Legislature(1993 - 1994)

04/25/1994 09:12 AM STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE                                 
                         April 25, 1994                                        
                           9:12 a.m.                                           
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
 Senator Loren Leman, Chair                                                    
 Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair                                               
 Senator Robin Taylor                                                          
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
 Senator Jim Duncan                                                            
 Senator Johnny Ellis                                                          
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
 CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 153(JUD) am                                             
 "An Act related to the awarding of special good time deductions for           
 prisoners participating in the Point MacKenzie Rehabilitation                 
 Project; and providing for an effective date."                                
                                                                               
 CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 47(FIN)                                                 
 "An Act relating to primary elections and to the delivery of the              
 primary ballots to persons making application for them when, by               
 operation of political party rule, two or more primary ballots must           
 be provided to the public; preventing a voter from changing the               
 voter's party affiliation within 30 days of a primary election when           
 two or more primary ballots must be provided to the public; and               
 annulling a related regulation; and providing for an effective                
 date."                                                                        
                                                                               
 HOUSE BILL NO. 400                                                            
 "An Act relating to administrative proceedings involving a                    
 determination of eligibility for a permanent fund dividend or                 
 authority to claim a dividend on behalf of another."                          
                                                                               
 CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 351(FIN) am(efd add)                                    
 "An Act relating to permits for the carrying of a concealed                   
 handgun; providing for local option elections in municipalities and           
 established villages to prohibit the possession of a concealed                
 handgun under a permit; and relating to the possession of weapons;            
 and providing for an effective date."                                         
                                                                               
  PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION                                             
                                                                               
 HB 153 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
                                                                               
 HB 47 - No previous senate committee action.                                  
                                                                               
 HB 400 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
                                                                               
 HB 351 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
 Melva Krogseng, Aide                                                          
 Representative Barnes                                                         
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3438                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  author of cs for HB 153                                 
                                                                               
 Tom Anderson, Aide                                                            
 Representative Martin                                                         
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3783                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  prime sponsor of HB 47                                  
                                                                               
 Joseph L. Swanson, Director                                                   
 Division of Elections                                                         
 P.O. Box 110017, Juneau, AK 99811-0017¶465-4611                               
  POSITION STATEMENT:  testified on HB 47                                      
                                                                               
 Melinda Gruening, Aide                                                        
 Representative Green                                                          
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4931                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  prime sponsor of HB 400                                 
                                                                               
 Thomas C. Williams, Director                                                  
 Permanent Fund Dividend Corporation                                           
 Department of Revenue                                                         
 P.O. Box 110460, Juneau, AK 99811-0460¶465-2323                               
  POSITION STATEMENT:  testified on HB 400                                     
                                                                               
 Representative Green                                                          
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4931                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  prime sponsor of HB 400                                 
                                                                               
 Barbara C. Cotting, Aide                                                      
 Representative James                                                          
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3743                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  prime sponsor of HB 351                                 
                                                                               
 Portia C.K. Babcock, Aide                                                     
 Senate State Affairs Committee                                                
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-2095                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  testified on HB 351                                     
                                                                               
 C.E. Swackhammer, Deputy Commissioner                                         
 Department of Public Safety                                                   
 P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811-1200¶465-4322                               
  POSITION STATEMENT:  testified on HB 351                                     
                                                                               
                                                                               
 ACTION NARRATIVE                                                              
                                                                               
 TAPE 94-30 & 94-31                                                            
                                                                               
 TAPE 94-30, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 001                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at           
 9:12 a.m.                                                                     
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 153 (GOOD TIME: PT. MACKENZIE REHAB               
 PROJECT) as the first order of business before the Senate State               
 Affairs Committee and calls Ms. Krogseng to testify.                          
                                                                               
 Number 011                                                                    
                                                                               
 MEL KROGSENG, Aide to Representative Barnes, author of the                    
 committee substitute for HB 153, reads a sponsor statement for HB
 153.                                                                          
                                                                               
