Legislature(1999 - 2000)

04/23/1999 03:25 PM House L&C

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                                                                                                                                
HB 167 - REGULATION OF MOBILE HOME DEALERS                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0964                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced the committee's next order of business                                                              
is HB 167, "An Act relating to mobile home dealers."                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0972                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
PETER TORKELSON, Researcher for Representative John Cowdery, Alaska                                                             
State Legislature, came forward to present HB 167 on behalf of the                                                              
bill sponsor, Representative Cowdery, who was also in attendance.                                                               
Mr. Torkelson stated HB 167 was designed to remedy what they                                                                    
believe is an untenable situation under existing law.  Used mobile                                                              
home dealers are required to be licensed and bonded.  The question                                                              
is:  To whose benefit?  The mobile homes sold by used dealers carry                                                             
no warranty; the rule is buyer beware.  Mr. Torkelson noted the                                                                 
committee has been provided with copies of numerous binding                                                                     
documents that the buyer must sign in order to close the purchase.                                                              
In no fewer than five places the buyer is reminded that there is no                                                             
warranty on the product he or she is purchasing.  It is worth                                                                   
noting not one claim has been made against a licensee or the                                                                    
licensee's bond under the existing law.  Indeed, it is difficult to                                                             
find any compelling reason for regulating a used mobile home dealer                                                             
who offers no warranty.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORKELSON noted they have been informed that most of the used                                                               
mobile home dealers are relatively small operators.  To these                                                                   
operators, the cost or perhaps unavailability of bonding can mean                                                               
the difference between staying in or going out of business.  It can                                                             
mean the difference between operating a legitimate business or                                                                  
operating one that merely exists on the margins.  Mr. Torkelson                                                                 
indicated it a worthy goal to protect small business and promote a                                                              
vibrant community of competition, which is what HB 167 does.  House                                                             
Bill 167 relieves the small operator from the burden of bonding                                                                 
against a claim that will never come.  If the current statutes                                                                  
suppress competition with burdensome bonding fees, there will                                                                   
probably be someone who supports keeping the statutes in place.                                                                 
Mr. Torkelson noted they do not support the current structure; they                                                             
have put HB 167 forward to correct this situation and relieve small                                                             
business.  He asked for the committee's support.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1066                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned the cost of the $50,000 bond.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORKELSON noted the cost would vary with the experience of the                                                              
person applying for the bond and the risk perceived by the bonding                                                              
agent.  They have received indication the bond can cost up to                                                                   
$1,500.  Mr. Torkelson commented some people, because of a past                                                                 
bankruptcy, might not even be able to attain a bond.  He asked if                                                               
they were going to eliminate some people from this business simply                                                              
because they could not attain an affordable bond.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI indicated the sponsor statement relates                                                                
that there are currently 14 licensed mobile home dealers statewide                                                              
and 10 of these would no longer need licensing if this legislation                                                              
was passed.  She asked if there are only four dealers throughout                                                                
the state who sell exclusively new mobile homes.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORKELSON replied the current wording of the bill would require                                                             
those dealers selling both new and used mobile homes to maintain                                                                
licensing and bonding.  It is their understanding from information                                                              
received from the Division of Occupational Licensing that of the 14                                                             
licensed mobile home dealers in the state, only 4 of those deal in                                                              
new mobile homes.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed there were no further questions for the                                                             
sponsor's staff.  The committee proceeded to take teleconference                                                                
testimony.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1177                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
GALE KINCAID, Owner/Operator, Triad Sales Company, Incorporated,                                                                
testified next via teleconference from Anchorage in support of HB
167.  He noted his family has owned and operated Triad Sales                                                                    
Company in Anchorage for the past 10 years.  He asks the                                                                        
committee's support of HB 167 for the following reasons.  All used                                                              
mobile homes are sold as is, where is, with no warranty intended or                                                             
implied.  His company has never had a problem because this clause                                                               
is spelled out in several places in its documents.  He does not                                                                 
believe a bond is needed when there is no liability to the dealer                                                               
or protection to the consumer.  The bond does help reduce                                                                       
competition because most small dealers cannot obtain one.                                                                       
