HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE April 1, 1993 3:00 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Rep. Cynthia Toohey, Co-Chair Rep. Con Bunde, Co-Chair Rep. Gary Davis, Vice Chair Rep. Al Vezey Rep. Pete Kott Rep. Harley Olberg Rep. Bettye Davis Rep. Irene Nicholia Rep. Tom Brice MEMBERS ABSENT None COMMITTEE CALENDAR SB 53: "An Act annulling changes made by certain regulations adopted by the Department of Health and Social Services relating to funding of abortion services under the general relief medical program; and providing for an effective date." PASSED WITH INDIVIDUAL RECOMMENDATIONS, NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION GIVEN HB 210: "An Act relating to employment of chief school administrators." POSTPONED TO TIME CERTAIN HB 85: "An Act relating to the public school foundation program; and providing for an effective date." POSTPONED TO TIME CERTAIN HB 195: "An Act authorizing youth courts by which to provide for peer adjudication of minors who have allegedly committed violations of state or municipal laws, renaming the community legal assistance grant fund and amending the purposes for which grants may be made from that fund in order to provide financial assistance for organizations and initial operation of youth courts, and relating to young adult advisory panels in the superior court." POSTPONED TO TIME CERTAIN (* First public hearing.) WITNESS REGISTER DEBBI LAWE P.O. Box 1019 Ward Cove, Alaska 99928 Phone: (907) 225-3515 Position statement: Testified in support of SB 53 KATHY HINSON P.O. Box 9060 Ward Cove, Alaska 99928 Phone: (907) 225-9133 Position statement: Testified in support of SB 53 MARSHA GEORGE 1926 Cub Court Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-2490 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 KAREN DANGERFIELD P.O. Box 3013 Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-7434 Position statement: Testified in support of SB 53 BILL FREER 748 Millar Ridge Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-5071 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 ELINORE JACOBSEN 2125 Second Ave. Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-3395 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 FRAN YOUNG 537 Tower Road Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-3528 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 PENNI POET P.O. Box 992 Ward Cove, Alaska 99928 Phone: (907) 247-8321 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 JANICE DAREFF 963-A Forest Park Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-4333 Position statement: Testified in support of SB 53 DONALD POET P.O. Box 992 Ward Cove, Alaska 99928 Phone: (907) 247-8321 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 MARCIA HILLEY P.O. Box 7483 Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-5775 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 TERESA CREVIER 1123 Black Bear Road Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-6588 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 JOE WILLIAMS P.O. Box 6754 Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-4314 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 CANDI AUSTIN 8339 Snug Harbor Lane Ketchikan, Alaska 99901 Phone: (907) 225-6842 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 CHRISTINA KAY SMITH 2865 Mendenhall Loop Road Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 789-9324 work Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 SID HEIDERSDORF Alaskans for Life P.O. Box 020658 Juneau, Alaska 99802 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 ROBIN STEVENS P.O. Box 22070 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Phone: (907) 463-5131 work Phone: (907) 586-1565 home Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 KATHY POLK P.O. Box 020196 Juneau, Alaska 99802 Phone: (907) 463-4846 Position statement: Testified in opposition to SB 53 ELMER LINDSTROM, Special Assistant to the Commissioner Department of Health and Social Services P.O. Box 110601 Juneau, Alaska 99811-0601 Phone: (907) 465-3030 MICHAEL MCGEE, Chief Permanent Fund Division Operations Department of Revenue P.O. Box 110460 Juneau, Alaska 99811 Phone: (907) 465-2622 Position statement: Opposed PFD check-off program amendment JACK PHELPS, Aide Rep. Pete Kott Alaska State Legislature State Capitol, Room 409 Juneau, Alaska 99801-1182 Phone: (907) 465-3777 Position statement: Testified on SB 53 PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: SB 53 SHORT TITLE: ANNULLING ABORTION FUNDING REGULATIONS BILL VERSION: CSSB 53(FIN) AM(EFD FLD) SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES TITLE: "An Act relating to payment for abortions under Medicaid and general relief medical assistance; annulling changes made by certain regulations adopted by the Department of Health and Social Services relating to funding of abortion services under the general relief medical program." