Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/13/2003 08:07 AM Senate JUD
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
TAPE 03-46, SIDE B
HB 102-CONCEALED DEADLY WEAPONS
OFFICER MIKE COUTURIER, representing the Anchorage Police
Employees Association, stated support for the proposed changes
[in Version Q]. Peace officers support anything that provides
them with a better tool to ensure everyone's safety through more
detailed instruction about what to do when contacted by peace
officers.
SENATOR FRENCH asked Officer Couturier who would be educating
the public about the bill requirements regarding notification
before entering a home with a concealed handgun or notifying
police officers that one is carrying a concealed handgun.
OFFICER COUTURIER said the trainer would inform anyone obtaining
a concealed carry permit if this bill passes. The majority of
people handling concealed weapons receive their training [during
the permit process]. He said he believes once a person has a
concealed carry permit, that person would be on a mailing list
for updates to any changes to the state law. He said:
As far as a person that owns a residence that happens
to have a guest that happens to be carrying a weapon,
and the homeowner, knowing that the person is supposed
to provide them with that information, that's part of
the onus that we all share in educating the public on
current law and changes to the law. And partially as a
responsible citizen of the state we all have a
responsibility, of course, to know what the laws are
and to obey them. Certainly some public forum of TV or
municipal channels would assist in educating the
public and those are the options that I see.
SENATOR FRENCH said it sounds like Officer Couturier is assuming
the instructional courses under the current system would
continue and it is through those courses that people would learn
the provisions of the law. He said he is skeptical because he
believes this bill will repeal the need for a permit and make it
less likely that someone will spend the money to take a class.
CHAIR SEEKINS remarked that a person would still need a permit
if he or she wants to carry a concealed weapon outside of the
state because a person will not have reciprocity without a
permit. In addition, a person with a permit can buy a handgun
without the waiting period because the necessary background
check has already been done. Therefore, it is still beneficial
to take the training classes to get the actual carry permit.
This bill will not make criminals out of people who wear a
jacket over a weapon when they are carrying it legally. He said
he would imagine that gun shops, the NRA, and outdoor
organizations will do everything they can to educate the general
public. It will not be required by statute, but if this law is
to work, those organizations know it is incumbent upon them to
educate the public.
OFFICER COUTURIER said he needed to back up because when he read
the bill he did not read anything that said permits would no
longer be required.
CHAIR SEEKINS replied, "You can carry concealed now without a
permit - if you do so in a lawful manner."
SENATOR FRENCH read, to clarify the nature of the bill for
Officer Couturier, the following excerpt from the sponsor
statement:
HB 102 repeals the concealed carry laws that require
permits to carry deadly weapons, including handguns,
knives and other legal-to-own deadly weapons. It does
not repeal any of the restrictions on where a person
can carry a concealed weapon, such as on school
grounds, in courthouses or on private property, where
the owner may prohibit such weapons.
CHAIR SEEKINS noted the third paragraph reads:
It does not eliminate the state's concealed carry
permit program for two reasons.
OFFICER COUTURIER apologized and said he did not have the
sponsor statement. He said the support of his organization might
not be as strong because the Anchorage Police Department
Employees Association certainly feels the need, prior to
contacting someone - whether that be on a traffic stop or just
contacting them on the street, to know ahead of time or upon
recontact that the person has a concealed carry permit. He said
if there were no system that allows the peace officer to know a
person has a concealed carry permit, he would not know whether
or not the carrier is violating. The Association feels the
concealed carry program provides a valuable tool that the police
department uses daily.
SENATOR FRENCH said he believes one valid reason for this bill
is that it is difficult for people who live in the Bush to
qualify for a concealed carry permit because the courses are
only taught in metropolitan areas. He suggested it might be
possible to offer the information that the peace officers want
conveyed to people before they are allowed to carry a concealed
weapon through either an Internet session or a correspondence
course.
OFFICER COUTURIER said his organization feels it is very
important to have this tool as it makes contact safer; they
would hate to lose this tool.
SENATOR FRENCH commented there may be some way to lower the
level of qualification to get a concealed carry weapon permit,
still convey the information, and allow law enforcement to have
some knowledge of who has a concealed carry weapon permit.
CHAIR SEEKINS indicated the State of Vermont has this law; that
state has one of the lowest crime rates in the nation.
SENATOR OGAN said the police officers he spoke with were
supportive of the concealed carry law because they felt, "Well,
the bad guys are all packing, we might as well let the good guys
pack too." He noted when a person is stopped the police officer
runs their identification through the APSIN system, which
contains criminal records. He said it seems if a police officer
runs a check on a person and finds they have a clean record, the
police officer would feel there is some reasonable amount of
certainty the person is not going to be a threat.
