03/10/2009 01:00 PM Senate TRANSPORTATION
| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SB48 | |
| SB53 | |
| Adjourn |
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| SB 48 | |||
| * | SB 53 | ||
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE TRANSPORTATION STANDING COMMITTEE
March 10, 2009
1:03 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Albert Kookesh, Chair
Senator Linda Menard, Vice Chair
Senator Bettye Davis
Senator Kevin Meyer
Senator Joe Paskvan
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE BILL NO. 48
"An Act exempting municipal service area boards from the
requirements of conducting meetings open to the public when
meeting about road conditions affected by harsh weather."
MOVED CSSB 48(CRA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
SENATE BILL NO. 53
"An Act making special appropriations for bridge repairs and
construction and road construction; and providing for an
effective date."
MOVED SB 53 OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SB 48
SHORT TITLE: MEETINGS OF ROAD SERVICE AREA BOARDS
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) THERRIAULT
01/21/09 (S) PREFILE RELEASED 1/9/09
01/21/09 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/21/09 (S) CRA, TRA, JUD
02/10/09 (S) CRA AT 3:30 PM BELTZ 211
02/10/09 (S) Moved CSSB 48(CRA) Out of Committee
02/10/09 (S) MINUTE(CRA)
02/11/09 (S) CRA RPT CS 4DP 1NR NEW TITLE
02/11/09 (S) DP: OLSON, THOMAS, KOOKESH, MENARD
02/11/09 (S) NR: FRENCH
03/10/09 (S) TRA AT 1:00 PM BUTROVICH 205
BILL: SB 53
SHORT TITLE: APPROP.: BRIDGES, SERVICE ROADS, TRAILS
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) THERRIAULT
01/21/09 (S) PREFILE RELEASED 1/9/09
01/21/09 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
01/21/09 (S) TRA, FIN
03/10/09 (S) TRA AT 1:00 PM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
ERNEST PRAX, Staff
to Senator Therriault
Alaska Capitol Building
Juneau AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Introduced SB 48 on behalf of the sponsor.
RENEE BROKER, Attorney
Fairbanks North Star Borough
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for SB 48.
SHAWN KITTLE, Commissioner
Chena Spur Road Service Area
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for SB 48.
LUKE HOPKINS, Member
Fairbanks North Star Borough Assembly
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for SB 48.
TIM BECK, Member
Fairbanks North Star Borough Assembly and
Chair, Fairbanks Assembly Road Service Area Committee
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for SB 48.
RONALD ELLINGWORTH, Chair
Twenty-Three Mile Slough Road Service Area
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for SB 48.
SENATOR GENE THERRIAULT
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SB 48 and SB 53.
ROGER HEALY, Chief Engineer
Division of Design & Engineering Services
Department of Transportation and Public Facilities
Juneau AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided supporting information related to
SB 53.
BRAD SCHWARTZ, Transportation Planning Manager
Matanuska-Susitna Borough
Palmer AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of SB 53.
ACTION NARRATIVE
1:03:36 PM
CHAIR ALBERT KOOKESH called the Senate Transportation Standing
Committee meeting to order at 1:03 p.m. Present at the call to
order were Senators Menard , Paskvan, Davis, Meyer and Kookesh.
SB 48-MEETINGS OF ROAD SERVICE AREA BOARDS
1:04:10 PM
CHAIR KOOKESH announced the consideration of SB 48.
ERNEST PRAX, Staff to Senator Therriault, said the original
version of SB 48 spoke to helping road service commissions
quickly respond to issues related to harsh weather conditions
and still comply with the Open Meetings Act. Under that Act a
public hearing notice has to be posted before taking action to
respond to issues such as a heavy snow fall or a washed out
road. Following discussions with the Fairbanks North Star
Borough, a committee substitute (CS) was developed to expand the
open meetings exemption to all municipal boards, committees,
commissions, and other similar bodies meeting that conduct
administrative or managerial business.