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/22/93 122 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/22/93 122 (S) HES, JUD, FINANCE 01/27/93 (S) HES AT 01:30 PM BUTROVICH ROOM 205 01/27/93 (S) MINUTE(HES) 01/29/93 187 (S) HES RPT 4DP 1NR 1DNP 01/29/93 187 (S) FISCAL NOTES PUBLISHED (DHSS-5) 02/10/93 (S) JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211 02/10/93 (S) MINUTE(JUD) 02/24/93 (S) JUD AT 01:30 PM BELTZ ROOM 211 02/24/93 (S) MINUTE(JUD) 02/25/93 481 (S) JUD RPT 1DP 2DP W/AM 2DNP 02/25/93 481 (S) PREVIOUS FNS (DHSS-5) 02/25/93 487 (S) FIN WAIVED PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE,RULE 23 02/26/93 499 (S) FIN RPT CS 4DP 2DNP NEW TITLE 02/26/93 499 (S) PREVIOUS FNS APPLY TO CS (DHSS-5) 02/26/93 (S) FIN AT 09:00 AM SENATE FIN 518 02/26/93 (S) MINUTE(FIN) 02/26/93 (S) RLS AT 01:15 PM FAHRENKAMP ROOM 203 02/26/93 (S) MINUTE(RLS) 03/02/93 575 (S) MOTION TO CALENDAR 3/3/93 FLD Y8 N11 E1 03/03/93 589 (S) RULES RPT 2/CALENDAR 1/OTHER REC 3/3/93 03/03/93 590 (S) READ THE SECOND TIME 03/03/93 591 (S) FIN CS ADOPTED Y13 N5 E1 A1 03/03/93 592 (S) AM NO 1 ADOPTED Y11 N8 E1 03/03/93 592 (S) ADVANCE TO 3RD RDG FAILED Y13 N6 E1 03/03/93 592 (S) THIRD READING 3/5 CALENDAR 03/05/93 634 (S) READ THE THIRD TIME CSSB 53(FIN) AM 03/05/93 635 (S) PASSED Y12 N6 E2 03/05/93 635 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y12 N6 E2 03/05/93 635 (S) Duncan NOTICE OF RECONSIDERATION 03/08/93 658 (S) RECON TAKEN UP - IN THIRD READING 03/08/93 659 (S) PLACED AT BOTTOM OF CALENDAR UNAN CONS 03/08/93 672 (S) PASSED ON RECONSIDERATION Y13 N6 E1 03/08/93 672 (S) EFFECTIVE DATE FAILED Y13 N6 E1 03/08/93 677 (S) TRANSMITTED TO (H) 03/10/93 582 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/10/93 582 (H) L&C, HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 03/23/93 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 124 03/25/93 (H) L&C AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 124 03/25/93 (H) MINUTE(L&C) 03/26/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/26/93 791 (H) L&C RPT 3DP 2DNP 2NR 03/26/93 791 (H) DP: WILLIAMS, PORTER, SITTON 03/26/93 791 (H) DNP: GREEN, MULDER 03/26/93 791 (H) NR: HUDSON, MACKIE 03/26/93 791 (H) -5 PREVIOUS SENATE FNS(DHS) 1/29/93 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 210 SHORT TITLE: HIRING OF CHIEF SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MARTIN,Kott TITLE: "An Act relating to employment of chief school administrators." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 03/10/93 590 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/10/93 590 (H) HES, FINANCE 03/12/93 629 (H) COSPONSOR(S): KOTT 03/22/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/22/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 03/22/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 85 SHORT TITLE: PUBLIC SCHOOL FOUNDATION PROGRAM BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR TITLE: "An Act relating to the public school foundation program; and providing for an effective date." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 01/22/93 138 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 01/22/93 138 (H) HES, FINANCE 01/22/93 138 (H) -FISCAL NOTE (DOE) 1/22/93 01/22/93 138 (H) GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER 02/18/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/18/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 02/23/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 02/23/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 03/22/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 03/25/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/25/93 (H) MINUTE(HES) 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 BILL: HB 195 SHORT TITLE: AUTHORIZING YOUTH COURTS BILL VERSION: SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) SITTON,Ulmer,Willis,Foster, Brown,B.Davis,Olberg,Porter TITLE: "An Act authorizing youth courts by which to provide for peer adjudication of minors who have allegedly committed violations of state or municipal laws, renaming the community legal assistance grant fund and amending the purposes for which grants may be made from that fund in order to provide financial assistance for organization and initial operation of youth courts, and relating to young adult advisory panels in the superior court." JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION 03/03/93 519 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S) 03/03/93 519 (H) HES, JUDICIARY, FINANCE 03/12/93 628 (H) COSPONSOR(S): WILLIS, FOSTER, BROWN 03/12/93 628 (H) COSPONSOR(S): B.DAVIS, OLBERG 03/19/93 716 (H) COSPONSOR(S): PORTER 03/24/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 03/31/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 04/01/93 (H) HES AT 03:00 PM CAPITOL 106 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 93-55, SIDE A Number 000 CHAIR BUNDE called the meeting to order at 3:39 p.m. and noted members present. He announced that HB 85, HB 210 and HB 195 would be postponed