 Number 065                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG states there are currently 72 inmates at Point                   
 MacKenzie, and there is a current capacity for just under 100                 
 inmates.  It is felt that the project could easily house 160                  
 inmates.  However, the project does need some type of incentive.              
 There are 245 adult reindeer, and as of this weekend, 18 baby                 
 reindeer.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 083                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Krogseng to clarify whether the project is            
 having trouble getting people to volunteer.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 094                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG responds that not all volunteers are suitable                    
 candidates.  She believes this project can ease some of the                   
 crowding in the institutions.  Ms. Krogseng discusses statistics              
 relating to the number of persons currently in state custody.                 
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG lists some of the other benefits to inmates serving at           
 Point Mackenzie, which include accredited GED programs and                    
 firefighter programs.                                                         
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG states the inmates are also doing a great deal to                
 preserve an asset of the state.                                               
                                                                               
 Number 143                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Krogseng how many prisoners in the system             
 are eligible to go to Project Hope, but are not volunteering.                 
 Number 145                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG states she does not know exactly.  One of the                    
 requirements is that inmates have two years left on their sentence.           
 Committee members should have an inmate profile report.  In that              
 report, there are 541 minimum custody inmates, and 110 community              
 custody inmates in institutions.  Those inmates would meet the                
 custody level requirements.  How many of those would meet the two    wo   
 year service requirement, she does not know.                                  
                                                                               
 Number 162                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Krogseng if she can have that answer for              
 the senate by the time HB 153 reaches the floor.                              
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG replies she would think so.                                      
                                                                               
 Number 178                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if the GED program has been in operation long             
 enough to gauge the success rate of the program.                              
                                                                               
 MS. KROGSENG responds it hasn't been in operation very long, but              
 there is optimism that the program will be successful.                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks the pleasure of the committee.                            
                                                                               
 Number 195                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to discharge HB 153 from the Senate             
 State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                      
                                                                               
 Number 197                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders HB 153 released from             
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 Number 199                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 47 (ABSENTEE BALLOTS - PRIMARY                    
 ELECTIONS) as the next order of business before the Senate State              
 Affairs Committee.  The chairman calls Mr. Anderson to testify.               
                                                                               
 Number 201                                                                    
                                                                               
 TOM ANDERSON, Aide to Representative Martin, prime sponsor of                 
 HB 47, introduces the bill and says the purpose of HB 47 is to                
 insure that absentee ballot applicants for primary elections                  
 receive the proper ballot.  Mr. Anderson states that HB 47 would              
 ensure that if an applicant for an absentee ballot fails to mark              
 which ballot they would like to receive, the Division of Elections            
 would send them the ballot of their party affiliation.                        
 MR. ANDERSON states HB 47 would also prevent a voter from changing            
 their party registration 30 days prior to the primary.  The                   
 Division of Elections believes this will allow for a smoother                 
 election.                                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. ANDERSON states HB 47 has a zero fiscal note, and will not have           
 any substantial financial impact.  Mr. Anderson announces that Mr.            
 Swanson, Director of the Division of Elections is available to                
 answer questions.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 246                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks how many people, in the 1992 election cycle,              
 changed their party affiliation at the polls or within 30 days of             
 the election.                                                                 
                                                                               
 Number 252                                                                    
                                                                               
 JOE SWANSON, Director, Division of Elections, responds the division           
 does not have an answer to the chairman's question.  However, it              
 was more than a couple hundred people and less than a couple                  
 thousand people.  He will try to pin a number down for the                    
 committee, but those are not records that the division keeps.                 
                                                                               
