Legislature(2007 - 2008)BUTROVICH 205
03/26/2008 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| HB137 | |
| Confirmation Hearings – Board of Fisheries | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | HB 137 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
CSHB 137(FIN)am-FISHING/HUNTING/TRAPPING LICENSES
3:40:41 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS announced CSHB 137(FIN)am to be up for
consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL SEATON, sponsor of HB 137, explained that
this measure looks at the current Permanent Identification
Program (PID) that is a free benefit for Alaskans who are
seniors over 60 years old. Seniors who apply are given a
temporary I.D. until they get a permanent one in the mail. It is
good as a hunting, fishing and trapping license for the rest of
one's life.
He explained that the problem with the program is the potential
for fraud because the initial application doesn't require people
to prove they are an Alaskan resident. They don't even have to
show a drivers' license and, in fact, if you have drivers'
license from another state, that's fine - as long as you say you
are an Alaskan resident. Troopers have reported having
difficulty with this lack of verification.
In 2006, 297,895 seniors had these free PID licenses for life.
No one knows how current the cards are. Some people have
actually quit selling fishing licenses because so many people
using these cards for personal use fishing were obviously from
out-of-state. You have to be a resident to have personal use
privileges, but it's almost impossible for state troopers in the
field to verify.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON said HB 137 modifies the permanent
identification to a three-year license. The whole intent is to
give these free licenses to seniors, but to have them on a
three-year cycle so that if people move out of state and no
longer maintain their PFD eligibility, then they wouldn't be
able to get the free license.
The intent of the department is to just check PIDs against the
PFD list and send people new cards as long as they were PFD
eligible on a three-year cycle. Since some people disagree with
the PFD program, HB 137 also has a provision allowing a senior
to demonstrate he has been in Alaska for 180 days out of the
previous year to maintain the same eligibility. He said HB 137
also expands this three-year free license to active duty
National Guard that perform emergency services for Alaska as
well as overseas in support of our country.
3:45:37 PM
ADF&G estimates the state is losing $137,000 per year from non
residents continuing to participate in hunting and fishing.
About 300,000 cards are out there now and Alaska doesn't have
300,000 seniors.
SENATOR STEVENS said he supported this measure and quipped about
how many members of the Senate are over 60 and already have
their permanent licenses.
3:47:04 PM
SENATOR WAGONER said it was a good idea, but if the department
knows there is that much fraud, why aren't they doing something
about it and prosecuting them. He is embarrassed that it hasn't
been addressed by the authorities already.
SENATOR GREEN asked what the current penalty for fraud like this
is.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON answered the he didn't know exactly,
because the requirement for residency is "very squishy" because
you can have an out-of-state drivers' license and still be an
in-state resident. It's very difficult for troopers in the field
to determine residency.
SENATOR WAGONER asked how a person can have an out-of-state
drivers' license and be eligible for a resident hunting and
fishing license. Doesn't the law say you must get an Alaskan
drivers' license as soon as you establish a residence here?
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that's true, but if you travel
outside for any length of time even though you don't change your
residency, you are often required to get a new drivers' license
in some states. Nothing in Alaska statute ties a drivers'
license to residency verification.
He has been told by the troopers and the department that it is
extremely difficult to identify residency; that's why they
turned to PFD list. ADF&G has access to the PFD list which makes
it an easy call. He said the penalty for fraud is five years and
$5,000.
SENATOR GREEN asked if the bill says giving wrong information on
an application is fraud or vowing you are an Alaska resident to
get a free PID.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON answered that any time you tell a lie on
government paperwork there is a general fraud penalty; the PID
doesn't have a separate penalty. Mostly what's happening is that
someone was an Alaskan resident when they applied, but then they
left the state. They have the permanent card even though fine
print on the back of it says:
This card must be in your possession while engaging in
authorized activities as described in the front. The
card is not valid if residency requirements as per AS
16.05.940 and AS 16.05.415 and veteran requirements,
if applicable, per AS 16.05.341 are not maintained.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what those provisions mean.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied that a letter from the Division of
Administrative Services in their packets explains that resident
is:
A person who for 12 consecutive months immediately
preceding the time when the assertion of residency is
made has maintain permanent domicile in the state and
who is neither claiming residency in another state,
territory or country or obtaining benefits under claim
of residency in another state.
