HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE February 17, 1994 3:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair Rep. Al Vezey Rep. Pete Kott Rep. Harley Olberg Rep. Bettye Davis Rep. Irene Nicholia Rep. Tom Brice MEMBERS ABSENT None COMMITTEE CALENDAR *HB 299: "An Act relating to education programs on consumption of alcohol and to revocation of a driver's license for illegal consumption of alcohol; and providing for an effective date." PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE *HB 417: "An Act relating to the possession of deadly weapons within the grounds of or on the parking lot of preschools, elementary, junior high, and secondary schools; and relating to school lockers and other containers provided in a public or private school by the school or the school district." HEARD AND HELD *HB 418: "An Act extending the termination fate of the Board of Parole; and providing for and effective date." PASSED OUT OF COMMITTEE (* First public hearing.) WITNESS REGISTER SAM RUSSELL, Student C/O Juneau/Douglas High School 10014 Crazy Horse Dr. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-1900 Position Statement: Testified in support of CSHB 299 MARGOT KNUTH Assistant Attorney General Department of Law P.O. Box 110300 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0300 Phone: (907) 465-4049 Position Statement: Answered legal questions on CSHB 299 KAI MORRISON, Student Juneau/Douglas High School 10014 Crazy Horse Dr. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-1900 Position Statement: Testified in support of CSHB 299 JUANITA HENSLEY Chief of Driver Services Division of Motor Vehicles Department of Public Safety P.O. Box 20020 Juneau, Alaska 99802-0020 Phone: (907) 225-4335 Position Statement: Answered questions on CSHB 299 ALISHA HECK, Student Juneau/Douglas High School 10014 Crazy Horse Dr. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-1900 Position Statement: Testified in support of CSHB 299 JESSE GEMMELL, Student Juneau/Douglas High School 10014 Crazy Horse Dr. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-1900 Position Statement: Testified in support of CSHB 299 VERNON MARSHALL, Executive Director National Education Association/Alaska 114 Second St. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 586-3090 Position Statement: Testified in support of CSHB 299 JAIME MARKS, Representative National Council on Alcoholism/Juneau 211 4th St. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-3755 Position Statement: Testified in support of CSHB 299 JERRY LUCKHAUPT, Attorney Legislative Legal Counsel Legislative Affairs Agency 130 Seward St. Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 465-2450 Position Statement: Answered legal questions on CSHB 417 BILL CRAIG, Interim President Alaska Native Blind 613 Degroff St. Sitka, Alaska 99835 Phone: (907) 747-5917 Position Statement: Asked questions on CSHB 417 NANNETTE GAY, Intern Rep. Bettye Davis Alaska State Legislature State Capitol Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 465-3875 Position Statement: Testified in support of HB 418 PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 299 SHORT TITLE: DRIVER'S LIC REVOCATION;ALCOHOL/DRUGS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) TOOHEY,Bunde,Mulder JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 05/06/93 1664 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 05/06/93 1664 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 02/17/94 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 417 SHORT TITLE: POSSESSION OF FIREARMS IN SCHOOL LOCKERS SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) BUNDE JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/31/94 2205 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/31/94 2205 (H) HES, JUDICIARY 02/17/94 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 418 SHORT TITLE: EXTEND BOARD OF PAROLE BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) B.DAVIS JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/31/94 2205 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/31/94 2205 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 02/17/94 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 94-23, SIDE A Number 000 CHAIR BUNDE called the meeting to order at 3:05 p.m., indicated that there was not a quorum present, and said roll would be taken further along into the meeting. He announced the calendar and brought CSHB 299 to the table. CSHB 299: "An Act relating to revocation of a driver's license for illegal possession or use of a controlled substance or illegal possession or consumption of alcohol; and providing for an effective date." Number 044 REP. CYNTHIA TOOHEY, Prime Sponsor of HB 299, stated that a proposed committee substitute (CS) had been drafted and requested to have the CS adopted as a working draft. She indicated there was not a quorum present. REP. TOOHEY stated that recent data from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration indicates the alcohol fatality rate for high school students is nearly twice as high than drivers 25 years of age and older. She further