Currently the state does not enforce HB 436 and many dealers today                                                              
are forced to operate without a bond [HB 436, Nineteenth                                                                        
Legislature, "An Act relating to purchase and sale of mobile homes                                                              
by mobile home dealers; to mobile home titles; and providing for an                                                             
effective date."  Misstated on tape as "House Bill 346"].  Mr.                                                                  
Kincaid reiterated his support for HB 167.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI noted it was nice to hear Mr. Kincaid's                                                                
voice, indicating that they have known each other for a while.  She                                                             
referred to Mr. Kincaid's statement that all used mobile homes are                                                              
sold without a warranty and that with Mr. Kincaid's company they                                                                
are always sold as is, where is.  Representative Murkowski asked if                                                             
anyone selling used mobile homes offered a warranty, to Mr.                                                                     
Kincaid's knowledge.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1266                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID replied none he knew of.  He indicated the only one                                                                 
that might is Carey Homes, Incorporated; they sell new and used,                                                                
and are probably one of the best in town.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked if he knew whether or not Carey                                                                  
Homes included a warranty with those used mobile homes the company                                                              
sold.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID answered that he believes Carey Homes usually owns and                                                              
finances the product itself, noting Representative Murkowski could                                                              
ask Mr. Carey.  He commented this is a lot different than himself                                                               
or other used dealers who are selling the mobile homes for                                                                      
individuals.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY asked Mr. Kincaid if he had ever had any                                                                 
claims or problems, for example, from a buyer for a refrigerator                                                                
failing in two days or two months.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID responded they have never had a claim.  They state it                                                               
very well:  they sell a used mobile home, they never owned it,                                                                  
never lived in it, they don't guarantee it.  They only guarantee                                                                
that when the buyer opens the door and moves in, all the appliances                                                             
will be working.  After that there is no guarantee because "you                                                                 
can't tell on used."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked if Mr. Kincaid took an earnest money or                                                                 
down payment when someone buys a used mobile ["motor"] home from                                                                
his business.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1355                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID answered in the affirmative, noting it starts the                                                                   
contract:  earnest money, deposit to purchase based on terms or                                                                 
conditions of the purchase.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted this is similar to a real estate deal.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID agreed; earnest money is received and then typing the                                                               
contracts and closing the sale proceeds.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned how the financing is usually handled                                                               
for those kind of homes.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID commented that although the banks in Anchorage say they                                                             
finance mobile homes, most don't.  Ninety percent of his company's                                                              
sales are owner-financed.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned how this works:  Does Mr. Kincaid take                                                             
his goods on consignment or something?                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID answered they consign it like a real estate company:                                                                
They find a buyer, go to the owner of the mobile home, the owner                                                                
accepts the deal, Mr. Kincaid's company types the contracts,                                                                    
follows with a bank escrow, the new buyer pays the bank.  He                                                                    
continued, "The bank pays you, and you, as an owner and financer."                                                              
Mr. Kincaid noted that is 98 percent of their business.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG said his reason for the questions is that a bond                                                              
is one of the provisions of this licensing law.  Usually the bond                                                               
is a surety bond to protect against the breach of fiduciary duty.                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1434                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID noted most banks handle the money.  They have an escrow                                                             
account, naturally, but it is all spelled out in their paperwork:                                                               
the money goes for down payment and it is refundable if it is not                                                               
financed.  Mr. Kincaid commented he has never gone to court over                                                                
this problem in 35 years in this business.  He does not know of any                                                             
other used mobile home dealers who have had the problem.  They used                                                             
to be required to have a $10,000 DMV [Department of Motor Vehicles]                                                             
bond.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned what this was about.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID replied they handled titles - they had a $10,000 DMV                                                                
bond to transfer titles, et cetera.  They are no longer required to                                                             
have this bond because they cannot transfer titles since DMV does                                                               
not recognize them as a dealer.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY confirmed that they were speaking of only                                                                
mobile homes, not motor homes.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1529                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
GEORGE REED, Co-Owner, Lov-Bud Homes, testified next via                                                                        
teleconference from Anchorage.  He noted he was co-owner of his                                                                 
