Legislature(1999 - 2000)
04/28/1999 01:20 PM House JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 177 - FOSTER CARE & DELINQUENT MINORS
CHAIRMAN KOTT announced the next order of business is House Bill
177, "An Act relating to foster parents; relating to the right of
foster parents to have notice of, and testify at, delinquency
hearings and to the disclosure of minors' records to foster
parents; and amending Rules 3, 7, 10, 12, 21, 23, and 25, Alaska
Delinquency Rules."
CHAIRMAN KOTT indicated the committee would be taking up CSHB
177(HES), Version 1-LS0760\G.
Number 0344
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON, Alaska State Legislature, came before
the committee as sponsor of HB 177. He noted that the bill cleans
up a piece of the child protection bill from last year. He asked
Ms. Lisa Torkelson to explain the bill.
Number 0366
LISA TORKELSON, Legislative Assistant to Representative Fred Dyson,
Alaska State Legislature, explained last year HB 456 was introduced
which gave the right of foster parents to have notice of and
testify at child-in-need-of-aid delinquency hearings, as well as
disclose to them some records of children in their care. She noted
that the child-in-need-of-aid portion was put into HB 375 - the
governor's child protection bill - and this bill would take the
delinquency portion and make it go to the same level as a child in
need of aid.
Number 0400
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted that last year there was unanimous
support for the need of foster parents to have information on past
criminal behavior and behavioral problems; and, that foster parents
would be a valuable asset in the treatment plans, final placement
plans, and court proceedings involving their children. That was
included in the child-in-need-of-aid law, last year, and this bill
takes care of the children in the other category that by-en-large
have been adjudicated as delinquent.
Number 0428
MS. TORKELSON noted that the only reason it was not included in the
governor's child protection bill last year was because it was 64
pages long and it pretty much focused on children in need of aid.
They were not comfortable with adding section 12, which deals with
delinquency, and they requested it be done in a separate bill.
Number 0449
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG asked Representative Dyson why HB 15 is not
stuck in this bill.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON replied they are very close.
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT AND REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked
Representative Rokeberg to explain HB 15.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied it is a bill that gives foster
parents the right to protest the placement or removal of a child
back to his/her natural parent(s) in court.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON noted he is a co-sponsor of that bill, and it
is a good idea.
Number 0485
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked what the material difference is between
the two bills.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG replied it is the right of a foster parent
to protest the placement or removal of a child back to his/her
natural parent(s) in court.
Number 0516
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT stated that HB 15 assures the right of the
foster parent to have a notice of and testify at delinquency
hearings, but not necessarily ask for a hearing in a particular
factual situation.
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated that is the distinction between the
two bills.
MS. TORKELSON said it basically includes the foster parents in the
loop of the department because often times they have the most
knowledge of the children.
Number 0539
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON suggested passing HB 177 out of committee, at
which point he would look at merging the bills either on the House
floor or in the House Rules Standing Committee. He's sorry that he
didn't think of it earlier.
Number 0572
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said she is happy to see this bill before the
committee. She knows how important it is for foster parents to be
included in the loop. She knows that when they have been left out
of the loop it has been unfortunate for them and the kids.
Furthermore, it's not easy to keep foster parents around. They can
get discouraged fast, and they aren't easy to come by. She knows
of the problems, having been a foster parent herself, but she's not
sure, however, what would happen if a foster parent has erred.
They should also have the right to speak on their own behalf.
Number 0623
CHAIRMAN KOTT called for a brief at-ease at 2:24 p.m. and called
the meeting back to order at 2:25 p.m.
Number 0637
ROBERT BUTTCANE, Juvenile Probation Officer, Youth Corrections,
Division of Family and Youth Services, Department of Health and
Social Services, came before the committee to testify in favor of
HB 177. It is appropriate to bring parity between the two statutes
regulating delinquency proceedings and children in need of aid. He
is concerned about HB 15, but as far as HB 177 is written, it is
appropriate. He urged the committee to move it forward.
Number 0666
CHAIRMAN KOTT asked Mr. Buttcane what his specific concerns are
regarding HB 15.
MR. BUTTCANE replied HB 15 speaks to very specific situations that
arise in child-in-need-of-aid proceedings, and muddies the waters
by transposing those into a delinquency proceeding. He would want
to look very carefully at that before speaking in favor of merging
the bills. He noted that it is a sound concept and that he thinks
that foster parents should be treated as partners in dealing with
either delinquents or children in need of aid, but HB 15 is
something that the department probably would not want in the
delinquency statute.
Number 0714
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated for clarification that it would not
be in the delinquency statute.
MR. BUTTCANE noted that HB 177 really speaks to the delinquency
statutes.
Number 0751
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. Buttcane to review HB 15 later
knowing that it might be thrown together in the House Rules
Standing Committee. He would like to know whether or not he has
any objections before it goes to the House floor.
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. Buttcane how the
child-in-need-of-aid and delinquency statutes are distinguishable.
MR. BUTTCANE replied a child in need of aid is a person who has
been neglected or abused, whereas a delinquent is a person who has
been a perpetrator or offender. In one, a child is being
protected, while in the other, a child is being regulated to
protect the community.
Number 0830
BLAIR McCUNE, Deputy Director, Central Office, Public Defender
Agency, Department of Administration, testified via teleconference
from Anchorage in favor of HB 177. Foster parents are a real big
help in juvenile delinquency cases. There appears to be a notice
provision in the early stage of a juvenile delinquency case whereby
a foster parent would have to be notified. The agency is wondering
whether that means a foster parent for child in need of aid in
which that child has done something wrong and has gotten into the
delinquency system. Usually, the placement in a foster home
happens after the arraignment. He further suggested considering
the issue of safety in regards to delinquent children. He referred
the committee members to page 7, Section 9, of the bill, and noted
that foster parents need to know before a child in placed in their
home about their prior records, incidents in that child's life, and
their issues. It looks like the section deals with a court review,
and noted a lot of the court files have pretty confidential
material, such as a psychotherapist's review.
