Legislature(2007 - 2008)CAPITOL 106

03/01/2007 08:00 AM House STATE AFFAIRS


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08:03:16 AM Start
08:03:45 AM HB109
09:57:11 AM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+= HB 109 DISCLOSURES & ETHICS TELECONFERENCED
Heard & Held
+= HB 3 REQUIREMENTS FOR DRIVER'S LICENSE/I.D. TELECONFERENCED
Scheduled But Not Heard
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
HB 109-DISCLOSURES & ETHICS                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:03:45 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  announced that the  only order of business  was HOUSE                                                               
BILL  NO.   109,  "An  Act   relating  to  the   requirement  for                                                               
candidates,  groups,  legislators,  public officials,  and  other                                                               
persons  to submit  reports electronically  to the  Alaska Public                                                               
Offices  Commission;  relating  to  disclosures  by  legislators,                                                               
public  members of  the Select  Committee on  Legislative Ethics,                                                               
legislative directors,  public officials, and  certain candidates                                                               
for public office concerning  services performed for compensation                                                               
and  concerning  certain  income,   gifts,  and  other  financial                                                               
matters;  requiring legislators,  public  members  of the  Select                                                               
Committee  on Legislative  Ethics, legislative  directors, public                                                               
officials,  and  municipal  officers to  make  certain  financial                                                               
disclosures  when they  leave office;  relating to  insignificant                                                               
ownership interest in a business  and to gifts from lobbyists for                                                               
purposes of the  Alaska Executive Branch Ethics  Act; relating to                                                               
certain restrictions  on employment  after leaving  state service                                                               
for purposes of the Alaska Executive Branch Ethics Act; and                                                                     
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
[Before the committee was CSHB 109, Version GH1059\K, Wayne,                                                                    
2/21/07, as work draft.]                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:04:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN, after ascertaining that there was no one to testify,                                                                
closed public testimony.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:04:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN said the committee would begin by addressing                                                                         
Amendment 12, which read as follows [original punctuation                                                                       
provided]:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 17, line 21:                                                                                                          
          Delete "$5,000"                                                                                                       
          Insert "$1,000"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 17, line 31:                                                                                                          
          Delete "if the income was earned by the hour,"                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 18, line 10:                                                                                                          
          Delete "$5,000"                                                                                                       
          Insert "$1,000"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 18, line 17:                                                                                                          
          Delete "$5,000"                                                                                                       
          Insert "$1,000"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 18, line 20:                                                                                                          
          Delete "$5,000"                                                                                                       
          Insert "$1,000"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 18, line 24:                                                                                                          
          Delete "$5,000"                                                                                                       
          Insert "$1,000"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Page 18, line 27:                                                                                                          
          Delete "$5,000"                                                                                                       
          Insert "$1,000"                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:05:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
DAVID  JONES,   Senior  Assistant  Attorney   General,  Opinions,                                                               
Appeals,  & Ethics,  Civil  Division  (Anchorage), Department  of                                                               
Law,  reviewed the  action  the committee  had  taken during  its                                                               
prior hearing of HB  109.  He said both Amendments  12 and 13 are                                                               
designed to increase  the level of disclosure  required of public                                                               
officials  and,  in  the  case   of  Amendment  13,  legislators,                                                               
legislative  directors,  and the  public  members  of the  Select                                                               
Committee  on  Legislative Ethics.    Amendment  12, he  related,                                                               
would  require  public  officials to  disclose  more  information                                                               
about  their sources  of outside  income in  two ways:   One,  it                                                               
would reduce the  reporting threshold from $5,000  to $1,000; and                                                               
two, it  would require public  officials to report the  number of                                                               
hours  worked  for that  outside  income,  regardless of  whether                                                               
they're working on  an hourly basis, or "some other  basis."  The                                                               
public  officials  affected  by  Amendment  13,  he  said,  would                                                               
include   high-level   executive   branch   officials,   judicial                                                               
officers, and certain municipal officers, among others.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES continued:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     We  believe that  $1,000 is  the appropriate  threshold                                                                    
     for a couple  reasons:  One, $1,000 to most  folks is a                                                                    
     lot of  money.  Try  convincing someone to give  up his                                                                    
     or her  permanent fund dividend  if you have  any doubt                                                                    
     about  that.    The  other reason  is  that  in  August                                                                    
     [2006],  by initiative,  the Alaska  public reduced  to                                                                    
     $1,000 the  reporting threshold for legislators.   Now,                                                                    
     if what we  want is consistency, then we  ought to have                                                                    
     a $1,000 reporting threshold  for the public officials,                                                                    
     ... the executive branch, and judicial branch, also.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JONES  said  it  is  important that  all  hours  worked  are                                                               
reported, not just those hours in  which someone is working on an                                                               
hourly basis.  He explained:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     If, for  example, I'm required  to report, and  I earn,                                                                    
     under a  flat fee  contract, $50,000, but  only perform                                                                    
     one  hour of  work to  get that  $50,000, the  public's                                                                    
     going to  want to know  that.  They're going  to wonder                                                                    
     where my loyalties lie if  I'm getting $50,000 for only                                                                    
     one hour's work.   And for that reason  we believe that                                                                    
     the  number of  hours worked  is an  important fact  to                                                                    
     include  in   the  reports   required  of   the  public                                                                    
     officials.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES urged the committee to adopt Amendment 12.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:09:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  directed attention to the  portion of the                                                               
bill that Amendment  12 would affect, on page 18  [of Version K].                                                               
He  said  he  understands  the requirement  of  [paragraph  (2)],                                                               
relating to  holding interest in  stocks, but he opined  that the                                                               
change  to $1,000  in  [paragraph  (4)], which  is  in regard  to                                                               
trusts and  fiduciary relations, would  be low.   Regarding loans                                                               
or  loan guarantees  mentioned in  [paragraph  (5)], he  surmised                                                               
that "that's probably a credit line  that you're going to have to                                                               
report at the end  of the year."  He indicated  that a person may                                                               
run over the $1,000 amount frequently.   He revealed that he uses                                                               
his credit line quite a bit and  he wonders, "Is that a big deal;                                                               
is that  an ethical  problem?"   Chair Coghill  said that  in the                                                               
quest for  transparency, it may be  possible to get "down  to the                                                               
... nit-picky part."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:13:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  said he  is not sure  this is  "the issue."                                                               
He  explained that  currently  the disclosure  form  "asks us  to                                                               
report  this information  regardless of  the dollar  amount," but                                                               
exempts credit cards.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  clarified that  the credit line  to which                                                               
he had  referred does not pertain  to a credit card.   He offered                                                               
an example  wherein he may  borrow $1,000 from  his son to  buy a                                                               
water softener,  paying his son back  in a month.   He questioned                                                               
the  necessity of  disclosing such  an amount.   He  said, "We're                                                               
talking  about the  whole  range  of movement  of  money in  your                                                               
life."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:15:40 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES, to Representative Coghill, said:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     You asked whether, if at  any time during the year, the                                                                    
     loan  amount  exceeded  $1,000, it  would  need  to  be                                                                    
     reported.   For  this  provision -  applying to  public                                                                    
     officials - it would.   It says in [paragraph (5)] that                                                                    
     anything over $5,000 under  the existing language would                                                                    
     need to be  reported if it exceeded $5,000  at any time                                                                    
     during  the  preceding calendar  year.    So, it  would                                                                    
     cover the  bubble at  some time  during the  year; it's                                                                    
