Legislature(2001 - 2002)
04/16/2002 01:38 PM Senate TRA
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE
April 16, 2002
1:38 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator John Cowdery, Chair
Senator Jerry Ward, Vice Chair
Senator Gary Wilken
Senator Kim Elton
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Robin Taylor
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CS FOR SENATE BILL NO. 238(STA)
"An Act relating to state safety plans, programs, and procedures
and to systems, facilities, and infrastructure in the state;
exempting from public inspection as public records certain
records and information relating to state safety plans, programs,
and procedures; and providing for an effective date."
MOVED CSSB 238(STA) OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 397(STA)
"An Act exempting a person driving certain motor vehicles,
aircraft, or watercraft from driver licensing requirements; and
providing for an effective date."
HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SB 238 - See State Affairs minutes dated 1/24/02, 1/31/02 and
2/12/02.
HB 397 - No previous action to consider.
WITNESS REGISTER
Ms. Carol Carroll
Department of Military &
Veterans Affairs
PO Box 5800
Ft Richardson, AK 99505-0800
POSITION STATEMENT: Explained the provisions of SB 238.
Ms. Deborah Behr
Legislative and Regulations Section
Department of Law
POB 110300
Juneau AK 99811-0300
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions about SB 238.
Representative Vic Kohring
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 397.
Mr. Mike Krieber
Staff to Representative Kohring
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on HB 397.
Ms. Mary Marshburn, Director
Division of Motor Vehicles
Department of Administration
3300B Fairbanks St.
Anchorage AK 99503
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 397.
Ms. Marianne Beckham
SNOTRAC
3323 Wiley Post Loop
Anchorage AK 99517
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 397.
Mr. Robert Weber
POB 873244
Wasilla AK 99687
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed HB 397.
Mr. Lee Johnson
Fairbanks AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 397.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 02-17, SIDE A
Number 001
SB 238-PUBLIC RECORDS: STATE SECURITY & SAFETY
CHAIRMAN JOHN COWDERY called the Senate Transportation Committee
meeting to order at 1:38 p.m. and announced SB 238 to be up for
consideration. Senators Ward, Elton, Wilken and Cowdery were
present.
MS. CAROL CARROLL, Department of Military and Veterans, said that
Deborah Behr from the Department of Law would testify with her.
MS. CARROLL said that SB 238 addresses state security and safety
plans and procedures. She explained that Section 2 deals with
exceptions to Alaska's public records statute. Currently,
Alaska's public records statute is quite broad; most state
information is available to the public. Section 2 will allow
state agencies to withhold certain documents in certain
circumstances. Section 3 pertains to the Administrative
Procedures Act and allows plans to be adopted by Executive Order
instead of by regulation, which requires public comment.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked her to explain the changes made in the
Senate State Affairs committee substitute.
MS. CARROLL responded that the original bill had a section that
allowed the Department of Transportation and Public Facilities
(DOTPF) to have citation authority in international and rural
airports. [Ms. Carroll's next statement was indiscernible.]
Currently, the FAA can fine the states for security violations at
international airports. There is no easy way for the state to
pass that on to the actual violator so the State Affairs
Committee took that out of the bill. In addition, Section 3 was
tightened up. Section 3 used to apply to boards and commissions
but the Senate State Affairs Committee thought that was too
broad.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked her to explain the type of information
they are talking about.
MS. DEBORAH BEHR, Regulations Attorney, Department of Law, told
members that she is before the committee because she frequently
advises state agencies on the public records act. She stated that
Section 1 of the bill is designed to deal with a very narrow set
of state records that deal with security plans, programs,
procedures and detailed descriptions of state infrastructure. She
explained:
It allows those records, which arguably could be
disclosed to the public, to be exempted from public
disclosure. Just because something is a security plan,
it doesn't automatically mean that a state agency can
preclude its release into the public. We have to show
that the disclosure would interfere with its
implementation or that it would disclose confidential
guidelines or would cause a substantial risk to the
public to do so. The privilege in the bill is very
similar to what law enforcement privileges are to law
enforcement officers. The federal Freedom of
Information Act (FOIA) has a national defense exception
to it. We do not have a similar exemption in the state
statute. People who believe that a state agency has
unjustifiably withheld a record can ask for an
administrative appeal on the issue and then ultimately
go to court if they need to.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY asked her to give an example of the kind of
information that would be undesirable to be made public.
MS. BEHR replied that an example might be a security system for a
state building in which people wearing red badges on a certain
day of the week were considered law enforcement officers and were
not subject to the same level of search as the general public. In
that case, the badge color of the day would not be disclosed to
the general public.