Number 1018
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said, from personal experience, foster parents
ought to know everything about a foster child in their home. She
doesn't understand his concern about not letting them know what
they need to know in order to parent that child and to know what to
expect.
Number 1046
MR. McCUNE replied he is thinking about a case where an adolescent
boy was sexually abused. The particulars of that abuse would be
discussed with a therapist with a real clear understanding that the
information is kept confidential. Foster parents have a legitimate
need to know the generals of a case, but the particulars are
included in the court's files. A foster parent doesn't need to
know the details of the who, what, when and where.
Number 1115
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES stated a birth parent knows all about the
child from birth, whereas a foster parent has to jump in in the
middle. Foster parents need all the help that they possibly can to
understand what to anticipate and why a child does what he does.
She agrees that the sordid details don't necessarily need to be
part of an issue, but certainly the issues would need to be made
available to the foster parent.
Number 1156
MR. McCUNE agreed with Representative James.
Number 1164
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. McCune whether the foster parents
are considered the guardian or is the state.
MR. McCUNE replied, generally, the Department of Health and Social
Services has legal custody in both juvenile delinquency and
child-in-need-of-aid cases. In child-in-need-of-aid cases there is
a provision just for supervision, and in juvenile delinquency cases
there could be a relative placement where the department would not
have custody.
Number 1213
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT asked Mr. McCune whether that is the reason
for a gap when using the phrase, "parent or legal guardian."
Foster parents fall between the two.
Number 1227
MR. McCUNE replied, yes, but they have been given more and more
rights and considerations in the past several years as the result
of legislation. The buck stops, however, with the Department of
Health and Social Services.
Number 1249
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES responded that is the way it ought to be. A
foster parent needs a place to go for responsibility.
Number 1278
MR. BUTTCANE referred the committee members to page 3, section 3,
of the bill, and noted that it would require the department to
notify the foster parent of an informal action/adjustment, which is
appropriate. A child who is in a foster home may be committing
offenses and is asked to come in and talk with the department to
explain his/her behavior and negotiate a consequence, or be held
accountable through a delinquency petition.
Number 1359
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. McCune whether there are any
qualifying words for Section 9, in the bill, that would make him
feel more comfortable. The language matches the
child-in-need-of-aid section.
MR. McCUNE replied, he thinks, it gives the courts the authority to
hold back information of concern. He doesn't have a proposal to
change it, however.
Number 1419
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG said, according to his reading of the
section, it's just granting a foster parent - the person with a
legitimate interest - the right to look at a portion of the court's
record.
Number 1452
MS. TORKELSON explained that this very issue was addressed last
year, which resulted in the language in the section in order that
the court could choose what information is given to a foster
parent.
Number 1492
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT said he sees the distinction, but he's not
sure that the language accomplishes that. The language really says
the portions relating to the child have to be released, which is
everything. It doesn't say relating to the function or portions
relating to the safety and welfare of what a foster parent should
know. He's not sure how to draft it, however, so that it's not
overly intrusive.
Number 1589
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted that the bill says with the court's
permission. She reads it as having the courts permissions "and" a
person with a legitimate interest.
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT said, "I think that's probably a correct
reading, and if it is, then the court, even with people with
legitimate interests, they don't have to do it if they decide they
don't want to."
Number 1644
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG stated he reads it as the court giving
permission for the portion of a record it wants the foster parent
to see.
Number 1668
CHAIRMAN KOTT said that is the way he reads it as well, and that is
the intent of the sponsor.
Number 1676
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said, "Slap my mouth. I am more now of the
persuasion than ever, that we need to be wary about limiting court
prerogatives. My view is, we need to get gutter mechanics in the
court system, but allow them quite a bit of discretion. In my
own--the judges that I've dealt with, which are quite a few now,
in--that are dealing with children's issues are generally very
experienced and quite perceptive about these sort of things. My
guess is we will not err or there won't be many problems in
allowing the judges as Representative Rokeberg says is we know the
files for those portions that are inappropriate."
Number 1719
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said she wishes that she has had the same
experiences.
Number 1730
REPRESENTATIVE ROKEBERG indicated that the committee, if the
sponsor wishes, could put discretionary language in relation to the
court to make it crystal clear.
Number 1766
DOUG WOOLIVER, Administrative Attorney, Administrative Staff,
Office of the Administrative Director, Alaska Court System, came
before the committee to answer questions. The language was part of
last year's child protection bill and it should be in this portion
as well. The judges are comfortable with it. The concern that was
brought to him was that the foster parents get the appropriate
information relating to the children, but not information that is
not relevant to them, such as personal information on the natural
parents.
Number 1839
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT referred to AS 47.12.310 and read the
following:
"(H) foster parent or relatives with whom the child is
placed by the department as may be necessary to enable
the foster parents or relatives to provide appropriate
care for the child who is the subject of the case, to
protect the safety of the child who is the subject of the
case, and to protect the safety and property of family
members and visitors of the foster parents or relatives."
REPRESENTATIVE CROFT stated, based on that provision, the committee
may have done enough by putting its concerns on the record.
Number 1926
CHAIRMAN KOTT asked Representative Dyson whether he is comfortable
with the language the way it is.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON replied yes.
Number 1956
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES made a motion to move CSHB 177(HES) from the
committee with individual recommendations and the attached fiscal
note(s). There being no objection, it was so moved from the House
Judiciary Standing Committee.
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