     not just what's owed at the end of the year.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     And in  terms of whether  this is necessary  to require                                                                    
     this level  of detail, I  say, "Let's bore  the public;                                                                    
     let's show  them that  all of this  stuff is  routine -                                                                    
     that  there's  nothing to  worry  about."   That's  the                                                                    
     whole goal  of transparency,  to show folks  that there                                                                    
     is no reason to question  the actions that their public                                                                    
     officials are  taking.  Because  they're just  like us;                                                                    
     they're engaged in the same  sorts of transactions that                                                                    
     we are  day to day.   And  when they borrow  money here                                                                    
     and pay it  back later ..., they're  just operating the                                                                    
     same  way we  do.   And there's  no reason  to question                                                                    
     that  they  have   these  undisclosed  transactions  or                                                                    
     relationships that the public should worry about.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:17:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG stated that  he supports the language in                                                               
"the bill  as presented."   He indicated  that [paragraph  (4) on                                                               
page  18]  would  require  parents   who  deposit  their  child's                                                               
permanent fund dividend  into an account [related  to the Uniform                                                               
Transfer for Minors  Act (UTMA)] to report that  "for two years."                                                               
With respect to the value of stock  on page 18, line 10, he said,                                                               
"That will require people to study  the stock values in the paper                                                               
for every day just  to see if it went, at  one time, over $1,000.                                                               
That's  a very  small amount.   If  it's $5,000  at least  it's a                                                               
substantial  interest  and  there's  really an  interest  in  the                                                               
public in knowing that.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  reminded everyone that "this  is not in                                                               
the legislature,"  but rather would affect  the executive branch.                                                               
He said the initiative [passed in  the fall of 2006] did not deal                                                               
with the executive  branch, and he remarked that  if the drafters                                                               
of the  initiative had  wanted to  include the  executive branch,                                                               
they would have done so.   He directed attention to page 17, line                                                               
31, which specifies  work paid by the hour.   He said many people                                                               
are not  paid by  the hour, but  are paid by  the result,  and it                                                               
would be misleading to the public.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:20:39 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  recollected that  "this is  referenced by                                                               
our Title 24 reporting."  He  noted that the language on page 17,                                                               
line 19, read,  "or candidate under this chapter".   He said, "It                                                               
seems that  our Title 24  referenced that  as well, so,  I'm just                                                               
looking for clarification on that."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:21:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL asked:  "Do  I understand this correctly that                                                               
if I  went and got  a loan  to buy a  car ... for  my son,  ... I                                                               
would have  to disclose that  I got a  loan to  buy a car?"   [In                                                               
response   to  several   members  nodding   their  head   in  the                                                               
affirmative],  she  said,   "That  does  seem  to   be  a  little                                                               
inordinate surveillance on this kind of thing."                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:22:04 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES noted that following  "by the hour", on page                                                           
17, line  31, is "the  approximate number  of hours worked".   He                                                           
stated that  he thinks "what  we're looking for" is  addressed by                                                               
the previous  remark made by Mr.  Jones that the public  does not                                                               
want to see  someone get paid $50,000 for only  one hour of work.                                                               
He  directed   attention  to  [subparagraph  (F)]   on  page  18,                                                               
beginning on  line 2, which  sets up  an exception for  those who                                                               
are required  to keep  their work  confidential, such  as doctors                                                               
and lawyers.   He said although he understands  the reasoning, he                                                               
questions creating a  special class of citizenry  "within our own                                                               
ranks."  He  emphasized that he wants [the  public] to understand                                                               
the  dilemma:    Nobody  wants   to  leave  a  loophole  and  the                                                               
possibility for corruption, but  closing that loophole may result                                                               
in  either exclusive  groups of  people  within the  body or  the                                                               
exclusion of people from the body.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:26:33 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  reminded everyone that the  issue here is                                                               
in regard  to the executive  branch.  He reiterated  his question                                                               
regarding  the  ethical  nature of  reporting  or  not  reporting                                                               
amounts under  $1,000, as well  as his statement that  the $5,000                                                               
limit seems more reasonable.  He  stated, "I need to be convinced                                                               
that my capacity to report cleanly  is going to be ... clear, and                                                               
I'm just not convinced of that right now."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
8:29:10 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL  moved to adopt  Amendment 12  [text provided                                                               
previously].                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON objected.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:29:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JONES stated  that  he agrees  that  reducing the  reporting                                                               
threshold to  $1,000 would increase  the burden of  reporting for                                                               
public officials,  as well  as increase  the risk  of inadvertent                                                               
failure  to report.    He  said he  thinks  the circumstances  of                                                               
[failing  to report]  will  determine how  the  public views  the                                                               
particular incident.  He added, "But  ... we have no control over                                                               
the headlines."                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:30:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES stated,  "You're  not allowed  to give  the                                                               
people  their own  perception;  you plant  the  perception."   He                                                               
said,  "I  agree, if  everybody  were  rational, reasonable,  and                                                               
logical, we  wouldn't need any  of these,  we could have  had one                                                               
line, and  it would have  said, 'Be ethical.'   But unfortunately                                                               
not everybody fits  into that category, so we have  to go through                                                               
23 pages  of detailed explanation."   He said he  appreciates Mr.                                                               
Jones' sentiment, but  he indicated that unfortunately  it is not                                                               
based in reality.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
[REPRESENTATIVE DOLL maintained her objection.]                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
A roll call  vote was taken.  Representative Lynn  voted in favor                                                               
of  Amendment  12.   Representatives  Johnson,  Gruenberg,  Doll,                                                               
Roses,  Coghill,  and  Johansen  voted against  it.    Therefore,                                                               
Amendment 12 failed by a vote of 1-6.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:32:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  moved to  adopt Amendment 13,  which read                                                               
as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 16, following line 8:                                                                                                 
      Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                        
     "* Sec. 22.  AS 24.60.200 is amended to read:                                                                            
          Sec.   24.60.200.      Financial   disclosure   by                                                                  
     legislators,  public  members  of  the  committee,  and                                                                  
     legislative directors.   A legislator, a  public member                                                                  
     of  the committee,  and  a  legislative director  shall                                                                    
     file a disclosure statement, under  oath and on penalty                                                                    
     of perjury,  with the Alaska Public  Offices Commission                                                                    
     giving  the  following  information  about  the  income                                                                    
     received by  the discloser,  the discloser's  spouse or                                                                    
     domestic partner,  the discloser's  dependent children,                                                                    
     and  the  discloser's  nondependent  children  who  are                                                                    
     living with the discloser:                                                                                                 
              (1)  the information that a public official                                                                       
     is required  to report  under AS 39.50.030,  other than                                                                    
     information about gifts;                                                                                                   
              (2)  as to income in excess of $1,000                                                                             
     received  as compensation  for  personal services,  the                                                                    
     name  and address  of  the source  of  the income,  the                                                                
     amount of the  income, the number of  hours of services                                                                
     performed  to   earn  that  income,  and   a  statement                                                                
     describing  in  detail  the   nature  of  the  services                                                                
     performed;  [IF  THE  SOURCE  OF  INCOME  IS  KNOWN  OR                                                                    
     REASONABLY  SHOULD  BE  KNOWN  TO  HAVE  A  SUBSTANTIAL                                                                    
     INTEREST IN  LEGISLATIVE, ADMINISTRATIVE,  OR POLITICAL                                                                    
     ACTION AND THE RECIPIENT OF  THE INCOME IS A LEGISLATOR                                                                    
     OR  A  LEGISLATIVE  DIRECTOR,   THE  AMOUNT  OF  INCOME                                                                    
     RECEIVED FROM THE SOURCE SHALL BE DISCLOSED;]                                                                              
              (3)  as to each loan or loan guarantee over                                                                       
