Legislature(2007 - 2008)BUTROVICH 205
02/18/2008 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB253 | |
| HB165 | |
| SB176 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| += | HB 165 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| *+ | SB 176 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| = | SB 253 | ||
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
HB 165-BIG GAME GUIDES AND TRANSPORTERS
CHAIR HUGGINS announced the consideration of HB 165.
3:47:37 PM
REPRESENTATIVE GABRIELLE LeDOUX, Alaska State Legislature,
sponsor of HB 165, reminded members that it was heard last year
and held in order to give the Department of Law (DOL) and
Department of Public Safety (DPS) an opportunity to weigh in.
She reported that DOL said the bill doesn't raise any issues for
that department, and although DPS was notified of this hearing,
there was no response; she surmised no news is good news.
REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX recapped that in 1996 legislation was
passed to define big game hunters, outfitters, and transporters
and to provide regulations for licensing and other
considerations. However, it had no provision for a person who
simply wants to rent a cabin to people who may or may not be
hunting.
REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX pointed out that many rural Alaskans have
cabins that are empty for part of the year and this bill allows
them to rent their cabins without falling into any of the
regulations found in the 1996 statute. Rural residents have few
economic opportunities, and this provides one. She added that
members of the Big Game Commercial Services Board have worked
with her office to craft a bill that protects their interests
while allowing others to do business. She deferred to Suzanne
Hancock, who'd worked on the bill with the constituent whose e-
mail brought this issue to their attention.
3:49:55 PM
SUZANNE HANCOCK, Staff to Representative LeDoux, noted the
aforementioned constituent was on teleconference. She said
others including outdoor groups have weighed in on behalf of
individuals who wish to simply rent out a cabin without being
present or providing accommodations or acting as an outfitter or
guide.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if anyone opposed this bill.
MS. HANCOCK replied this only takes care of cabins on private
land and state and federal cabins on state and federal land; the
one individual she heard from wanted the bill to be expanded to
cover private cabins on leased land. The main reason that was
decided against is because several groups such as the Big Game
Commercial Services Board remembered that is what led to this
law in the first place. In the 1980s some people falsely claimed
to be outfitters and it sometimes involved leased property.
Adding leased land would muddy a simple situation.
SENATOR WAGONER asked if the person who was renting out the
cabins was a transporter or guide.
MS. HANCOCK answered no.
SENATOR WAGONER went on to ask if he had a business license and
his business was renting cabins or hotel rooms, what current law
prevents him from renting that cabin or hotel room to a hunter.
MS. HANCOCK offered to find out, saying it might take a minute.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how renting out a cabin differs from renting
out a motel room.
MS. HANCOCK responded that Mr. Metzger hadn't thought there was
anything wrong with renting his cabin until the troopers showed
up and said he wasn't supposed to do that.
3:53:40 PM
RICK METZGER, rural property owner from Kodiak Island, specified
that he supports HB 165 and participated in developing HB 165.
He explained that he hadn't been renting cabins for several
years, because in November 2006 he was shut down by Kodiak
enforcement. He was told because the word "usually" was removed
from the definition of "field" in August 2006 and by renting a
cabin in an area not associated with a city, town, or village,
he was in violation of the definition of "field."
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI cited AS 08.54.790, saying there is no
"usually" associated with it. He asked where that ties in so
that a person cannot rent out a cabin or house.
MR. METZGER referred to the outfitting portion of the "field"
definition, saying it had some mention of facilities, but he
didn't have it in front of him. Noting it got confusing and
convoluted, Mr. Metzger added that he had a state business
license and lots of correspondence from the Division of
Occupational Licensing saying it was okay to rent the cabins
until the time the troopers came and interpreted it differently.
In response to Senator Wagoner, he said he isn't a transporter
or big game guide, just a property owner. The violation was
because he isn't in an area associated with a city, town, or
village.
CHAIR HUGGINS apologized for the bureaucracy.
MR. METZGER added this was one opportunity for folks who live in
desirable hunting areas to make a modest income from their
property and he had lost that opportunity.
JIM PETERSON voiced support for HB 165, noting that he is one of
the few people who live in Deadman Bay in the summertime and
that he has known Rick Metzger since 1965. He said Mr. Metzger
was providing a service so that modest-income people could rent
a cabin and enjoy the beauty of southern Kodiak Island without
hiring a guide. It brings joy to people and he saw nothing wrong
with what he was doing.
3:59:21 PM
ROBERT FITHIAN, Executive Director, Alaska Professional Hunters
Association, said his group supports the bill, which fixes a
loophole that prevents people like Mr. Metzger from doing what
is right.
REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX, in response to Chair Huggins, noted she'd
asked staff to distribute a letter that says the 1996 law
changed the definition of "field" by taking out "usually."
Although she didn't know whether including "usually" made a
difference, she surmised because of the change in the law the
Department of Public Safety (DPS) enforced it more stringently.
Prior to that, Mr. Metzger could rent his cabins, but afterwards
he couldn't because under the regulations this area is outside a
city or a township.
