HB 201-MUNICIPAL REGULATION OF TRAPPING    8:03:12 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH announced that the first order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 201, "An Act relating to municipal regulation of trapping; and providing for an effective date." 8:03:40 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER moved to adopt Amendment 1 to HB 201, labeled 30-LS0628\A.4, Bullard, 4/12/17, which read as follows: Page 2, following line 13: Insert a new subsection to read: "(d) A municipality may not enact an ordinance under this section that eliminates reasonable opportunities for subsistence trapping of game within its boundaries." Reletter the following subsection accordingly. 8:05:06 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO objected for discussion purposes, then removed his objection. 8:05:24 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH announced that there being no further objection, Amendment 1 was adopted. 8:05:30 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO offered his understanding that Representative Saddler had requested some amendments but was not present to offer them; therefore, he said he would offer the amendments on Representative Saddler's behalf. 8:05:47 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO moved to adopt Amendment 2 to HB 201, labeled 30-LS0628\A.1, Bullard, 4/11/17, which read as follows: Page 1, line 10, following "protect": Insert "human" CO-CHAIR FANSLER objected. 8:06:10 AM The committee took a brief at-ease at 8:06 a.m. 8:06:49 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH called the meeting back to order to explain the reason for the at-ease and to outline the agenda going forward. 8:07:30 AM The committee took an at-ease from 8:08 a.m. to 8:10 a.m. 8:10:44 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO pointed out that if Amendment 2 was adopted, then the sentence it amends would read as follows: "A municipality may regulate trapping to protect human life and property within its boundaries and may exempt trappers from municipal regulation for good cause." 8:11:32 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER requested feedback from the bill sponsor as to whether Amendment 2 is necessary. 8:11:44 AM REPRESENTATIVE ANDY JOSEPHSON, Alaska State Legislature, as prime sponsor of HB 201, said Amendment 2 is redundant, because "in that sentence, what's described is clearly not to regulate trapping to protect wild animals, because that's not necessarily the purpose of this ordinance at all." He said he is not sure what Amendment 2 would add. Further, he said because there is not a comma following "life", the sentence could be interpreted to mean protection of human life and human property, and since "property" is "sort of a human term," he does not know what other kind of property there is. 8:12:40 AM MEGAN ROWE, Staff, Representative Andy Josephson, Alaska State Legislature, on behalf of Representative Josephson, prime sponsor of HB 201, said the term "life" implies human life. She said she thinks the purpose of Amendment 2 is to clarify that "life" means "human life", so a municipality cannot argue it is trying to protect animal life. She suggested "human" could be added in multiple places. For example, adding it preceding "properties" would clarify that the protection is not intended for beaver dams, for example. Nevertheless, she added that she did not think Amendment 2 would have "a huge effect." 8:13:32 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO offered his understanding that "the intent of the sponsor [of Amendment 2] ... was to differentiate ... between wild animals and domestic animals." He said domestic animals could be considered the property of someone, whereas wild animals would be considered "community property of all the residents of the state of Alaska." 8:14:53 AM REPRESENTATIVE WESTLAKE asked if there is anything wrong with being redundant. 8:15:21 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON answered no, but opined that the reading is "sort of clunky and a little awkward." Notwithstanding that, he said he took Representative Westlake's point and is "indifferent about it." 8:15:41 AM REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND directed attention to the phrase "damage to persons or property" on page 2, line 2, and said she doesn't know why "this needs to be different." She noted that "persons or property" appears in several places on page 2. She said she does not think Amendment 2 is necessary. REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND [moved to adopt] an amendment to Amendment 2, to [delete] "human" from Amendment 2 and change the word "life" to "persons". 8:16:24 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER asked for the sponsor's feedback regarding the proposed amendment to Amendment 2. 8:16:51 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON told Representative Drummond that if Mr. Bullard was available to comment, he would like to hear his opinion. He stated, "I think it's a very fine idea." CO-CHAIR PARISH noted Mr. Bullard was not on line, but listed others who were available for comment, including Cheryl Brooking from the Department of Law. He questioned whether the addition of "human", as proposed under Amendment 2, would make a substantive difference. 8:17:19 AM CHERYL BROOKING, Assistant Attorney General, Natural Resources Section, Civil Division (Anchorage), Department of Law (DOL), in response to Co-Chair Parish, said the phrase "in defense of life and property" has been established for quite some time, and she suggested that a representative of the Department of Public Safety could address how that is enforced. 8:18:31 AM REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND, in response to Co-Chair Parish, said she maintained her motion to adopt the amendment to Amendment 2. 8:18:37 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO expressed support for the proposed amendment to Amendment 2. 8:19:02 AM REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND, in response to Co-Chair Parish, offered that the amendment to Amendment 2 would delete "life" and insert "persons", on page 1, line 10. 8:19:22 AM REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER objected to the amendment to Amendment 2 for discussion purposes. He asked for confirmation regarding what the amendment proposed by Representative Drummond would amend. CO-CHAIR PARISH clarified that the discussion pertained to the amendment to Amendment 2. 