     $1,000  from a  source with  a substantial  interest in                                                                    
     legislative, administrative,  or political  action, the                                                                    
     name  and address  of  the person  making  the loan  or                                                                    
     guarantee,  the  amount  of the  loan,  the  terms  and                                                                    
     conditions  under  which  the  loan  or  guarantee  was                                                                    
     given, the  amount outstanding at  the time  of filing,                                                                    
     and whether or not a written loan agreement exists."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:33:06 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES objected for  discussion purposes.  He noted                                                               
that Amendment 13 also address AS 39.50.030.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:33:49 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JONES clarified  that the  reference in  Amendment 13  to AS                                                               
39.50.030  pertains to  current law.   He  said the  new language                                                               
would  require additional  details in  the disclosures  currently                                                               
required  from   legislators,  public   members  of   the  Select                                                               
Committee on  Legislative Ethics, and legislative  directors.  He                                                               
read the bold,  underlined new language [shown  in the previously                                                               
provided text  of Amendment  13].  He  said the  $1,000 threshold                                                               
that  exists   "under  this  provision"  exists   because  of  an                                                               
initiative adopted in  August 2006, thus, the  legislature is not                                                               
in a position to deal with that.   The effect of Amendment 13, he                                                               
said, would  merely be  to acquire  additional details  about the                                                               
income that is earned for outside services.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:35:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to  adopt Amendment 1 to Amendment                                                               
13, which read as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 16 through page 2, line 9.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
          Delete all material and insert information from                                                                       
     page 17, line  21 through page 19, line 9  of the Draft                                                                    
     Version "K" of CSHB 190  and $1,000 in each place where                                                                    
     $5,000 appears.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES objected.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  spoke to  Amendment 1 to  Amendment 13.                                                               
He  said the  amount  must  be $1,000,  because  that's what  the                                                               
initiative demands.   He said, "It makes it so  that the language                                                               
exactly  tracks  the  language  we have  just  been  debating  in                                                               
Amendment 12."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:37:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES said  [Amendment  13]  "already has  $1,000                                                               
everywhere you want to replace $5,000."                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG explained  that instead  of referencing                                                               
two different  standards, Amendment 1  to Amendment 13  would use                                                               
the language from AS 39.50.030,  with the exception of the amount                                                               
of money,  which has  to be  $1,000 in order  not to  violate the                                                               
initiative.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES responded, "I  guess I'm confused; I thought                                                               
we just voted on not changing that to $1,000" [in Amendment 12].                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  clarified  that [Amendment  12]  dealt                                                               
with  Title 39  - the  executive branch.   The  initiative passed                                                               
last  fall,  he  said,  requires   the  reporting  of  $1,000  of                                                               
legislators and legislative candidates.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:38:56 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JONES said  there is  already  a provision  in statute  that                                                               
addresses  gifts separately,  and  that is  [AS]  24.60.080.   He                                                               
suggested there  may be  "duplication problems"  in incorporating                                                               
the language in Title 39.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
8:39:39 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG stated that it  was not his intention to                                                               
do anything to change that little provision in Title 34.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:40:20 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BROOKE MILES, Executive Director, Alaska Public Offices                                                                         
Commission, APOC, said, "When I saw this amendment, this looked                                                                 
to reverse what you just voted on."  She reviewed as follows:                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Current   law  does   require   the  $1,000   reporting                                                                    
     threshold  for sources  of income  and indebtedness  on                                                                    
     legislators.    Current  law  has  a  $5,000  reporting                                                                    
     threshold   on   the   same  information   for   public                                                                    
     officials.   Public  officials  report  any gifts  more                                                                    
     than $250  to the Alaska Public  Offices Commission, as                                                                    
     well as to their  designated ethics supervisors.  Gifts                                                                    
     under the legislative financial  disclosures go to your                                                                    
     Select Committee on Legislative  Ethics, which ... [the                                                                    
     reason  for]  the  language  at line  16  and  17,  [as                                                                    
     numbered]  on  Amendment  13, "other  than  information                                                                    
     about  gifts".    I believe  that  process  has  worked                                                                    
     really well for everyone.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. MILES offered a brief history, noting that when citizens                                                                    
first enacted the financial disclosure law, the limit set was                                                                   
$100.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN asked if Amendment 1 to  Amendment 13 is needed.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:42:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES responded as follows:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     I believe  the intent of  the amendment is to  make the                                                                    
     two sections  parallel, so that what's  good for public                                                                    
     officials is good for legislators.   ... The difficulty                                                                    
     is that  those two systems have  developed in different                                                                    
     directions.    ...  Ms.  Miles and  I  have  given  the                                                                    
     example of the  gift (indisc. -- coughing).   And so, a                                                                    
     simple  solution to  make them  parallel isn't  simple;                                                                    
     it's difficult to reach that.   And so, we have to look                                                                    
     at  the  nuances of  the  differences  between the  two                                                                    
     systems ....                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN asked, "Does this go to the heart of what we're                                                                      
trying to do in HB 109?"                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES answered yes, but he said the difficulty is in the                                                                    
details.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:43:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  indicated that Amendment 1  to Amendment 13                                                               
would  result in  "everything" being  "under  Section 39.50,  not                                                               
under 24."   He indicated that  Amendment 12 dealt with  the same                                                               
sections.  He explained:                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     So,  if  you wanted  to  refer  this back  to  reducing                                                                    
     $5,000  to   where  $1,000  is,  to   comply  with  the                                                                    
     initiative, you have to go back  to Title 24.  ... This                                                                    
     specifically  says change  the  items  on these  pages.                                                                    
     They're all in  Title 39 and that's what  we just voted                                                                    
     on, on [Amendment] 12.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:44:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  withdrew Amendment  1 to  Amendment 13.                                                               
He said he wants it drafted correctly.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
8:45:49 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  noted that  the minutes from  the Alaska                                                               
Constitutional  Convention, case  law,  and  various opinions  of                                                               
attorney  generals  reinforce  the legislature's  power  to  make                                                               
changes to initiatives.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:47:43 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  moved Amendment  2 to Amendment  13, as                                                               
follows:                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     On page 1, line 20 [as numbered on Amendment 13]:                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
      Before "the number of hours of services performed to                                                                  
     earn that income"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Insert "if the income was earned by the hour"                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:48:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL objected.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
8:49:17 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG,   in  response  to  a   question  from                                                               
Representative Coghill, confirmed that  the intent of Amendment 2                                                               
to Amendment  13 is to "exactly  conform to what we've  just done                                                               
in  Title  39."    In  response  to  a  follow-up  question  from                                                               
Representative  Coghill,  regarding  why  the  amendment  is  not                                                               
redundant, he  explained that Amendment  2 to Amendment  13 makes                                                               
it clear that the same standard will apply in Title 24.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
8:50:12 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL asked for an opinion from Mr. Jones.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:50:24 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES stated:                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     Our concern about limiting reporting  of hours to those                                                                    
     cases in  which the person  is being paid on  an hourly                                                                    
     basis  is   the  $50,000  contract  that   I  mentioned                                                                    
     earlier:   I get $50,000  on a flat-fee basis;  I'm not                                                                    
     being paid  by the hour; I  only do an hour's  worth of                                                                    
