04/27/2021 08:00 AM House COMMUNITY & REGIONAL AFFAIRS

               HB 11-DEFENSIVE DISPLAY OF FIREARM                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:45:32 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  SCHRAGE  announced that  the  final  order of  business                                                               
would be  HOUSE BILL NO. 11,  "An Act relating to  assault in the                                                               
third   and   fourth   degrees;    and   relating   to   reckless                                                               
endangerment."                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
8:45:53 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GEORGE  RAUSCHER,  Alaska State  Legislature,  as                                                               
prime sponsor,  offered the  sponsor statement  for HB  11, which                                                               
read as follows [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
       Article 1, Section 19 of the Alaska Constitution,                                                                        
     among the declaration of rights enshrines the right of                                                                     
     Alaskans to keep and bear arms.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     "A  well-regulated  militia   being  necessary  to  the                                                                    
     security of  a free state,  the right of the  people to                                                                    
     keep  and  bear  arms  shall   not  be  infringed.  The                                                                    
     individual right  to keep  and bear  arms shall  not be                                                                    
     denied  or  infringed  by  the  State  or  a  political                                                                    
     subdivision of the State."                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     House Bill  11 is an  effort to preserve  these rights,                                                                    
     and protect  individuals acting in a  manner in defense                                                                    
     of  self,  defense  of  a third  party  or  defense  of                                                                    
     property  and premises,  from  arrest when  defensively                                                                    
     displaying a firearm.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Current  law allows  for police  to arrest  individuals                                                                    
     who display  a weapon  defensively for third  or fourth                                                                    
     degree  assault,  or  for reckless  endangerment.  This                                                                    
     bill  would   exclude  the  provisions  of   the  above                                                                    
     mentioned offenses  against a person if  the individual                                                                    
     displays a weapon in a defensive manner.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     The  bill  continues  to define  defensive  display  as                                                                    
     follows:                                                                                                                   
          ?  Openly   wearing,  carrying  or   possessing  a                                                                    
     firearm                                                                                                                    
             Verbally   informing  another  person   of  the                                                                    
     possession of a firearm                                                                                                    
          ? Holding  a firearm in  a position that  does not                                                                    
     point the firearm directly at another person                                                                               
          ? Displaying  a firearm to dissuade  a threatening                                                                    
     person                                                                                                                     
          ? Warning another person of  the availability of a                                                                    
     firearm to dissuade a threat by the other person                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     House Bill 11 will protect  the rights of Alaskans from                                                                    
     the  unnecessary  arrests  and expense  of  claiming  a                                                                    
     justification  defense, when  they  merely displayed  a                                                                    
     firearm, and  did not  act in a  manner that  is beyond                                                                    
     definition in the bill.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     I  urge  your support  for  this  bill to  protect  the                                                                    
     rights of Alaskans to bear arms in a defensive manner.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
8:49:00 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JESSE LOGAN, Staff, Representative George Rauscher, Alaska State                                                                
Legislature, offered a sectional analysis for HB 11 on behalf of                                                                
Representative Rauscher,  prime sponsor.  The  sectional analysis                                                               
read as follow [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section 1 Excludes defensive display of a firearm from                                                                     
     the violations of third degree assault.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Section 2 Excludes defensive display of a firearm from                                                                     
     the violations of fourth degree assault.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Section 3 Excludes defensive display of a firearm from                                                                     
     the violations of reckless endangerment.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     Section 4 Defines defensive display of a firearm.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
      Section 5 Defines the applicability of the bill and                                                                       
      offenses to only those committed after the effective                                                                      
     date.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOGAN  said third  degree assault  means to  recklessly place                                                               
another person in  fear of imminent serious injury by  means of a                                                               
dangerous  instrument; it  is a  Class  C felony  that carries  a                                                               