 Number 262                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN surmises that persons changing their party                     
 affiliation so close to an election would probably be people who              
 were registered as democrats or AIP switching to a non-partisan               
 affiliation.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 270                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWANSON responds the way the state republican party rules are             
 written and the current regulations of the Division of Elections,             
 a person who is registered republican can vote any ballot; a person           
 who is registered democrat or green party you are restricted to               
 vote the republican ballot.  Anyone registered non-partisan or                
 independent may vote both ballots.  (People registered nonpartisan            
 or independent may choose either the open ballot or the republican   can  
 ballot.)                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN comments he thinks Mr. Swanson misspoke, and meant             
 to say that democrats, greens, and AIP were restricted to the open         
 ballot.                                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. SWANSON states the chairman is correct.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 282                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER states he would support the first portion of the               
 bill, but he does not support the portion restricting people's                
 ability to change their party affiliation.  Senator Miller stresses           
 again that he has a big problem with that portion of the bill, and            
 says it would be enough to make him vote against the bill if it               
 gets to the floor of the senate.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 293                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWANSON responds not allowing people to change their party                
 affiliation within 30 days before  an election was put in HB 47 at            
 the request of the Division of Elections.  Persons registering to             
 vote for the first time must register 30 days before the election.            
 A person is also not allowed to change their district registration            
 within 30 days before an election.  Mr. Swanson states it is his              
 understanding that people changing their party affiliation at the             
 last minute in the 1992 primary election caused a lot of problems             
 and confusion.  The Division of Elections is simply asking that the           
 same time frame be applied to changing party affiliation as is                
 applied to all other changes made in the voter registration                   
 process.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 312                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER states he has a philosophical disagreement with Mr.            
 Swanson, and Senator Miller does not like persons not being allowed           
 to change party affiliation up until the moment they cast their               
 vote.  Senator Miller thinks that since there are not great numbers           
 of people changing their affiliation, it shouldn't be that much of            
 a problem.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 319                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swanson if the Division of Elections                  
 intends to publish and advertise this change disallowing people to            
 change their party affiliation within 30 days before an election.             
 The chairman asks Mr. Swanson if the division intends to have                 
 registrars available in public places prior to 30 days before an              
 election so that persons who wanted to change their affiliation               
 could do so.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 323                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWANSON replies the Division of Elections is setting in place             
 a considerable program for advertising, including advertising on              
 RATNET in several dialects.  The division felt that the public was            
 not sufficiently educated in the last election cycle on the split             
 primary, and what the choices were.  It is the division's intent to           
 do as much as possible to educate the public completely on the                
 process.                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 333                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are further questions, or if anyone              
 else would like to testify.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 336                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER makes a motion to discharge HB 47 from the Senate              
 State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                      
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks what committee HB 47 goes to next.                        
                                                                               
 MR. ANDERSON responds the bill goes to the Rules Committee.                   
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER withdraws his motion to discharge HB 47.                       
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announce HB 47 will be held over until Wednesday,              
 April 27, 1994.                                                               
 Number 350                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 400 (PFD ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEEDINGS) as           
 the next order of business before the Senate State Affairs                    
 Committee and calls Ms. Gruening to testify.                                  
                                                                               
 MELINDA GRUENING, Aide to Representative Green, prime sponsor of              
 HB 400, reads the sponsor statement for HB 400.  Ms. Gruening, in             
 the sponsor statement, says that the only cost of filing an appeal            
 for a permanent fund dividend is 29 cents.                                    
                                                                               
 Number 388                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER asks Ms. Gruening if the intent of HB 400 is to                
 discourage appeals.                                                           
                                                                               
 MS. GRUENING responds that is correct.  Representative Green is               
 hoping that HB 400 will have a chilling effect on those filing                
 frivolous appeals.                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 393                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that HB 400 will probably have a chilling               
 effect.  However he disagrees that the only thing a person is out             
 for filing an appeal is a 29 cent stamp.  Senator Taylor asks what            
 the current status is on prosecutions of people who receive                   
 dividends they are not entitled to receive.  He thinks that under             
 the laws passed, there is supposed to be a heck of a lot more risk            
 than a 29 cent stamp.  Senator Taylor asks if 25$ is a good fee,              
 why not 100$ or 150$.                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 435                                                                    
                                                                               
 TOM WILLIAMS, Director, Permanent Fund Dividend Division, states              
 the division does receive a lot of applications from individuals              
 who are clearly ineligible.  The division is active in                        
 investigation of persons receiving dividends to which they were not           
 entitled.  The division routinely prosecutes cases and makes press            
 announcements on those prosecutions every month or two.  Last year            
 there were eight or nine prosecutions.  Every fraud tip is actively           
 pursued.  Mr. Williams describes the penalties for those found                
 guilty of fraud.  Mr. Williams states he will provide the                     
 statistics the division has regarding fraud cases.                            
                                                                               
 Number 463                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER asks Mr. Williams what his thoughts are on raising             
 the 25$ appeal fee.                                                           
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Representative Green to respond to that                   
 question.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 467                                                                    
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN, prime sponsor of HB 400, responds 25$ was           
 a compromise charge.  Significantly larger numbers were discussed,            
 but it was found that many representatives thought even 25$ was too           
 high a figure.  One of the concerns that was expressed was if the             
 figure was to high, a judge might decide the number was arbitrary,            
 capricious, and unreasonable.                                                 
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments a judge could always waive the fee for an             
 indigent person.                                                              
                                                                               