until April 2, 1993. CHAIR BUNDE announced that the committee would be taking public testimony via teleconference from Ketchikan because technical problems had blocked testimony at the previous hearing on SB 53. He brought SB 53 to the table. SB 53: ANNULLING ABORTION REGULATIONS Number 048 DEBBI LAWE testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in support of SB 53. Her written testimony is on file in the committee room. In summary, she said that abortion was legal, and that the issue was whether abortion would be limited to wealthy women, and that abortion was a personal, not political decision. Number 085 KATHY HINSON, A MEDICAL LABORATORY TECHNOLOGIST, testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in support of SB 53, saying preventing unwanted pregnancies was in the best interest of the state and its taxpayers. Number 099 MARSHA GEORGE testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53. She said talk of discrimination against poor women was "hogwash." She said she had three abortions as a poor, working, single teenager. She said that as manager of a low-income housing development in Ketchikan, she sees many women on welfare who enjoy many amenities of life and who could likely afford to pay for abortions if necessary. She called abortion elective surgery and questioned whether the government should pay for any other kinds of elective surgery. Number 141 KAREN DANGERFIELD testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in support of SB 53. She said polls show most Americans and Alaskans were pro-choice, which should persuade legislators to support SB 53. She also said state funding of abortions would save the state from paying for a lifetime of support for unwanted children. Number 158 BILL FREER testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53, saying that a fetus was alive before and after birth, and if state laws barred killing a child after birth, they should not pay to kill it before birth. He said it was ironic that the state was cutting benefits for older Alaskans. Number 181 ELINORE JACOBSEN testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in support of SB 53, saying the state had historically provided support for abortions through Medicaid, and that all residents must support some government programs with which they disagreed. She said abortions should not be separated from other medical procedures and denied to poor women. She said the state spent on abortion was one-fourth of that spent on medical and welfare costs for unintended pregnancies. She mentioned the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, a non-partisan assembly of 35 groups supporting reproductive freedom as a basic part of religious liberty. Number 220 FRAN YOUNG testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53, saying she endorsed the governor's efforts to restrict state abortion funding. She encouraged people to pay for abortions themselves, or to give their babies up for adoption, or to control their own sexual activities. Number 230 PENNI POET testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53, saying the government has to protect all live babies, whether living in or out of the womb. She said abortion discriminated against those residents not old enough to live outside the womb. She said the state's civilization would be judged on how it treated its smallest, most helpless members. Number 254 JANICE DAREFF testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in support of SB 53, saying women have the right to determine their own health care and reproductive lives, and that poor women and wealthy women should have the same rights. She said that if women lacked reproductive rights, the question of any other rights was moot. She said current state regulations discriminated against women's reproductive rights. Number 268 DONALD POET testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53, saying he opposed use of public funds to take innocent human life. Number 274 MARCIA HILLEY testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53, saying that while abortion was legal, she believed it was murder and she did not want her money used for murder. She asked if the state should pay for fertility treatment as well as abortion, and asked rhetorically where a government's responsibility to support women's rights to choose ended. She observed she had never been polled on abortion. Number 291 TERESA CREVIER testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53. She said she supported all of the amendments to SB 53 proposed by Rep. Kott, and that she would support the bill only if all those amendments were adopted. Number 308 JOE WILLIAMS testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53. He said that, in light of budget cutbacks, he did now want the government to spend money on abortion. He added that women could exercise their right to choose by choosing not to become pregnant. Number 335 CANDI AUSTIN testified via teleconference