1:06:38 PM
The CS also streamlines the definition of "meeting" under AS
44.62.310(h)(2). Under current statute the meeting requirements
for advisory bodies are more stringent than those for policy
making bodies. The bill establishes that the open meetings
requirements for advisory bodies are the same as the
requirements for government agencies that are authorized to
establish public policy. This provides consistency in what
constitutes a meeting, he said.
1:08:44 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN asked if a road service area member would be
required to report back to the other board members if he or she
made an administrative or managerial decision.
MR. PRAX said he doesn't believe any follow-up is required, but
he would defer to Renee Broker.
SENATOR PASKVAN added that he's trying to figure out how the
reporting requirement will work because the individual service
district member may define "solely administrative" or "solely
managerial" differently than the board.
1:10:15 PM
RENEE BROKER, Attorney, Fairbanks North Star Borough, informed
the committee that service area boards typically have only three
service area board members. So as it stands right now, those
commissioners can not talk to one another about road service
area issues because doing so would constitute a meeting. This
exemption is designed to allow the commissioners to talk before
making a decision. One commissioner would be able to pick up the
phone and call the other commissioners and discuss which pot-
hole needs attention first, for example. The whole purpose of
this is to increase communication so everyone is more informed
of a decision. Now some service areas get around the open
meeting requirement in order to act quickly to fix a plugged
culvert or some other situation by delegating all decision-
making authority to just one commissioner. When that is done
there is no communication or input until the next regularly
scheduled meeting. It is only then that the other commissioners
find out what was done and the attached cost.
1:13:25 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN said his question is whether there would be any
reporting to the full board about an administrative decision to
confront the emergency; a policy-setting decision is to fix one
road over another while an emergency-management decision is to
order a load of gravel for a road washout.
MS. BROKER reminded the committee that a service area does not
address a borough-wide function. These small service areas do
not have employees but they are functioning as the equivalent of
a public works department. Public works decisions about which
street to plow first and which pot-hole to fix are typically
made by municipal employees and not in the context of an open
meeting. This transfers that same concept to the borough and
allows small service areas that don't have public works
departments or employees to make day-to-day decisions and
provide prompt efficient service to their constituents. SB 48
allows road service area commissioners to consult with one
another about a decision just like employees in a department
would consult.
1:15:45 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN questioned whether this might result in service
area boards not holding meetings.
MS. BROKER explained that service areas are required to meet
quarterly. In addition to their managerial role, service area
commissioners have eight other duties all of which require
meetings. These are policy making obligations like recommending
a budget to the assembly, recommending a mill rate levy, and
putting together a list of projects for funding.
SENATOR PASKVAN asked what other entities would fall within the
parameters of "boards, committees, commissions, or other similar
bodies."
MS. BROKER said in the Fairbanks North Star Borough the fire
service areas are the only other boards or commissions that
would be affected. This is limited to service area
responsibilities where boards and commissions are fulfilling the
role that would otherwise be performed by employees.
SENATOR PASKVAN asked if she is aware of any other areas of the
state that would need such a broad exemption for anything other
that road service districts.
MS. BROKER said no; she doesn't recall other borough attorneys
throughout the state mentioning a problem occurring other than
with respect to service areas.
1:17:55 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN recapped his two areas of concern, which relate
to reporting back to the full board on whatever managerial
action was taken and whether this might apply to entities other
than road service districts.
SENATOR KOOKESH clarified that the committee is discussing the
CRA committee substitute, also known as version E.
SENATOR MENARD noted that she doesn't have a sponsor statement
in the bill packet.
SENATOR PASKVAN observed that the analysis section of the fiscal
note indicates that this is limited to service area boards so
they can respond quickly to hazardous road conditions. He
doesn't have a problem allowing that but he isn't sure that it
doesn't apply to a lot more than that. Page 2, line 12, mentions
"boards, committees, commissions, or other similar bodies" so
it's unclear whether it's an overly broad application. "Again, I
don't mind them having the ability to fix the road, but I don't
know that we need to go beyond that," he said.