stated that the rate is nearly three times as high for 18-20 year olds. She stressed that the consumption of alcohol or drugs can severely impair the ability of the driver to drive responsibly. She said that driving is a privilege and that loss of the privilege is a powerful deterrent to drugs or alcohol use or possession. She felt legislation would provide a strong incentive for children to say no. She also said the proposal would positively reinforce those youths who are alcohol and drug free by maintaining their eligibility. She said the proposed legislation is known as "use it/lose it." REP. TOOHEY asserted that a minor who is old enough to have a permit or license would lose that privilege if the minor possessed, used, or consumed a controlled substance or alcohol. She said the proposal is supported by the Department of Public Safety (DPS), the Alaska Medical Association, the Alaska Council on Prevention of Alcohol and Drug Abuse, Alaskans for Drug Free Youths, and the Alaska Association of the Chief of Police. REP. TOOHEY explained that there is a cost to DPS, but the revenues generated by the implementation of the proposal would be offset and a positive revenue stream is anticipated. She also said that the program would enable the state to access additional federal funds. REP. TOOHEY said that the Department of Law (DOL) said that there would be a zero fiscal note. She maintained that if the proposal achieves its intention, the savings of lives and the savings of alcohol and drug treatment costs could be tremendous. Number 174 CHAIR BUNDE indicated that there were witnesses present from Juneau/Douglas High School and asked for the first witness. Number 199 SAM RUSSELL, Student, Juneau/Douglas High School, testified in support of CSHB 299. He stated that the proposal was a very good idea. He did say, however, that the wording of the proposal is unclear and would leave a lot to the judgement of a police officer. He then asked what the definition of probable cause is. Number 233 MARGOT KNUTH, Assistant Attorney General, Department of Law, answered legal questions on CSHB 299. She stated that probable cause is a recognized legal standard that requires that a police officer have evidence available that indicates, more likely than not, that the violation has occurred. The violation would be subject to review by the courts, who would use the standard and substitute their own judgement for the police officers, and then agree or disagree that there was probable cause. Number 260 CHAIR BUNDE commented that if a police officer makes a judgement based on probable cause that is incorrect, the case would be thrown out of court. MS. KNUTH agreed. SAM RUSSELL indicated that the words "possessed, used, and consumed" are used in the past tense and questioned what time frame was indicated. He also asked, if a neighbor was to call the police and report the suspicion of minors consuming alcohol in the house across the street, would that be enough evidence of probable cause for a police officer to make an arrest. Number 322 CHAIR BUNDE noted for the record that at 3:14 p.m. a quorum was present and indicated that Reps. Toohey, Brice, Nicholia, Bettye Davis, Gary Davis and himself (Rep. Bunde) were present. CHAIR BUNDE, for clarification, asked if the terms being discussed were well defined by law. Number 345 MS. KNUTH said yes, and further stated that the administrative revocation statute as proposed begins: "If a peace officer has probable cause based on personal observation..." She said that line requires the officer to actually observe enough to believe the offense has been committed. To only see suspicious conduct would not be enough. MS. KNUTH stated that the odor of alcohol on a juvenile's breath would be enough evidence for probable cause. She said the requirement of personal observation also gives a "time back" time frame. She explained that usually no more than a certain amount of hours could pass after the offense is committed and the time frame would not go back weeks or months or years. Number 393 CHAIR BUNDE said the proposal was a protective measure and it was not his intention that any legal rights be taken away. He further stated that youths should have the same legal rights as adults. Number 422 REP. G. DAVIS made a motion to adopt the CS for HB 299 as a working draft. Number 425 CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no objection, stated that CSHB 299 had been adopted as the working draft. Number 437 SAM RUSSELL reiterated his support for CSHB 299. Number 462 KAI MORRISON, Student, Juneau/Douglas High School, testified in support of CSHB 299. He stated that he was somewhat unclear as to the statutes involved in the proposal. CHAIR BUNDE maintained that the statutes would be made available to the students the following day. KAI MORRISON asked, if a minor does not have a license and is found to be in possession of drugs or alcohol, would the right to obtain a license be withheld for the same period as those minors who do have a license? Number 517 JUANITA HENSLEY, Chief, Driver Services, Division of Motor Vehicles, Department of Public