company with his wife.  They sell approximately 12 used mobile                                                                  
homes a year.  Mr. Reed commented, as Mr. Kincaid had said, they                                                                
sell the homes for people like a Realtor.  They advertise and sell                                                              
people's homes, handle the paperwork and try to make a business out                                                             
of it.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI repeated her previous question to Mr.                                                                  
Kincaid.  She asked Mr. Reed if his company has any warranties on                                                               
any of the used mobile homes they sell.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. REED answered in the negative.  Their paperwork stipulates that                                                             
the home is sold without guarantee/warranty.  There is a comment on                                                             
the contract which says that the appliances will be working at the                                                              
day of closing; they do not warranty that the appliances will work                                                              
the next day.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked how long he has been in this                                                                     
business.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. REED replied he has been selling mobile homes in Anchorage                                                                  
since 1985.  In response to Representative Murkowski's further                                                                  
question, he confirmed they had had no claims on their business.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1650                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BEN MARSH, Executive Secretary, Alaska Manufactured Housing                                                                     
Association (AMHA) testified next via teleconference from                                                                       
Anchorage.  The AMHA is an association of businesses that includes                                                              
[mobile home] dealers and mobile home courts.  Mr. Marsh personally                                                             
does not own anything, does not sell mobile homes, and does not own                                                             
any mobile home courts.  He works for the association and reports                                                               
the sense of the association in accordance with the instructions he                                                             
receives.  At the association's April 15 [1999] meeting, it adopted                                                             
a resolution indicating, first, that the association did support                                                                
and had requested HB 436 because it was felt in 1996 that there was                                                             
no regulatory or control agency overseeing mobile home dealers.                                                                 
Mr. Marsh noted there is a great deal of control and oversight for                                                              
real estate licensees but he indicated there was no such control                                                                
over mobile home dealers because mobile homes are not real estate.                                                              
Mobile homes are quite different in the sense that a loan on a                                                                  
mobile home is not guaranteed with a deed of trust.  Mr. Marsh                                                                  
commented a chattel mortgage is used instead, although he is not                                                                
very knowledgeable about that.  Mr. Marsh said it was felt at that                                                              
time [1996], and he guesses the association still feels the same                                                                
way, that there needs to be someplace a person who feels wronged in                                                             
some way can resort to.  The bond would serve that purpose; it                                                                  
would guarantee ethics and honesty on the part of the dealer.  They                                                             
recognize, and think everyone does, that there is nothing saying                                                                
"Joe Blow can't come in off the street and make himself into a                                                                  
mobile home dealer by putting an ad in the paper and he may not                                                                 
know a dog-darn thing about selling mobile homes or protecting                                                                  
buyers."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1800                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH said he knows these gentlemen present do; they protect                                                                
the buyers because they are experienced, but there are no                                                                       
requirements for experience, education, or any knowledge of the                                                                 
field.  Therefore, AMHA thought it was wise to have such                                                                        
protection.  Mr. Marsh indicated the bond is a consumer protection                                                              
device, it is not intended to penalize dealers in any way.  The                                                                 
April 15 resolution says it is resolved that AMHA opposes the                                                                   
adoption of HB 167.  The president of the association is there and                                                              
can elaborate.  Mr. Marsh indicated that concluded his testimony.                                                               
[The Alaska  Manufactured Housing Association resolution adopted                                                                
April 15, 1999, read:                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     WHEREAS, House Bill 436 was enacted into law in 1996 and                                                                   
     became AS 08.67.010, and was amended by HB 33, Twentieth                                                                   
     Legislature, in 1998, and                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     WHEREAS, AS 08.67.010 sets forth the requirements for                                                                      
     registration of Mobile Home Dealers, including                                                                             
     application, bond, and fee, and                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     WHEREAS, AS 08.67.010 was enacted into law as a consumer                                                                   
     protection measure, since mobile home dealers were not                                                                     
     regulated nor licensed as real estate licensed agents are                                                                  
     required to be, and                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     WHEREAS, Alaska Manufactured Housing Association,                                                                          
     speaking for the mobile home industry, asked for and                                                                       
     supported HB 436 as originally adopted, and                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     WHEREAS, HB 167 has been introduced in the current                                                                         