There being no further discussion, SENATOR ELTON moved to pass
CSSB 238(STA) with the attached zero fiscal note from committee.
There were no objections and it was so ordered.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY announced a brief at-ease.
CSHB 397(STA)-EXEMPTIONS FROM DRIVER'S LICENSING
CHAIRMAN COWDERY announced HB 397 to be up for consideration.
REPRESENTATIVE VIC KOHRING told members the House Transportation
Committee sponsored HB 397, which exempted the requirement of a
driver's license for snow machines. The House State Affairs
Committee expanded that exemption to include off-road vehicles.
He explained that the current law defines snow machines as motor
vehicles, so they require a driver's license.
He said that last year the House Transportation Committee invited
DOTPF to present its winter transportation plan to the committee.
The report made reference to various laws governing snow machine
use, including the law requiring operators of a snow machine to
have a driver's license even on trails. DOTPF published a
brochure this last fall that spotlighted this issue and generated
a lot of publicity. As a result, the House Transportation
Committee filed this bill. He said that he received calls from
many parents who did not want to tell their children it is okay
to break the law by riding a snow machine; parents who depend on
their children to help them at fishnet sights; and Boy Scout
leaders who have to tell 14 and 15 year olds that have passed
safety courses they are too young to participate in these
activities. What he found more profound is that it would
adversely affect rural Alaskans, many of whom don't have access
to roads or to a DMV office to take a driver's license test and
who depend on snow machines, four-wheelers and boats as their
only means of transportation. He said the things a person studies
to take the driver's license test, such as using turn signals,
don't necessarily demonstrate competence or relevance to driving
a snow machine through the woods on a trail or driving a boat
across a lake.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING noted that this bill does not allow off
road vehicles to be used on roadways or highways. It deals
strictly with off road conditions. The House Transportation
Committee believes that safety is an important issue. Safety
training courses are available on a statewide basis through the
Trails and Recreation Access for Alaska (TRAAK) Board and
snowmobile associations. In addition, there is also parental
supervision.
He said the Division of Motor Vehicles and the Department of Law
support this legislation.
MR. MIKE KRIEBER, staff to Representative Kohring, added that Lee
Johnson is the TRAAK Board member who is the liaison to the
SNOTRAC Board, a TRAAK subcommittee that is focusing on snow
machine issues.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY noted he would be losing a quorum in five
minutes.
SENATOR WARD moved to pass CSHB 397(STA) from committee with
individual recommendations and its accompanying fiscal note.
SENATOR ELTON objected to ask if this bill would allow an
unlicensed person to drive a snowmobile on a state highway or
road or a municipal highway or road.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that it does not.
SENATOR WILKEN objected and said he has some serious concerns. He
asked that the committee take a brief recess and come back to the
bill as it is a transportation issue that this committee should
address.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY remarked that his children and grandchildren
started off on small "kid cats" riding on a trail with the
family. They would be banned from getting a license because of
their age. He asked Representative Kohring to comment.
MR. KRIEBER answered that one of the people who would be calling
in today is standing in front of a judge at 2:00 for arraignment
for receiving a ticket for allowing his child to operate a "kid
cat."
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING clarified that current law has been on the
books for about 25 years, which very few people knew about. It
requires a driver's license for off-road type vehicles or to
drive a car or a truck on a city street or highway roads. He
added:
We're just saying that we don't think it's an apples to
apples comparison - the issue of studying material and
taking a test to demonstrate competency of that
material is germane when it comes to driving a car and
a truck on a city street or highway and road - is
germane toward operating a snow machine out in the
woods or an ATV across a swamp or a boat across a lake.
He said because there is no direct comparison, this bill will
simply remove the off-road driver's license requirement to clean
up the issue.
1:59 p.m. to 2:24 p.m. - RECESS
SENATOR WILKEN said he understands the problem they are trying to
fix, but he finds the cure worse than the disease. He asked what
the difference is between a 14-year old driving a four-wheeler
down a rural trail and a 14-year old driving a pickup down a dirt
road.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING replied that there shouldn't be any
difference.
SENATOR WILKEN suggested that there probably isn't any difference
between a 14-year old on a four-wheeler on a rural trail and a
16-year old in a pickup driving down a dirt road. He expressed
concern that this bill says it's okay for a 14-year old to jump
on a snow machine that will go 110 miles an hour and drive
without a license. He thought someone needed to say that they
need training to do that. A driver's license in our society is a
right of passage and shows a level of maturity. He thought this
bill lifted that whole statement of personal responsibility off
of the shoulders of the 14-year old and the parents.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING responded that the state doesn't require
any training for someone to drive a snow machine or an outboard
across a lake right now.