Safety, answered questions on CSHB 299. She stated that driving is a privilege in the state Alaska; it is not a right. It is an earned privilege obtained by obeying the laws of the state. She stated that if a minor does not have a license, the privilege to obtain a license is revoked for the same period of time as a person who has a license. She explained that if an individual is charged with minor consuming, and the police officer had probable cause, the license would be revoked through the administrative process. She said the first offense lasts for 90 days from the date that the officer made the determination, or from the date prescribed by law, seven days from the initial charge. Number 548 KAI MORRISON asked if an administrative hearing must be held in the same town that the violation occurred in. Number 559 MS. HENSLEY stated that the administrative hearing could be conducted over the phone. Number 593 CHAIR BUNDE asked if Kai Morrison was in support or opposition of CSHB 299. Number 596 KAI MORRISON said he supports CSHB 299. Number 608 ALISHA HECK, Student, Juneau/Douglas High School, testified in support of CSHB 299. She asked how minors, whose parents will not let their children obtain permits or licenses, would be affected by the proposal. She explained that there would be nothing to take away if the minor was not going to be allowed to obtain a permit or a license. Number 550 MS. HENSLEY said if an administrative hearing is not requested, the privilege to drive or obtain a license would be revoked, effective the eighth day following the initial charge. She said that it would not start the day a person turns eighteen years of age. Number 674 ALISHA HECK stated that there would be nothing to take away in that time period if the parents did not allow them to obtain a permit or license. Number 683 MS. HENSLEY said the proposal would prevent the minor from obtaining a driver's license, and if they had a driver's license, it would be revoked. Number 689 CHAIR BUNDE interjected that in the event the parents change their minds, the proposal would affect the minor. Number 696 REP. TOOHEY asked how the proposal would apply to the minor who then turns 18 years of age. Number 705 MS. HENSLEY replied that there is a seven day grace period from the initial notice when the officer gave the minor the notice (called a notice in order of revocation). The revocation would actually start on the eighth day, unless the minor requests an administrative hearing. She further stated that if a minor comes in to apply on their 18 birthday, the period of revocation would be over. Number 729 CHAIR BUNDE interjected that the violation does not remain in suspended animation. Number 737 ALISHA HECK reiterated that nothing would be taken away if the parents do not allow the children to obtain a permit or license, therefore there is no lesson taught. Number 747 CHAIR BUNDE stated that the same circumstance applies to the minor who is too young to acquire a permit. He agreed that the legislation cannot take anything away in those circumstances, but said circumstance often change quickly. Number 759 ALISHA HECK indicated under Section 1, line 3, it specifies youthful drivers or teen drivers and felt that the section could apply to anyone driving under the influence. She said if the words youthful and teenager were deleted, the statement still would hold true. Number 781 CHAIR BUNDE commented that motor vehicle safety statistics indicate that young people are killed more often in motor vehicle accidents, more so than "drunk old people." Number 786 ALISHA HECK maintained that the language could be removed because the concept did not apply only to youths. Number 789 CHAIR BUNDE explained that the focus of the legislation addresses teenage drivers. He felt that the proposal was not intended to be prejudiced against teenagers. REP. TOOHEY stated that the safety administration indicates that among high school aged drivers, the alcohol fatality rate is nearly twice as high as for that of 25 year old drivers. She said the proposal specifically addresses youthful drinking. Number 816 ALISHA HECK said she supported CSHB 299 but felt the wording could be more clear. Number 822 REP. G. DAVIS commented that most parents who already deny their children the privilege of obtaining a permit or license would probably impose some type of further restrictions should their children be charged with an alcohol or drug related offense. Number 845 REP. BRICE asked if the revocation takes place automatically. Number 853 MS. HENSLEY stated that the revocation would take place automatically on the eighth day following the initial charge, unless the minor requests an administrative review. Number 861 REP. BRICE asked what the offense would be for individuals between 18 and 21 years of age. Number 874 MS. HENSLEY said the issue is addressed within CSHB 299. She said if a person is in need of a driver's license to earn a livelihood, they can request, through the Department of Public Safety, a limited work license. She referred to the provision on page 3, lines 16-18. Number 899 JESSE GEMMELL, Student, Juneau/Douglas