Legislature(2005 - 2006)
05/05/2005 04:55 PM Senate FIN
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB61 | |
| HB149 | |
| HB169 | |
| HB211 | |
| HB225 | |
| HB123 | |
| HB215 | |
| SB46 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE CS FOR CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 149(JUD)
"An Act relating to controlled substances regarding the crimes
of manslaughter and misconduct involving a controlled
substance; relating to the manufacture of methamphetamine and
to the sale, possession, and delivery of certain substances
and precursors used in the manufacture of methamphetamine;
relating to listing certain anabolic steroids as controlled
substances; relating to the listing of property that
constitutes an illegal drug manufacturing site; amending Rule
41, Alaska Rules of Criminal Procedure; and providing for an
effective date."
This was the second hearing for this bill in the Senate Finance
Committee.
Co-Chair Green asked whether the bill's sponsor or any Committee
Member desired to comment on the bill pursuant to the beginning of
public testimony. The response was in the negative. She noted that
she had been unable to be in attendance during the previous day's
hearing on the bill.
5:04:35 PM
Co-Chair Wilken noted that the primary focus of the previous day's
discussion pertained to the logbook issue. "The retailer's
standpoint" of that issue would be provided today. This would be
helpful in "filling in some of the blanks".
5:05:39 PM
GLENN PETERSON, District Manager - Anchorage District,
Carrs/Safeway Grocery Store, introduced himself.
JASON MOLTON, Loss Prevention Director, Seattle Division,
Carrs/Safeway, applauded the State's efforts to address the "very
difficult problem" of methamphetamine addiction in the State. Prior
to being Carrs/Safeway's Loss Prevention Director for the states of
Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Alaska, he had spent 30 years as a
Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). He is
"accurately aware" of the growing "problems faced by retailers as
the result of methamphetamine (meth) addiction". He is "very
attuned" to the issue at hand due to his experience at
Carrs/Safeway and his appointment to the Washington State
Governor's Council on Substance Abuse and his membership on a
variety of Washington countries' Methamphetamine Task Forces.
5:07:46 PM
Mr. Molton voiced strong support for the increased penalties
associated with meth abuse proposed in the bill; particularly for
those who show "reckless disregard for young children" by
subjecting them to meth use in their home or residence.
Mr. Molton informed the Committee that two years prior,
Carrs/Safeway took responsibility, as "a good corporate citizen",
by removing, without regulatory directive, "high theft
pseudoephedrine products", such as Sudafed, from its store shelves.
Empty packages were placed instead on the over-the-counter medicine
aisle. A person desiring to purchase that product would take that
package up to the customer service counter where a store employee
would provide the product to them. A three-box purchase limit was
also implemented.
Mr. Molton shared that this could also be characterized as an act
of self-defense as many of these products were targets of
shoplifters. This action has assisted the store in curbing its
losses, and the belief is that the action has also assisted in
reducing the precursor of methamphetamine availability.
Mr. Molton noted that Carrs/Safeway is also the largest corporate
sponsor of Meth Watch in Washington and Montana, and posters
promoting Meth Watch are displayed in all four states in which the
store operates. The belief is that the corporation's actions in
regard to both Meth Watch and the removal of the products from
store shelves have helped to reduce the meth problem in the state
of Washington. At one time Washington had "the dubious honor of
having the most meth labs in the country" with a reported high of
1,886 labs. That number was reduced to 1,339 in the year 2004 and
261 meth labs have been reported to date in 2005.
Mr. Molton disclosed however, that the cost of meth in Washington
has remained constant or is slightly lower than it was a few years
ago. Therefore, it must be assumed that the net affect of the
action has not changed the overall situation since price "is based
on the supply and demand theory of economics".
Mr. Molton directed Members to view the questdiagnostic.com
website, which depicts that "there has been an extreme increase"
each year "in the number of methamphetamine users who are being
tested in the workplace". "The problem continues unabated." Another
indicator of the growing use of meth in the state of Washington and
possibly the State of Alaska "too, were the figures checked", is
the increasing number of people who are receiving treatment through
the federal or State aid such as Medicaid. People as young as
fourteen have been treated for meth addiction. The most recent
statistics available for the state of Washington indicate that in
the year 2003, 12,000 individuals were treated for Meth addiction.