8:19:46 AM MS. ROWE offered her understanding that [Representative Drummond] had offered an amendment to HB 201 and not to Amendment 2. CO-CHAIR PARISH indicated that is a fair assessment. 8:20:06 AM REPRESENTAIVE RAUSCHER stated, "Then I remove my objection." CO-CHAIR PARISH offered his understanding that the amendment offered by Representative Drummond would replace [Amendment 2]. REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO requested the committee take an at-ease. 8:20:27 AM The committee took an at-ease from 8:20 a.m. to 8:22 a.m. [Although the recording clock was not stopped during this time, the audio was turned off for the duration of the at-ease.] 8:22:39 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH explained that under the amendment to Amendment 2, on page 1, line 10, [the word "human" proposed under Amendment 2 would be deleted, and the word "life" would be replaced by the word "persons".] As such, he clarified that the resulting language would read: A municipality may regulate trapping to protect persons and property within its boundaries [The amendment to Amendment 2 was treated as adopted.] 8:23:49 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH asked Representative Rauscher if he maintained his "objection to the amendment as amended." REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER, after receiving further clarification about the intent of the amendment to Amendment 2, said, "All right, I remove my objection." 8:24:37 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER maintained his objected to Amendment 2, [as amended], to hear from the bill sponsor. 8:24:53 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON said he does not know "whether we now lose a line of cases in statutes that use the term 'life and property'," but he said people are familiar with the term "defense of life and property". He indicated that the change will read more consistently on both pages of the bill. He said he thinks the change is probably okay, but suggested hearing again from Ms. Brooking may be helpful. 8:25:38 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH asked if legal standing would be lost as a result of Amendment 2, as amended. MS. BROOKING answered that she thinks the language is similar and "the record you are developing would help certainly in determining the intent of what this statute would ultimately mean"; however, she does not know if the change would have a significant impact on how the law is interpreted. 8:26:56 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER withdrew his objection to Amendment 2, as amended. There being no further objection, it was so ordered. 8:27:11 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO moved to adopt Amendment 3 to HB 201, labeled 30-LS0628\A.2, Bullard, 4/11/17, which read as follows:    Page 1, line 11: Delete "regulation" Insert "trapping ordinances" CO-CHAIR PARISH objected for discussion purposes. CO-CHAIR FANSLER objected. REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO said since [HB 201] pertains specifically to the regulation of trapping, he thinks exempting trappers from municipal regulation, rather than just the trapping ordinances that are adopted by local municipalities, seems broad. He stated his assumption that "we wouldn't have trappers come in and say, 'Well, I'm a trapper and I'd like to be exempted from the borough's property tax' or ... some other stipulation that might be within a municipality." 8:28:55 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER requested feedback from the bill sponsor. 8:29:07 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON opined that the language, as is, is stylistically better. He pointed out that the language follows the heading of "Regulation of trapping"; therefore, it is clear that the subject is trapping. He indicated that he does not have a problem with Amendment 3, but finds it to be "a little bit clunky." CO-CHAIR FANSLER said he would like to hear from Ms. Brooking. 8:30:06 AM MS. BROOKING stated that the change proposed under Amendment 3, from "regulation" to "trapping ordinances", would be more accurate. She explained that when a municipal government adopts a rule of law, it is an ordinance. The code of municipalities is considered a code of ordinances. CO-CHAIR FANSLER asked to hear a response from the bill sponsor. 8:30:35 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON said, "It's almost like asking which form of poetry is your favorite." He said he respectfully does not really agree with Ms. Brooking. He said local governments will understand the term "to regulate." 8:31:30 AM REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND said under Amendment 3, the Municipality of Anchorage would have to have a set of trapping ordinances, which she said she does not think it would do. She surmised that the municipality would defer to what the state's trapping regulations already are. She concluded, "What we're talking about here is ... making municipal ordinances that cause the interpretation of state trapping regulations to be applied differently within this municipality. I don't think this amendment is necessary, and I would not support it." 8:32:41 AM REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER said he appreciates the comments of [Representative Drummond], but he said he thinks "municipal regulation" is a broad term. Further, he said, "I think once this is adopted, the only way a municipality will be able to regulate this is through ordinances that they will have to write." He expressed support for Amendment 3. 8:34:10 AM REPRESENTATIVE WESTLAKE said the issue is local control. He said the intent should not be to pass on the cost to boroughs to enforce state regulation. He encouraged writing ordinances at the local level, and he expressed support of [Amendment 3]. 8:35:05 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER removed his objection to the motion to adopt Amendment 3. 8:35:26 AM REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND maintained her objection to Amendment 3. 8:35:34 AM A roll call vote was taken. Representatives Westlake, Talerico, Rauscher, and Fansler voted in favor of the motion to adopt Amendment 3. Representatives Drummond and Parish voted against it. Therefore, Amendment 3 was adopted by a vote of 4-2. 