HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES April 29, 1998 5:08 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Representative Alan Austerman, Chairman Representative Ivan Ivan Representative Mark Hodgins MEMBERS ABSENT Representative Scott Ogan Representative Gene Kubina COMMITTEE CALENDAR * HOUSE BILL NO. 489 "An Act relating to the transponders on commercial fishing vessels; and providing for an effective date." - REMOVED FROM AGENDA HOUSE BILL NO. 483 "An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date." - HEARD AND HELD (* First public hearing) PREVIOUS ACTION BILL: HB 483 SHORT TITLE: SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES SPONSOR(S): RULES Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action 4/07/98 2906 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S) 4/07/98 2906 (H) FISHERIES, RESOURCES 4/15/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124 4/15/98 (H) MINUTE(FSH) 4/29/98 (H) FSH AT 5:00 PM CAPITOL 124 WITNESS REGISTER JIM HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant to Representative Peter Kott Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 204 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-6848 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 483( ). AMY DAUGHERTY, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Alan Austerman Alaska State Legislature Capitol Building, Room 434 Juneau, Alaska 99801 Telephone: (907) 465-4230 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 483( ). VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member Board of Fisheries 878 Lynwood Way North Pole, Alaska 99705 Telephone: (907) 456-3885 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 483( ). JOEL HARD, Representative Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency P.O. Box 388 Palmer, Alaska 99645-0388 Telephone: (907) 746-9139 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on CSHB 483( ). ALAN LEMASTER P.O. Box 222 Gakona, Alaska 99586 Telephone: (907) 822-3664 POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 483( ). JAY BELLINGER, Refuge Manager Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge 468 Lilly Dr. Kodiak, Alaska 99615 Telephone: NOT PROVIDED POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of CSHB 483( ). ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 98-16, SIDE A Number 0001 CHAIRMAN ALAN AUSTERMAN called the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting to order at 5:08 p.m. Members present at the call to order were Representatives Austerman, Ivan and Hodgins. HB 483 - SPORT FISH COMMERCIAL SERVICES Number 0044 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN announced that the committee would hear HB 483, "An Act relating to processors of sport caught fish; requiring certain nonresident alien sport fishermen to be accompanied by a sport fishing guide; and providing for an effective date." Number 0123 JIM HORNADAY, Legislative Assistant to Representative Peter Kott, stated that he hoped to have a more completed committee substitute to the bill, but he was not able to do so. He stated that the overall purpose of the bill is to improve the stewardship of the fisheries. Section 1 deals with non-resident alien sport fishermen, requiring them to be with a registered sport fish guides. He stated that this will hopefully curtail mistakes and abuses by aliens who are not familiar with the fish and game regulations. MR. HORNADAY stated that Section 2, requires processors of sport fish to register with the Department of Fish and Game as well as maintain records of the sport fish process. He stated that he is referring to CSHB 483( ), Version Q, and stated that a new Section 1 has been added and it contains much of the language embodied in HB 19. He referred to Section 1, page 1, and stated that it would be a Class A misdemeanor offense for a non-resident alien sport fisherman to take salmon without a guide. The maximum penalty is a $5,000 fine or a year in jail or both. Number 0352 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if it was correct that "the original bill did not have a registered guide with it." MR. HORNADAY stated that was his understanding. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if that was the basic change for that section. AMY DAUGHERTY, Legislative Administrative Assistant to Representative Alan Austerman, stated that the only change in that is section is taking out the exemption for Mexicans. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that there is reference to license under AS 16.40.270 and AS 16.40.280 which was not in the original bill. Number 0435 MR. HORNADAY asked why was Mexico taken out. Number 0445 MS. DAUGHERTY stated that the Attorney General's office informed them that the NAFTA provisions did not apply to this recreational sport fishery, only to the commercial guiding business. She stated that the sponsor could have pulled out the reference to Canada but there was a concern expressed that it would be problematic since a lot of Canadians come to Alaska to sport fish on week-ends. Number 0549 REPRESENTATIVE MARK HODGINS stated that he needed to declare a conflict of interest. His family members are sport guides and big game hunter/outfitters. He stated that some portions of this bill would benefit his family and himself. Number 0614 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that it is noted but he will still be required to vote. Number 0621 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN IVAN stated that he also has a conflict of interest, as he is a shareholder in a corporation that owns a sport fishing lodge. Number 0626 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that it is so noted and that he would be required to vote as well. Number 0636 MR. HORNADAY stated that there is a change in the definition of processing on page 2, line 30, the word "butchering" has been taken out. He explained that AS 16.40.270 and AS 16.40.280 puts some requirements in the bill. He stated that on page 5, AS 16.40.290, lists the graded penalties, from a Class A misdemeanor to a violation. He stated that in AS 16.40.295 are definitions that have been worked out over the years. Number 0820 MR. HORNADAY stated that Representative Kott is concerned with Section 1 and obtaining workable wording that would permit non- resident alien sport fishermen's friends or acquaintances, who come over to fish for a short period of time, to not have to hire a guide. He