High School, testified in support of CSHB 299. She asked why the seven day grace period is provided in the proposal. Number 908 MS. HENSLEY said the provision allows the minor to follow their due process rights. She stated that the same provision is included in the Driving While Under the Influence (DWI) statute. Number 939 CHAIR BUNDE asked Jesse Gammell in what capacity she represents Juneau/Douglas High School. Number 940 JESSE GEMMELL answered that she is a member of the Natural Helpers group. CHAIR BUNDE asked Jesse Gemmell if she was in support or opposition to CSHB 299. Number 947 JESSE GEMMELL replied that she was in support of CSHB 299. Number 955 VERNON MARSHALL, Executive Director, National Education Association/Alaska, testified in support of CSHB 299. He expressed concern that if a child is helping to support the family unit and that child's license is revoked, the impact may be extreme on the entire family. He said it was his hope that a hearing officer would take that into consideration when reviewing the case. Number 986 MS. HENSLEY said that the officer can take that into consideration. Number 994 MR. MARSHALL stated another concern as being the use of education along with revocation. He noticed that in AS 28.15.201 there is reference to enrollment and compliance with alcohol treatment programs when appropriate. He encouraged the committee to consider making some form of treatment a provision in the proposal. He also indicated that the CS did not contain the original provision of a continuing education program. He assumed that the programs are already being done and that is why it is not in the CS. If indeed the programs were not available, Mr. Marshall strongly urged the committee to make that a provision in the CS. He felt it would help families and prevent the possibility of repeat offenders in the future. Number 030 REP. TOOHEY indicated that on page 2, line 1, was a provision that would allow schools to conduct educational programs to teach youths about the dangers of drinking or using controlled substances and driving. Number 036 REP. BRICE said, to his understanding, what was read would not have power of statute as it would in the findings of the legislation. He asked Rep. Toohey if she would be amenable to making a reference to that in part of the administrative revocation. Number 046 REP. TOOHEY did not know the answer. Number 053 CHAIR BUNDE clarified by saying part of the penalty would be to attend some type of alcohol counselling. Number 056 MS. HENSLEY said that issue could be provided for in the bill. She said that any time a license is revoked for drinking and driving, the individual must show evidence of completion of an alcohol treatment program. Number 068 CHAIR BUNDE asked if the expense of the program would be the responsibility of the driver. Number 071 MS. HENSLEY answered yes. Number 072 REP. TOOHEY said she could support that provision if most treatment did not cost $1000 per day. She said that provision could kill the bill. She felt the wording should urge the joining of a twelve step program, such as Alcoholics Anonymous or Alateen, which cost nothing to attend. Number 086 MS. HENSLEY stated there is a program through the Alcohol Safety Action program and other programs that are certified through the Division of Motor Vehicles that are eight hour alcohol information schools. She said the average cost is between $20.00 and $40.00. Number 102 CHAIR BUNDE said there is a difference between residential commitment and alcohol awareness programs. He suggested that Rep. Toohey craft an amendment while further testimony is taken. Number 117 KAI MORRISON stated that his school already has a health program and questioned if that program would be considered an alcohol awareness program as specified in CSHB 299. Number 137 CHAIR BUNDE said it was his understanding that those types of classes would be included in the purview of the legislation. TAPE 94-23, SIDE B Number 000 JAIME MARKS, Representative, National Council on Alcoholism/Juneau, testified in support of CSHB 299. He also supported mandatory education along with revocation. Number 027 SAM RUSSELL stated that his school currently has a Drug Abuse Resistance Education (DARE) program and asked if it would qualify under the guidelines in the proposal. CHAIR BUNDE said it was his feeling that the decision would be made by the administrative hearing officer as to what programs qualify. REP. BRICE suggested that perhaps some guidance be given within the amendment. Number 076 CHAIR BUNDE stated that the language should be fairly broad as the DARE program may be cut next year. Number 080 MS. HENSLEY stated that the DARE program can be certified through the Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV). She explained that once the program is certified, it is added to the list of available programs. Number 106 MS. HENSLEY stated that DPS supports the CS for HB 299. She felt that CSHB 299 would save lives of youths and future leaders by reducing the number of injuries and fatal accidents. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, she said, drivers between 16 and 20 years old comprised 7.4% of the nation's population in 1991 and were involved in 15.4% of fatal motor vehicle accidents. She said that 6630 youths between ages 15 through 20 died in motor vehicle accidents. She further stated that in addition to alcohol consumption, other high risk factors are speeding and inadequate use of seatbelts. She felt the revocation of a driver's license would serve as a deterrent to consuming or being in possession of illegal substances. MS. HENSLEY stated that there would be a fiscal cost, but that the costs would be offset by revenues taken in by the state. She said the Division of Family and Youth Services (DFYS) reported that 1200 youths between the ages of 14 and 17 are referred to their agency annually by police authorities for alcohol and drug offenses. She said that approximately 1300 persons between 18 and 20 were arrested and charged with drug and alcohol offenses in 1992. She projected the revocation of 2500 licenses in the first operating year. She said, due to the process of revocations and process of due process, the DMV would request one full time driver improvement hearing officer and two full time motor vehicle representatives. She said the cost would be $120,100. She also stated that if the license applicant is under 18 years of age, a parent must sign consent for the license. She expected 90% of revoked licenses to reinstate, which would result in $225,000 of revenue. She indicated that the first year's projected operating cost would be $188,000, the second year $143,00, and revenues would remain at $225,000. She said that hopefully CSHB 299 would lower revocations. Number 302 ALISHA HECK asked, if a person is over 18 years of age, is that person considered an adult? CHAIR BUNDE answered yes, but the person is not old enough to drink. ALISHA HECK felt the wording should be better defined. CHAIR BUNDE stated that he did not have a fiscal note in his packet. MS. HENSLEY stated that DPS could not provide the fiscal note until the CS was adopted. She said she would obtain the fiscal note immediately after the bill passes out of committee. Number 375 MS. HENSLEY reminded Chair Bunde that the bill would be referred to Judiciary. She then stated that under page 3, line 18, the sentence, "If a person's driver's license, permit, or privilege to obtain a license is revoked (under this section), the person's license or permit may not be issued or reinstated until the person demonstrates compliance with the terms of AS 28.15.211 (d)." Number 467 CHAIR BUNDE asked if the committee was comfortable with the amendment. After some discussion, Chair Bunde asked for a motion. Number 478 REP. B. DAVIS made a motion to adopt the amendment for CSHB 299. Number 480 CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no objections, stated that CSHB 299 as amended was before the committee. He then asked the pleasure of the committee. Number 487 REP. BRICE made a motion to move CSHB 299 as amended out of committee with anticipated fiscal note to Judiciary, the next committee of referral. Number 494 CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no objections, stated that the bill was so moved. He then charged the students with the responsibility of sitting on his side of the table within the next 20 to 30 years. Number 552 (NOTE: Rep. Toohey assumed the position of Chair for the remainder of the meeting.) CHAIR TOOHEY brought HB 417 to the table. HB 417 - POSSESSION OF FIREARMS IN SCHOOL LOCKERS Number 556 REP. BUNDE stated that HB 417 would give schools the statutory authority to define when lockers should be searched. He stated that Section 2 provides that a two week notice or a perpetual notice must be posted if lockers are going to be searched, thereby the student's right to privacy is reasonably protected. He then mentioned that San Diego, California, eliminated school lockers entirely, which lead to a large reduction in violence on campuses. He said he had a CS for HB 417 and asked that it be adopted. Number 629 REP. B. DAVIS made a motion to adopt the CS for HB 417. Number 631 CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, stated that the CSHB 417 was adopted as the working draft. Number 640 REP. BRICE stated that it is a greater offense to have a pair of brass knuckles on your person than it is to have a gun in school. He wondered if that issue could be addressed in the bill. Number 658 REP. BUNDE stated that AS 11.61.220 indicates that it is currently against the law to have guns in school lockers and that Section 1 in the CS amends the language to say "deadly weapon." He then said that deadly weapon means: "Any firearm or anything designed and capable of causing death or serious physical injury, including a knife, axe, club, metal knuckles, or explosives." Number 701 JERRY LUCKHAUPT, Attorney, Legislative Legal Counsel, Legislative Affairs Agency, answered legal questions pertaining to CSHB 417. He stated that it is currently a crime, in the fourth degree, to possess, manufacture, transport, sell, or transfer metal knuckles, and is a Class A misdemeanor. He then stated that when there are weapons