     work.  I think the public will care to know that.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL concurred.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
8:51:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said many  members of the legislature do                                                               
not work by  the hour and it would be  misleading to disclose the                                                               
number of  hours worked, because to  do so would not  reflect the                                                               
value  of the  services or  the  skill required.   He  concluded,                                                               
"We've  already  been down  this  road  15  minutes ago  for  the                                                               
executive branch;  it doesn't make any  sense to me to  not adopt                                                               
the same policy in both branches."                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
8:51:54 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
A roll call  vote was taken.  Representatives  Gruenberg and Doll                                                               
voted in favor  of Amendment 2 to Amendment  13.  Representatives                                                               
Roses,  Coghill, Johansen,  Johnson, and  Lynn voted  against it.                                                               
Therefore, Amendment 2 to Amendment 13 failed by a vote of 2-5.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
8:52:56 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked if the  disclosure would be the same                                                               
for everyone,  including those  who have  to keep  their business                                                               
confidential.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:53:13 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JONES  related that  there  are  two means  for  exclusions.                                                               
Under  AS   24.60.230,  a  legislator   who  believes   that  the                                                               
constitution or laws  provide for privacy can apply  to the court                                                               
for an  exception.  An easier  method yet, he said,  exists under                                                               
APOC's  current regulation,  whereby  someone  who believes  that                                                               
reporting  [a   disclosure]  would   violate,  for   example,  an                                                               
attorney/client privilege  or doctor/client privilege,  may apply                                                               
for exception to the regulation and can be granted an exception.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. MILES confirmed that's correct.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
8:54:03 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  asked for confirmation that  that exception                                                               
does not exclude those people  from having to disclose, but would                                                               
make possible an exemption on  reporting all the details, such as                                                               
the name of the client or patient.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MS. MILES responded that's correct.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  asked if there  has been any  "contest on                                                               
what  is  or  what  is not  reasonably  substantial  interest  in                                                               
legislative, administrative affairs."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:55:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. MILES responded as follows:                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     This has  been a difficult  area for the  commission to                                                                    
     administer, being that it's subjective.   So, the filer                                                                    
     herself,  or  himself,   is  making  the  determination                                                                    
     whether or  not to include the  additional information,                                                                    
     based   on   whether   ...  there's   some   regulatory                                                                    
     guidelines  if  they  have more  than  $5,000-worth  of                                                                    
     contracts  with the  state, if  they're a  lobbyist, if                                                                    
     [they  have] otherwise  a  close economic  association.                                                                    
     But it is  subjective upon the filer  to determine when                                                                    
     their source  of income has  a substantial  interest in                                                                    
     state,   administrative,   legislative,  or   political                                                                    
     action.   And, in  the view  of the  commission, [there                                                                    
     are]  ... entities  in  Alaska ...  that  don't have  a                                                                    
     substantial  interest  in legislative,  administrative,                                                                    
     or political action.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  said the initiative uses  the phrase, "if                                                               
the  income is  known or  reasonably should  be known  to have  a                                                               
substantial   interest   in   legislative,   administrative,   or                                                               
political  action."   He said,  "Once again,  we're changing  the                                                               
initiative.   Though we're not  dealing with a hot  button number                                                               
issue,  we're  certainly  changing   the  language  of  what  the                                                               
expectation  of  the public  was."    He  said  for the  sake  of                                                               
consistency, the language [in brackets  in Amendment 13] needs to                                                               
be included.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
8:58:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES opined  that the  voters didn't  understand                                                               
the ramifications  of the initiative,  but instead  were reacting                                                               
emotionally   to  the   dollars   involved  and   the  input   of                                                               
journalists.  He  said, "If the intent is to  conform, we have to                                                               
go to  that extreme  detail.   ... I  don't see  where we  have a                                                               
choice.  I don't like it,  and I don't think it's reasonable, but                                                               
I would agree with you that we don't have a choice."                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
8:58:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  moved to  adopt Amendment 3  to Amendment                                                               
13,  to  reinsert the  language  that  Amendment 13  proposes  to                                                               
delete, beginning  on page 1,  line 21,  through page 2,  line 3,                                                               
[as numbered on Amendment 13], which read as follows:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     [IF THE SOURCE OF INCOME  IS KNOWN OR REASONABLY SHOULD                                                                    
     BE   KNOWN   TO   HAVE  A   SUBSTANTIAL   INTEREST   IN                                                                    
     LEGISLATIVE,  ADMINISTRATIVE, OR  POLITICAL ACTION  AND                                                                    
     THE  RECIPIENT  OF THE  INCOME  IS  A LEGISLATOR  OR  A                                                                    
     LEGISLATIVE  DIRECTOR, THE  AMOUNT  OF INCOME  RECEIVED                                                                    
     FROM THE SOURCE SHALL BE DISCLOSED;]                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
There  being  no  objection,  Amendment 3  to  Amendment  13  was                                                               
adopted.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:59:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  stated  concern  that  confusion  will                                                               
result  from   not  considering   certain  other   amendments  as                                                               
alternatives  simultaneously.   He requested  that the  committee                                                               
consider Amendment 15  "in the nature of  potential amendments to                                                               
[Amendment] 13 or alternatives suggested."                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:00:41 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL, in  response  to  Chair Lynn,  suggested                                                               
sticking with Amendment  13 before moving on.   He announced that                                                               
he would be voting against both  Amendments 13 and 15, because he                                                               
indicated that  those amendments would make  "a greater standard"                                                               
than  what  the  initiative  provides.    Representative  Coghill                                                               
revised  his   original  statement,  saying  that   he  could  be                                                               
convinced to  vote for Amendment 13,  to "put it in  the bill and                                                               
then talk about it later."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN said that would also be his wish.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:02:08 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES removed his objection to Amendment 13.                                                                     
There being no further objection, Amendment 13 was adopted.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:02:30 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG moved to adopt Amendment 15, labeled                                                                   
25-GH1059\K.20, Cook/Wayne, 2/21/07, which read as follows:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 4, following "government;":                                                                                 
          Insert "relating to disclosure of information                                                                       
     about  certain  income  received  as  compensation  for                                                                  
     personal  services by  legislators,  public members  of                                                                  
     the  Select   Committee  on  Legislative   Ethics,  and                                                                  
     legislative directors;"                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Page 16, following line 8:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
        "* Sec. 22. AS 24.60.200 is amended to read:                                                                          
          Sec.    24.60.200.    Financial   disclosure    by                                                                  
     legislators,  public  members  of  the  committee,  and                                                                  
     legislative  directors. A  legislator, a  public member                                                                  
     of  the committee,  and  a  legislative director  shall                                                                    
     file a disclosure statement, under  oath and on penalty                                                                    
     of perjury,  with the Alaska Public  Offices Commission                                                                    
     giving  the  following  information  about  the  income                                                                    
     received by  the discloser,  the discloser's  spouse or                                                                    
     domestic partner,  the discloser's  dependent children,                                                                    
     and  the  discloser's  nondependent  children  who  are                                                                    
     living with the discloser:                                                                                                 
               (1)  the information that a public official                                                                      
     is required  to report  under AS 39.50.030,  other than                                                                    
     information about gifts;                                                                                                   
               (2)  as to income in excess of $1,000                                                                            
     received as compensation for  personal services, and as                                                                
     to  a  dividend  received   from  a  limited  liability                                                                
     company  as  compensation  for personal  services,  the                                                                
     name and  address of  the source of  the income,  and a                                                                    