explained that Representative Kott is concerned with developing a compelling state interest as was developed for the hunting guide requirement, under safety and resource protection reasons. Mr. Hornaday stated that Section 1 has arisen as a result of testimony that the committee has heard over a number of years. He stated that the "Wasilla Board of Fish" was concerned with this issue as well as the Kodiak refuge. He indicated that the legal department has notified the committee that there could be a possible constitutional problem with Section 1. He stated that the processing requirements in Section 2 are supported by the "department". Number 1034 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that he understood the desire on page 3, Article 6 to define a sport fish operator as it was defined in HB 19, which did pass the House. He stated that he assumed that they are looking to put Article 6 in the bill, to give definition to the guides that are being referred to in Section 1. Number 1134 MS. DAUGHERTY stated that was correct. She pointed out that testimony, particularly from the Division of Sport Fish at the last hearing of this bill, indicated that it was almost rhetorical to have the non-resident alien sport fishermen guide requirement in the bill. She said "If anyone, at any time, just needed to send in the registration to the department to be a guide." She explained that about two years ago, there were some requirements developed through the guide charter task force and the director of the Division of Sport Fish indicated that it would be better to use these requirements that were already hammered out. She stated the director was also supportive of incorporating the definitions in the bill. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Umphenour, if he had a chance to go through the bill. Number 1304 VIRGIL UMPHENOUR, Member, Board of Fisheries, testified via teleconference from Phoenix that he has and what Amy stated was correct, the board and the guide charter task force has been working on this for three years and those definitions are a result. He stated that CSHB 483( ) is a good product. Number 1421 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Hard if he had a chance to look at the bill and what he thought of it. JOEL HARD, Representative, Fish and Wildlife Protection Agency testified via teleconference from Palmer, that "[The agency] supports HB 19 and has worked with the sport fish division to come up with a fiscal note associated with HB 19 to try and improve the sport fish guiding requirement language and this is halfway there." He stated that the committee has his comments on HB 483 in letter form. He pointed out that he would have a discussion with the commission in regards to the added language of HB 19 because it is such an important issue, this bill needs to have more evaluation. Number 1530 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he would do that and send the comments to him and if they do move the bill out tonight he will forward those comments to the House Resources Standing Committee, which is were the bill will be heard next. MR. HARD stated that he would do that. Number 1537 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked Mr. Lemaster if he had a chance to read to the bill. Number 1552 ALAN LEMASTER, testified via teleconference from Gakona that he is reading it as the committee proceeds, as he just received it this afternoon. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that if he had any comments he could forward them to the committee. Number 1606 JAY BELLINGER, Refuge Manager, Kodiak National Wildlife Refuge, testified via teleconference from Kodiak that he has been Refuge Manager for 15 years. He stated that in Kodiak there are groups of non-resident alien sport fishermen mainly from European countries, as they have interviewed people from Austria, Germany, France and Italy. He said, "The ones that know the regulations are all just friends, however they have written tickets to two operators in the past six years for illegal commercial operation on the refuge." He explained that they are supposed to have a refuge special use permit, if they are guiding on the refuge. The two individuals admitted they were guiding on the river and tickets were written. He stated that they are observing the non-resident alien sport fishery to be primarily interested in, "a meat fishery", which is fishing to build up the maximum pounds of salmon to export to their country. He stated that they primarily have observed this type of fishing with the non-resident alien fishermen and have only observed this with one non-resident sport fisherman and never with resident sport fishermen. He stated that the real guides, the Alaskan sport fish guides, normally restrict the number of fish that the clients can take. He stated that there are two groups of the nonresident alien's that are guiding groups of their countrymen on the refuge. He said "The ones that don't know the scoop and admit that they are guiding, we've been ticketing. The ones that know what's going on -- the only one that can speak English of the group is probably the guide so you can't build a case." He stated that more fish are being taken in the fields by these groups. Number 1954 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he had read the bill. MR. BELLINGER replied that he has. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked for his impression of the bill. Number 2009 MR. BELLINGER stated that for years he has hoped that the state would control sport fish guiding and there is a good situation with big game guides. He stated that this bill would be quite an improvement. Number 2034 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if it was correct that he controls the sport fish guides that he knows of on the refuge. MR. BELLINGER stated that the Alaska residents that are sport fish guiding have to have a refuge special use permit and there are only so many allowed in certain areas so there is not a conflict between the commercial operators and the guided and unguided fishermen. He stated that they also try to make sure that there isn't a conflict between the fishermen and the bears. He stated that the situation with the guided alien groups is that they can not prove that they are guides which is causing the problems. Number 2112 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if the non-guided residents of the U.S. have to have a special