involved in a fifth degree crime, possession of a firearm, or any other deadly weapon that is on school grounds, it becomes a Class B misdemeanor. He said the definition of deadly weapon does include metal knuckles. Mr. Luck further stated that the provision dealing with school grounds was enacted in 1990. The provision for metal knuckles has been around since the criminal code was revised. Number 730 REP. BRICE asked if HB 417 brought both crimes up to the same level of Class A misdemeanor. Number 734 MR. LUCKHAUPT answered that AS 11.61.210 would still outlaw the possession of metal knuckles and make it a Class A misdemeanor. He then said AS 11.61.220 and the amendment to that provision would close a loophole pertaining to the possession of deadly weapons on school grounds. He explained that when the legislature in 1990 proscribed the possession of firearms and defensive weapons on school grounds, it allowed for the possession of deadly weapons. He said that the problem is that possession of metal knuckles is a Class A misdemeanor, and the possession of metal knuckles on school grounds is a Class B misdemeanor. Number 774 REP. BUNDE stated that the legislation focuses on school grounds as opposed to someone possessing metal knuckles in a bar. He said that the previous legislature decided that people possessing deadly weapons on school grounds were more likely to be children, therefore warranting a Class B misdemeanor rather than a Class A. Number 786 REP. BRICE asked if CSHB 417 would bring the violation up to a Class A misdemeanor. Number 787 REP. BUNDE said no. He said it makes metal knuckles equal to having a gun on school grounds, which is a Class B misdemeanor. Number 790 REP. BRICE clarified by saying that the legislation would make possession of metal knuckles a Class B misdemeanor. Number 793 REP. BUNDE indicated that knuckles were being made a Class B misdemeanor on school grounds. Number 795 REP. BRICE asked if deadly weapons on school grounds could be brought up to a Class A misdemeanor. Number 812 REP. BUNDE said that the offenses were chosen to be Class B misdemeanors because the offenders are more likely to be children. He then speculated that perhaps it should be a Class A misdemeanor. He felt that as long as knuckles and other deadly weapons are equal to the severity of having a firearm on school grounds, he was comfortable with the legislation. Number 837 MS. KNUTH stated on behalf of the administration that the possession of guns on school grounds should be a felony. She explained that currently it is such a light offense that there is no flexibility within the system to deal with the problem. She said a maximum of 90 days is available for the criminal offense. She felt that the message to children is "this is the least of all possible serious offenses, when it's the most lethal of all possible circumstances." She said the proposal could be a great vehicle for attacking the problem. REP. BUNDE said that he was not opposed to possibly changing the misdemeanor class and was interested in hearing further testimony. Number 930 MR. MARSHALL testified in support of CSHB 417 as amended. He indicated that page 3, lines 2-3, specifies the grounds of the parking lot of a private or public school. He asked the committee to consider adding school sponsored events under Section 2. REP. BUNDE referred to lines 4-6 that state, "...without permission of the chief administrative officer of the school or district..." Number 956 MR. MARSHALL suggested that perhaps weapons should be restricted relative to school sponsored events or in vicinity to school sponsored events. He asked the committee to consider a provision regarding searches of school lockers that would include language that identifies a person (page 3, line 29-30) has reasonable cause to believe deadly weapons are likely to be found as a result of a locker search. Number 002 REP. BUNDE said he would be resistant to that type of change, indicating that a police officer may be searching for something other than a deadly weapon, e.g., contraband. Number 009 MR. MARSHALL suggested that a standard may want to be set so the administrator would be operating with authority relative to statute. TAPE 94-24, SIDE A Number 000 REP. BRICE indicated what he thought to be a great difference between reasonable and probable cause. Number 034 REP. BUNDE asked if Rep. Brice was referring to page 2, Section C. He stated that nothing in the section limits the ability of the police officer and other appropriate people to act in compliance with local, state, and federal law. Number 058 MS. KNUTH stated that she saw no reason to change Section C of the proposal. She maintained that the purpose of the subsection was to clarify that police officers still have the right to conduct a search. Number 092 REP. BUNDE clarified the meaning of a school sponsored event. He related that football games in Anchorage are played on city property, not on campus, and the concern is not to have deadly weapons allowed at school sponsored events. He said there are employees, students, and adults at school sponsored events, and he felt