SENATOR WILKEN said current law requires a 14-year old to have a
driver's license to run a snow machine. Without that law, that
requirement goes away. He asked Representative Kohring if he
considered limiting this bill by engine size or age without
lifting all responsibility so broadly.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING responded that operating a motorized
vehicle on any roadway system does require a driver's license and
the threshold age of 16 to do that. If they need to address the
safe operations of the off-highway type vehicles as opposed to a
car or a truck, they could craft legislation that would address
the issue of requiring standards for anyone to meet to operate
those different kinds of motorized vehicles. He thought that
would fall in the area of recommendations that the SNOTRAC Board
would come up with.
SENATOR WILKEN said he was concerned about the safety aspect of
this legislation.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said he thought they should have some limiting
language.
SENATOR WARD noted that his motion was still on the floor and the
reason he supports this legislation is that they are not talking
about legally licensed vehicles to be driven on roads or
secondary trails. He said the class of vehicles they are talking
about needs to be separate.
SENATOR ELTON noted that part of the issue is whether they are
substituting inappropriate training. He agrees with the sponsor
that taking a driving test is probably not appropriate training
to drive a snow machine across Big Lake at 80 mph, but he is not
entirely comfortable with removing the inappropriate thresholds
and substituting nothing.
MS. MARY MARSHBURN, Director, Division of Motor Vehicles (DMV),
thanked Representative Kohring and Senator Ward for their support
of this bill and said that DMV supports this bill, which will
remove a glitch in the law that requires a driver's license for
off-road vehicles and others that are not designed for road use.
SENATOR WILKEN asked Ms. Marshburn what problem this bill will
fix.
MS. MARSHBURN said it cleans up a glitch in the law.
SENATOR WILKEN asked if it is an administrative problem for DMV.
MS. MARSHBURN replied that it is and the greater issue is for
parents and families and for [the Department of Public Safety]
that really has no or limited enforcement ability.
SENATOR WILKEN asked her if she agrees that it's legal to operate
any vehicle crossing a public highway when going from one trail
to another.
MS. MARSHBURN replied that is addressed although she didn't have
the specific language.
SENATOR WILKEN asked if a 14-year old could operate a snow
machine without any prior training.
MS. MARSHBURN replied that they could unless the parents provide
some training.
SENATOR ELTON said he was assuming that under current law, if
Troopers stop someone for operating a snow machine while
intoxicated, points could be taken against their driving license.
MS. MARSHBURN replied that a DWI applies to operators of snow
machines as well as cars.
SENATOR ELTON asked if this bill passes, which says you don't
need a driver's license, whether DMV could take points away from
an adult holder of a driver's license who is caught operating a
snow machine while intoxicated.
MS. MARSHBURN said she believed so, but she would have to check
with the Department of Law.
SENATOR ELTON asked her to do that and get back to him.
MS. MARIANNE BECKHAM, Chairperson, Snow Trail Advisory Committee
(SNOTRAC) Committee, said they are a nine-member committee
representing snow-mobilers, the industry and its groups who
advises the Division of Parks and Recreation as well as
administers grants that come from the snowmobile registration
fees. She supports HB 397 because SNOTRAC is currently working on
training and safety guidelines to present to the legislature
governing the use of snowmobiles. They are acutely aware of the
need for further training and safety education on the use of
snowmobiles and support that 100 percent. Over 17 percent of
their grants on an annual basis are specifically for safety and
education programs - including safe speeds, how to read the
terrain, which safety gear should be worn and operation of
equipment. SNOTRAC believes a person needs training to operate a
snowmobile no matter what age, but they believe requiring a
driver's license is counterproductive. There are many villages
throughout the state that require some mode of transportation to
schools or churches, etc. other than roads and highways. If they
are required to have a driver's license, the state should be
ready to substitute some method for them to get to school and to
church, etc. She would much rather train them to use the vehicles
appropriately and added that training would also extend into
their adult life. They do not condone the illegal use of
motorized vehicles on public roadways, but if she is operating
her four-horse Johnson outboard down a river, she didn't know if
the safety training that goes with driver's licenses is an
applicable skill. "Safety education is the critical key," she
said, and they want the opportunity to make recommendations to
the legislature.
She noted that SNOTRAC is an independent organization and its
opinions are not necessarily that of the Department of Natural
Resources or the Division of Parks and Recreation.