He reiterated that the department has brought this issue forward
as a problem and that's why the bill is here.
3:55:02 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS said he wanted to see statistics on violations.
KATIE SHOWS, staff to Representative Seaton, said there aren't
any statistics because it's difficult to enforce and so it
hasn't been a priority. She had a series of eight anecdotal
comments from Wildlife Troopers about this type of abuse.
CHAIR HUGGINS said he's looking for a simple solution and asked
if they couldn't just require having a current Alaska drivers'
license.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON answered that nothing in statute says an
Alaskan resident over 60 years old has to have a drivers'
license and many Natives in the field don't have them. Both the
department and enforcement have said the current system does not
work and have suggested using PFD data.
3:58:10 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS said he thought about expanding the three years to
five years.
SENATOR WAGONER said he didn't know that there was as much abuse
as the department says because he regularly drives through the
parking lot for the Kenai dip net fishery looking for out-of-
state licenses and he hasn't seen one.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON responded that they don't have any idea
how much abuse goes on, but they do know 300,000 of these cards
have been issued. One of the more problematic features has been
not only the personal use fishery, but the permit hunts because
a number of them require Alaskan residency. This loophole has
been identified as a problem.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked for examples.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON answered like goat hunting.
CHAIR HUGGINS said age starts eliminating the older participants
and most people over 60 don't hunt for goats.
4:01:37 PM
SENATOR GREEN asked if they aren't enforcing what they currently
have, why change anything if it's not going to make any
difference. She didn't know why people over 60 get a free PID in
the first place and she was struck by a comment in the sponsor
statement that said HB 137 establishes stricter licensing
requirements - and she asked where those were located.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON directed her to section 4 on page 3 where
language says PFD eligibility is maintained by being in the
state for 180 days a year.
SENATOR GREEN asked when the proof of receiving a PFD kicks in -
at someone's office who has access to the PFD records or to a
trooper in the field.
REPRESENTATIVE SEATON replied before the new card is issued, it
will be checked at the ADF&G licensing counter.
4:04:35 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how this would work.
KRISTIN WRIGHT, Supervisor, Finance and Licensing, Alaska
Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G), replied HB 137 says every
three years she would have an automatic system that would cross-
reference PIDs with the PFD disbursement file. People who
received a PFD would automatically get a new card at that
address. If not, she would send a letter stating that they did
not receive a PFD and asking for other proof of residency like a
utility bill. She wouldn't send anything if she didn't get a
response.
4:06:37 PM
SENATOR GREEN asked where it says "automatically."
MS. WRIGHT answered that Representative Seaton wanted that done.
The Department of Motor Vehicles sends out notices for expired
licenses and she didn't think that many people would remember
it's time to get a new PID card.
SENATOR GREEN said its one thing to send them a renewal notice,
but she wouldn't be automatically sending them a new PID card.
MS. WRIGHT answered if they were on the PFD disbursal list, she
wouldn't make seniors fill out another form because she would
already know they are an Alaskan resident and send them a card.
SENATOR WAGONER said it would cost the state $126,000 in postal
charges alone to send out notices to the current 300,000 PID
card holders. Why should the state spend that additional money
if people are going to get a free fishing, hunting and trapping
license for five years. They should be able to check every year
to keep it current. Secondly, he asked, if the department
already has a list of 300,000 PID cards, why aren't they cross
checking them with the PFD list and sending out tickets to the
violators in the mail and a date to appear in court.
MS. WRIGHT answered they don't actually know that these people
are actively fishing or hunting. She couldn't send them a ticket
because they haven't been caught. It isn't until a trooper meets
them in the field that they whip out their PID card.
SENATOR WAGONER said he thought it would be pretty easy to
compare the two lists and, if nothing else, come up with a watch
list of who is not eligible and distribute that to the people in
the field and the ones selling licenses. He thinks the state is
way too easy on people who fill up their freezers and go back
home with Alaska's resource.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked her to explain the timing of checking with
the PFD and the expiration.
4:12:30 PM
MS. WRIGHT answered that a license is valid for a calendar year,
January through December. A new license in 2008 would be valid
through 2010. Some time in November or December 2010 she would
look at the 2009 PFD eligibility disbursement and she would
either send a new card, a renewal reminder or wait until the
person contacts her. She would know the name is valid for that
time period.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked why not fix this in regulation.