the scope of the legislation would not provide for all those people. Number 126 CHAIR TOOHEY stated that the legislation could not make the entire world safe. Number 142 MS. KNUTH asserted that the proposal has identifiable, physical boundaries. REP. G. DAVIS said that school regulations within a manual carry over to school sponsored events. He felt that the legislation should carry over to school sponsored events. Number 166 CHAIR TOOHEY, for clarification, asked if the legislation was focusing on students or bystanders at a school sponsored event. Number 174 REP. BUNDE related a scenario of a man driving into Mulcahey Park in Anchorage to change his tire while a high school football game is being played. He has a gun rack in his truck and is anticipating that he will go hunting the next day. Chair Bunde said in that instance there would be a boundary problem. Number 204 REP. BRICE said that there are rivals between various groups of students in Fairbanks. He expressed concern that youths are becoming more violent, and perhaps a youth who is found carrying a concealed weapon should be made to "do time for the crime." He felt there should be a provision that makes the offense as serious as being in possession of a concealed weapon in school. Number 250 REP. BUNDE said there may be an instance where an adult is carrying a gun for protection as he cuts through the back of the stands of a football field on his way to work. He questioned if the man should be guilty of an offense. Number 263 REP. BRICE said no. REP. BUNDE said, according to what Rep. Brice was saying, the man would be guilty. Number 269 REP. BRICE asked how his concerns could be legally addressed within the proposal. Number 274 MS. KNUTH said that the answer to both scenarios is gun registration. She said that it's difficult to say to children on one hand that they can't do something and turn around and have different rules for adults. She said that a law can be created for a crime that is age related. Number 317 REP. BUNDE asked if the verbiage "participating in a school event" would address the aforementioned concerns. He said that participating would mean that a person is actively involved in the event, and there would be a clear boundary. Number 334 MS. KNUTH said yes it would solve the problem as to who are the pool of violators. Although, she said, there is still a problem of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that a person was actually participating in a school sponsored event. Number 359 REP. BUNDE referred to page 2, line 4, and said that the phrase, "or participating in a school sponsored event without the permission of the chief administrative officer," could be added at the end of the sentence. Number 386 MS. KNUTH said that as a prosecutor, she was comfortable with that language and she could establish to a jury's satisfaction whether or not a person was participating at a school sponsored event or not. She questioned whether there needed to be a definition of "participating." Number 403 BILL CRAIG, Interim President, Alaska Native Blind, said there are laws concerning adults carrying concealed weapons, and he thought the prior discussion was irrelevant. He said that adults participating in a school event would already be covered. Number 425 MS. KNUTH said that most often that the proposed law would come into effect when discerning whether it is appropriate for the weapon to be in a case or in a trunk. Number 452 REP. BUNDE indicated that the weapon would have to be unloaded. He said if it is loaded, it would not be allowed in a trunk or gun case. Number 465 MR. LUCKHAUPT said the provision for school grounds is not concerned with whether or not the weapon is concealed. He said under the provisions of the proposed legislation, a person who was carrying a deadly or defensive weapon would be in violation. He was concerned as to "how far participating is going to go." He maintained that it is currently legal to carry an unconcealed deadly weapon. He further explained it would be possible that a person, carrying an unconcealed weapon, would be hunting or trapping near a rural school to watch a school sponsored cross country skiing event. Number 517 REP. BUNDE asked if "actively participated" would be better language. MS. KNUTH asserted that it would not clarify anything. She said participating is meaningful to her, and that identifies to her who to prosecute and who not to prosecute. Number 541 REP. BRICE asked if participating in a school sponsored event needed to be included. He said if someone is fixing a flat tire at a school, that person is not participating at a school event. Number 560 REP. BUNDE referred to legal counsel and said from his understanding, Ms. Knuth and Mr. Luckhaupt are comfortable with the language. He made a motion to amend CSHB 417 to include the statement: "participating in a school sponsored event without permission of..." on page 2, line 4, after the word "secondary school." Number 586 CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, said CSHB 417 as amended was so moved. Number 589 REP. BUNDE asked the committee if the offense should