CHAIR KOOKESH asked Ms. Broker if she would like to testify on
the bill.
1:22:48 PM
MS BROKER, Attorney, stated support for SB 48 on behalf of the
Fairbanks North Star Borough (FNSB). The bill fixes two
unintended consequences of the Open Meetings Act without
affecting the important public policy goals and intent of the
Act. The public continues to have the ability to participate in
the legislative process and FNSB believes that this will result
in a stronger more defensible Act. It's already recognized that
public employees who perform administrative and managerial
functions can not effectively perform those duties and still
comply with the Act so they are exempted. SB 48 simply extends
that principle to volunteer boards and commissions in the rare
instances where they are performing the same duties that would
otherwise be performed by paid employees.
The second fix addresses and clarifies that the same numerical
standard that policy making bodies live under will also apply to
advisory bodies. That standard should not be more stringent for
advisory bodies that are simply making recommendations. Under
current law three of the nine borough assembly members can sit
down and discuss an issue, but three members of a nine member
advisory body can't do that. "We don't think that was intended
and we don't think that makes any sense so we strongly support
this bill," she said.
1:25:06 PM
SHAWN KITTLE, Commissioner, Chena Spur Road Service Area,
Fairbanks, reported that this issue was brought forward at the
February 23 meeting and a motion was made to unanimously support
SB 48.
1:25:57 PM
LUKE HOPKINS, Member, Fairbanks North Star Borough Assembly,
stated support for the current version of SB 48. He has been
asked why two road service commissioners or two fire service
commissioners can not meet to discuss an administrative action
on a contract that has been previously issued by the borough
without a public notice of a meeting. This is a problem with
respect to getting contract work done to open a culvert, plow
snow, or cut brush along a road. He is a member of the board of
the Alaska Municipal League, and this issue will be taken up at
the April meeting. He has spoken with other municipalities and
all agree that it is reasonable to make minor changes to this
law without undoing the Open Meetings Act.
The original law missed the mark since two assembly members can
sit down and talk about policy actions, but two members of a
non-policy making service area commission can't. It seems
reasonable to have both under the same standard, he said.
1:29:31 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN asked if he believes the bill appropriately
addresses the distinction between managerial functions and
policy making functions.
MR. HOPKINS said yes; "I think that these administrative duties
are on contracts already established, it's not to go out and
talk about creating a new contract or issuing a contract."
Furthermore, very few boards and commissions administer
contracts so the effect is narrow.
1:30:36 PM
TIM BECK, Fairbanks North Star Borough Assembly, said he is also
the chair of the Fairbanks Assembly Road Service Area Committee
- the entity that brought this legislation forward. He thanked
the sponsor. He related that the issue came up when two
commissioners stopped to look at an active construction project
and talk with the contractor. That action violated the Open
Meetings Act. This bill appears to be what is necessary to allow
commissioners to do their job as expected without breaking the
law, he said.
1:31:54 PM
RONALD ELLINGWORTH, Chair, Twenty-Three Mile Slough Road Service
Area, and member of the Borough District Service Commission,
said current law places commissioners in the position of
choosing to comply with the law, to ignore the law, or to find
ways to circumvent the law. This should not be acceptable and SB
48 addresses these concerns. Because AS 44.62.310 does not
exempt road service areas from the public meeting requirement,
these volunteer commissioners are unable to conduct routine
administrative or managerial duties without proper notification
and a subsequent public meeting. Currently the service area is
responsible for implementing a contract that was established by
the borough public works. This entails calling the contractor
out to do work that has been agreed to at an agreed rate.
However, two road service commissioners can not stop along the
road and discuss that contracted work. They can't send an email
to talk about plowing the road after a snow storm and they can't
discuss whether to call out the contractor to cut brush without
noticing a public meeting. Road service areas are a fact of life
in the Fairbanks region, but the current public meeting law
makes it difficult to impossible to conduct routine business
without breaking the law. Providing an exemption would solve
this problem.