 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN states there is also a provision in the bill             
 allowing the division to waive the fee for an indigent person.                
                                                                               
 Number 483                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. GRUENING adds that a concern was also expressed that a higher             
 fee would put undue hardship on families who appeal; if there were            
 five people in a family, the filing fee would be 125$.  Some people           
 who file appeals are eligible; some of the appeals are overturned.   ed.  
                                                                               
 Number 490                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments he finds quite a few appeals are                      
 overturned, and then what we're really looking at is someone in the           
 division exercising a lack of discretion that is so incredible it             
 makes one wonder if they even get out of bed in the morning.                  
 Senator Taylor states one person on his staff spends three-quarters           
 of her time during the interim working on dividend appeals.                   
 Senator Taylor states the commander of the Coast Guard base in                
 Ketchikan, and his family, had their dividend applications thrown             
 out simply because they were military.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 507                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Williams if the Permanent Fund Dividend               
 Division prosecutes those cases where people move after they apply            
 for dividends.                                                                
                                                                               
 Number 519                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. WILLIAMS responds the eligibility requirements require an                 
 individual to have the intent to remain permanently in Alaska when            
 they sign their application.  If that intent subsequently changes,            
 then they are still eligible for that dividend.  The question                 
 becomes, when they signed, did they really intend to leave.  The              
 division looks at a variety of indicators to determine the person's           
 intent.  It is hard to measure intent in objective terms.                     
                                                                               
 MR. WILLIAMS adds that most of the concerns the division receives             
 relate to individuals who are absent for lengthy periods of time.             
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are further questions or if anyone               
 else wishes to testify on HB 400.                                             
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Williams to submit information to the                 
 committee on prosecutions of cases of fraud.                                  
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER makes a motion to discharge HB 400 from the Senate             
 State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                      
                                                                               
 Number 554                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders HB 400 released from             
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 Number 555                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 351 (CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS;WEAPONS            
 POSS.) as the last order of business before the Senate State                  
 Affairs Committee and calls Ms. Cotting to testify.                           
                                                                               
 BARBARA COTTING, Aide to Representative James, prime sponsor of               
 HB 351, states she will not say a lot about HB 351, since most                
 people are well-versed on it.  There is a Senate State Affairs                
 Committee substitute.   Ms. Cotting states HB 351 received a lot of           
 work in the house, and she feels it addresses everybody's concerns.           
                                                                               
 Number 569                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN notes there was a similar bill, HB 237, before the             
 committee which had a similar concealed carry provision, and so has           
 heard much of the testimony relating to concealed carry.                      
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Ms. Cotting if Representative James has any               
 objection to the committee substitute.                                        
                                                                               
 MS. COTTING responds Representative James has no objection to the             
 committee substitute.                                                         
                                                                               
 Number 578                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN offers the Senate State Affairs Committee substitute           
 to HB 351 and asks if there is any objection.  Hearing none, the              
 committee substitute is adopted.  The chairman asks Ms. Babcock to            
 run through the changes in the committee substitute.                          
                                                                               
 Number 582                                                                    
                                                                               
 PORTIA BABCOCK, Aide to the Senate State Affairs Committee, lists             
 the changes in the committee substitute.                                      
                                                                               
 TAPE 94-30, SIDE B                                                            
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues with a run-down of the changes to HB 351.               
                                                                               
 Number 586                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks how an applicant for a concealed carry permit             
 would know when the department has received the information needed            
 to process the permit application.                                            
                                                                               
 Number 582                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK thinks the applicant would have to inquire that of the            
 Department of Public Safety.  The average for receiving information           
 from the FBI is between 35 to 45 days.                                        
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR states he doesn't mean to slow anything down; it               
 just came to him, how would anyone know how long it takes.                    
                                                                               
 Number 570                                                                    
                                                                               
 C.E. SWACKHAMMER, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety,           
 states the average time it takes to receive information from the              
 FBI is 26 days.  It is anticipated that with the sex offender                 
 (Oprah Winfrey) legislation that just passed, that time frame will            
 move up.  The department thinks it will be able to comply with the            
 time frame set up in the bill.                                                
                                                                               
