Legislature(1999 - 2000)
02/25/1999 01:30 PM Senate TRA
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
JOINT SENATE & HOUSE TRANSPORTATION COMMITTEE MEETING
February 25, 1999
1:30 p.m.
SENATE MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Jerry Ward, Chairman
Senator Drue Pearce, Vice Chair
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Beverly Masek, Chair
Representative Bill Hudson
Representative Jerry Sanders
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Rick Halford
Senator Mike Miller
Representative Andrew Halcro, Vice Chair
Representative John Cowdery
Representative Allen Kemplen
Representative Albert Kookesh
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Senator Robin Taylor
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Overview and Discussion by Mr. Brian D'Isernia, President of
Eastern Shipbuilding Group; Mr. Jack Gilbert, Naval Architect,
Boston; and Mr. Bruce Gilbert, Haines.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 99-4, SIDE A
CO-CHAIR WARD called the Joint Senate and House Transportation
Committee meeting to order at 1:37 p.m. Present were Co-Chair
Masek, Senator Pearce, Representative Sanders, and Co-Chair Ward.
CO-CHAIR WARD announced the presence of Senator Robin Taylor.
BRIAN D'ISERNIA, President of Eastern Shipbuilding Group (ESG),
Inc., introduced John Gilbert, a naval architect with John Gilbert
& Associates in Boston, who would be assisting Mr. D'Isernia in his
presentation. MR. D'ISERNIA provided the following background
information about ESG and information on the types of ships it
manufactures. ESG is a medium-sized aluminum and steel construction
shipyard located in Panama City, Florida, with about 400 employees.
Since 1976, ESG has delivered about 200 vessels; approximately 18
were ferries, ranging from 60 to 300 feet in length, and ranging
from high-speed aluminum gas-turbine powered craft, to diesel
powered craft. In 1997, ESG delivered a 200' ferry, named the
"Block Island," to a customer in New London, Connecticut. The
"Block Island" was a third generation ferry, each generation having
improved upon its predecessor. ESG was contacted by Senator Taylor
and various mayors of Southeast Alaska communities who were
interested in this particular ferry as a type that could meet the
needs of Southeast's inter-island transportation system.
MR. D'ISERNIA described the "Block Island" as 208' in length, 40'
in width, and 14' in depth. It is United States Coast Guard (USCG)
certified for lakes, bays, and sounds, which is the required
certification for inter-island transportation in Southeast Alaska.
It is USCG certified to carry 1000 passengers, and approximately 45
vehicles, and it is capable of carrying three extended-length
tractor trailers in place of 20 cars or trucks. Maximum speed on
sea trials was 18.2 knots, and its normal operating speed is 17
knots. The "Block Island" route is from Pt. Judith, Rhode Island,
to Block Island, Rhode Island, a 13-mile run in an exposed area of
the North Atlantic with 15-foot seas in the winter. This boat was
designed as a winter boat; it contains a lower deck house to
minimize windage for better control in small harbors. The two
turbo-charged engines have a total horsepower of 4,000 and they
meet California emission standards which are quite strict. The
ship has a 250 horsepower bowthruster, and the rudder design allows
the vessel to turn within its own length. He noted the ship was
designed by John Gilbert, with input from the Block Island
operators. Crew requirements were minimized by the ship's tonnage
design, to save the operator money. Its fuel consumption is a
relatively modest 140 gallons per hour, its minimum draft is 9+
feet, and the vessel was built with camber and sheer to allow
water to run off the deck. He emphasized that this vessel has been
designed, built, and tested, thereby eliminating the risk of
dealing with variables inherent in a new design.
Number 254
CHAIRMAN WARD asked if all 1000 passengers could sit inside of the
ship.
MR. D'ISERNIA said it is a combination of inside and outside. The
inside seating capacity is approximately 350; the total USCG
carrying approved capacity is 1000. He added excess passenger
capacity in Southeast occurs during the summer months when people
are more amendable to sitting outside.
CHAIRMAN WARD announced the presence of Senator Lincoln and
Representative Hudson.
MR. D'ISERNIA gave a slide presentation that included photos of the
"Block Island" and ESG's shipyard. He noted that he and Mr.
Gilbert will be visiting several port facilities in Southeast.
Number 329
SENATOR TAYLOR asked what distance the vessel requires to turn in.
MR. GILBERT replied it turns in about 1-1/10 lengths. He explained
the rudder design is similar to an air foil design.
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked if ESG manufactures the wheels on the
shafts. MR. D'ISERNIA replied it does not, but the propellers are
shipped to its machine shop for a certified fit.
Number 447
SENATOR LINCOLN asked where the propellers are manufactured. MR.
D'ISERNIA answered the shafts and propellers are manufactured in
the United States by [indis.] Johnson, but the rudders are made in
Germany.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked if parts are easily attainable for the
rudders. MR. D'ISERNIA replied it is advisable to keep two spare
propellers and one spare rudder in stock to minimize downtime.