5:12:09 PM
Mr. Molton warned that Meth addiction, unlike cocaine or heroin
addiction, could not be successfully treated in a 30-day treatment
program. Meth addiction treatment is a difficult and long-term
process. "It is like a barbed hook hooked into the mouth of the
person; they simply can't get over it."
Mr. Molton shared that another indicator of meth usage is drug test
submissions. Tracking of Washington law enforcement drug test
submissions indicate that approximately 46-percent test positive
for meth. Cocaine is second at 26 percent. All the other drugs are
in the single digits. Meth is "clearly the drug of choice … its the
drug most frequently encountered by law enforcement" in Washington.
He anticipated that similar statistics would apply to Alaska.
5:13:31 PM
Mr. Molton informed the Committee that Carrs/Safeway has prepared
comments in regards to HB 149. The State of Washington Governor's
Council on Substance Abuse identified three key elements to be
addressed in the effort against meth abuse: prevention; treatment;
and law enforcement and justice. "It is a three-legged stool." HB
149 is an "excellent bill" in regards to the law enforcement and
justice component; however, absent the prevention and treatment
components the State would encounter difficulties. A lot of people
would be incarcerated, but there would be "no ability to fund
treatment and no ability to preclude them from getting into the
problem" due to a lack of prevention funding.
Mr. Molton noted that a copy of the State of Washington Governor's
Council on Substance Abuse recommendations [copy not provided] had
been provided to Co-Chair Wilken. The report might provide guidance
to the State of Alaska.
5:14:55 PM
Mr. Molton made specific suggestions to language in the bill. One
suggestion would be that the language in Sec. 3(d)(3) on page four,
beginning on line nine that would allow certain entities such as
lodges to possess more than nine gram of pseudoephedrine, be
amended to include such things as "boat orders". Carrs/Safeway and
other retailers routinely handle orders from boats in fishing
fleets that exceed the allowable 24-gram limit.
5:16:08 PM
Co-Chair Green asked whether Carrs/Safeway ships to Rural areas as
well.
Mr. Peterson affirmed.
Co-Chair Green asked whether orders shipped to Rural areas might
also exceed the limit restriction.
Mr. Peterson confirmed that such orders often exceed the limit.
Co-Chair Green understood therefore that the Rural order scenario
could be likened to the boat order situation.
5:16:40 PM
Mr. Peterson agreed. He noted that often times, boat orders are
received from vessels that spend months at sea.
Mr. Molton pointed out that an area that might not have been
discussed is relation to this bill is the consideration of the fact
that the three crimes of methamphetamine production and use,
identity thief, and mail thief "are inseparability connected". He
informed that the majority of the time "that a search warrant is
executed at the Meth production facility", such things as false
identification and counterfeit checks or information to support
such crimes are discovered.
5:17:36 PM
To that point, Mr. Molton explained that the current record keeping
system used by most major retailers is referred to as the point of
sale system. It utilizes a scanner to scan each item in the sale,
and, at the end of the transaction, money in the form of cash, a
credit card, a debit card, a gift card, an EBT card, or a check is
tendered as payment. The entirety of the transaction data is stored
in a computer and is available for retrieval in the retailer's
database for a period of ninety days. However, with extra effort,
information could be retrieved for as long as five years. Stores
also utilize digital closed circuit television and camera
surveillance to record the entrance/exit, aisle, and checkout
counter activity in its stores. It is possible that the store could
access a record of the person entering the store, choosing items
off the shelf, purchasing the items, and exiting the store.