MR. ELLINGWORTH said it's interesting that he can talk to the
borough public works department without violating the public
meeting law, but he can't have a similar discussion with his
fellow commissioners without giving public notice of a meeting,
waiting the appropriate length of time, and then having the
discussion at the public meeting. In response to an earlier
question by Senator Paskvan, he explained that decisions of the
road service area are fairly obvious to its members because the
snow has been plowed or the pot-hole is fixed. During the
quarterly meetings the individual commissioners give reports to
recap the actions they have taken and the costs they incurred.
If this exemption is granted all the road service area
commissioners could participate in the decision making process
before any action is taken, he said.
1:35:33 PM
SENATOR GENE THERRIAULT, Sponsor, SB 48, said he expects the
committee has heard from individuals who have examples of how
problematic this can be. Some of the scenarios are ridiculous
and that's what is being addressed. "Hopefully you'd agree that
we've addressed that without throwing things too wide open," he
said.
CHAIR KOOKESH asked if he's aware of any opposition to the bill.
SENATOR THERRIAULT said no, but there have been concerns
expressed about opening things too wide. However, once it's
understood that this is for the purpose of implementing policy
and not discussing or making policy, people are willing to allow
more latitude.
SENATOR MENARD asked if this will also help fire service areas.
SENATOR THERRIAULT said yes; it will also help other advisory
boards because they would no longer have more restrictive
meeting standards than policy making city councils or borough
assemblies.
SENATOR KOOKESH questioned why there had been no testimony from
Anchorage.
SENATOR THERRIAULT said he believes that the Municipality of
Anchorage (MOA) has road powers and community councils, but he
isn't sure about the structure.
SENATOR KOOKESH closed public testimony.
SENATOR MEYER related that Anchorage has limited road service
areas (Lrsa) and it's never been brought to his attention that
this change would be an issue.
CHAIR KOOKESH asked for a motion.
1:38:46 PM
SENATOR DAVIS moved to report CS for SB 48 from committee with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s). There
being no objection, CSSB 48(CRA) moved from the Senate
Transportation Standing Committee.
At ease at 1:39 pm.
SB 53-APPROP.: BRIDGES, SERVICE ROADS, TRAILS
1:40:21 PM
SENATOR KOOKESH announced the consideration of SB 53.
SENATOR GENE THERRIAULT, Sponsor of SB 53, said he initially
brought this legislation forward last year to bring attention to
bridge maintenance and repair needs statewide. Often legislators
center on the needs of their districts, which over the years has
resulted in a loss of focus on the fact that the state needs a
statewide transportation system. Bridge structures are one
component of the statewide highway system.
Acknowledging that he is under no delusion that a separate
appropriation bill is likely to pass the body, he said he is
making this appropriation request to highlight the need
statewide. Hopefully this will foster discussion and catch the
ear of finance committee members and perhaps they will steer
some state resources toward the bridge infrastructure needs
across the state.
SENATOR THERRIAULT explained that Section 1 asks for a $25
million general fund appropriation to the Department of
Transportation and Public Facilities for design, planning, and
construction or repairs on existing bridges on the state highway
system. Section 2 asks for a $10 million general fund
appropriation to the statutorily existing, local service roads
and trails (LSRT) program, which has not been funded in a number
of years. This section of law talks about DOTPF nominating small
road projects to a list and addressing them as LSRT funds are
available.
1:43:15 PM
SENATOR THERRIAULT related that local governments benefited from
this program because small projects that didn't qualify for
funding through the federal highway stream could be
accomplished. He has been involved in a number of such projects
and he would suggest that if money for big projects is tight,
perhaps some small projects could be accomplished if the LSRT
program were to be funded. He noted that last year DOTPF
testified that restarting the LSRT program would take time.
Since it was well supported in the 1980s he thought that while
he was asking for money, he would bring attention to the fact
that the law is still on the books.