     legislative session, and would exempt mobile home dealers                                                                  
     selling used units only from the requirements of AS                                                                        
     08.67.010 and,                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     WHEREAS, enactment of HB 167 would removed important                                                                       
     consumer protection features from the law,                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     NOW, THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED, that AMHA opposes the                                                                       
     adoption of HB 167.]                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1882                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE questioned if the association had heard                                                                    
complaints from people "sort of stuck with bad products" regarding                                                              
the used mobile homes.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH replied they have not.  He doesn't think the association                                                              
is the place where someone would make such a complaint.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE wondered if Mr. Marsh had heard of anything or                                                             
any anecdotal evidence, et cetera, from the association members.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH answered he has not; there has been no such report made                                                               
to him.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HARRIS noted the AMHA resolution says that HB 167                                                                
would remove important consumer protection features from the law                                                                
and it does not sound like the consumer has had many complaints                                                                 
over these years regarding mobile homes.  Representative Harris                                                                 
asked Mr. Marsh to elaborate on what kind of consumer protections                                                               
would be removed.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH responded it may be that the consumer protections which                                                               
are built into the law have headed off complaints from buyers.  He                                                              
noted that buyers of mobile home are in many cases, he thinks,                                                                  
unsophisticated and the only source of their loan is the seller.                                                                
Mr. Marsh doesn't know if there has been any occasion where people                                                              
have been unhappy with their purchases or not.  The purpose of HB
436 was to prevent such problems.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 2018                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG noted there are apparently 14 licensees; he                                                                   
questioned how many are members of AMHA.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH replied that four [mobile home] dealers are association                                                               
members.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID commented that his company is a member as well,                                                                     
bringing the total to five.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned if they were all present and Mr. Marsh                                                             
could count them.  The chairman confirmed it is Mr. Marsh's                                                                     
testimony that five mobile home dealers are members of AMHA.  He                                                                
questioned if those five mobile home dealers sell new homes, used                                                               
homes or a combination.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH answered that the latest member is (indisc.), it is                                                                   
basically a used dealer.  Mr. Marsh noted it is Mr. Kincaid.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID commented he had just joined again.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned if Mr. Kincaid had voted on the April                                                              
15 resolution.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID indicated he had not been present for that meeting                                                                  
because it had been his wife's birthday.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO commented to Mr. Marsh that he would read the                                                             
actual statutory language regarding the bond and the action on the                                                              
bond [AS 08.67.050 and .060].  Representative Halcro noted, "It                                                                 
talks about committing fraud or making fraudulent representations                                                               
in the course of doing business as a dealer, the person may bring                                                               
an action in the appropriate court against the dealer and upon the                                                              
bond."  Therefore, if a person is selling used mobile homes with no                                                             
stated or implied warranty, Representative Halcro concluded there                                                               
is really no way a person could be making fraudulent representation                                                             
or committing fraud.  He asked Mr. Marsh to speak to this point.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH replied he could not speak to that point.  Representative                                                             
Halcro is speaking of policies the dealers themselves have; Mr.                                                                 
Marsh is only the association secretary and he just views the                                                                   
meetings of the members, he does not get involved in the members'                                                               
actions.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2190                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MAC CAREY, President, Alaska Manufactured Housing Association;                                                                  
President, Carey Homes, Incorporated, testified next via                                                                        
teleconference from Anchorage in opposition to HB 167.  Mr. Carey                                                               
indicated his main reason for opposing the legislation is that it                                                               
pretty much eliminates the whole reason why the original law came                                                               
into being.  He noted Carey Homes was established in 1952; he has                                                               
been president for the past nine years.  Carey Homes is a fixed                                                                 
location where people can view new homes.  Mr. Carey said he                                                                    
probably has a very large stock of used homes at any given time -                                                               
they sell quite a few used homes.  He indicated people find it easy                                                             
to locate and contact his business, and have known the business for                                                             
quite some time.  Mr. Carey noted he is also somewhat associated                                                                