from Ketchikan in opposition to SB 53. Number 340 CHAIR BUNDE announced an end to the teleconference with Ketchikan, and called upon those in Juneau who wished to testify. Number 348 CHRISTINA KAY SMITH testified in Juneau in opposition to SB 53. She said abortion takes away a father's rights. She said her daughter had an abortion without telling her boyfriend. She said a father's concerns should be addressed in childbearing decisions. He encouraged legislators to vote against abortion in any form. She recalled when the father of her daughter offered to pay to abort the girl, and said she then assumed responsibility for the child. She said she was half Tlingit and it would not take long for her people to die off. (Rep. Nicholia arrived at 4:03 p.m.) Number 379 SID HEIDERSDORF, ALASKANS FOR LIFE, testified in Juneau in opposition to SB 53. He said the state's laws should protect not take human life, and that most people knew that abortion was wrong as promoting chaos in language, law and values. He said women do bear a responsibility to their babies, and said babies afflicted with cocaine addiction or Fetal Alcohol Syndrome paid the price of their mothers' actions. He said laws against child abuse protect childrens' rights, but said that abortion rights say the state did not care about babies' rights. He said abortion could not be reconciled with other social values. He stated "therapeutic" abortion was broadly defined, and that the regulations would allow all but purely elective abortions. ROBIN STEVENS testified in Juneau in opposition to SB 53, saying that he and his 46-year-old wife were parents of a 21-month-old baby. He said he opposed state funding of abortions, and encouraged the legislators to use the money instead for research on alcohol. Number 454 KATHY POLK testified in Juneau, remarking that while she had observed many hearings on SB 53 and had heard few people testify in support of it, she was surprised to see the bill continue to pass committees. She said she was a Christian and a minority, and that everyone was a minority in some way. She said she believed that SB 53 would be killed in Jesus' name. She said only God could take a life. She said she and other Christians had been praying about the bill, that they were taking authority over it in Jesus' name, and that the bill would die. Number 488 CHAIR BUNDE closed public testimony on SB 53 and called for discussion by the committee. REP. BRICE, hearing no discussion, MOVED passage of SB 53 with individual recommendations. Number 494 REP. KOTT objected for the purpose of introducing amendments. CHAIR BUNDE noted the objection, and asked Rep. Kott to speak to his amendment. Number 510 REP. KOTT replaced his original amendment 1, distributed at an earlier meeting, with a different amendment. The new amendment 1 returned CSSB 53(FIN) am(efd fld) to the same form as the original SB 53 before it was amended in the Senate. Number 551 ELMER LINDSTROM, SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO THE COMMISSIONER, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SERVICES, said he understood that the amendment would nullify all amendments made to SB 53 by the Senate. It would therefore have the effect of annulling the regulations recently adopted by the Department of Health and Social Services. However, it would not preclude the department from re-promulgating those regulations and would not effect a permanent law. He said the department opposed SB 53, both in its original and amended versions. Number 570 CHAIR BUNDE asked Rep. Kott about the effective date of the bill. Number 575 REP. KOTT said the new amendment would change the effective date to 90 days after the governor signed the bill. He noted that the CSSB 53(FIN) am(efd fld) had no effective date, and therefore would take effect 90 days after the governor signed it. CHAIR BUNDE asked whether Rep. Kott wanted to add an effective date. REP. KOTT said no. CHAIR BUNDE asked a clarifying question regarding the effective date. Number 534 REP. KOTT said his amendment to delete section 5 contained a retroactive date of February 19, 1993. The intent of the amendment was to conform the House version of the bill to the failure of the Senate to enact the retroactive effective date. CHAIR BUNDE thanked Rep. Kott for the explanation. REP. BRICE called the question. Number 546 CHAIR BUNDE asked Mr. Lindstrom whether he understood Rep. Kott's amendment 1 to have the effect of changing CSSB 53(FIN) am(efd fld) back to the original form of SB 53 as introduced to the Senate. Number 555 MR. LINDSTROM said that this would be his reading of the language, but he did not have a copy of the original SB 53. (A committee aide distributed copies of the original SB 53). Mr. Lindstrom then said he would need to consult with the Department of Law. He said that while the intent statement was the same in the original and amended bills, he was not sure whether section 2 as amended would have the effect of annulling the abortion