     statement describing                                                                                                       
               (A)  the nature of the services performed,                                                               
     with sufficient  description to make clear  to a person                                                                
     of   ordinary  understanding   the  specific   services                                                                
     performed, unless  those services require  the issuance                                                                
     of  a  state  or   federal  professional  license;  for                                                                
     purposes of  this subparagraph,  "professional license"                                                                
     means a license required  for a profession regulated by                                                                
     the federal government or by a state;                                                                                  
               (B)  the approximate total number of hours                                                                   
     that have  been spent or  will be spent  performing the                                                                
     services; and                                                                                                          
               (C)  the amount of income received from the                                                                  
     source, if the  [; IF THE SOURCE OF INCOME  IS KNOWN OR                                                                
     REASONABLY  SHOULD  BE  KNOWN  TO  HAVE  A  SUBSTANTIAL                                                                    
     INTEREST IN  LEGISLATIVE, ADMINISTRATIVE,  OR POLITICAL                                                                    
     ACTION  AND   THE]  recipient  of   the  income   is  a                                                                    
     legislator  or legislative  director [,  THE AMOUNT  OF                                                                    
     INCOME RECEIVED FROM THE SOURCE SHALL BE DISCLOSED];                                                                       
               (3) as to each loan or loan guarantee over                                                                       
     $1,000  from a  source with  a substantial  interest in                                                                    
     legislative, administrative,  or political  action, the                                                                    
     name  and address  of  the person  making  the loan  or                                                                    
     guarantee,  the  amount  of the  loan,  the  terms  and                                                                    
     conditions  under  which  the  loan  or  guarantee  was                                                                    
     given, the  amount outstanding at  the time  of filing,                                                                    
     and whether or not a written loan agreement exists."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 9:                                                                                                           
          Delete "sec. 29"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 10:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 29"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 11:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 14:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 15:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 32"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 18:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 32"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 19:                                                                                                          
          Delete "22, and 26"                                                                                                   
          Insert "23, and 27"                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 20:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 33"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 34"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES objected for discussion purposes.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:03:10 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL objected to  Amendment 15, because he said                                                               
it would add  a significant amount of  language, while addressing                                                               
issues dealt with in Amendment  13, such as what specific service                                                               
was performed, the  total number of hours worked,  and the amount                                                               
of income received.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG  expressed  interest  in  dividing  the                                                               
question,  which would  separate  the portion  [of Amendment  15]                                                               
found on [page  1], lines 18-21, [as numbered  on the amendment],                                                               
from the rest of the amendment.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES  suggested that  "a better way  of addressing  the same                                                               
issue" would  be to change  the definition of "source  of income"                                                               
in [AS] 39.50.200.  He said  that would allow a limited liability                                                               
company  to be  included  among  the list  of  entities that  are                                                               
identified in that definition of source of income.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  said he agrees  that what Mr.  Jones is                                                               
expressing  needs to  be done  in Title  39, but  he thinks  that                                                               
something also needs to be done in Title 24.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES responded:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     It all  depends on where we  end up.  If,  because this                                                                    
     provision refers to Title 39,  and that stays the same,                                                                    
     then  I believe  that  the source  of income  reporting                                                                    
     requirement  under  Title  39   would  apply,  and  so,                                                                    
      therefore, the definitions that apply under Title 39                                                                      
     would also be applicable.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. MILES confirmed that is so.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:06:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said that may  be true from the point of                                                               
view of  an attorney and APOC;  however, he said, "This  is going                                                               
to  be  viewed by  a  whole  raft of  relatively  unsophisticated                                                               
people who  are running for the  legislature, and those of  us in                                                               
the legislature  may not be a  lot more sophisticated."   He said                                                               
he wants the language to be crystal clear.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:07:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  said  if  he  wants  to  find  out  what                                                               
"income"  is,  he looks  at  definitions,  not  in statute.    He                                                               
stated, "I  would suggest that  we take their suggestion  and put                                                               
it in the definitions."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG   responded,  "If  you  put   it  in  a                                                               
definition, it's got  to be in Title 24, because  very few people                                                               
are going to look at the reference  to Title 39, and then look in                                                               
the definition in Title 39.   That's asking more than most people                                                               
will  do."   He said  the average  person looks  directly to  the                                                               
statute, and he reemphasized his desire for clarity.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:08:40 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  remarked  that  he  thinks  the  average                                                               
person is going to call APOC rather than look in statute.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES concurred with Representative Johnson.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  said he has,  upon occasion, called APOC  for advice,                                                               
rather than look in statute.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:09:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN told  Representative Gruenberg  that he  would prefer                                                               
not to divide the question at this point.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG made mention  of the [new language added                                                               
in Amendment  15] at the  bottom of  the first page  [through the                                                               
top of  the second page  of the amendment].   He said  he doesn't                                                               
want  someone  who  is  filing  a disclosure  to  just  put  down                                                               
"consulting services," for example.   He emphasized that he wants                                                               
more specificity.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:11:25 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES  directed attention  to language on  page 2,                                                               
beginning on line  1, [as numbered on Amendment  15], which read,                                                               
"unless  those  services  require  the issuance  of  a  state  or                                                           
federal  professional  license".   He  said  that would  make  an                                                           
exclusion  for  an  entire   list  of  professionals,  including:                                                               
doctors, lawyers, surveyors, dentists, and  pilots.  He said that                                                               
creates a special class of citizenry.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:12:35 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOLL said  she interprets  the  language to  mean                                                               
that  people  who  have  licenses  don't  have  to  describe  the                                                               
specific  services  they   perform,  because  people  understand,                                                               
according to the license, what those professionals do.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL clarified:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     In the  amendment that we  passed previously,  we asked                                                                    
     that they describe  the work product in  detail and the                                                                    
     hours performed for it.   What we're attempting here is                                                                    
     to describe  what that detail  might look like.   ... I                                                                    
     think that  what we want  to do is have  everybody tell                                                                    
     us in detail what they did to get those services.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL restated his objection to Amendment 15.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:14:40 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVES ROSES and COGHILL maintained their objections.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:14:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG withdrew Amendment 15.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:15:24 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DOLL moved  to adopt  Amendment  14, labeled  25-                                                               
GH1059\K.17, Cook/Wayne, 2/21/07, which read as follows:                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Page 1, line 4, following "government;":                                                                                      
     Insert "restricting representation of others by legislators                                                              
and legislative employees;"                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 11, lines 9 - 17:                                                                                                     
          Delete all material and insert:                                                                                       
          "Sec. 24.60.100. Representation. A legislator or                                                                    
     legislative   employee    may   not    represent   [WHO                                                                
     REPRESENTS]  another person  for compensation  before a                                                                
     municipal,  legislative,   or  executive   branch  [AN]                                                                
     agency,  board, [OR]  commission, or  other entity  [OF                                                                
     THE  STATE  SHALL  DISCLOSE  THE  NAME  OF  THE  PERSON                                                                    