SENATOR GREEN asked if the bill even covers Mr. Metzger, since
language on lines 5-6 it says "with the intent to receive
compensation, only accommodations to a big game hunter".
4:02:55 PM
REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX referred to paragraph (9), which adds new
language, "excluding the provision of accommodations by a person
described in AS 08.54.875". She said this allows someone like
Mr. Metzger to provide services without being considered an
outfitter.
SENATOR GREEN again read from line 6 that said "the provisions
of this chapter do not apply to a person providing for
compensation...only accommodations to a big game hunter in the
field as" and asked whether that was in essence a double
negative.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said he thought 08.54.720(a)(11) said "it
is unlawful for a person without a current registered guide
outfitter license to knowingly outfit the big game hunt, provide
outfitting services, and so on." The definition of "outfit" in
AS 08.54.790(9) means "to provide for compensation, or with the
intent to receive compensation, services, supplies or facilities
to a big game hunter in the field."
Removing "usually" changed the definition of "field" slightly
and he agreed with Representative LeDoux that it probably didn't
matter. But the troopers interpreted that to mean if someone is
"in the field", it is unlawful to do this and he thought the
bill fixed the problem.
SENATOR GREEN asked where the bill fixes it for someone who
isn't hunting.
4:05:16 PM
SENATOR STEVENS replied that situation is already okay.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI concurred, adding this bill only pertains
to big game hunters.
SENATOR GREEN recalled, however, that the problem arose when a
nonhunter was renting the cabin.
SENATOR STEVENS requested confirmation that a cabin can already
be rented to someone who isn't hunting, but that the problem
arises when the person is a big game hunter.
REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX affirmed that, apologizing if she'd
indicated otherwise. If it was a photographer, there'd be no
problem, but it becomes a crime if someone has a gun with the
intention of shooting something.
SENATOR GREEN asked if that applies even to a casual hunter, not
a guide, outfitter, and so on.
REPRESENTATIVE LeDOUX said that is the way the law is being
interpreted and enforced now.
SENATOR STEDMAN noted line 9 speaks to a waiver for state and
federal cabins on state or federal land. He asked what the
state policy is for renting state cabins to a big game hunter.
4:06:26 PM
MS. HANCOCK answered, because many times those cabins are rented
to hunters, this language was meant to clarify that. She said
that a person shooting rabbits or deer can still be considered a
big game hunter.
SENATOR STEDMAN asked if the state is renting cabins to
registered guides.
MS. HANCOCK replied she didn't know. She also didn't know if a
mechanism exists to allow the state to determine whether someone
renting a state cabin is a licensed guide.
4:07:20 PM
PAUL JOHNSON, Chair, Big Game Commercial Services Board, said
this goes back to 1990, when a task force was put together to
define "transporters and guides" and it also defined "field or
cabins" and what would be allowed. At that time it said through
regulation, not statute, a person had to have a transporter or
big game license to do those kinds of activities and probably
Mr. Metzger's situation was not considered. It has nothing to do
with things like photography; it's just if you're taking people
out for big game hunting.
He further explained that the language was put back into statute
when the board was sunsetted in 1996; prior to that, it was in
regulation. When the Big Game Commercial Services Board was
reauthorized last year that language was left in statute and not
put in regulation, so the board couldn't act on it in dealing
with Mr. Metzger.
MR. JOHNSON clarified that it wasn't that Mr. Metzger couldn't
do what he was doing, but he would have had to get a transporter
license, which Mr. Metzger felt was unnecessary. The board
agreed and asked Mr. Metzger to work with a board member to
assist in changing the statute. The bill is a solid compromise
on who must have a transporter license and who doesn't and
allows Mr. Metzger to do what he was doing.
4:10:50 PM
MR. JOHNSON said the reason the Department of Public Safety got
involved is because when the board was restarted, it wasn't
paying any attention to any of those rules and regulations from
1996 and when this statute came through, it came to the surface.
SENATOR GREEN asked why leased lands weren't included in the
bill.
MR. JOHNSON replied that those issues all came up at the
original 1990 task force when people interested in game wanted
to go in every direction. Therefore the department felt that
people with leased land should have a $250-transporter license
and make annual reports so everyone would "have a feel" for what
was going on. The board felt that was an intrusion upon private
land owners and that they shouldn't be included in the process
and he agreed that it would muddy the waters.
SENATOR GREEN asked if Mr. Metzger had been on leased land, the
board wouldn't have had the same interest.
MR. JOHNSON replied probably; the board was mainly interested in
how private land owners are treated versus people with leased
land. Having leased lands included in the provisions would cause
problems, he said, and federal lands have always had their
public use cabins.
SENATOR GREEN asked who would be the typical owner of the leased
land.
MR. JOHNSON replied the state.
SENATOR GREEN asked if it is okay to have a state cabin to lease
but not a privately-owned cabin on state land.
MR. JOHNSON replied that most state/federal cabins can't legally
be leased to people in commercial services.