with Glencaren Court ["Glencaren Mobile Home Court"] and Nanook                                                                 
Mobile Home Court.  He indicated he has acted as the assistant                                                                  
manager or property manager for Nanook Mobile Home Court for quite                                                              
some time.  Mr. Carey commented these places are pretty easy for an                                                             
individual to seek out if he/she has complaints and, yes, they have                                                             
heard of quite a few complaints in the past.  Since the legislation                                                             
was passed they have not heard as many complaints, simply because                                                               
it is very easy to convey to someone that there is a bond a person                                                              
can attach to.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY noted the complaints range from earnest money held to                                                                 
unpaid taxes to misrepresentation.  He does not remember the topic                                                              
of warranty being the big issue of the time in the conception of HB
436 because, as was mentioned, it is usually the new homes that                                                                 
have warranties, not necessarily the pre-owned homes.  The big                                                                  
thing was the accountability of the sales representative.  The                                                                  
other side of that is to be able to obtain such a bond.  Someone                                                                
has to be in pretty good standing before an insurance company would                                                             
actually issue the bond.  Currently, Carey Homes pays $1,500 a year                                                             
for its bond, and it does not feel it is a big stumbling block for                                                              
someone to go into business to sell pre-owned homes.  For the most                                                              
part, someone can do this straight out of his/her house with a home                                                             
phone number, a couple signs and some "yellow pages" advertising.                                                               
In some cases, a person could only have business cards.  Mr. Carey                                                              
said probably the biggest concern is when people close cash                                                                     
transactions in their own offices.  It is true, "buyer beware," but                                                             
Mr. Carey said they believe consumer protection ought to be out                                                                 
there.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 2427                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO noted he would put the same question to Mr.                                                               
Carey he had put to Mr. Marsh.  He commented, "The statute says                                                                 
that if the dealer commits fraud or is guilty of making fraudulent                                                              
representations, the consumer can take the dealer to court and                                                                  
force action upon the bond.  But if you're selling a used product                                                               
that you have no warranty stated or implied, ... in my mind there'd                                                             
be no way for fraudulent representation if there's no warranty on                                                               
the thing.  Can you speak to that?"                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY answered, "Sure.  You know, we can't take for granted                                                                 
there won't be any warranty.  There may not be a warranty according                                                             
to the purchase agreement but a used home is a used home..."                                                                    
[TESTIMONY INTERRUPTED BY TAPE CHANGE]                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 99-45, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY continued, "...(indisc.) but the bigger issue is there                                                                
could be $2,000 worth of taxes owed, there could be a title that                                                                
they haven't - that they didn't produce.  And all these things are                                                              
very, very important."                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO noted Mr. Carey had mentioned he was aware of                                                             
complaints.  He asked Mr. Carey to somewhat summarize those                                                                     
complaints and perhaps speak to the committee about who those                                                                   
complaints were directed at.  Representative Halcro questioned if                                                               
it was Mr. Carey's customers complaining or someone else's.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0055                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY responded he most certainly does not "have any wings on                                                               
his back;" he would be lying if he said he had not had a customer                                                               
call him on an issue or two.  Mr. Carey noted they do try to                                                                    
correct anything they do have out there.  He is sure anyone in                                                                  
business does have a customer who calls after the fact; the                                                                     
business does have to take care of these customers.  However, in                                                                
response to who these customers call upon, Mr. Carey said some of                                                               
these individuals are not in practice today; some are, but not                                                                  
necessarily in this room today.  With the caveat that when someone                                                              
calls or comes into the office, only one side of the story is being                                                             
heard, Mr. Carey noted earnest money is a very common complaint.                                                                
He added that taxes is a very important issue, as he thinks                                                                     
everyone there would agree, because the Municipality of Anchorage                                                               
["city"] doesn't even file UCC [Uniform Commercial Code] liens to                                                               
record their taxes more often then not.  He indicated two women had                                                             
"mentioned just such" at the recent AMHA meeting.  Mr. Carey noted                                                              
there are any number of questions on the titling.  It is true that                                                              
DMV did not title for a short period of time but it does title                                                                  
presently; Mr. Carey noted it is very common for him to receive                                                                 
calls from people who say they do not have a title and who were                                                                 
told there isn't a title.  Mr. Carey indicated this was the result                                                              