5:19:33 PM
Mr. Molton opined that the logbook process being proposed is
unnecessary; "it is redundant", and would be an expense to
retailers. No "useful purpose beyond" the information that is
already maintained by stores "in the normal course of business"
would be provided. Stores currently comply with subpoenas and
search warrants on a regular basis, and "voluntarily provide closed
circuit television evidence routinely to law enforcement upon
request". In addition, such things as vehicle license plate numbers
of people suspected of buying "precursors for the use of
methamphetamine" are also provided to law enforcement officers
through the Carrs/Safeway's Meth Watch Program. These activities
would continue.
Mr. Molton stated that another objection to the log is in regard to
the information that would be required. It is anticipated that in
order for the log to be helpful, its information must "be sortible
in some fashion". As learned from his FBI experience, sortible
fields of information should include the purchaser's last name,
first name, middle initial, date, type and quantity of the item,
the amount of the transaction as well as the employee conducting
the transaction. This activity would extend the amount of time
required to complete the transaction beyond the typical transaction
time of less than 30 seconds. In addition, each city in Alaska
could impose its own requirements. Further compounding the burden
that would be placed on a store is the fact that each state could
establish differing requirements. The state of Oklahoma requires
that the logbook information be transmitted electronically. This
would require additional hardware and database programs.
Administration of the program across the State of Alaska and from
state-to-state could be tedious to comply with.
5:22:30 PM
Mr. Molton observed that when such rules are enacted, someone must
be responsible for verifying such things as whether retailers are
maintaining the logs properly or are not selling more than the
allowed quantities. He asked whether consideration has been
provided to the imposition of penalties for non-compliance.
Mr. Molton stated that Carrs/Safeway has "conservatively
calculated" that the cost of implementing the logbook system in its
25 stores would incur $250,000 in labor costs. Other costs would be
associated with training efforts. Additional costs would be
incurred were electronic data transmission required.
Mr. Molton reiterated the support for the proposed "stiffening of
the sentences" associated with this issue.
5:24:09 PM
Mr. Molton concluded his remarks by stating that the store would
like to work further with Representative Ramras and Senator Guess
in regards to the logbook issue.
5:24:23 PM
Co-Chair Green voiced appreciation for the "enlightening"
testimony.
Co-Chair Green asked the percentage of the State's population that
might be served by major retailers with similar scanning systems to
that utilized by Carrs/Safeway.
5:25:06 PM
Mr. Peterson expressed that it is likely that all major retailers
in the State's metropolitan areas utilize such systems. The systems
are available in its stores in communities such as Dutch Harbor and
Nome. It is questionable whether small village retailers utilize
such systems.
Co-Chair Green clarified that the gist of her question was to
determine how much redundancy might be incurred by the
implementation of the logbook. Some Members are concerned about the
logbook section of the bill. "We want to be sure we get this on its
way, but have it in a condition that is acceptable for all of us.
We certainly want to work with the sponsor as well."
Senator Olson asked whether other alternatives to the log have been
considered in the desire to track purchases.
Mr. Molton shared that programs such as the Meth Watch program are
being utilized in the State of Washington. When an individual is
observed repeatedly visiting the store and purchasing meth lab
materials such as pseudoephedrine, batteries, acetone, and coffee
filters, it is an alert that a meth lab might be functioning. In
that case, law enforcement personnel would be notified and
information such as license plate numbers and names and pictures of
the individuals would be provided. Were a subpoena or a search
warrant delivered, the store would provide the information
contained in the store's files relating to the transaction. This
"is a very viable alternative to the log".
Co-Chair Wilken thanked the gentlemen for their testimony.
Continuing he asked, with the exception of the "boat orders" and
the log issue, whether other sections of bill were acceptable.
Mr. Molton stated that other sections of the bill were acceptable.
The penalty "enhancements", specifically the ones relating to the
endangerment of those under the age of 18, "are commendable".
Senator Stedman shared that some pharmacies in his district have
also voiced concern about the log, specifically in regards to how
it would be maintained and the time that would be involved in that
process. While pharmacists are supportive of the direction of the
legislation, there is concern about its affect on "small mom and
pop" stores that might not have a sophisticated point of sale
system.