OFFICER COUTURIER said that is a reasonable assumption but we
live in a world of exceptions. He said it is just a matter of
having another tool in the peace officer's tool bag to approach
each situation in the safest way possible.
CHAIR SEEKINS thanked Officer Couturier.
9:15 a.m.
SERGEANT DAVE PARKER, Anchorage Police Department, told members
he was contacted the previous day about this legislation. One of
his concerns is that this bill will put honorable gun owning
citizens in a higher risk situation. He understands there will
be an effort to provide education on the concealed carry laws,
particularly about when a person can use lethal force. However,
having trained concealed carry permit applicants for three
years, he has found [the police department] is able to do a much
more thorough job of teaching about when lethal force can be
used and about the laws surrounding the use of force. If this
concealed carry bill is enacted, he is concerned that people
will be acting in ignorance. He would hate to see gun owners get
into trouble because they do not know the law. He said the
police department has no problems with concealed carry permit
gun owners because they have undergone the necessary education
to get the permit. He likened the process to getting a driver's
license.
MR. PARKER said carrying a concealed weapon in the Bush is not
the problem; problems occur in the high-density urban areas. He
said the current law is a good one. If the law is changed, the
good citizens will be the ones who have problems.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked Mr. Judy to inform committee members about
the State of Vermont's experience with this law.
MR. BRIAN JUDY, National Rifle Association, said the State of
Vermont is the one state without a prohibition on concealed
carry of weapons. According to FBI statistics, the State of
Vermont consistently falls near the bottom of the list of states
in terms of crime. Last year, Vermont ranked 49th out of the 50
states in violent crime. He said the law is working well; law-
abiding citizens are not causing problems. He pointed out in
Alaska, one does not need a permit to carry a firearm openly,
nor is a permit required if a concealed firearm is being carried
for a lawful outdoor activity. Therefore, a fairly wide segment
of people are already carrying firearms without undergoing
training. Under existing law, a person who is dressed in a
manner that is not compatible with open carry is required to go
through the government program, pay fees, be fingerprinted, and
get on a government database merely to cover the firearm.
Regarding the training issue, he told members in the large
number of states with concealed carry permit laws, the required
training runs the gamut; Vermont is one extreme. Washington has
a concealed carry permit law with no training requirement for
law-abiding citizens. Washington has approximately 250,000
licensed permit holders. Washington has no problems with those
permit holders. The empirical evidence in all states shows that
concealed weapons permit holders are not causing problems. He
pointed out that Alaska experienced a significant reduction in
violent crime after its concealed weapons permit law was
enacted. He told members the NRA supports HB 102, as it believes
it is good public policy.
CHAIR SEEKINS said as a young man, he was a resident of the
State of Washington. At that time, he had a concealed carry
weapon permit to carry a 22 rifle for hunting. He said all he
needed was a good reason for the State of Washington to issue
the permit. He asked if that is still the case.
MR. JUDY said a person does not have to provide a reason in the
State of Washington, similar to the current law in Alaska.
Issuance of a permit is mandatory for law-abiding citizens who
can lawfully own a firearm.
CHAIR SEEKINS asked if he, as a permit holder, would be covered
if he puts a revolver in the console of his truck but his wife
would be breaking the law if she unknowingly borrowed his truck
with the gun in it.
SENATOR OGAN said the officer who last testified said it is
legal to carry a concealed weapon in one's automobile right now.
SENATOR FRENCH pointed out that in the April 4, 2003 letter Mr.
Brady sent to Representative Croft about the 1995 changes to the
concealed carry weapons law, he wrote, "Opponents screamed
hysterically that blood would run in the streets." He asked
whether that really happened or whether it was rhetorical
flourish.
MR. JUDY said that was not rhetorical flourish. In 1993 or 1994,
when HB 351 was initially introduced, people made hysterical
claims and predictions. He still has the white paper done by
certain members of the law enforcement community in which they
predicted traffic stops turning into shoot-outs. He said those
were the kinds of claims being made in other states in the 1980s
that were making the same public policy change. In every single
state, the empirical evidence showed that was not happening. He
said that "bad" guys are going to continue to cause problems
regardless of the level of training.
SENATOR OGAN said he believes Switzerland requires all citizens
to be in the military. After they get out of the military, they
take their weapons and uniforms with them and can be called back
at any time. He said that Switzerland has virtually no crime.
CHAIR SEEKINS said when he visited Switzerland he was told that
policy has kept Switzerland neutral for many years.
SENATOR OGAN moved CSHB 102(STA), \Q version, with individual
recommendations and attached zero fiscal note.
SENATOR FRENCH objected.
The motion carried with Senators Ellis, Ogan, Therriault, and
Seekins in favor, and Senator French opposed.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|