4:13:38 PM
SENATOR GREEN asked if he risks being caught if he does rent one
of those cabins.
MR. JOHNSON replied that he would risk being caught because his
permit states specifically that is not allowed.
CHAIR HUGGINS said some people have cabins in preserves around a
park and asked what that land status is.
4:14:13 PM
MR. JOHNSON replied for instance, that Dry Bay Unit 5 in Yakutat
is on preserved land and the guide there has a guide license. If
he wanted to transport off that land, he would need to get a
transporter license. This unit has leased cabins on it and the
commercial entities using them need to be licensed.
SENATOR McGUIRE said in 1990 the issue was abuse by the big game
guides some of whom transported and guided without any control
or regulation. The legislature tried to identify two pathways to
oversee that. She asked why, philosophically, the state would
say someone who is leasing out a cabin on state land that has
been in their family for 50 years has to have a transporter
license; but seven miles away someone else who has had a
privately owned cabin for two years would not have to have that
transporter license.
4:15:52 PM
MR. JOHNSON replied philosophically it boils down to the fact
that the state leases with DNR vary from 30, 60, 90 and 180 days
and discusses whether the cabin is a tent platform. If one would
look at an advertised activity on big game in Alaska, they would
be amazed at how many people are trying to work around the
state's present laws. For now, the concern is that people who
have private lands can proceed without having to go through the
state's bureaucracy.
4:16:59 PM
SENATOR WAGONER said he has a lease on state property along with
a lot of other people and it's called a duck shack. He thought
they were precluded in the lease from some uses, because it's
primarily for seasonal use. Some commercial fishermen wanted to
rent it from him, but they couldn't. He said the state would
like to get rid of all the cabins on leased property.
4:17:59 PM
MR. JOHNSON commented that he also has a Forest Service cabin
that has been in the family for many generations. But it will be
burned down at the point of his son's death. The permit is very
strict and doesn't allow him to use it for commercial purposes
at all.
SENATOR McGUIRE remarked that only 1 percent of all land in
Alaska is in private ownership. She remembers going to a duck
shack and it is sad that her child would not have that same
opportunity.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked who this bill applies to.
MR. JOHNSON replied it is only for people who are in the
commercial aspect of big game. If you are making money off of
big game, the state wants to know what you are doing.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what percentage of big game hunts
involves Alaskans as opposed to people from outside Alaska.
MR. JOHNSON replied that it varies throughout the state. He
understands from Mr. Metzger that over half of his clients are
residents taking advantage of the permit draw in Kodiak for bear
and deer. But in many areas of the state it is 100 percent non-
residents.
4:20:54 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN went back to line 9 that deals with cabins on
state and federal land saying that commercial guides can't rent
those - in the Tongass for instance. He asked why the state and
federal issues are in the bill.
MR. JOHNSON answered even though the federal government never
followed them until 1990; the state statutes said if someone
rented one, they were supposed to be a transporter. It was never
enforced. He said the only one it was enforced upon was Mr.
Metzger.
SENATOR STEDMAN asked if the definition of "state" was broad
enough to include municipalities.
MR. JOHNSON replied yes; municipalities would be covered under
the definition of "field."
4:22:45 PM
SENATOR GREEN asked if Senator Wagoner could take friends to his
duck shack and could they shoot from there even if they don't
bring the food and drink.
SENATOR WAGONER replied yes, but he can't receive money for it.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if a transporter flew a hunter in to Mr.
Metzger's lake-side cabin would this provision apply.
MR. JOHNSTON replied no - if the hunter was flown in and he was
not compensating the pilot (under the definition of
"compensation", which is more than in-kind).
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what if he paid a transporter to fly him
out.
MR. JOHNSON replied if the transporter used a point-to-point
rate, a transporter license would not be needed. But if the
transporter was charging for his knowledge of where to take the
hunter, then he would be selling a hunt and then he needs to
have a transporter license. If the cabin belongs to Senator
Wagoner who is not charging for its use, nothing is required.
They are trying to legitimize a situation like Mr. Metzger's
where he is advertising and getting compensation for the use of
a cabin.
4:25:50 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what if the assistant guide were there that
got off at the lake and stayed in the cabin to chase a brown
bear with Senator Stevens.
MR. JOHNSON replied if the assistance guide was operating
without a registered guide or master guide, there would be some
complications.
CHAIR HUGGINS instructed assume all three were there.
MR. JOHNSON responded then the hunter has a contract with the
registered guide and he would be good to go. He explained that
Mr. Metzger was acting legally, but he needed to have a
transporter license. This bill says that now he doesn't need to
do that.
4:26:55 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI said it is virtually impossible to get a
state cabin in Southcentral to recreate and asked if this would
let big game hunters rent out state cabins.
MR. JOHNSON replied no; DNR doesn't allow that. Those cabins are
for public use, not commercial use.
4:27:37 PM
SENATOR WAGONER moved to report HB 165 from committee with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s). There
being no objections and HB 165 was moved out of the Senate
Resources Standing Committee.
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