     REPRESENTED, THE SUBJECT  MATTER OF THE REPRESENTATION,                                                                    
     AND  THE BODY  BEFORE  WHICH THE  REPRESENTATION IS  TO                                                                    
     TAKE PLACE  TO THE  COMMITTEE. THE DISCLOSURE  SHALL BE                                                                    
     MADE  BY THE  DEADLINES  SET OUT  IN AS 24.60.105.  THE                                                                    
     COMMITTEE  SHALL   MAINTAIN  A   PUBLIC  RECORD   OF  A                                                                    
     DISCLOSURE   UNDER  THIS   SECTION   AND  FORWARD   THE                                                                    
     DISCLOSURE  TO THE  RESPECTIVE HOUSE  FOR INCLUSION  IN                                                                    
     THE JOURNAL.  A LEGISLATOR OR LEGISLATIVE  EMPLOYEE MAY                                                                    
     NOT  REPRESENT ANOTHER  PERSON FOR  COMPENSATION BEFORE                                                                    
     AN   AGENCY,  COMMITTEE,   OR  OTHER   ENTITY  OF   THE                                                                    
     LEGISLATIVE BRANCH]."                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 12, line 2:                                                                                                           
          Delete "matter, interest, or representation"                                                                  
          Insert "matter or interest [OR REPRESENTATION]"                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 12, lines 14 - 15:                                                                                                    
          Delete all material.                                                                                                  
          Insert "AS 24.60.070 [;                                                                                               
               (5)  REPRESENTATION OF A CLIENT UNDER                                                                            
     AS 24.60.100]."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL objected for discussion purposes.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG spoke to the amendment as follows:                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     ...  It doesn't  draw  the  distinction between  people                                                                    
     representing  them  before  the   agency  in  a  quasi-                                                                    
     legislative capacity or in a quasi-judicial capacity.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG offered examples.  He concluded, "It's                                                                 
much broader than the current situation, which just really                                                                      
requires disclosure."                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:17:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL removed his objection, stating that                                                                      
[Amendment 14] is "one of the brighter line issues."                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:18:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG objected to  Amendment 14.  He explained                                                               
through the following example:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     If  I have  a  family law  [practice],  for example,  I                                                                    
     can't take a case  before the child support enforcement                                                                    
     division  in dealing  with  child  support -  something                                                                    
     like that.   And it has  nothing at all to  do with the                                                                    
     legislative position.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
9:18:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  asked, "Is it  true that we would  keep a                                                               
lawyer from  going before  ... an  administrative law  judge ...?                                                               
If that's the case, maybe we do have a problem here."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:19:12 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
TOM  WRIGHT, Staff  to the  House Majority  Office, Alaska  State                                                               
Legislature,  surmised  that   Representative  John  Harris,  who                                                               
brought Amendment  14 to the committee  originally, intended that                                                               
the  amendment clarify  that a  legislator  cannot represent  any                                                               
client  for compensation  before any  state or  municipal entity,                                                               
without exception.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:20:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  opined  that  one of  the  duties  of  a                                                               
legislator is  to be  a good  ombudsman to  his/her constituents.                                                               
He  offered an  example whereby  a legislator  and his/her  staff                                                               
spend a  lot of time helping  a constituent.  In  that situation,                                                               
he said,  the staff  would be getting  compensated for  the work,                                                               
but that compensation would come from the legislature.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:21:10 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT  answered that's correct.   He  said, "We do  not want                                                               
to, in any way, ...  prevent a legislator or legislative employee                                                               
from doing  their constituent  work, and that's  why we  have the                                                               
'by compensation' in there."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:21:47 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WRIGHT,  in  response  to  a  question  from  Representative                                                               
Gruenberg, said  according to the  director of  Legislative Legal                                                               
and Research Services, there is  no definition of "other entity";                                                               
however, he explained that the  term is used to express something                                                               
other  than a  municipal, legislative,  executive branch  agency,                                                               
board, or commission.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:22:11 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  suggested   that  perhaps  the  language                                                               
proposed to be  deleted begins too soon and the  phrase should be                                                               
"other entity of the state".                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  asked if  Amendment 14 would  prevent a                                                               
legislator who is an attorney  from representing a person who has                                                               
had his/her animal confiscated by animal control.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
9:22:48 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT replied that he has no idea.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG suggested  that [animal  control] would                                                               
qualify as  a municipal agency,  and he  stated that he  does not                                                               
see any relationship between it and the legislature.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  WRIGHT  indicated  that  the language  in  Amendment  14  is                                                               
straightforward.    He  said  there  is  nothing  to  prohibit  a                                                               
legislator who is also a lawyer from going to court.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:23:41 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL moved  Amendment  1 to  Amendment 14,  to                                                               
delete "or other entity" on page  1, line 10, [as numbered on the                                                           
amendment].                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES  objected.    He said  he  has  no  problem                                                               
including "or other entity", as  long as those words are followed                                                           
by "of the state".                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:24:27 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT said, "I have no objection to that."                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:24:33 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  said that had been  his original thought;                                                               
however, he  pointed out  that within that  sentence is  the word                                                               
"municipal".   He  said it  may complicate  decisions related  to                                                           
municipalities  if the  language says,  "or other  entity of  the                                                               
state".                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:25:16 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHNSON    suggested   adding    "or   political                                                               
subdivision" so that the language would be all-inclusive.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:25:31 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JOYCE  ANDERSON, Administrator,  Select Committee  on Legislative                                                               
Ethics,  Legislative Agency  & Offices,  asked for  clarification                                                               
regarding the meaning of "other entity".                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT  reiterated that it  is a catch-all phrase  that could                                                               
relate, for  example, to  administrative hearings,  child support                                                               
cases, or hearing officers.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
9:26:55 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG said a  couple years ago the legislature                                                               
passed the  Administrative Law Judge  Act, and Article  II judges                                                               
were set  up as  official judges governed  by cannons  of ethics.                                                               
He asked:                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     What  conflict  of interest  is  there?   Why  prohibit                                                                    
     people from exercising a  very legitimate profession in                                                                    
     a  very private  dispute that  may involve  [a] dispute                                                                    
     getting  child support,  or  somebody's permanent  fund                                                                    
     [dividend, or] something like  that that really doesn't                                                                    
     have  any possibility  of any  undue interest?   What's                                                                    
     the public  policy in  telling that  the law  should go                                                                    
     this far?                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:28:01 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. WRIGHT responded, "The policy is  ... to take away any chance                                                               
of having  a conflict of interest  in ... a matter  such as this,                                                               
and to have  any undue influence over  budgets, legislation, [or]                                                               
whatever may occur."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:28:23 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL related an experience as follows:                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     When  I was  dealing with  several issues  ... [related                                                                    
     to] Child in Need  of Aid laws, I was asked  to go to a                                                                    
     particular hearing,  and I could tell  just my presence                                                                    
     was a  chill in the court.   And I withdrew,  because I                                                                    
     could just  tell that they  thought I was there  to ...                                                                    
     start  tinkering  with  law based  on  that  individual                                                                    
     case.   So,  just being  there was  problem, let  alone                                                                    
     knowing  somebody who  was going  to be  making law  in                                                                    
     that  same arena  representing  for  compensation.   ..                                                                    
     It's  an  interesting  question:     Should  a  guy  be                                                                    
     forbidden  to observe  law in  action?   Probably  not.                                                                    
     But if it  becomes a chill on that  particular event, I                                                                    