SENATOR WILKEN asked when the curriculum for their training
program would be complete.
MS. BECKHAM replied they would meet on Friday to have their first
discussion on the scope of the regulations. They meet quarterly
and they would be ready for the next legislative session.
SENATOR WILKEN asked if she would support a cubic centimeter (cc)
limit on the vehicle, some sort of age limit and some sort of
location-specific criteria.
MS. BECKHAM replied that she wasn't sure about the cc limit and
would have to read the language. Another possibility is to base
it on horsepower. She said possibly they could word it "outside
of public roadways." She also commented that having a driver's
license doesn't necessarily mean that you are mature and added
that what's important is the training that you get.
TAPE 02-17, SIDE B
MS. BECKHAM said she would have to look carefully at what age
would truly be appropriate.
SENATOR WILKEN asked her what problem this bill, as is, would
solve today.
MS. BECKHAM replied that it would prevent well-intentioned
parents who have purchased very small machines for their
youngsters to ride and enjoy from engaging in criminal activity.
SENATOR WILKEN said he doesn't have a problem with the Kiddi Cats
nor the four-horsepowers on the Deshkakat River. His problem is
the state saying it's all right for 14-year olds to go 100 mph on
a snow machine without any sort of training. He suggests that a
driver's license is the beginning of that training and he
applauded their efforts to bring about more training. He thought
that effort could be made into some legislation.
MS. BECKHAM thanked him and said they would keep people
appraised.
SENATOR WARD said he agreed with her comments. He has six
grandchildren; five of them are 7 to 9 and two are 11 years old.
Last weekend all five of them took turns taking their snow
machine to work the trap line on the Kashwitna River. He said
they could not put enough laws or regulations in place to keep
some people from going 110 mph. They can't legislate common
sense. His five grandkids work a trap line and enjoy doing it
even though two of them had been hurt on snow machines. They
learn from it and that's part of life.
MR. ROBERT WEBER said he was representing himself and any other
people who had been driving on highways that had near misses with
snow machines and ATVs. He doesn't have a problem with people
taking their family out to do whatever they want to do on private
property, but his problem is when a snow machine crosses a
roadway in front of a legal vehicle driving down the road or when
one drives over a culvert without guard rails and hits a
pedestrian. According to the State Troopers, the snow machine
driver didn't violate the law. That has happened twice there. He
said the Board is wrong and that:
This bill will allow unlicensed drivers on the
roadways, because under state statute, there are many
conditions in which you can legally drive a snow
machine on the roadway. By taking away the driver's
license requirement, you can have 15 DWIs and you could
still get down to the Park. You can get home legally.
He said another issue is what will happen to the federal highway
funds when the federal government finds out the State of Alaska
is allowing unlicensed drivers on the roadway system. He stated,
"I've got serious problems with snow machines and ATVs on the
roadway. I don't drive my car down trails and I don't think they
should be on roadways."
He said he could count 50 to 500 violations of the law in his
neighborhood any weekend of the year. He said the snow mobile
drivers deliberately try to see how much snow they can pile in
his driveway. He said he made a left-hand turn into his driveway
once and almost hit a snow machine that was passing him on the
left from behind in the roadway.
SENATOR WARD asked if he could name a specific law that says it's
legal for a snow machine or ATV to be on the road and asked if he
could give him the name of the Trooper who said it was a law.
MR. WEBER said he could cite the statute, 13 AAC 2.403 - Riding
Snow Machines and Other Off-Road Highway Vehicles and 13 AAC
2.455 - Operation on Highways and Other Locations. He added, "It
is legal under state statute to ride snow machines on the roadway
under certain conditions."
SENATOR WARD asked what the conditions were.
MR. WEBER replied:
You can ride across the street, you can ride across a
four-lane highway, you can traverse it, but you can't
ride down the center of the median, but you can ride
across it. If there's a bridge, like the Susitna River
Bridge on the Parks Highway, you can have your four-
year old kid on his Kiddi Cat riding down a lane of
traffic to cross the river.
SENATOR WARD said he was describing the ability to cross the road
or to cross a river, but he wasn't talking about riding on a
roadway.
MR. WEBER replied that they are crossing on a roadway. He said
the Alaska State Troopers told him that operators can drive down
a roadway with guardrails and someone did that in Susitna,
killing a pedestrian.
SENATOR WARD said that Trooper was mistaken.
MR. WEBER said he was also told by the Palmer State Troopers that
it was their opinion that it is legal to ride a snow machine
without a driver's license currently.