of a very unknowledgeable individual handling the transaction, and                                                              
these people are stuck with a $30,000-$40,0000 home they cannot                                                                 
sell because they do not have title.  He commented these people                                                                 
have to go through the procedure of title search, et cetera.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0194                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG mentioned the committee would be hearing from Ms.                                                             
Reardon and indicated she would be asked this next question as well                                                             
[Catherine Reardon, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,                                                               
Department of Commerce and Economic Development].  The chairman                                                                 
questioned if Mr. Carey thinks AMHA can justify the existence of                                                                
Chapter 67 [AS 08.67] and this particular licensure in "this light                                                              
of cost reduction."  The chairman asked Mr. Carey if he thinks it                                                               
has done its intended purpose, noting he takes it that Mr. Carey                                                                
opposes the statute's repeal.  The chairman clarified he was                                                                    
referring to the legislation enacted by HB 436, and questioning if                                                              
it has done any good.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY indicated he is very much opposed to the repeal of this                                                               
chapter.  It was a goodwill gesture on the association's part,                                                                  
which really represents the largest portion of their industry, to                                                               
take it upon themselves to contact the state to improve their own                                                               
industry in the interests of consumer protection.  He noted they                                                                
thought it was a good bill then and they feel it is a good bill now                                                             
[HB 436, AS 08.67].                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COWDERY, the bill sponsor, informed Chairman                                                                     
Rokeberg he had to leave to attend another meeting.  He noted he                                                                
doesn't think he can add much to this and hopes the committee moves                                                             
the legislation.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG confirmed there were no further questions for Mr.                                                             
Carey, noting there is one more witness.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 0322                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
WILLIAM FERGUSON, Owner, Alaskan Discount Mobile Homes, testified                                                               
next via teleconference from Anchorage in support of HB 167.  His                                                               
business is currently in its third year of operation in Anchorage.                                                              
They strictly sell used mobile homes and they broker them.  He                                                                  
indicated he feels the existing law hurts the largest group of                                                                  
employment providers in the public sector, small business, while at                                                             
the same time greatly enhancing larger businesses' abilities to                                                                 
control monopolized bargaining.  That begs the question, "What                                                                  
about the consumer?"  Mr. Ferguson said that the bond is in favor                                                               
of the state.  It should be apparent to voters and legislators                                                                  
alike that the law in its present form is just for the benefit of                                                               
large businesses through the elimination of competition.  Mr.                                                                   
Ferguson said that he enjoys competition because it keeps him and                                                               
his sales staff sharp.  No claims have been filed since the law was                                                             
enacted.  He informed the committee he knew of two businesses which                                                             
have failed as well as those jobs the businesses provided.  The law                                                             
as it exists, has not helped and should be changed, as HB 167                                                                   
suggests.  Mr. Ferguson emphasized that protection for the consumer                                                             
is provided in the court system.   He said, "A $50,000 bond for                                                                 
taxes, I mean the average tax on a mobile home, for a used one,                                                                 
a[n] older one is what - $300 a year."  Mr. Ferguson did not                                                                    
believe a $50,000 bond was necessary or relative.  As Mr. Kincaid                                                               
pointed out, all of their documents specify, "as is", "where is",                                                               
"no warranty written or implied," in more than one location.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0522                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned the cost of Mr. Ferguson's bond.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. FERGUSON answered that the cost of his bond is $2,400 per year.                                                             
He noted that he has not been in business long enough nor is his                                                                
business large enough to receive a lower rate.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG also asked the cost of Mr. Kincaid's and Mr.                                                                  
Reed's bonds.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID stated that his bond costs $1,500 per year.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. REED thinks his bond cost is quoted at $2,000.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. KINCAID commented, "If you look at the licensees you won't find                                                             
too many people licensed and bonded."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG announced that concluded the teleconference                                                                   
testimony and invited Ms. Reardon forward.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0611                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CATHERINE REARDON, Director, Division of Occupational Licensing,                                                                
Department of Commerce and Economic Development came forward.  She                                                              
informed the committee the division administers this licensing                                                                  
program directly; it is one of the programs without a licensing                                                                 
board.  The program has been in effect for only two years.  Ms.                                                                 
Reardon explained that this law went into effect as the result of                                                               