penalty of up to  five years in prison and up  to a $50,000 fine.                                                               
He said  fourth degree  assault is a  Class A  misdemeanor, which                                                               
carries with  it a fine of  up to $10,000  and up to one  year in                                                               
jail.   Reckless endangerment is  also a Class A  misdemeanor, he                                                               
noted.   He  said anyone  allowed carry  a firearm  can carry  it                                                               
opened or  concealed.   An "open  carry" can  be seen  by others.                                                               
Regarding  concealed carry,  Mr. Logan  said the  question before                                                               
the committee  is:  "How do  you communicate that to  a perceived                                                               
threat?"    He  said  19  states  allow  "permit-less  carry"  or                                                               
concealed carry; only  5 of those states have  determined "how to                                                               
communicate that."   He indicated  that no [states]  have defined                                                               
"brandishing," although  there is federal code  pertaining to the                                                               
term.   He paraphrased the  definition of "brandishing"  found in                                                               
Merriam Websters  Dictionary, which read  as follows:   "to shake                                                             
or wave (something, such as a weapon) menacingly."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LOGAN directed  attention to  Section  4 [page  1, line  13,                                                               
through page 2, line  6], which he said offers a  list of what is                                                               
included under "defensive display of  a firearm."  He warned that                                                               
in law, anything not included on  the list "is considered to have                                                               
been excluded on  purpose"; therefore, he urged  the committee to                                                               
consider  creating a  committee substitute  that would  provide a                                                               
definition instead of a list.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOGAN named two  scenarios:  One is a person  at home and the                                                               
other is a  person in public; both perceive a  threat.  He asked,                                                               
"How do you communicate to that  perceived threat that you have a                                                               
deadly weapon  and you're  willing to  use it?"   He  then asked,                                                               
"Without that definition of communication,  what's the purpose of                                                               
having [a] concealed weapon?"                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
8:52:25 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE  noted that before President  Joe Biden was                                                               
elected, he  had talked about taking  a shotgun out to  his porch                                                               
and shooting  a couple rounds.   Representative McCabe  said that                                                               
in  Alaska, a  person who  fires a  shotgun from  the porch  at a                                                               
person  "coming at"  the house  would be  arrested by  the Alaska                                                               
State Troopers for "brandishing and  scaring a person."  He asked                                                               
whether HB 11 would "make that legal."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOGAN answered,  "No, I don't think there's  a scenario where                                                               
you  fire a  weapon in  any direction  that's going  to be  okay,                                                               
except for  in defense of  a deadly  threat."  He  indicated that                                                               
[HB  11]  "goes   into  the  definitional  of  ...   how  do  you                                                               
communicate it?"                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE  remarked that if  the person on  the porch                                                               
announced,  "I have  a shotgun,"  then that  would be  considered                                                               
brandishing under  Alaska law.  He  said the same would  apply to                                                               
someone  stepping  outside his/her  car  and  saying, "I  have  a                                                               
pistol."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
8:54:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR HANNAN questioned whether the  bill sponsor had heard of                                                               
situations where an individual was  apprehended solely for having                                                               
a weapon on  the porch rather than also being  a case of domestic                                                               
violence,  for  example, where  the  gun  is  being used  by  the                                                               
husband to remind the wife to  behave.  She explained that she is                                                               
curious   whether   "we    are   prosecuting   those   statements                                                               
exclusively, in isolation from ... the charge of threat."                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAUSCHER replied  that his  office has  contacted                                                               
law enforcement  and is "asking  for those" but has  not received                                                               
the information, which he said  he would provide to the committee                                                               
once received.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOGAN, regarding  Co-Chair Hannan's example, said  he did not                                                               
think that would  be considered defensive.  He said  he thinks it                                                               
would be an  offensive display of a weapon -  a situation he said                                                               
he thinks  HB 11  does not seek  to address.   He noted  that the                                                               
bill  sponsor's office  had  spoken with  the  Department of  Law                                                               
(DOL) to  ensure that domestic  violence cases "are not  [in] any                                                               