8:36:14 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO moved to adopt Amendment 4 to HB 201, labeled 30-LS0628\A.3, Bullard, 4/11/17, which read as follows: Page 2, lines 4 - 5: Delete "persons, property, or nontargeted species" Insert "persons or property" 8:36:29 AM The committee took an at-ease from 8:36 a.m. to 8:37 a.m. 8:37:42 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER objected to the motion to adopt Amendment 4. REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO spoke to Amendment 4. He related that someone he knows, who has much experience related to the issue, told him that although there may be a targeted species along a trapline, occasionally there may be another species that is caught in a trap, which Representative Talerico explained is the reason for proposing the removal of the language "nontargeted species". 8:39:15 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON stated that he does not oppose Amendment 4. 8:39:23 AM REPRESENTATIVE FANSLER removed his objection to the motion to adopt Amendment 4. REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER objected for discussion purposes. He noted that during a prior bill hearing, the committee had heard that [the inclusion of the language] "nontargeted species" was problematic. He expressed support for Amendment 4. REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER removed his objection to Amendment 4. There being no further objection, Amendment 4 was adopted. 8:40:35 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER moved to report HB 201, as amended, out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. 8:41:00 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO objected for discussion purposes. He shared that he gets "squishy" whenever the legislature makes changes that affect Title 29, because it involves municipal government, and occasionally the legislature has made what it considers to be insignificant changes within Title 29, but those changes have greatly affected municipalities. He said municipalities have requirements on how they adopt powers and make ordinances, and the changes from the legislature almost come across as unfunded mandates. He said he gets nervous when changes are made to Title 29, without significant input from local governments. REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO removed his objection. 8:42:12 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH, for discussion purposes, objected to the motion to report HB 201, as amended, out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. 8:42:20 AM REPRESENTATIVE WESTLAKE asked, "Now that we've moved it over to ordinances rather than regulations here, does that free you from that trap of fiscal responsibility?" 8:42:35 AM MS. ROWE answered that the terms "regulation" and "ordinance" are interchangeable. Regulation means "general regulation of ... people within the municipality." REPRESENTATIVE WESTLAKE clarified that he would like to know if the legislature would be passing an unfunded mandate. MS. ROWE answered no, because the proposed legislation would give discretionary ability to municipalities to regulate. 8:43:16 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH noted that there were still experts available to answer questions. In response to Representative Rauscher, he confirmed that public testimony had been taken at the prior hearing of HB 201 and, upon ascertaining that there was no one currently who wished to testify, he announced that public testimony would remained closed. REPRESENTATIVE RAUSCHER expressed concern regarding the [unintended consequences of making changes to] Title 29. 8:44:31 AM REPRESENTATIVE DRUMMOND stated that the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee is charged with making laws that allow municipalities to operate more efficiently and in the best interest of their citizens. She remarked that the Municipality of Anchorage has 41 percent of the state's population in three-tenths of one percent of the state's square miles. She commented on the close quarters in Anchorage and said tempers get frayed. She stated her belief that the Municipality of Anchorage needs the flexibility to make ordinances that protect its citizens. She said [the proposed legislation] would not require any municipality to impact Title 29, and she said she trusts each municipality will go through their public processes with their elected officials. She stated that she does not want to fail to pass this law and then have some child severely injured because of a negligent trapper. She stated, "We are never going to stop people who have no common sense, but we really do need to give our municipalities the tools to put the laws in place that will protect their people and their pets. Those are important things to people." She stated support of HB 201, [as amended]. 8:46:34 AM CO-CHAIR FANSLER said he would like to hear from Hazel Nelson to find out whether "the subsistence modification that we placed through" allay "some of the fears that she might have presented on Tuesday." 8:47:05 AM HAZEL NELSON, Director, Division of Subsistence, Alaska Department of Fish & Game (ADF&G), said she appreciates the additional language that has been inserted. She offered her understanding that "the amendment that was included this morning is intended to reflect current state law that is similar to what's found in [AS] 16.05.258, that reasonable opportunity would mean the same as it does in current statute." CO-CHAIR FANSLER said it makes him happy to know that Ms. Nelson does not still have cause for concern. He commented on the coexistence of trapping and trail use in rural areas, and he emphasized how important he thinks subsistence is. He said he thinks local communities can make the determinations [about issues that affect them] better than can be made at the state level. He expressed support of HB 201, [as amended]. 8:49:18 AM REPRESENTATIVE TALERICO expressed concern that under HB 201, as amended, there may be a scenario that as proposals come to ADF&G, the department might say, "That's up to the municipality". He said if the department does that, it would not only remove the science and data of the department, but would also make the municipality responsible for enforcement. He added, "But municipalities can make that decision." CO-CHAIR PARISH commented that five out of the six members currently present on the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee would be vetting the bill again as members of the House Resources Standing Committee. 8:50:41 AM REPRESENTATIVE JOSEPHSON offered his understanding that the Board of Game tries to mirror its proposals with municipal ordinance. 8:50:57 AM CO-CHAIR PARISH removed his objection to the motion to report HB 201, as amended, out of committee with individual recommendations and the accompanying fiscal notes. There being no further objection, CSHB 201(CRA) was reported out of the House Community and Regional Affairs Standing Committee.