entities involved.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. ARDUIN  replied that  when the  Sunset Commission  reviews an                                                               
entity,  that  entity and  all  its  subdivisions must  submit  a                                                               
report to the commission, so the  entity is the first reporter to                                                               
say it  has issues.  Then  as the commission continues  its work,                                                               
it  involves the  public, which  in this  scenario would  involve                                                               
folks from Anchorage.  The  commission would hold public hearings                                                               
and then come up with its recommendations.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CARPENTER stated  that  in addition  to  employees of  the                                                               
commission  who are  subject matter  experts,  the commission  is                                                               
empowered to  bring in  expertise to help  in solving  a problem.                                                               
If there  were issues with  the Municipality of Anchorage  or any                                                               
jurisdiction,  there would  be an  opportunity for  collaboration                                                               
and   public    involvement   to   provide    understanding   and                                                               
recommendations,  which currently  isn't being  done so  it would                                                               
force  the  legislature  and  the  executive.    In  addition  to                                                               
statutory change,  [HB 190] provides  for changes  to regulation,                                                               
which  wouldn't require  action on  the legislature's  part, only                                                               
action on the Executive Branch's part.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. ARDUIN  added that HB  190 also gives the  commission's staff                                                               
and  consultants  the  ability  to  attend  any  meeting  of  the                                                               
department  and   have  access   to  any  information   that  the                                                               
department has  available, something that is  much more difficult                                                               
for legislators to do on a daily basis.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:41:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRAY stated  that Anchorage  taking over  all the                                                               
snowplowing would  be a very  complicated.  He asked  whether the                                                               
Executive  Budget Act  should be  repealed  if HB  190 is  passed                                                               
given the Act isn't serving its purpose and isn't being done.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER answered  that he has another  bill that rewrites                                                               
the Executive Budget Act to  draw the legislature's attention and                                                               
help  the legislature  better follow  the  Executive Budget  Act.                                                               
The  Sunset Commission  would be  a second  tool that  helps both                                                               
branches achieve  a leaner  government that  isn't tied  into the                                                               
Executive Budget Act.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY  said his  research of  the Texas  Sunset Act                                                               
found  an  example  of  an  environmental  agency  that  was  not                                                               
enforcing regulations.  [The Texas  Sunset Commission] forced the                                                               
agency  to  start  doing  its job  rather  than  eliminating  the                                                               
agency.  So, it's  about making an agency do its  work as well as                                                               
about making it leaner.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR   CARPENTER  concurred   that  a   review  by   either  the                                                               
legislature or  the commission could  result in  a recommendation                                                               
regarding  an inefficiency  or  a  recommendation regarding  work                                                               
that isn't being done.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:44:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE TILTON noted she understands  that there is a cost                                                               
benefit  but inquired  about the  commission's [proposed]  budget                                                               
given that staff and consultants come at a high price.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER invited the Office  of the Lieutenant Governor to                                                               
review the fiscal note that it drafted for HB 190.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
6:45:26 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KELLY HOWEL, Chief  of Staff, Office of  the Lieutenant Governor,                                                               
explained  that the  bill's fiscal  note  for the  first year  is                                                               
$1,150,000, which includes startup  costs, and then about $10,000                                                               
less through  the out years.   She pointed out that  HB 190 gives                                                               
the  commission  the discretion  to  hire  staff, the  number  of                                                               
staff, and qualifications  of those staff, so  assumptions had to                                                               
be made  when estimating  the fiscal note.   The  assumption made                                                               
for  staff   was  a   minimum  of   five,  which   would  include                                                               
administrative  support, an  accountant,  auditors,  and, as  the                                                               
Texas  Sunset  Advisory [Commission]  has  done,  an attorney  to                                                               
provide  legal  advice.   Travel  costs  are estimated  at  about                                                               
$23,000 a  year for the commission  to meet and for  staff travel                                                               
to  do audits.    Contractual services  for  setup costs,  office                                                               
space and  leasing costs, and  consultant costs are  estimated at                                                               
$200,000 per  year.   Commodities are supplies  that are  seen in                                                               
the startup year but not the out years.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:48:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   TILTON  recommended   that  the   Alaska  Sunset                                                               
Commission  be stationed  on the  road system  so the  public can                                                               
attend and participate in the transparency.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
6:48:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRAY stated that Section 1  of HB 190 puts in some                                                               
teeth by  providing that  someone who  refuses to  cooperate with                                                               
the Legislative Budget  and Audit Committee can  be fined $5,000.                                                               
He surmised this is being  added to something that already exists                                                               
if someone doesn't cooperate with the committee.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER confirmed that that is correct.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRAY asked  whether people  don't cooperate  with                                                               
the  Legislative Budget  and Audit  Committee  and whether  those                                                               
people are fined.  He said he  wants to know that there are teeth                                                               
and an enforcement mechanism when somebody refuses to cooperate.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  CARPENTER responded  that he  has only  been chair  of the                                                               
Legislative Budget and Audit Committee  for a year, so he doesn't                                                               
have  an  historical answer.    However,  to his  knowledge,  the                                                               
Legislative  Budget and  Audit Committee  has never  fined anyone                                                               
for not  providing information, and  to his knowledge,  there has                                                               
never  been a  problem over  the last  year with  information not                                                               
being  presented to  the committee  on ask.   He  noted that  the                                                               
Legislative Budget  and Audit Committee includes  the Legislative                                                               
Finance Division and the Legislative Audit Division.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
6:50:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR CARPENTER announced that HB 190 was held over.                                                                            

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
HB 190 v.B.PDF HW&M 5/9/2023 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/24/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/31/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 2/14/2024 6:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB 190 - Sponsor Statement.pdf HW&M 5/9/2023 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/24/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/31/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 2/14/2024 6:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB 190 - Sectional Analysis.pdf HW&M 5/9/2023 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/24/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/31/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 2/14/2024 6:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB190 Alaska Sunset Commission Presentation.pdf HW&M 1/24/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/31/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 2/14/2024 6:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB 190 List of Divisions and Corporations Under Each Department (for presentation).pdf HW&M 1/24/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/31/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 2/14/2024 6:00:00 PM
HB 190
HB 190-OOG-LTG-01-11-24 Fiscal Note.pdf HW&M 1/24/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 1/31/2024 6:00:00 PM
HW&M 2/14/2024 6:00:00 PM
HB 190