way altered with this."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR HANNAN  said she understands, but  also understands that                                                               
no  bills change  what is  in the  Constitution of  the State  of                                                               
Alaska  regarding the  right of  Alaskans to  own legal  weapons.                                                               
She  indicated  the issue  is  crafting  the distinction  between                                                               
"where's the problem?"  and "what's really happening?"   She said                                                               
theoretically   Alaska   State   Troopers  could   be   arresting                                                               
individuals for saying,  "I have a gun."  She  said she has never                                                               
heard  of that  happening,  and she  has  carried and  advertised                                                               
carrying a  concealed weapon and  permit to carry, both  of which                                                               
must  be professed  to law  enforcement immediately  upon getting                                                               
pulled over.   She  said she  is looking for  the problem,  not a                                                               
theoretical problem that may take place  in the future.  She said                                                               
in many  cases of  domestic violence, the  threats have  not been                                                               
carried  out,  which is  what  makes  so  many  of the  cases  so                                                               
challenging.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAUSCHER  reiterated  that information  would  be                                                               
forthcoming from DOL.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
8:58:14 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCARTY said he knows  of cases where people said,                                                               
"I've got  a firearm;  back off"  and were  arrested.   He talked                                                               
about the dialogue as compared to the outcome of a court case.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER suggested that  if what is acceptable and                                                               
what is not  acceptable are defined, then a person  does not have                                                               
to  go to  court to  prove  whether or  not what  he/she did  was                                                               
acceptable.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  MCCARTY  distinguished  between someone  using  a                                                               
firearm to  get someone out of  the house as compared  to someone                                                               
trespassing  on  property  and the  property  owner  telling  the                                                               
trespasser he/she has  a firearm.  He said he  has heard of cases                                                               
where "people  were arrested"  and yet  "the perpetrator  was not                                                               
the person on the porch - it's the person who's trespassing."                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
9:01:05 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  LOGAN said  he does  not have  any statistics  on "how  many                                                               
times this  happened in Alaska"  but said there are  thousands of                                                               
cases  across  the country  where  someone  has had  a  concealed                                                               
weapon, showed the weapon to a  person harassing them in the next                                                               
lane, and got arrested.  He  said "we" have guns, but asked, "How                                                               
do we dispel a threat without using it?"                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
9:01:52 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MCCABE said he has  carried a concealed weapon for                                                               
years and  has been  an officer  of the  law.   He said,  "We are                                                               
always taught, if you pull your weapon,  you have to use it."  He                                                               
opined, "An  armed society is  a polite society."   He said  if a                                                               
person instigates verbal  conflict and must pull  his/her gun and                                                               
take action,  then that person  is at  fault.  He  countered that                                                               
sometimes  a person  will "go  after"  a polite  person, and  the                                                               
polite person  cannot let the  offensive person know  that he/she                                                               
has a weapon without risking a  felony or Class A misdemeanor for                                                               
brandishing a weapon.   Being able to announce the  presence of a                                                               
gun to  deescalate a  situation may fill  "a gap,"  he suggested.                                                               
He indicated  that [HB 11]  makes sense to  him.  He  said people                                                               
might abuse  it, but the  proposed bill is  "kind of a  hole that                                                               
has been needed for many, many years."                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
9:04:22 AM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR   SCHRAGE  asked   for   distinction  between   verbally                                                               
informing  another person  of  the possession  of  a firearm  and                                                               
warning  another  person of  the  availability  of a  firearm  to                                                               
dissuade a threat by the other person.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. LOGAN suggested changes may be  needed to the language of the                                                               
CS and advised the language be made specific.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR SCHRAGE  said he  thinks that how  a person  relates the                                                               
existence of  a fire arm  is important.   He explained,  "I think                                                               
informing someone  that you  have a  gun may  not cause  the same                                                               
issues as  informing someone and  conveying an intent  to utilize                                                               
that gun, and so I think there's  some nuance to be worked out in                                                               
this bill."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
[HB 11 was held over.]