use permit. Number 2121 MR. BELLINGER replied that they do not. It is just the guides. He stated that they have a law enforcement camp on the Ayakulik River which is one of the two main king salmon fishing rivers on the Kodiak for about the last seven years. He stated that they staff that camp straight through the peak time of king salmon fishing. He stated that therefore, they are talking to every group that goes out there on that river for a three to four week period. He stated that they have good documentation of what is going on. Number 2210 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if he sees the "meat-type fishing" on the Ayakulik River. MR. BELLINGER replied that he has watched it on the Ayakulik River and he as heard it happens on the Karluk River. Number 2255 MR. UMPHENOUR stated that this is not only a problem in Kodiak, it is a problem in many other places. At every Board of Fisheries meeting this problem is brought up. He stated that they have had a large number of complaints. He stated that there are many cases where the non-resident alien fishermen can not speak English, or read the regulations. He stated that he is a commercial processor of commercial and sport caught fish. He informed the committee that he heard a story of a French airline pilot who had in excess of 3,100 pounds of smoked salmon that was processed in Anchorage and sent home. He stated that Bud Hodson, a sport fish lodge owner in Bristol Bay, told him that one French owned operation was sending two Beaver loads of king salmon a day from the Nushagak to Anchorage to be smoked. He stated that he has heard of these types of offenses in the entire state. He stated that there is also a "mother ship" problem in Southeast Alaska, where there are alien cruise ships with small boats that fish offshore, taking king salmon. He asserted that the non-resident alien sport fishermen issue is a big problem and this bill is a step in the right direction. Number 2516 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS made a motion to adopt CSHB 483( ), Version Q, 4/29/98. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN asked if there was an objection. Hearing none, CSHB 483( ), Version Q, 4/29/98 was adopted. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that Representative Kott had several questions regarding the bill. He asked Mr. Hornaday if he wanted to address them in this committee or in the Resources Committee. Number 2603 MR. HORNADAY replied that assuming that they could work on it in the Resources Committee, this committee might as well move it out. He stated that he would defer to the chair and the members. Number 2632 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he has some problems with the bill. He stated that according to the bill anybody who freezes fish must then have a processor's licence. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that is not intent. He stated that they have had some discussions and the word "butchering" was taken out of it. He stated that his staff has talked to several people in regard to this issue. Number 2721 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he did not want someone to have to make the choice of putting fish in the freezer and preserving it or letting it rot because they do not have a processing license. Number 2753 MS. DAUGHERTY stated that she has spoke with the Department of Economic Conservation and "essentially sport fish does not have to have a processors license unless it is canned or smoked at which point you do have to get a processors license." According to the Department of Economic Conservation freezing is not included with in the definition of processing. She stated that the department assured her that no processing license is required unless the lodge partakes in canning or smoking of the sport fish product. She stated that the bill is just setting out who would have to maintain records on the sport fish that is processed. She stated that it is written so that people that just have charter guide businesses would not have maintain those records as long as they did not freeze or ship the fish in boxes. She stated that as soon as they did prepare a fish for shipment including vacuum packaging or wrapping, they would have to maintain records. She stated that they were trying to avoid guides who simply would clean, gut and fillet the fish for their clients. She stated that the section originated from the Board of Fisheries' resolution that expresses a frustration with the numerous fish being shipped out of the state every summer from coastal towns without documentation. She stated that this would help enforcement and the Department of Public Safety has come out in strong support of this section. Number 3027 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS stated that he could not support this bill and with only three members here it will not move out of committee. He stated that he has some problems with the bill and he does not want to be put in a position to vote on the bill, but if he has to he will vote against it. Number 3103 CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN stated that the only conflict that he wants to state is that "because of the context of some this language that has been put in here from HB 19, which is sitting in Senate Resources. I don't want it to be perceived that I am (INDISC.) any methodology at all of trying to roll any of my bills out of Senate Resources. This draft is not my draft it is coming from the sponsor." Number 3140 REPRESENTATIVE HODGINS asked how similar was HB 19 to this bill. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that "all the language from page 3, line 6 back is HB 19." It actually defines what a sport fish guide is. He stated that was not in the original bill. He stated that he could understand why the sponsor wants it in the bill, because it does define what this bill is speaking to. Number 3222 REPRESENTATIVE IVAN asked if HB 19 is in the other body and this bill contains the same language. CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN replied that after page 3, it is language that was passed out of the House in HB 19 but is sitting in the Senate Resources Standing Committee. He stated that there are not enough votes to move it out tonight, and there probably will not be time to move it out of the committee this session. ADJOURNMENT CHAIRMAN AUSTERMAN adjourned the House Special Committee on Fisheries meeting at 5:43 p.m.