 Number 569                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK proceeds with outlining the changes to HB 351.                    
                                                                               
 Number 552                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks what action types are there.                              
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds the action types are revolver and semi-                  
 automatic.                                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 550                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why put in the words "...but may not                      
 specifically identify a handgun by make, model, or serial number."            
                                                                               
 Number 544                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK replies it was to keep the bill from ever becoming a              
 gun registration mechanism.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 541                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR relates an example of why we might want to require             
 the serial number of a gun.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 533                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK states one of the concerns was that if a person was               
 qualified on ten different firearms, and had to give the make,                
 model, and serial number of those firearms, then the Department of            
 Public Safety will have record of all those handguns.                         
                                                                               
 Number 524                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if that phrase would prevent someone from                 
 providing that information if they wish to do so.                             
                                                                               
 Number 521                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the department would most likely not                 
 collect that information.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 510                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
                                                                               
 Number 464                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks, on page 5, line 30, if "may" shouldn't be                
 "shall".                                                                      
                                                                               
 Number 455                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds the intent is clear earlier on in the bill               
 that a background check will be done.                                         
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he thinks it should say "will", instead of              
 "may".  The chairman asks that a note be made to check on that with           
 the bill drafter.                                                             
                                                                               
 Number 448                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
                                                                               
 Number 410                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR states he wants to take a look at using the driver's           
 license format for concealed carry permits.                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER thinks that is a good idea, but the problem that              
 the department ran into was separating the license from the permit            
 in an instance where one is revoked and the other is not revoked.             
 Mr. Swackhammer suggests the use of a sticker on the driver's                 
 license that would accomplish the same thing.                                 
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that if a person's driver's license is                  
 revoked, there is probably a reason we would also want to revoke              
 their concealed carry permit.  Senator Taylor also does not want              
 permittees to go for eight years before having to take                        
 recertification classes.  Senator Taylor believes police officers             
 must take recertification courses annually.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 375                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER states that police officers must qualify three                
 times a year, one of which is a supervised shoot.  The Department             
 of Public Safety agrees with Senator Taylor that eight years is too           
 long a period to go before recertification is required.                       
                                                                               
 Number 363                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks the permit renewal should go to every five              
 years, with recertification courses concurrent with renewal.                  
                                                                               
 Number 356                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks that Senator Taylor's comment be noted.                   
                                                                               
 Number 354                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
                                                                               
 Number 343                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why, as specified on page 7, the Department of            
 Public Safety is only going to take a thumbprint to verify the set            
 of prints the applicant brings in.  Why is the department not                 
 taking the prints itself.                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 338                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the intent is to keep the applicant from             
 having to go out and get another complete set of prints taken.  The           
 department is not going to put the prints into the fingerprint                
 system.  That is on the renewal stage only.                                   
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why the department won't take the prints, when            
 they have the equipment available.                                            
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER replies the department does not have the equipment   ent  
 available.                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why we would want to allow someone to make                
 their own fingerprints.                                                       
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds there are approved places where people can           
 get fingerprints taken.  It is the intent to specify in regulation            
 that applicants must get fingerprints taken at approved locations.            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there will be commercial places where people           
 can get fingerprints taken.                                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds that there are already commercial places           
 where people can get fingerprints taken.                                      
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer where the language is in HB 351           
 giving the department the authority to set up regulations stating             
 where fingerprints shall be taken.  Senator Taylor states without             
 the authority, the department cannot set up regulations.                      
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds there is a section in the back of HB 351             
 giving the department the authority to set up regulations to                  
 implement specific sections of the bill.                                      
                                                                               
 Number 305                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks where the section is for setting up regulations           
 on fingerprints.                                                              
                                                                               
 (At this point, there is a lot of static on the tape and the answer           
 is not discernable.)                                                          
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR wants language inserted stating fingerprints will be           
 taken at an approved site.                                                    
                                                                               