5:28:54 PM
Co-Chair Green again thanked the Carrs/Safeway representatives for
their insight on the matter. Continuing, she invited the Department
of Law and the bill's sponsor to join the discussion in order to
develop a compromise in regard to the log section of the bill. She
reiterated that several Members have voiced concern about that
issue.
Co-Chair Green, voicing an understanding of the intent of the log
requirement, asked whether methods such as the aforementioned
Carrs/Safeway Meth Watch program have been considered as
alternatives to that requirement.
5:30:12 PM
DEAN GUANELI, Chief Assistant Attorney General, Legal Services
Section, Criminal Division, Office of the Attorney General,
Department of Law stated that the bill would only require that the
purchase of the specified products must be logged. While other
states, including the state of Washington, require the logging of
other "suspicious transactions", such burden would not be imposed
on retailers by this bill. Carrs/Safeway operates stores in other
states whose requirements are more labor intensive than those being
proposed in HB 149. It should be noted that the restrictions
imposed by other states "have been effective". This legislation is
viewed as "a reasonable accommodation".
5:31:49 PM
Co-Chair Green understood that Mexico is one of the greatest
sources of the finished meth product. While the import of the
product, which is contributing to its usage, is not being addressed
in bill, such importation might be the reason that meth use in
other states is not being reduced even though such efforts have
been made.
Mr. Guaneli noted that Interstate 5 (I-5), which transits from
Mexico through the states of Washington, Oregon and California, is
difficult for law enforcement officers to monitor. Thankfully, I-5
does not transit to Alaska. Alaska State Troopers would be
appreciative were the results of this legislation to mirror the
reduction in meth production that has occurred in other states that
have adopted similar legislation. Such legislation would provide
them the ability to concentrate on other sources such airports and
the mail.
5:33:11 PM
JANE PEARSON, Staff to Representative Jay Ramras, the bill's
sponsor, informed the Committee that Representative Ramras "is in
favor of the logs". Representatives of the Department of Public
Safety should be provided an opportunity to speak to the reasons
for their support of the logs.
Mr. Guaneli spoke to the importance of the logbooks. He noted that
language in Sec. 6(a), page six, beginning on line 13 makes the
purchase or possession of more than nine grams of the identified
drugs within a 30-day period, a crime. Absent the logbook,
"positive proof of such action" would be difficult to prosecute.
Tips from the store or from other Meth users would be insufficient.
The log entries are important to the "overall effectiveness" of the
bill.
Mr. Guaneli restated his May 4, 2005 comments to the Committee
regarding the fact that the logbooks would be "an effective
deterrent", as people who purchase pseudoephedrine to provide to
meth manufacturers are often users themselves and, as a result,
become paranoid and would not desire to use identification. The
logbook requirement "would make a difference".
5:35:46 PM
Mr. Guaneli voiced being uncertain as to what Carrs/Safeway "is
proposing "in exchange" for the log books. While their stores do
have cameras, the information that could be provided by them is
unclear. "Even if you have cameras showing people coming into the
store and showing people going up to the counter; unless you can
really tie that to a specific transaction; tie that to a specific
amount; tie that to a specific person, its going to be maybe
interesting information but not anything that can really be used by
an investigator to pursue it further."
Mr. Guaneli stated that another point he had made in the May 4th
hearing is that before the state of Iowa enacted their
pseudoephedrine legislation, an Iowa university had conducted a
survey to gauge public reaction to it. The result was "
overwhelmingly" public support for the identification and signature
requirements as well as the purchase quantity limitations. The
public "understood the importance of doing so". Given that there is
both public and law enforcement support of such legislation would
identify the action as "an important step".
Mr. Guaneli opined that the bill's sponsor has endeavored to be
responsive to retail industry concerns. The specification of a
logbook termination date would provide an opportunity to review the
success of the effort. The fact that the Department of Public
Safety would be required to establish the logbook guidelines would
provide retailers another opportunity to provide input.
Mr. Guaneli stated that while there are many large retailers who
have sophisticated point of sale technology, many small stores
might not. The logbook being proposed, "was chosen" because it
would provide a uniform method of collecting information that would
work for both small and large stores. Similar logbook provisions
have worked well in other states and should work well in Alaska.