legislation that passed very rapidly; she had not had the                                                                       
opportunity to become as familiar with some of the issues.  She                                                                 
commented that although it is true that the bond is in favor of the                                                             
state, her interpretation of the statute is that the bond is for                                                                
judgments against the licensee.  It is one of the two things that                                                               
the bond is for, judgments entered against the applicant.  Ms.                                                                  
Reardon assumes that to mean that the state holds the bond, but                                                                 
would give it to someone who proves that there has been a judgment                                                              
- that the court has rendered a judgement against the dealer.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0720                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON expressed concern with a program that would be left                                                                 
with four licensees.  The program would still operate under the                                                                 
state's self-sufficiency mandate.  She explained this is the reason                                                             
there is a zero fiscal note.  The division's costs would not be                                                                 
affected; the same amount of revenue would be raised from fewer                                                                 
people.  Ms. Reardon informed the committee that the cost to                                                                    
operate the program during fiscal year (FY) 1999 to date, April 1,                                                              
was $500.  Last year, FY 1998 , the program's first year, the cost                                                              
was $4,900.  However, she noted that ordinarily there are higher                                                                
costs the first year because staff time is spent doing                                                                          
applications, advertising, et cetera.  Although Ms. Reardon                                                                     
expected the costs to remain low - around $1,000 to $2,000 - the                                                                
exception would occur when someone appealed a license denial or                                                                 
action was taken against a person.  This results in legal costs                                                                 
which could become a pressing issue since there would only be four                                                              
people to spread the costs among.  On the other hand, 14 people to                                                              
spread the costs among is not very many either.  Ms. Reardon noted                                                              
that if a new mobile home has a warranty, the owner of that mobile                                                              
home would have less need for the bond than the owner of a used                                                                 
mobile home.  Ms. Reardon commented that if there is not a purpose                                                              
for the bond, perhaps no one should have to obtain one; new mobile                                                              
homes are probably sold with warranties.  On the other hand,                                                                    
perhaps the purpose of the bond was aimed more at title and escrow                                                              
theft.  In that case, Ms. Reardon did not know whether the new or                                                               
used mobile homes posed the most risk.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0891                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI asked if the division managed any other                                                                
licenses with as few as four licensees.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON replied no.  There are two programs with fewer than 20                                                              
licensees.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MURKOWSKI commented, then, this would be a departure                                                             
to maintain something for so few entities.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON replied yes, although a program without a board that                                                                
has fewer than 20 licensees is almost the same.  She pointed out                                                                
that it is dependent upon whether there is legal action.  She noted                                                             
that not having a license is a Class A misdemeanor.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 0940                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO noted mention of the title and indicated it                                                               
is possible that is where some of the problems may occur when a                                                                 
mobile home is sold.  He questioned that when a dealer sells a                                                                  
mobile home, the dealer would not receive payment until the bank                                                                
receives the title, if the sale is financed.  He asked if there are                                                             
normal checks and balances in place there.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON said she was not certain that there are.  If a bank is                                                              
loaning money, the bank would look out for its own interests and                                                                
would probably provide checks and balances.  The testimony seems to                                                             
indicate that in the mobile home industry there are cash                                                                        
transactions.  She compared it more to buying an expensive used                                                                 
car.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG clarified the testimony was that on used mobile                                                               
homes most are either self-financed or cash [transactions].  That                                                               
means they have separate escrow accounts and there is a promissory                                                              
note involved in the chattel mortgage.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HALCRO questioned the average cost of a used mobile                                                              
home.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. CAREY said that the typical mobile home in Anchorage, a 1976-                                                               
78 model, would sell for about an average of $22,000.  Of course                                                                
there are mobile homes at the lower and higher ends of the scale.                                                               
In response to the chairman's question, Mr. Carey said an average                                                               
mobile home is roughly 900 square feet.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1065                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. REARDON commented she is unsure of the committee's intent.  If                                                              
HB 167 is not going to move out of the committee that day, the                                                                  
other two pages of statute could be reviewed to determine that they                                                             