MS. WRIGHT replied they probably could, but would have to ask
legal counsel.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked what is out of sync with the calendar year.
MS. WRIGHT answered that trapping license are valid through
January 31 of the following year.
CHAIR HUGGINS explained the reason for that is because trappers
were out in the Bush. He still had a hard time believing this
is a big problem. Is it a big problem her mind?
MS. WRIGHT replied the Department of Public Safety (DPS) has
heard a lot of concerns from its troopers in the field because
it is very hard to tell if the people they see are really
residents or not. You have to actually go out and prove by
looking at their records where they are now living. In 2006,
there were only two violations - one in Hyder and one in
Ninilchik. She wasn't aware of any in 2007.
SENATOR WAGONER said the PFD list doesn't do the department a
bit of good in determining residency because someone can be gone
from the state 300 days a year and as long as they maintain a
residence and maintain their voting registration they are
legally a resident of the state of Alaska.
MS. WRIGHT said not and get the PFD.
SENATOR WAGONER said just because a person doesn't get a PFD
doesn't mean they aren't a resident.
MS. WRIGHT replied she worked with the DPS and DOL about two
years ago on the residency issue for fish and game purposes.
Each program has its own residency requirements. One of the
questions she came up with was how long could you be gone from
the state. So the lawyers found that courts also look at the
number of months spent at a domicile located in another state
versus the number of months spent in Alaska. For example, if you
spend nine months in another state and three months in Alaska,
your residency in Alaska could be questioned and would be taken
into consideration along with other factors. There isn't
necessarily a hard and fast rule.
4:19:32 PM
SENATOR WAGONER said they should put it either into regulation
or statute because without that, people have a legitimate
argument that they are legal residents.
MS. WRIGHT agreed he was correct that putting it in statute
would make it clear, but then you would have a big debate on how
long you could be gone.
SENATOR GREEN directed them to the Department of Administration
memo on definitions. Since it's in the Administrative Code, she
didn't think it necessarily had to be in statute.
MS. WRIGHT said the code doesn't put the time limit in; only
that it will be considered.
SENATOR GREEN asked her to make sure the current identity theft
legislation didn't impact the ability of her department to share
information with other departments.
CHAIR HUGGINS directed Ms. Wright to get together with his staff
and work through these issues. He opened the public comment
period.
4:21:58 PM
DREW SPARLIN, Kenai resident for 40 years, said he is an active
fisherman and hunter. He has been a grateful user of a PID card
for last 10 years and he supported the concept behind HB 137 in
light of its many benefits.
4:23:33 PM
MCHUGH PIERRE, Legislative Liaison, Military and Veterans
Affairs, strongly supported HB 137 especially because of section
3. They believe this is an opportunity to encourage efforts at
recruiting, but also to recognize the men and women in the
Alaska Army and Air National Guard for their efforts protecting
our state and nation.
CHAIR HUGGINS said this is intended as a recruiting tool and he
thought they should make sure they are not excluding people who
might be in a different unit. He asked if other states have a
benefit like this.
4:25:56 PM
MR. PIERRE answered not in Alaska, but other states have similar
benefits where one presents a military I.D. as proof of being an
active member in good standing. Reservists would have a
certified document signed by your unit commander.
CHAIR HUGGINS said sometimes people are a member of a unit, but
they live in a different state and that is particularly true of
the Air National Guard. He asked if Alaska has any of those
instances because that would complicate the language in the bill
a little bit.
MR. PIERRE answered he didn't know of any Alaska Air National
Guard members who are residents in another state, but he has
heard anecdotal stories about members of the Air National Guard
who live in Alaska that are members of the Washington or the
California Air National Guard.
CHAIR HUGGINS said he was trying to ascertain whether this
language works for Alaska in the sense that they have to be a
resident and an active member or is it just an active member.
MR. PIERRE replied they have to be a resident and an active
member; that can be established with the PFD qualifications as
well as their UTA good standing certificate. They are talking
about 4,300 members for the Guard; for the reserve components
they are talking about another 750 people at the absolute most.
CHAIR HUGGINS held HB 137 in committee.
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