 Number 295                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces it is his intent to hold HB 351 over until           
 Wednesday's hearing.  Items of concern will be worked on between              
 now and Wednesday.                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 290                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
 Number 269                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER asks for clarification on whether not having a                 
 concealed carry permit was only a violation if that person was                
 carrying a concealed weapon.                                                  
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK states the bill specifies that a permittee will carry             
 the permit at all times the permittee carries a concealed weapon.             
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER comments that requiring a permittee to carry a                
 permit at all times, even when not carrying a concealed weapon,               
 would be like requiring someone to carry their driver's license               
 while walking down the street.                                                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN adds he has been asked for his driver's license at             
 times when he wasn't driving.                                                 
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
                                                                               
 Number 248                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what people are going to do in instances where            
 they are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon.  He gives an                
 example of a woman who is carrying a gun for personal protection,             
 and asks what this woman is going to do when she goes to her                  
 child's school, to the court house, to the bank, and to the woman's           
 shelter-all in one day, while trying to carry a concealed weapon.             
                                                                               
 Number 224                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds the primary place concealed weapons will not             
 be allowed is in a bar.  Ms. Babcock continues detailing the                  
 changes to HB 351.                                                            
                                                                               
 Number 211                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the current regulations are concerning the           
 carrying of weapons by off-duty police officers.                              
                                                                               
 Number 207                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds he can only speak for the Department of              
 Public Safety officers.  Anytime an officer is consuming alcohol,             
 he is not to be armed.  There are no other restrictions.  DPS's               
 regulations deal solely with the consumption of alcohol.                      
                                                                               
 Number 195                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER asks how HB 351 would apply to a restaurant that has           
 an alcohol license.                                                           
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds it is already in law that a weapon, whether              
 carried openly or concealed, cannot be carried in places where                
 alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises.                              
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER asks if an off duty police officer could carry a               
 loaded weapon in a place where alcohol is served.                             
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK asks if it is in statute that officers are exempt from            
 that law.                                                                     
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it is not.  (Apparently off-duty police              
 officers are allowed to carry a loaded weapon in a place where                
 alcohol is served for consumption on the premises, as long as the             
 officers are not consuming alcohol.)                                          
                                                                               
 SENATOR MILLER comments that is a double-standard.                            
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if an unloaded firearm could be carried.                  
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds they could.                                              
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments people aren't going to go through the                 
 process of unloading their weapon.                                            
                                                                               
 (At this point, there are several different conversations going on            
 around the committee table.  There is general discussion of a                 
 double-standard in relation to the carrying of a firearm by a                 
 private individual and the carrying of a firearm by an off-duty               
 police officer.)                                                              
                                                                               
 Number 171                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
                                                                               
 Number 127                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the other prohibited weapons would be.               
                                                                               
 Number 121                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds those would be switch blades, explosives,                
 gravity knives, brass knuckles, etcetera.                                     
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351.                        
                                                                               
 Number 094                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR is concerned that citizens are being required to               
 meet higher standards than those police officers are required to              
 meet.  Senator Taylor wants a system that encourages people to seek           
 treatment for alcohol problems, not discourage seeking help.  He              
 asks Mr. Swackhammer how he thinks the standards police officers              
 are required to meet and those citizens are required to meet could            
 be made more equitable.                                                       
                                                                               
 Number 050                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER says the difference between a police officer and a            
 private citizen is that the police officers can be much more highly           
 supervised than the general citizenry.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 027                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if it will be possible for an applicant to have           
 somewhat of a checkered past.                                                 
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds he does not have a copy of the Alaska                
 Police Standards Council regulations...                                       
                                                                               
 TAPE 94-31, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 001                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER outlines the guidelines for dealing with drug and             
 alcohol use by police officers and recruits.  Mr. Swackhammer                 
 states that police officers are held to much higher standards that            
 other citizens.                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 035                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR states he asks because there have always been                  
 problems with substance abuse in high-stress occupations, and he              
 wants to make sure there is a half-way level playing field.  He               
 does expect a higher standard where officers are concerned.                   
 Senator Taylor relates an incident in which an intoxicated police             
 officer discharged all six rounds from his revolver inside the                
 police station.  Senator Taylor asks if an officer can get                    
 treatment and not lose his career.                                            
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds yes.  An officer would be on probationary            
 status for a long time after treatment.                                       
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Babcock if she has further comments.                  
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK replies she has none at this time.                                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer for the department's position             
 regarding the changes to HB 351.                                              
                                                                               