     think you're ... out of  bounds.  But ... having, then,                                                                    
     a sitting legislator or a  legislative employee ... who                                                                    
     is  already getting  paid to  superintend the  law, you                                                                    
     should do  that as a  matter of course, probably.   But                                                                    
     representing before  an administrative law judge  has a                                                                    
     very intimidating  effect, I  would think.   So,  ... I                                                                    
     think ... there is an ethical question there.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
9:30:24 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES removed his objection to Amendment 1 to                                                                    
Amendment 14.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN objected [to Amendment 1 to Amendment 14].                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 9:31:27 AM to 9:31:45 AM.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG stated that nobody wants to create a                                                                   
conflict of interest.  He continued:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     This amendment  - Amendment 14  and the  "other entity"                                                                    
     issue  - deal  with an  assumption that  because you're                                                                    
     going before an administrative  law judge, or something                                                                    
     like  that,  there's  going  to   be  a  conflict.    I                                                                    
     personally  think that  assumption  is no  more ...  or                                                                    
     less likely than people in  an entirely private sphere.                                                                    
     For example,  somebody may go  to a realtor  who serves                                                                    
     in the legislature  ... to sell their  house or conduct                                                                    
     other business  because they want  to curry  favor with                                                                    
     that legislator.   ...  I mean,  anybody that  does any                                                                    
     business or  sells something to  them [could]  sell ...                                                                    
     at a lower  price or give them a better  deal when they                                                                    
     purchase to  curry favor.   And you can't  ... prohibit                                                                    
     people  in  the  citizen  legislature  from  conducting                                                                    
     their own business.  We  don't live in glass bowls, and                                                                    
     with  all  due  respect,   we're  not  under  the  same                                                                    
     standard  as  judges,  who  are  really  very  strictly                                                                    
     prohibited from  doing anything like that  because they                                                                    
     adjudicate.   And it's a  slippery slope, and  once you                                                                    
     prevent  people from  conducting unrelated  things ...,                                                                    
     it's  not very  long before  you start  looking at  the                                                                    
     other business  dealings any  of us have  to do  in our                                                                    
     private affairs.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  disclosed that he  is a licensed real  estate broker,                                                               
but is on referral status.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES,  as  a  point  of  order,  said  what  the                                                               
committee just heard  was a debate on Amendment 14,  but what the                                                               
committee has  before it  currently is  Amendment 1  to Amendment                                                               
14.                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
A  roll call  vote was  taken.   Representatives Roses,  Coghill,                                                               
Johansen, Johnson,  and Gruenberg voted  in favor of  Amendment 1                                                               
to Amendment  14.   Representatives Doll  and Lynn  voted against                                                               
it.   Therefore, Amendment  1 to  Amendment 14  was adopted  by a                                                               
vote of 5-2.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:35:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GRUENBERG maintained  his objection  to Amendment                                                               
14 [as amended].                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
A  roll call  vote was  taken.   Representatives Roses,  Coghill,                                                               
Johansen, Johnson,  and Lynn voted  in favor of Amendment  14, as                                                               
amended.   Representatives Gruenberg  and Doll voted  against it.                                                               
Therefore, Amendment 14, as amended, was  adopted by a vote of 5-                                                               
2.                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 9:37:12 AM to 9:37:23 AM.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:38:17 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  moved to  adopt Amendment 17,  which read                                                               
as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Page 16, line 9.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Insert:                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     (a)  A  person required to file  a disclosure statement                                                                    
     under  AS 24.60.200  shall file  an annual  report with                                                                    
     the  Alaska  Public  Offices Commission,  covering  the                                                                    
     previous  calendar  year,  containing  the  disclosures                                                                    
     required  by AS  25.60.200, on  or before  March 14  of                                                                    
     each year, except that a  legislator appointed under AS                                                                
     15.40.320-   15.40.320,   a   public  member   of   the                                                                
     committee, and a legislative  director must file within                                                                
     30 days after the person's initial appointment.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  asked if Amendment 17  was an amendment                                                               
that [the subcommittee] considered and rejected.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL confirmed it was not.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:39:07 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG objected to  Amendment 17 for discussion                                                               
purposes.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:39:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ANDERSON said  currently statute  has  no "teeth"  regarding                                                               
financial  disclosures filed  by legislators,  public members  of                                                               
the  Select  Committee  on Legislative  Ethics,  and  legislative                                                               
directors  and a  March 15  deadline.   She clarified,  "So, what                                                               
this is doing  is actually putting in statute  what past practice                                                               
has been with APOC."                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
9:41:50 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ANDERSON,  in response  to  a  question from  Representative                                                               
Gruenberg, clarified  that Amendment  17 addresses those  who are                                                               
new to the legislature.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
9:42:10 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG removed his objection to Amendment 17.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:42:21 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LYNN  announced that  there  being  no further  objection,                                                               
Amendment 17 was adopted.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:42:29 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ROSES moved  to adopt  Amendment 18,  labeled 25-                                                               
GH1059\K.19, Cook/Wayne, 2/21/07, which read as follows:                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     Page 1, line 4, following "government;":                                                                                 
          Insert "relating to disclosures by legislators,                                                                     
     public members  of the Select Committee  on Legislative                                                                  
     Ethics, and legislative directors;"                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 16, following line 8:                                                                                                 
          Insert a new bill section to read:                                                                                    
        "* Sec. 22. AS 24.60.210 is amended to read:                                                                          
          Sec.   24.60.210.   Deadlines    for   filing   of                                                                  
     disclosure statements. (a) A  person required to file a                                                                  
     disclosure statement  under AS 24.60.200 shall  file an                                                                    
     annual   report   with   the  Alaska   Public   Offices                                                                    
     Commission,  covering   the  previous   calendar  year,                                                                    
     containing  the disclosures  required by  AS 24.60.200,                                                                    
     on or  before March 15 of  each year. On or  before the                                                                
     90th  day  after  ending service  as  a  legislator  or                                                                
     legislative   director,   a    former   legislator   or                                                                
     legislative director shall file  with the Alaska Public                                                                
     Offices Commission a  report containing the disclosures                                                                
     required by  AS 24.60.200, covering any period  of that                                                                
     service  for   which  the  legislator   or  legislative                                                                
     director has not already filed a report.                                                                               
          (b)  Notwithstanding (a) of this section, a                                                                           
     public  member  and  a public  member  nominee  of  the                                                                    
     committee shall  file an annual report  with the Alaska                                                                    
     Public  Offices   Commission,  covering   the  previous                                                                    
     calendar year,  containing the disclosures  required by                                                                    
     AS 24.60.200,  on  or  before   the  second  Monday  in                                                                    
     January of each  year. On or before the  90th day after                                                                
     ending  service  on  the  committee,  a  former  public                                                                
     member  of the  committee  shall file  with the  Alaska                                                                
     Public  Offices  Commission  a  report  containing  the                                                                
     disclosures  required  by  AS 24.60.200,  covering  any                                                                
     period of that service for  which the public member has                                                                
     not already filed a report."                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Renumber the following bill sections accordingly.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 9:                                                                                                           