SENATOR THERRIAULT said DOTPF has provided information on bridge
work that has been done and projects that might be targeted. The
packet includes pictures of bridge structures and some clearly
demonstrate deplorable states of disrepair. He initially brought
the legislation forward following the disastrous bridge collapse
in Minnesota. The travelling public takes it for granted that
the highways and bridges they travel on are adequately
maintained. That's not always the case and, unfortunately, some
structures in this state could be close to catastrophic failure.
Highlighting that fact and steering funds to chip away at that
problem is the right thing to do, he said.
1:46:29 PM
SENATOR MEYER said he doesn't have copies of the pictures.
SENATOR THERRIAULT apologized and offered to make copies
available.
SENATOR MEYER questioned the necessity of the bill since a lot
of the stimulus money is for this purpose.
SENATOR THERRIAULT suggested that Mr. Healy could speak to that.
ROGER HEALY, Chief Engineer, Division of Design & Engineering
Services, Department of Transportation and Public Facilities
(DOTPF), said this bill is not irrelevant. The department's
report explains that bridge projects take time and the timelines
of the stimulus do not fit well with the requirements and time
to build or replace a bridge. Coast Guard clearances, state
historical preservation clearances, and hydraulic analysis all
take time and those processes don't fit well with the stimulus.
1:49:41 PM
SENATOR MEYER questioned whether the appropriation is sufficient
to address all the bridge and road needs. He recalled DOTPF
stating it has a $10 million backlog.
MR. HEALY said this amount of money won't fix all the problems,
but it gives the department flexibility to immediately direct
resources where they are imminently needed. While most federal
money will be tied up in major projects, this money goes to
repair essential infrastructure. These projects aren't high
profile.
SENATOR MEYER questioned why the request isn't simply added to
the governor's capital budget.
SENATOR THERRIAULT again stated that he is under no delusion
that a separate appropriation bill will make it through the
committee process. Although the transportation committee doesn't
generally debate the need for bridges, he said he'd like that
debate to start here. Hopefully this will spark thought so that
when it comes time for the finance committee to amend the
governor's capital budget there will be a realization that
bridges need some focus. $25 million is an arbitrary number and
he realizes the statewide need is much larger. He explained that
he directed DOTPF to list the bridges that have the highest need
and he would note that a number of them fall on major
transportation routes.
1:53:52 PM
SENATOR DAVIS observed that when DOTPF gave this committee a
department overview several weeks ago they reported that they
were on track with respect to bridge inspections and repairs.
Because she understood that DOTPF wouldn't ask for additional
money, she questions the need for this appropriation.
MR. HEALY apologized that he wasn't at that meeting. He said he
believes that this kind of appropriation is needed because
bridge maintenance and repair needs are ever increasing. For
example, the Seward Highway bridges are limited to one lane of
traffic and a recent inspection of the Tyee Bridge in Skagway
showed that it too is in need of repair. It's a federal
requirement to inspect these structures every two years, but
accidents happen and things deteriorate in the meantime. This
would be a state funded program, which would allow a great deal
of flexibility that isn't available in a federal program. Given
the length of the list and the other needs mentioned, the total
repairs will be sizeable. "In any case, I would speak in favor
of this," he said.
1:57:27 PM
SENATOR PASKVAN expressed discomfort asking this one committee
to prioritize how DOTPF ought to spend $25 million. He asked if
this will result in different factions within the department
using this committee to get ahead of the game.
MR. HEALY said no; a road network is a vital part of the state's
economy and bridges are an essential link. Right now DOTPF is
struggling with the Seward Highway and commerce is affected.
When bridges are weight-limited truckers can't carry legal loads
and tour buses are impacted.
SENATOR PASKVAN said he understands the concept of needs, but
it's always as compared to what. This discussion is about the
needs of bridges and he's uncomfortable saying that this need is
more important than a need that he doesn't know about. DOTPF
should be presenting an assessment of their overall needs and
priorities, not just the bridge component. It's not that the
need isn't there; I know about bridge needs, he added.