regulations in question. However, Mr. Lindstrom then corrected himself, saying that section 2 of the original SB 53 and section 2 in the bill after Rep. Kott's amendment 1 would have the same effect. CHAIR BUNDE noted that the question had been called, and asked for a roll call vote. Those voting yes: Reps. Kott, Bunde, G. Davis and Vezey. Those voting no were: Reps. Olberg, B. Davis, Nicholia, Brice and Toohey. The motion FAILED 4-5. REP. TOOHEY MOVED passage of CSSB 53(FIN) am(efd fld) with individual recommendations. CHAIR BUNDE noted that the motion had already been made, and that Rep. Kott had objected for the purpose of making an amendment. He asked if there was further discussion of the motion. REP. KOTT OBJECTED for purpose of making an amendment. He noted that he had provided committee members with five amendments. He withdrew his amendment 2, and proceeded to amendment 3. Number 581 REP. KOTT said his amendment 3 allowed those receiving permanent fund dividends to check off a box on their applications to direct a portion of their money to pay for state-funded abortions. He MOVED the amendment. REP. BRICE OBJECTED to the motion. He said that, as a legislative worker in the previous year, he had worked with the Department of Revenue's Permanent Fund Division and believed that the division adamantly opposed any type of check-off for any reason. CHAIR BUNDE invited a representative from the Department of Revenue to testify. TAPE 93-55, SIDE B Number 000 MICHAEL MCGEE, CHIEF OF OPERATIONS FOR THE PERMANENT FUND DIVISION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE, said the department did oppose any check-off to the permanent fund program, as both houses of the state legislature had opposed them for years, since it would open a floodgate of requests for such check-offs. He recalled one proposal to allow check-offs to non-profit organizations and noted that there were 4,500 such organizations in the state. CHAIR BUNDE asked whether there would have to be a fiscal note to cover the administrative costs of such a check-off program. MR. MCGEE answered yes. Number 024 REP. KOTT said that there had been a check-off allowed on PFD applications at least once before. MR. MCGEE answered yes, that there had been a check-off allowed for the effort to attract the Olympic games to Anchorage. Number 030 REP. KOTT asked the fiscal impact of the check-off. MR. MCGEE answered that had did not recall, but such a check-off would require an on-going expense. Number 035 CHAIR BUNDE asked for further discussion and, hearing none, called for a roll call vote on Rep. Kott's amendment 3. Those voting yes were: Reps. Vezey and Kott. Those voting no were: Reps. Olberg, B. Davis, Nicholia, Brice, Toohey, Bunde and G. Davis. The motion FAILED 2-7. Number 058 REP. KOTT introduced amendment 4, which he said would direct physicians, before performing an abortion upon a woman, to inform her of certain information concerning the abortion, including details of the procedure, its risks, and alternatives to abortion. He said the amendment intended to protect the state from lawsuits. REP. BRICE OBJECTED. REP. TOOHEY asked if Rep. Kott's amendment was similar to a bill he had previously introduced (HB 154). REP. KOTT answered yes. Number 073 REP. BRICE raised a point of order, saying that the amendment exceeded the title of the bill and therefore was inappropriate. Number 075 REP. KOTT asked his aide to speak to the objection. Number 081 MR. PHELPS said the first part of amendment 4 was not identical to HB 154, as the amendment dealt only with state funded abortions. He said the title of the bill was broad enough to allow for the changes, because it related to payment for abortions by requiring that women receiving abortions paid for by the state should be fully informed. Number 102 CHAIR BUNDE respectfully disagreed with Mr. Phelps. He said a woman's right to know was not part of the regulations being annulled, as referred to in the title of the bill, "An Act annulling changes made by certain regulations..." He said that since the changes did not exist, they could not be annulled. Number 110 MR. PHELPS said Chair Bunde might be correct. He added that if the committee wanted to adopt the amendment, it would be easy to change the title. CHAIR BUNDE said he still had problems with the bill's title, but said he would allow the vote. Number 124 REP. KOTT asked Chair Bunde to move the amendment on to Judiciary, which he said might be a more proper forum to decide whether a title change was required. Number 130 CHAIR BUNDE called for a roll call vote on Rep. Kott's amendment 4. Those voting yes were: Reps. G. Davis and Kott. Those voting no were: Reps. B. Davis, Nicholia, Brice, Toohey, Bunde and Olberg. The motion FAILED 2-6. Number 139 REP. KOTT presented his amendment 5, saying it would have the effect of allowing state funding for therapeutic abortions alone, and not elective abortions. He said the amendment reflected public outcry against public