Co-Chair Wilken characterized this as being a good bill. "A lot of
work has gone into it … by a lot of different authors." The
implementation of many of its provisions would do some good;
however, he voiced concern about the logbook issue. While he
respected Mr. Guaneli's remarks, he also heard the concerns raised
by retailers. Therefore, in an effort to move the bill forward, he
suggested that the logbook language be removed from the bill. The
bill's sponsor could work with retailers over the Interim to
determine how to make the logbook "less intrusive". "Even if that
weren't to happen", such an event as a "reverse sunset" might
eventually occur in that, while the provisions of the bill might be
having an affect, Legislators might choose at some point to include
the logbook as a means to further enhance the effort.
Co-Chair Wilken stated he would support the bill were the log
provisions removed. Not "enough work" has been conducted in regards
to its affect on either large or small retailers or consumers.
There is also a question as to the level of benefit that would be
provided by the log and whether it might also be an invasion of
privacy.
Co-Chair Green doubted whether the bill would move forward were the
logbook language included. Perhaps another component of the bill
could "be strengthened in exchange" for the logbook's removal.
5:40:57 PM
To that point, Co-Chair Green suggested that language in Sec. 11
(a) page nine beginning on line 16 could be changed to read as
follows.
(a) A wholesaler, manufacturer, or distributor of products
containing ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, or phenylpropanolamine,
or their salts, isomers, or salts of isomers, or iodine or
crystal iodine, has an affirmative duty to report to a law
enforcement agency or offices suspicious purchases, shall keep
complete records of all transactions involving those products,
including the names of all parties involved in the
transaction, the date of the transaction, and the amount of
the drug products involved. The records shall be kept readily
retrievable for inspection by law enforcement officers and
separate from all other invoices or records of transactions
not involving those products and shall be maintained for one
year, or a shorter period of time established by the
Department of Public Safety by regulation, and must allow for
inspection of the records by law enforcement officers.
Co-Chair Green also suggested that language in Sec. 11 (d) page ten
lines 19 through 21 could be "strengthened as a reporting
standard".
Mr. Guaneli agreed that there was an opportunity to strengthen that
language; however, that determination could be made via regulations
adopted by the Department of Public Safety. The Department could
outline what would constitute a suspicious purchase that "would
then trigger some reporting".
Co-Chair Green asked whether current language in Sec. 11 on pages
nine and ten of the bill would provide the Department of Public
Safety sufficient "leeway in making those kinds of requirements".
Mr. Guaneli conveyed that the Legislative Review Committee
carefully assesses the specifics of language that provides agencies
the authority to adopt administrative regulations" and when it is
not "crystal clear, agencies are criticized for doing so". Specific
regulation making authority" language could be included in the
bill.
5:43:25 PM
Mr. Guaneli expressed that Co-Chair Wilken's idea of some kind of
"reverse sunset" is an interesting idea. The question would be
whether it would be "the desire to have this matter come before the
Legislature again or" at a specified time in the future, the
Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety might "certify that
there has not been any significant reduction in the diversion of
pseudoephedrine from legitimate sources to the manufacturers of
methamphetamine", and that action would allow for the adoption of
logbooks at that point.
5:44:05 PM
Mr. Guaneli continued therefore that the question is whether the
desire would be for the Legislature to revisit the legislation in,
for example, a year or whether some sort of certification by the
Department of Public Safety would suffice.
Co-Chair Green interjected that rather than the Legislative action
being to preordain anything, it would simply provide for a review
of the process, by a date certain.
Mr. Guaneli acknowledged.
Co-Chair Green stated that rather than this being a decision made
solely by the Committee, Representative Ramras, Senator Guess and
others should be involved in the discussion. Language in written
form should be developed for further consideration.
Mr. Guaneli affirmed that he would "work in that direction".
Co-Chair Green ordered the bill HELD in Committee.
5:45:02 PM
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