SENATOR TAYLOR pointed out the Kennecott needed a part replaced on
one of its two engines. The part arrived 10 days later from Europe
and was replaced, except shortly thereafter, the same part on the
other engine broke.
MR. D'ISERNIA clarified that he was not advising that a spare
rudder be available solely because it is manufactured in Germany,
but also because replacing a rudder is a time-consuming job,
requiring the vessel to be pulled out of the water.
Number 490
JOHN GILBERT stated that, because rudders are always vulnerable to
damage, his company always sets up with the original manufacturer
a spare parts machine shop which would probably be located in
Ketchikan. The machine pattern would be in that shop so that a new
one could be built, if necessary. He noted he tries to keep parts
made by foreign manufacturers to a minimum but has found these
rudders to be quite durable.
CHAIRMAN WARD asked if enclosing some of the passenger areas with
plastic would affect the stability of the vessel.
MR. D'ISERNIA replied it would not affect the stability, but might
upset the wind heel calculations.
CHAIRMAN WARD asked if 350 passengers would sit on the passenger
deck, and 650 would sit on the top deck. MR. D'ISERNIA replied the
vessel is certified, safe, and stable to carry 1000 passengers in
the worst stability criteria mode, which would be on the top deck;
therefore the vessel can hold that many. He repeated it can only
seat 350 indoors.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked what the width of the vessel is in the bow.
MR. D'ISERNIA answered the vessel width is 40 feet; however, the
width at the spot Senator Lincoln referred to is about 25 feet.
SENATOR LINCOLN expressed concern that the 40-foot width would not
accommodate the vehicular traffic in Alaska, such as motor homes
and vans.
SENATOR TAYLOR responded the busiest ferry in the state, which
hauls more cars, passengers, and vans than any other, is 85 feet
long and operates out of Ketchikan.
TAPE 99-04, SIDE B
SENATOR TAYLOR also noted the longest run contemplated for
Southeast is three hours, and most runs would take 1+ hours. He
asked what the useful life of the engines is. MR. D'ISERNIA
replied about 35,000 hours, stating that the engines can be rebuilt
many times.
MR. D'ISERNIA stated the price of the vessel, as configured, cost
less that $10 million. Delivery time is about 10 months, with
succeeding vessels at two-month intervals. He repeated this
vessel has a proven record, and he extended an invitation to
legislators to ride the vessel.
Number 500
JOHN GILBERT added the vessel was designed to meet USCG
requirements for lakes, bays and sounds, however it is also capable
of being designed for "ocean service" with a reduction of top-deck
passengers. The American Disabilities Act requirements were
partially met; the vessel contains a wheelchair lift and handicap
accessible bathrooms. He described the water, fuel, and sewage
tank capacities, and other mechanical features that meet USCG
regulations. The original design was constrained by the State of
Rhode Island's dock maximum width requirement of 40 feet, and a 9+
foot depth.
CHAIRMAN WARD asked if the "Block Island" regularly encounters
swells of up to 15 feet.
MR. GILBERT replied it can actually encounter breaking waves of 15
feet. The area often has short, steep, heavy seas.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked about maintenance costs.
MR. GILBERT said the standard package, which includes full-kit
replacements for liner, piston, valve cages, etc., is $3500 per
cylinder. The only other problem that occurs on occasion is a
teething problem with the turbo chargers.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked what the most common maintenance problem is on
this ship. MR. GILBERT said these particular engines use quite a
bit of lubricating oil, but this engine is the most user-friendly
for licensed engineers.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked for a comparison of the Rhode Island area
weather and Southeast Alaska. MR. GILBERT replied the Rhode Island
area can experience about two weeks of -9 degrees and 40 to 50 mile
per hour winds.
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked if the "Block Island" travels in open,
unprotected waters. MR. GILBERT said it does, but that some of
Southeast's passages are open. SENATOR TAYLOR added that a few of
Southeast's passages are exposed, but Southeast Alaska does not
experience as many days of severe cold as the Northeast does
because of its maritime climate.
SENATOR TAYLOR calculated a major rebuild at 35,000 hours would
take place at 11+ years if the vessel operated nine hours per day,
365 days per year.
CO-CHAIR WARD asked if the sleeves need to be replaced every four
years. MR. GILBERT replied they need to be replaced on these
engines about every four to five years, but on fishing boats they
run for 8,000 hours each year.
Number 391
SENATOR LINCOLN asked about the fuel consumption. MR. GILBERT
replied when the vessel is running at 17 plus knots, and turns at
850 rpm, it burns 140 gallons per hour.
SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr. D'Isernia if he would be willing to hire
Alaskans to assist in building an Alaska ferry. MR. D'ISERNIA said
2+ years ago ESG employed about 120 people; that number is 400
today. ESG has been looking for people to hire and would not be
adverse to hiring qualified Alaskans. SENATOR LINCOLN asked Mr.
D'Isernia if he would be willing to include such a provision in a
contract. MR. D'ISERNIA said he would, and in addition, he has
been exploring with a local shipyard owner the possibility of
forming a partnership which would be advantageous for routine
maintenance.