be a felony as opposed to a Class B misdemeanor. Number 599 MS. KNUTH conveyed to the committee that attorneys who have worked with juveniles have had the experience that a Class B misdemeanor does not give them enough flexibility to deal appropriately with the juvenile. She said that it is not worthwhile to go through a delinquency proceeding for a matter that is certainly indicative of a serious problem and that is only worthy of a Class B misdemeanor. She stated that her office was surprised to find that it was only a Class B misdemeanor and said they had assumed it to be a felony. She said it was a policy decision that needed to be made by the legislature. Number 634 REP. BUNDE asked the differences in penalties for misdemeanors and felony charges and level differences. Number 640 MS. KNUTH said that if a youth was to go through the juvenile system, there are not the same implications as there are with an adult. She said that a judge would not waive a juvenile to adult status simply for possession of a gun. She said the most serious of offenses would be waived; e.g., rape and murder. She further stated that the penalties associated with making the offense a felony under the proposed legislation, would still be minimal. She said if a convicted felon was in possession of a gun on school grounds it would be a Class A felony. Number 694 REP. BUNDE asked Ms. Knuth to explain the parameters of sentencing. MS. KNUTH stated that generally there would be no jail time imposed for this offense, but the maximum would be five years in jail and a $10,000 fine. Number 707 REP. BUNDE suggested that the measure is more of a psychological deterrent; as with a misdemeanor there is no jail time, and as a felony there is the potential of at least two years in prison (not likely to be imposed). Number 717 MS. KNUTH agreed and also said that there is the option of probation and supervision. She said the classification would imply that the offense is serious enough to warrant keeping an eye on the offender for at least a year. Number 724 REP. BUNDE asked if it would take major revisions of the proposal to make the offense a Class C felony. Number 733 MR. LUCKHAUPT said it would not be very difficult to make the change. Number 744 REP. BUNDE asked if the change could be made now or would it require more time. Number 748 MR. LUCKHAUPT said that he could be directed to amend AS 11.61.200. Number 755 REP. BUNDE said that if he had the support of the committee to amend that section, he would be willing to pass the bill out of committee. Number 762 REP. BRICE said that guns in school should be equal to the offense of having brass knuckles outside of school. He asked if there was a way to bring firearms up to a Class A misdemeanor. Number 786 REP. BUNDE maintained that if a change was to be made it should be a felony. Number 796 REP. BRICE referred to the scenario where a student had a gun and the police were unable to respond in an appropriate manner. Number 802 REP. BUNDE replied that the instance was a privacy issue and was not relevant. REP. BUNDE said the practical application of a misdemeanor would only involve a fine. He said he now felt that a classification of a felony would be more appropriate. Number 823 MS. KNUTH said that an adult would incur jail time for the offense. She further stated that a juvenile would go through an entirely different proceeding where the goal is rehabilitation. Number 838 CHAIR TOOHEY said that a five year old who goes to school with his father's gun would not be guilty of a felony. Number 846 REP. BUNDE indicated that there would be prosecutorial discretion. Number 857 REP. BRICE said he would like to see possession of deadly weapon by a student on school property be a Class A misdemeanor. Number 872 REP. BUNDE said he felt it would be appropriate to hold the bill and to give the issues further thought. Number 887 REP. G. DAVIS indicated that if changes were made there could be ramifications regarding the fiscal note. Number 896 REP. BUNDE asked how the change would affect the fiscal note. Number 899 MS. KNUTH said the fiscal note would remain at zero. Number 907 CHAIR TOOHEY stated that the bill would be held over until the next committee meeting. CHAIR TOOHEY brought HB 418 to the table. HB 418 - EXTEND BOARD OF PAROLE Number 938 REP. B. DAVIS indicated that an intern of hers would give a brief overview of the bill. Number 942 NANNETTE GAY, Intern, Rep. Bettye Davis, Prime Sponsor of HB 418, presented a brief overview of HB 418 on behalf of Rep. Bettye Davis. She said HB 418 would extend the Board of Parole for the customary four year period (to June 30, 1997). She said under current law the date is June 30, 1994. She said the expiration of the Parole Board will not alter the state's responsibility to provide discretionary and mandatory parole. She urged the support of HB 418. REP. BUNDE moved to have HB 418 move out of committee with individual recommendations. Number 985 CHAIR TOOHEY, hearing no objections, declared that HB 418 was so moved. Seeing no further business before the committee, CHAIR TOOHEY ADJOURNED the meeting at 4:58 p.m.