2:01:08 PM
SENATOR THERRIAULT said Mr. Healy is here to express an opinion
on behalf of the commissioner and department; they see a need
and support the legislation. Passing the bill on to the finance
committee would be an expression of support that bridge
maintenance and repair is a statewide problem. That committee
will determine what, if any, level of funding to build into the
capital budget. Clearly, this bill will not make it to the
Senate floor, but this is an avenue for the transportation
committee to express support for bridge projects, he said. Keep
in mind that traffic can continue to flow if there is a frost
heave or a pot-hole in the road, but if a bridge collapses or is
downgraded it becomes a potential chokepoint on the highway
system.
SENATOR MEYER expressed the view that there is nothing wrong
with letting the finance committee know that bridges and roads
are important. That should be expected from the transportation
committee. However, if there are specific bridge projects that
are "must haves" for DOTPF, that should be in the governor's
capital budget. They should be out in the open and not through
the backdoor as a separate appropriation bill, he stated.
2:04:34 PM
SENATOR THERRIAULT clarified that DOTPF is here at his request.
"I'm the one who came up with the idea of how do we focus some
attention on the bridge network and they're just here supporting
my request," he said.
BRAD SCHWARTZ, Transportation Planning Manager, Mat-Su Borough,
stated support for SB 53. He said that DOTPF and local
governments often have difficulty finding adequate funding to
provide needed transportation infrastructure to keep pace with
growth. Oftentimes bridges are on the short end of the funding
spectrum until a serious problem arises. While this bill will
provide for a portion of these immediate needs, there is also
need for a long-term mechanism to provide stable funding for
both construction and maintenance. Residents and nonresidents
alike need to know that they are driving on a safe bridge and
highway system. This bill will bring that goal closer.
SENATOR KOOKESH closed public testimony. He stated support for
bridges, roads, and trails and asked the committee's indulgence
to allow this dialog to continue in the finance committee.
SENATOR MEYER expressed the view that bridges ought to be given
serious consideration as the capital budget is prepared, and
emphasized that if a particular bridge needs immediate repair
that specific project should be in the governor's capital
budget.
SENATOR MENARD described the bill as a call for attention and
said she is comfortable moving it along so the finance committee
can take a look.
SENATOR PASKVAN questioned whether the committee should keep the
arbitrary $25 million figure in the bill or send the message
with no dollar amount attached.
SENATOR KOOKESH commented that any number this committee picks
will be arbitrary so he would be comfortable sending the number
the sponsor selected.
2:10:16 PM
SENATOR THERRIAULT informed members that the bill he introduced
last year was forwarded to finance from the transportation
committee and perhaps it sparked attention because $20 million
was included in the capital bond package. That money is already
being put to good use on bridges that have become problematic.
Although some may think this bill is a waste of time, it does
advance the discussion, he stated.
SENATOR KOOKESH recalled the discussion last year centered on
the difference between using general fund money versus federal
funds for emergency repairs.
SENATOR MENARD cautioned against backdoor approaches.
SENATOR THERRIAULT highlighted the difference between
operational and capital expenditures and what elicits discussion
in the building. In general, discussions about capital
expenditures are left to the finance committee; there's never
been much input from the transportation committee, for example,
about problems associated with the transportation system.
SENATOR MENARD characterized DOTPF as an entity that gets a lot
of controls but that doesn't go through as many processes as
other departments.
SENATOR THERRIAULT suggested that DOTPF takes care of a larger
group of capital assets than any other state agency.
CHAIR KOOKESH asked the will of the committee.
2:14:33 PM
SENATOR MEYER moved to report [SB 53] from committee with
individual recommendations and attached fiscal note(s). There
being no objection, SB 53 moved from the Senate Transportation
Standing Committee.
2:15:12 PM
There being no further business to come before the committee,
Chair Kookesh adjourned the meeting at 2:15 PM.
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