Number 350
SENATOR TAYLOR confirmed that discussions have taken place with the
owners of the Ketchikan shipyard, and that a shipyard is also
located in Seward. He added that he has spoken to seven different
companies about building a ferry, and that although the Ketchikan
shipyard is limited in its manufacturing capacities, many
possibilities for partnerships exist.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she brought the topic up because Alaskans
welded the oil pipeline, and it looks as though a lot of welding
will need to be done on a steel ferry.
Number 329
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON indicated he would like Alaska's ship people
to review any plans and suggest modifications. He said he would
like to speak to the operators of the "Block Island" about how the
ship functions. JOHN GILBERT said his firm has designed over 100
ferries for various areas of the United States, including Maine,
the Great Lakes, Lake Champlain, Martha's Vineyard, all with
differing requirements.
Number 302
CO-CHAIR WARD introduced Bruce Gilbert from Haines, Alaska.
BRUCE GILBERT, owner of a catamaran ferry, The Silver Eagle,
informed committee members he had with him literature from the 15th
International Fast Ferry Conference in Boston. He then referred to
a two-page outline he provided to committee members, and made the
following comments. In 1994, the phrase "fast ferry" was
considered a dirty word; however, in 1995 people began to see the
advantages. Fast ferries are vessels that travel at 25 knots or
more. As a Haines resident for 34 years, he became engrossed with
the problems with the Alaska ferries and decided that Haines needed
a private, high speed ferry to Juneau. Determining the feasibility
of a ferry route requires the consideration of three factors: the
geography of the area; demographics; and economics. Southeast's
geographical make-up and distance from Seattle is conducive to a
good ferry route; its demographics are not. He stated he would
like to see the Legislature establish a fact-finding committee of
four to six people to study the feasibility of the use of fast
ferries in Southeast. He suggested the fact-finding committee
consist of a pilot, a former director of the Alaska Marine Highway,
a former terminal manager, a shipyard owner-operator, and a naval
architect. He emphasized the need to remove the politics of
management of the Alaska Marine Highway System, to remove the
union's ability to veto management's decisions, and to look at the
use of fast ferries to provide the level of service that passengers
want by establishing an advisory board of panhandlers to improve
Southeast's ferry service. He stated, "With the impending budget
crisis due to low oil prices where we have to either tap our
permanent reserves or pay state income taxes, we must improve our
ferry system. I believe we should do it soon and along the
direction of fast ferries." He recounted the financial problems he
had in trying to start a fast ferry business in Southeast.
Number 167
SENATOR TAYLOR asked Mr. Gilbert why he lands his ferry in Echo
Cove rather than Auke Bay. MR. GILBERT said for reasons of cost,
as the increased distance is 25 miles. SENATOR TAYLOR noted the
Alaska ferries travel an extra 50 miles on a round trip to Skagway
because the Marine Highway will not locate a terminal at Echo Cove.
He asked Mr. Gilbert how long he has operated from Echo Cove. MR.
GILBERT said since 1995, and he added the state ferries on that
route average 6+ miles per hour, which includes port time.
CO-CHAIR WARD thanked Mr. Gilbert for providing committee members
with literature from the International Fast Ferry Conference. He
asked Mr. Gilbert to meet with Senator Taylor's staff about the
fact-finding committee.
CO-CHAIR MASEK also thanked participants for attending and
providing the committee with information.
SENATOR TAYLOR noted that Representative Hudson asked him to relay
to committee members that the State could have purchased and had
delivered ten of the 200-foot ferries for the same price it paid
for the Kennecott. Had four or five of the smaller ferries been
purchased, SENATOR TAYLOR asserted that interconnecting roads and
terminals also could have been constructed.
TAPE 99-5, SIDE A
CO-CHAIR MASEK asked Mr. Tom Brigham and Mr. Bob Dahl if they would
like to make any comments.
BOB DAHL, General Manager of the Alaska Marine Highway, said he was
delighted to speak with Mr. D'Isernia and Mr. Gilbert because their
proposal dovetails well with the Southeast Plan. He noted when the
Alaska Marine Highway System was first designed 35 years ago, it
was to be a long haul system to carry passengers from Bellingham or
Prince Rupert to Skagway. That system has advantages and
disadvantages that remain to this day. One feature of the
Southeast Plan is to adopt a point to point service for which a
"Block Island" type ferry would be ideally suited. He repeated he
was interested to hear the presentations before the committee
today.
Number 058
SENATOR TAYLOR showed a map of Southeast Alaska and the proposed
ferry routes that would connect to logging roads within the Tongass
National Forest. He discussed the new possibilities that could
result from an interconnected system of smaller and faster ferries.
CO-CHAIR WARD thanked all participants. He asked Mr. Brigham and
Senator Taylor's staff to work with Bruce Gilbert regarding a fact-
finding group. He adjourned the meeting at 3:20 p.m.
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