 Number 100                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER states for the record that he appreciates                     
 Representative James and Senator Leman's office for addressing the            
 concerns of the Department of Public Safety.  The department does             
 support the changes; the department believes they are reasonable.             
 If a bill must be passed, HB 351 would be the best vehicle.                   
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer if the department believes the            
 bill has the protections the department believes are necessary.               
                                                                               
                                                                               
 Number 106                                                                    
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it does.                                             
                                                                               
 Number 108                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK adds there is one additional change that should be made           
 to the cs to HB 351.  The change is on page 9, line 21 of the cs.             
 The language in the cs states the department and its' employees are           
 not liable.  This language was changed in House Judiciary to                  
 specify that the state and its' officers and employees are not              
 liable.  She recommends incorporating House Judiciary's language              
 into the cs.                                                                  
                                                                               
 Number 120                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to amend the Senate State Affairs               
 Committee substitute.  On page 9, line 21, delete the word                    
 "department", insert the word "state".                                        
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any objection to that amendment.              
 Hearing none, the chairman states amendment #1 has been adopted.              
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR offers amendment #2.  On page 2, line 29, a                    
 conceptual amendment which would make certain that fingerprints               
 would be taken at an approved site.                                           
                                                                               
 Number 138                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any objection to amendment #2.                
 Hearing none, the chairman states amendment #2 has been adopted.              
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR offers amendment #3.  On page 3, line 20, change the           
 word "four" to the word "five".  Senator Taylor wants to tie in the           
 permitting process and the refresher courses with the driver's                
 licenses.                                                                     
                                                                               
 Number 157                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Senator Taylor if the committee can wait until            
 Wednesday to take up that set of amendments.                                  
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR discusses amendment #3.                                        
                                                                               
 Number 173                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks that the set of amendments involved in                  
 amendment #3 are linked.  He would like to hear testimony on                  
 amendment #3 on Wednesday.                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR does not think it is too much of a burden to require           
 people to take a recertification course once every five years.                
                                                                               
 Number 183                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK comments that the only problem that might occur in                
 coordinating driver's licenses with concealed carry permits is                
 keeping up with revocations or suspensions.                                   
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that if a person has enough violations to               
 cause their driver's license to be suspended, then perhaps they               
 should not be carrying a concealed weapon either.                             
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK responds the Department of Public Safety was more                 
 concerned about revoking the permit to carry a concealed weapon.              
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER thinks the department can accommodate showing                 
 concealed carry permits on ADL's (Alaska Driver's Licenses) through           
 a sticker system.                                                             
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says as long as it is really visible that would be             
 okay.  He would rather have it right on the license, though.                  
                                                                               
 Number 207                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN suggests the committee might not want to restrict              
 the department's ability to use new technology as it is developed.            
                                                                               
 Number 215                                                                    
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says if a person gets themself in a situation where            
 either their ADL or their permit to carry is revoked, they should             
 have to come back in and get a new license.                                   
                                                                               
 Number 222                                                                    
                                                                               
 MS. BABCOCK states there is one other minor change that needs to be           
 made on page 13, line 6 of the committee substitute.  The words "or           
 impose" should be inserted between the words "remove" and "a".                
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he will move that amendment as amendment #3.            
 The chairman asks if there is any objection.  Hearing none, the               
 amendment has been adopted.                                                   
                                                                               
 Number 236                                                                    
                                                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states the other conceptual amendments will be held            
 until Wednesday.                                                              
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer if those amendments would                 
 change the department's position on HB 351.                                   
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds that the Department of Public Safety does            
 not support the concept of permitting for concealed carry, but if             
 the legislature is going to pass a bill, HB 351 is the best form.             
                                                                               
 SENATOR TAYLOR states he is asking because the Governor has                   
 indicated that he will sign this into law, as long as it meets with           
 concerns that have been raised by the Department of Public Safety.            
 Senator Taylor asks if HB 351 is meeting those concerns.                      
                                                                               
 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it is meeting the concerns of the                    
 department.                                                                   
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourns the meeting of the Senate State Affairs               
 Committee meeting.                                                            
                                                                               

Document Name Date/Time Subjects