SENATOR WARD said it is legal, but not on a roadway.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said the Trooper was wrong and he was probably
trying to say that you can do that if you're crossing a road or
river.
MR. WEBER clarified that the Trooper told him it was legal for a
four-year old driving down the road in front of his house,
crossing his roadway because he was not required to have a
license.
SENATOR WARD responded that there is an exemption to cross a road
or a river.
MR. WEBER said he was told it was legal to drive a machine
without a valid operator's license.
SENATOR WARD said that was correct. This bill attempts to repeal
the driver's license requirement, but the people who are driving
on the road in front of his house would still be breaking the law
with or without the license.
MR. KRIEBER said current law requires a driver's license to
operate a motor vehicle - period. This bill attempts to remove
that requirement for crossing the road, a river or a lake. It
does not allow someone to drive down a road. He said the
Department of Law is aware of the accidents and has decided that
the driver's license issue was minor compared to the other
issues.
MR. LEE JOHNSON, Fairbanks Trails and Recreational Access for
Alaska Board member, said he is liaison to the SNOTRAC Board and
that they had not taken a position on this bill, but he supported
dropping the license requirement. He thought it was the wrong
tool to address a lot of people's concerns with training and
education, adding that it would be good to have a program in
place to replace the licensing requirement and that people are
working on it.
He said using horsepower language is an uncertain remedy, because
the new generation of snow mobiles is being developed as four-
strokes. They are a lot higher displacement, but not necessarily
high-powered. Some of the lowest power machines have the highest
displacement. No amount of regulations will address irresponsible
people who are inclined to ignore common sense and public safety.
He added that a snow machine that goes 100 mph is about as common
as the 80 lb. king salmon and the speed of machines might be
exaggerated. There are few machines that go that fast and a small
segment of the population that would do it and he would support
efforts to "reel in" that segment of the population.
SENATOR WILKEN asked Ms. Marshburn if there was any minimum age
to take the driver's license test.
MS. MARSHBURN replied 14 years old.
SENATOR WILKEN said he understood they couldn't get a permit
until they were 14 years old, but he wanted to know if someone
could take the test at 13.
MS. MARSHBURN said she would have to look at the language, but
she didn't think so, because there are other requirements that
have to be met before the department will test an individual.
In reference to Senator Elton's question, she said a DWI is still
applicable to a snow machine operator whether he has a driver's
license or not.
SENATOR ELTON thanked her for the follow-up and noted if there is
no license for a snow machine operator, that takes away one of
the remedies for someone who abuses the privilege of driving a
snow machine. The license cannot be revoked as punishment and you
cannot prevent that person from using the machine. He asked if
that was correct.
MS. MARSHBURN responded that the same thing would apply to a boat
or an airplane. They can be cited and penalized for DWI, but
there is no license requirement in this law for those.
SENATOR WARD moved to remove his motion to move the bill out of
committee and asked for unanimous consent. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
SENATOR WILKEN asked why, on the page entitled, "Applicable Legal
Definitions," number 25 is there.
REPRESENTIVE KOHRING replied that they had a different version of
this bill in the House Transportation Committee that referred to
a different section of the law that removes the driver's license
requirement. It accomplishes the same goal of removing the
driver's license requirement, but they did it in a different way.
The vehicular waiver area was in that earlier Transportation
version and doesn't apply to this one.
SENATOR ELTON said he wanted the sponsor to know that he wasn't
necessarily opposed to this bill, recognizing the implications of
maintaining the requirement that everyone needs a driver's
license. He was not prepared to make up his mind today. He wanted
to talk to the Troopers and the Department of Law to see what
kinds of discretions they are exercising now.
REPRESENTATIVE KOHRING said he had a gentleman to testify, but he
is standing before a judge on arraignment right now on this exact
issue.
SENATOR ELTON said he was more interested in hearing from the
Troopers and the Department of Law and how this affects the
recreational as well as the lifestyle users of these machines
than from someone who has been charged.
SENATOR WILKEN said if they are writing tickets for people who
are safely operating Kiddi Cat snow machines, there is something
wrong.
SENATOR WARD said that's what's happening.
CHAIRMAN COWDERY said he intended to bring this bill back and
asked the sponsor to work with Senator Wilken on his concerns.
SENATOR ELTON asked the SNOTRAC people, if they develop any
suggestions at their Friday meeting, to get them to the
committee.
COWDERY said he thought something needs to be done on this issue
and hoped they would work together and adjourned the meeting at
3:20 p.m.
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