cover what was intended.  Ms. Reardon indicated that perhaps an                                                                 
attorney could determine if the bond is protecting what it is                                                                   
intended to protect, if there is a concern regarding whether the                                                                
bond is really there to cover items like escrow and title problems.                                                             
She further indicated it might be fine, since the division has                                                                  
never had an action.  Ms. Reardon explained the division's job with                                                             
the existing law is not to take away a license from anyone who                                                                  
might be operating unfairly.  The division's job is simply to hold                                                              
the bond and give it over once a court judgment has been provided.                                                              
Therefore, there has not been much exploration under what                                                                       
conditions someone might lose in court and the bond would have to                                                               
be given over.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG asked how many mobile home dealers there are in                                                               
Alaska.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON answered that she only knows how many mobile home                                                                   
dealers are licensed, the 13 or 14 which have been discussed here.                                                              
Noting the division had done newspaper advertising, she strongly                                                                
suspects there are people out there who are not licensed.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1142                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented that testimony on HB 33 [Twentieth                                                                  
Legislature] when they received the exemption from this indicated                                                               
there are many who are not registered.  He asked how many people                                                                
had licenses in the first year.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON said that she believes there were under five - two or                                                               
three.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented the division spent $4,900 and had two                                                               
or three licensees in 1998.  He asked if that was correct.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON said, "I believe, at the end of '98, that sounds likely                                                             
to me; [a] $500 license fee."                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated he appreciated Ms. Reardon noting how                                                               
little was spent, but the division had not done anything.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON pointed out that this fiscal year would be the year in                                                              
which 10 more are licensed by only spending $500.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1200                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE CISSNA asked if Ms. Reardon saw value to licensing                                                               
the mobile home dealers.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON indicated her initial orientation had been in favor of                                                              
eliminating the licensing program.  Although after hearing the                                                                  
testimony, she is no longer sure.  She said that she always wishes                                                              
that there are consumer groups to be at the table to testify as to                                                              
whether the protection is desired or necessary, but she knows that                                                              
is not really practical.  Ms. Reardon concluded, "But I kind of                                                                 
feel like either don't have any licensing or have licensing for all                                                             
the mobile home dealers."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG commented he thinks that is really the primary                                                                
issue before the committee.  He believes that passage of HB 167                                                                 
would destroy the entire license; then the issue becomes whether                                                                
the program should even exist.  The chairman indicated he had had                                                               
some question about HB 436, the existing law, when it originally                                                                
passed.  He noted he is concerned, particularly because of past                                                                 
testimony that very few people had signed up, although it sounds                                                                
like more are.  The chairman asked if there have been any                                                                       
complaints filed or claims against the bonds.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON stated that they have not received any judgments to pay                                                             
the bond on.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG questioned that there is no sunset provision on                                                               
this chapter.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. REARDON said that is correct because only licensing board                                                                   
programs have sunsets.  The programs the division manages are never                                                             
examined.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG informed the teleconference participants, the                                                                 
committee and the committee, that he would give everyone the                                                                    
weekend to justify the existence of the entire chapter.  House Bill                                                             
167, if passed, would destroy the licensing.  The chairman                                                                      
indicated the teleconference participants should work together to                                                               
assist the committee on this issue.  If this issue cannot be                                                                    
settled by the committee's next meeting on Monday afternoon [April                                                              
26], the sponsor would be asked to modify the bill and repeal the                                                               
entire chapter because that has the same effect.  Chairman Rokeberg                                                             
questioned if the teleconference participants understood.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. MARSH answered that they understand very well.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIRMAN ROKEBERG indicated he would appreciate any other comments                                                              
from the committee members and hopes the sponsor's representative                                                               
understands what the chairman is attempting to do here.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. TORKELSON indicated he believes the sponsor would be in                                                                     
agreement with "shaving the whole head." [HB 167 WAS HELD]                                                                      

Document Name Date/Time Subjects