funding of abortion as a method of birth control. Number 150 CHAIR BUNDE commented that Rep. Kott's definition of the word "therapeutic" would be narrower than would be reflected in the testimony heard by the committee that day. REP. KOTT commented, "Perhaps." Number 151 REP. BRICE OBJECTED to the amendment. CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no discussion, called for a roll call vote on the amendment. Those voting yes were: Reps. G. Davis, Vezey and Kott. Those voting no were: Reps. Nicholia, Brice, Toohey, Bunde, Olberg and B. Davis. The motion FAILED 3-6. Number 169 REP. KOTT withdrew amendment 6 and submitted amendment 7, his final proposed amendment. He said amendment 7 was a technical change to help ensure that using the term procedure did not preclude non-surgical abortions, so that women would have a full range of choices in abortion services. He said the word "treatment" should be added as a broader term that would include any new technological innovations, such as the abortifacient RU-486. CHAIR BUNDE said some people might call RU-486 a procedure. There followed discussion among committee members about what constituted abortion "treatments" and abortion "procedures." Number 200 REP. G. DAVIS CALLED THE QUESTION. CHAIR BUNDE asked if Rep. Kott favored RU-486. REP. KOTT said he was not saying he favored it, but that if it was used, the state would not be required to pay for it without his amendment. CHAIR BUNDE asked whether Rep. Kott's intent was to allow the state to pay for RU-486 treatment. REP. KOTT said yes, if RU-486 became available. Number 217 CHAIR BUNDE invited Rep. Toohey, as a nurse, to differentiate between "treatment" and "procedure." REP. TOOHEY said she believed the terms were interchangeable, but it would be appropriate to consult the dictionary. There followed further discussion among committee members about what constituted "treatments" and "procedures." Number 234 CHAIR BUNDE read definitions of the terms in question from the dictionary. Number 241 REP. KOTT said he wanted to make sure the language in the bill was consistent, noting that section 3, line 24, included the terms "treatments" and "procedures." CHAIR BUNDE noted the difference in language, saying that lines 5-6 discuss a particular procedure, whereas lines 23- 24 speak of the abortion procedure as it related to other procedures and treatments which might be performed in addition to the abortion. He said he did not know if it was necessary, for continuity's sake, to have both terms. Number 272 MR. PHELPS said it was obvious that Rep. Kott opposed SB 53, but he would prefer to have it in as proper a form as possible if it were going to pass. He said he and Rep. Kott, in researching HB 154, had discovered potential differences in how the terms were used, and therefore were trying to apply that experience toward a friendly amendment to a bill they both opposed. REP. BRICE CALLED THE QUESTION. CHAIR BUNDE called for a roll call vote on the amendment. Those voting yes were: Reps. Vezey and Kott. Those voting no were: Reps. Brice, Toohey, Bunde, G. Davis, Olberg, B. Davis and Nicholia. The motion FAILED 2-7. Number 296 CHAIR BUNDE, hearing no further discussion on the main motion to pass CSSB 53(FIN) am(efd fld) out of committee, called for a roll call vote. REP. KOTT OBJECTED for purposes of discussion. He said in recent weeks members of the House had made hard choices to cut the budget. The House had voted to cut welfare benefits, Longevity Bonus payments, and property tax exemptions to senior citizen homeowners, and were considering cutting such benefits to renters and disabled veterans. He said that the move to cut state abortion funding must be looked at as another cost-cutting measure. He said the state would save money by paying for fewer than the 2,600 abortions performed in 1992. He said if the legislature was going to demonstrate consistency, it would have to cut the number of abortions. CHAIR BUNDE called for a vote on the main motion. Those voting yes were: Reps. Toohey, Bunde, Olberg, B. Davis, Nicholia and Brice. Those voting no were: Reps. G. Davis, Vezey and Kott. The motion PASSED 6-3. CHAIR BUNDE said, "And with that ... Number 327 REP. KOTT stated, "Mr. Chairman, I'd like to serve notice of reconsideration of my vote." CHAIR BUNDE said, "Reconsideration is duly noted, and that brings us to the end of business for today." REP. B. DAVIS asked if Rep. Kott was serious about asking for reconsideration. REP. KOTT answered that he was. REP. B. DAVIS said she had never heard of reconsideration at the committee level. Number 334 REP. KOTT asked the chair to call an at-ease so that he could present a legal opinion on the issue of reconsideration. CHAIR BUNDE called a two-minute at-ease at 4:45 p.m., and called the meeting back to order two minutes later. Number 338 REP. VEZEY said the matter was still in the committee's possession until the bill was transmitted to the House Clerk. Number 340 CHAIR BUNDE asked