          Delete "sec. 29"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 10:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 29"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 11:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 14:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 30"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 15:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 32"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 18:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 31"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 32"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 19:                                                                                                          
          Delete "22, and 26"                                                                                                   
          Insert "23, and 27"                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Page 22, line 20:                                                                                                          
          Delete "sec. 33"                                                                                                      
          Insert "sec. 34"                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL objected.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
9:43:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES  proffered that although  Amendment 18 is  a "wonderful                                                               
idea,"  its intent  is covered  by an  existing provision  of the                                                               
bill, which makes Amendment 18  unnecessary.  He explained that a                                                               
better,  more  comprehensive version  of  the  language that  the                                                               
governor originally  proposed appears in  Section 15, on  page 12                                                               
of Version K.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL maintained his objection.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ROSES withdrew his motion to adopt Amendment 18.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
9:45:59 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL moved to adopt Amendment 19.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL objected.  He offered his understanding                                                                  
that "this is already existing practice."                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:46:48 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ANDERSON related  that the  Select Committee  on Legislative                                                               
Ethics issued  an advisory  opinion on December  9, [2006].   She                                                               
continued:                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     That was the first time  the question had been asked of                                                                    
     the  Ethics  Committee  about whether  legislators  who                                                                    
     leave   office  should   be  filing   either  financial                                                                    
     disclosures  as well  as  ethics  disclosures, and  the                                                                    
     advisory opinion did  look at that issue  and felt that                                                                    
     the   language  in   the  statute   did  require   that                                                                    
     information.   So, all of  the 12  outgoing legislators                                                                    
     were notified by letter that  they needed to file their                                                                    
     financial   disclosure,   as   well   as   any   ethics                                                                    
     disclosures.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     I  would agree  with  Representative  Coghill; I  don't                                                                    
     feel that this particular amendment is necessary.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:47:34 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DOLL withdrew her motion to adopt Amendment 19.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:48:42 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL  said Amendment 20 addresses  the question                                                               
of  what  is and  is  not  significant  in "reporting,"  and  the                                                               
amendment addresses  the issue  of blind  trusts.   He emphasized                                                               
that it is  a significant issue, and he stated  that he is merely                                                               
bringing up  discussion of  the amendment  because at  present he                                                               
does not want to accept the language.   He said he would like Mr.                                                               
Jones to explain  "how hard it might  be to put a  blind trust in                                                               
the insignificant part of reporting."                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
9:49:30 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. JONES remarked:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Of course, the  purpose of a blind trust is  to place a                                                                    
     legislator['s] or  other public official's  interest in                                                                    
     confidential  status, so  that the  public official  or                                                                    
     legislator  does not  know what's  in the  blind trust,                                                                    
     thereby removing the potential  conflict of interest or                                                                    
     appearance  of conflict  of  interest  when the  public                                                                    
     official or  legislator takes official action  that may                                                                    
     affect the  interests that are  held in a  blind trust.                                                                    
     If  you don't  know  that it's  going  to benefit  your                                                                    
     interests  that are  held  in a  blind  trust, then  of                                                                    
     course  your interests  couldn't have  been the  reason                                                                    
     that you  took that initial  action.  ... The  devil is                                                                    
     in  the   details,  in  trying   to  come  up   with  a                                                                    
     description  of what  would be  an effect  blind trust,                                                                    
     without  making  those  restrictions so  tight  that  a                                                                    
     blind trust is effectively  unavailable to anybody that                                                                    
     wants to use one to serve in a public capacity.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  JONES said  he  has discussed  with  members of  legislative                                                               
staff, various  versions of new  restrictions that  would tighten                                                               
up  the requirements  for  blind  trusts under  Alaska  law.   He                                                               
stated his  belief, as indicated by  Representative Coghill, that                                                               
there is still work to be done on the issue.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:51:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PAUL SEATON, Alaska State Legislature, said it's                                                                 
a fundamental policy call whether or not to allow blind trusts.                                                                 
He continued:                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     My concern  is that the  current language that  we have                                                                    
     in  Alaska Statute  is:    A blind  trust  that is  ...                                                                    
     essentially ripe for ethics  problems, because it's not                                                                    
     tight enough,  it doesn't  explain things  well enough,                                                                    
     [and] it  does not fulfill  the purpose that we  want a                                                                    
     blind trust to fulfill.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     If the committee decides that  we want to allow a blind                                                                    
     trust for those people in  the executive branch, a good                                                                    
     example  would  be  the commissioner  of  revenue,  who                                                                    
     might come into that position  having a large 401 K, or                                                                    
     those  kind[s]  of  assets,  to  be  able  to  regulate                                                                    
     without trying  to -- I  mean especially if we  go down                                                                    
     to  $1,000 limit,  all of  a  sudden it  would be  very                                                                    
     difficult for  them to have their  investment and still                                                                    
     function in  the government.   So,  the purpose  of the                                                                    
     blind  trust  is, as  you've  discussed,  to allow  the                                                                    
     person  to  fulfill  the  government  function  without                                                                    
     having to have any concern  and, in fact, any knowledge                                                                    
     of ... what they have in that trust.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     And so,  you have another  amendment that we  worked on                                                                    
     quite a bit,  which I think is Amendment  22, that goes                                                                    
     into that in detail.   What we've done is patterned off                                                                    
     the  New  Jersey  statute to  bring  all  those  things                                                                    
     forward that  worked, to make  our blind  trust statute                                                                    
     work for not  only the citizens of the  state, but also                                                                    
     work for the individual, so  that when they come in and                                                                    
     if they establish a blind  trust, then it will be truly                                                                    
     blind, and  they will be  protected because  they won't                                                                    
     know what's in that blind  trust.  ... [It] establishes                                                                    
     a parameter.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     So,  I think  that this  amendment isn't  the amendment                                                                    
     that I've worked on and  offered, but the whole idea of                                                                    
     the blind  trust -  whether we want  to have  that tool                                                                    
     available or not  - is a discussion  this committee has                                                                    
     to have.   And if  we want to  have the blind  trust, I                                                                    
     think  that we  want  to have  a  very effective  blind                                                                    
     trust that serves a purpose of the state.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:53:56 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN  asked for committee  members' feedback as  to whether                                                               
they would like to address Amendment 20 or 22.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
9:54:18 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG  observed that there appear  to be three                                                               
amendments on the subject.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  COGHILL  indicated  that  he had  asked  for  the                                                               
involvement  of  the  House Judiciary  Standing  Committee.    He                                                               
commented  that if  the House  State  Affairs Standing  Committee                                                               
wants  to spend  the time  discussing the  blind trust  issue, it                                                               
will take considerable time.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
9:55:19 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GRUENBERG recommended  that the committee consider                                                               
[Amendments 20, 21,  and 22] side by side at  its next hearing of                                                               
the bill.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
9:55:46 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE COGHILL concurred with  the idea of a side-by-side                                                               
comparison.   He said Representative  Seaton has brought  up some                                                               
good points to consider.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:56:26 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR LYNN announced that HB 109 [was heard and held].                                                                          

Document Name Date/Time Subjects