if it were not moot if the bill was physically in the committee's possession, regardless of whether the committee had adjourned. He said the bill could not be reconsidered until the committee was back in session. REP. OLBERG asked that the section of Mason's Manual could be read into the record. Number 330 LYNNE SMITH, HESS COMMITTEE AIDE, read Mason's Manual, section 635, which stated: "The standing or special committee has the right to reconsider any action taken by it so long as the subject matter remains in the possession of the committee. Reconsideration in a committee is generally subject to the same rules as in the body. The principal variations are that even when there is a time limit on the motion to reconsider in the main body, a reconsideration can be moved at any time while the matter still remains before the committee, and that reconsideration may be moved by any member even though he was absent when the vote was taken." Number 353 REP. TOOHEY asked if the committee could vote on the reconsideration at that time. CHAIR BUNDE stated, "We can vote on the reconsideration when the person who served notice of reconsideration ..." REP. BRICE said anyone could bring up notice of reconsideration. REP. TOOHEY MOVED a vote on the reconsideration. REP. BRICE seconded the motion. Number 359 CHAIR BUNDE read from the legal opinion which Rep. Kott had provided, which was written by Tam Cook, director of the Division of Legal Services of the Legislative Affairs Agency, dated March 30, 1993, (on file in the committee room), which said that the Uniform Rules were silent on the issue of reconsideration in committees, though committee procedures were less formal than procedures in the full house. He said that while the Uniform Rules did not address the issue, he said that Mason's Rules, under which the committee operated, did. (Rep. B. Davis departed at 4:49 p.m.) Number 374 CHAIR BUNDE read from Ms. Cook's letter, page two: "It seems clear that a motion to reconsider can be made in committee, and that the Uniform Rules apply to these motions to the extend that they can be made applicable, except that the time limit on making the motion does not apply." Number 382 REP. TOOHEY noted that there was a motion on the floor. CHAIR BUNDE read from Ms. Cook's letter, page two: "In practice the right is closely restricted in time because the motion cannot be made after the subject of the vote is out of possession of the body. So if a vote deals with reporting a bill from committee, notice of reconsideration must be given at the meeting the vote is taken. Otherwise the report may be read across and the matter will have left the possession of the committee." CHAIR BUNDE said, "You have the right for the motion of reconsideration. The question now is when is it brought up again, and who can do that." Number 390 REP. TOOHEY reminded Chair Bunde of her motion to vote on the motion for reconsideration. Number 393 CHAIR BUNDE asked the committee aide to re-read the relevant section of Mason's Manual. Number 396 MS. SMITH read Mason's Manual, section 635: "The standing or special committee has the right to reconsider any action taken by it so long as the subject matter remains in the possession of the committee. Reconsideration in a committee is generally subject to the same rules as in the body. The principal variations are that even when there is a time limit on the motion to reconsider in the main body, a reconsideration can be moved at any time while the matter still remains before the committee, and that reconsideration may be moved by any member even though he was absent when the vote was taken." CHAIR BUNDE stated, "See, the point is, you can move to reconsider, but who can then bring that reconsideration back up?" VARIOUS COMMITTEE MEMBERS answered that any member could move the reconsideration, even if absent. Number 350 CHAIR BUNDE noted the motion to bring up for reconsideration the vote on SB 53, and called for a roll call vote. Those voting yes were: Reps. Olberg, Nicholia, Brice, Toohey and Bunde. Those voting no were: Reps. Kott and Vezey. CHAIR BUNDE said, "We have before us House (Senate) Bill 53." REP. BRICE said, "I MOVE SB 53." CHAIR BUNDE called for a roll call vote. He then corrected himself to say Senate Bill 53. DAN SADDLER, COMMITTEE SECRETARY began calling the role, beginning with Rep. Olberg, who responded yes. MR. SADDLER then called for Rep. Nicholia's vote, who responded yes. Number 417 REP. KOTT stated, "Point of order. The two-thirds of the whole body is six. We failed to acquire that." CHAIR BUNDE said, "We will need six votes to pass this out of this committee." REP. BRICE asked, "Or do you need three to stop it?" In general discussion among committee members, it was not clear whether a two-thirds vote of the whole committee, or two-thirds of the members present, was necessary. CHAIR BUNDE said, "We will stand at ease for five minutes." He immediately reconvened the meeting and ADJOURNED the meeting at 4:45 p.m.