Legislature(1993 - 1994)
04/25/1994 09:12 AM STA
* first hearing in first committee of referral
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE April 25, 1994 9:12 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT Senator Loren Leman, Chair Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair Senator Robin Taylor MEMBERS ABSENT Senator Jim Duncan Senator Johnny Ellis COMMITTEE CALENDAR CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 153(JUD) am "An Act related to the awarding of special good time deductions for prisoners participating in the Point MacKenzie Rehabilitation Project; and providing for an effective date." CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 47(FIN) "An Act relating to primary elections and to the delivery of the primary ballots to persons making application for them when, by operation of political party rule, two or more primary ballots must be provided to the public; preventing a voter from changing the voter's party affiliation within 30 days of a primary election when two or more primary ballots must be provided to the public; and annulling a related regulation; and providing for an effective date." HOUSE BILL NO. 400 "An Act relating to administrative proceedings involving a determination of eligibility for a permanent fund dividend or authority to claim a dividend on behalf of another." CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 351(FIN) am(efd add) "An Act relating to permits for the carrying of a concealed handgun; providing for local option elections in municipalities and established villages to prohibit the possession of a concealed handgun under a permit; and relating to the possession of weapons; and providing for an effective date." PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION HB 153 - No previous senate committee action. HB 47 - No previous senate committee action. HB 400 - No previous senate committee action. HB 351 - No previous senate committee action. WITNESS REGISTER Melva Krogseng, Aide Representative Barnes State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3438 POSITION STATEMENT: author of cs for HB 153 Tom Anderson, Aide Representative Martin State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3783 POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 47 Joseph L. Swanson, Director Division of Elections P.O. Box 110017, Juneau, AK 99811-0017¶465-4611 POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 47 Melinda Gruening, Aide Representative Green State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4931 POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 400 Thomas C. Williams, Director Permanent Fund Dividend Corporation Department of Revenue P.O. Box 110460, Juneau, AK 99811-0460¶465-2323 POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 400 Representative Green State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4931 POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 400 Barbara C. Cotting, Aide Representative James State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3743 POSITION STATEMENT: prime sponsor of HB 351 Portia C.K. Babcock, Aide Senate State Affairs Committee State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-2095 POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 351 C.E. Swackhammer, Deputy Commissioner Department of Public Safety P.O. Box 111200, Juneau, AK 99811-1200¶465-4322 POSITION STATEMENT: testified on HB 351 ACTION NARRATIVE TAPE 94-30 & 94-31 TAPE 94-30, SIDE A Number 001 CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at 9:12 a.m. CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 153 (GOOD TIME: PT. MACKENZIE REHAB PROJECT) as the first order of business before the Senate State Affairs Committee and calls Ms. Krogseng to testify. Number 011 MEL KROGSENG, Aide to Representative Barnes, author of the committee substitute for HB 153, reads a sponsor statement for HB 153. Number 065 MS. KROGSENG states there are currently 72 inmates at Point MacKenzie, and there is a current capacity for just under 100 inmates. It is felt that the project could easily house 160 inmates. However, the project does need some type of incentive. There are 245 adult reindeer, and as of this weekend, 18 baby reindeer. Number 083 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Krogseng to clarify whether the project is having trouble getting people to volunteer. Number 094 MS. KROGSENG responds that not all volunteers are suitable candidates. She believes this project can ease some of the crowding in the institutions. Ms. Krogseng discusses statistics relating to the number of persons currently in state custody. MS. KROGSENG lists some of the other benefits to inmates serving at Point Mackenzie, which include accredited GED programs and firefighter programs. MS. KROGSENG states the inmates are also doing a great deal to preserve an asset of the state. Number 143 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Krogseng how many prisoners in the system are eligible to go to Project Hope, but are not volunteering. Number 145 MS. KROGSENG states she does not know exactly. One of the requirements is that inmates have two years left on their sentence. Committee members should have an inmate profile report. In that report, there are 541 minimum custody inmates, and 110 community custody inmates in institutions. Those inmates would meet the custody level requirements. How many of those would meet the two wo year service requirement, she does not know. Number 162 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Krogseng if she can have that answer for the senate by the time HB 153 reaches the floor. MS. KROGSENG replies she would think so. Number 178 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if the GED program has been in operation long enough to gauge the success rate of the program. MS. KROGSENG responds it hasn't been in operation very long, but there is optimism that the program will be successful. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks the pleasure of the committee. Number 195 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to discharge HB 153 from the Senate State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations. Number 197 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders HB 153 released from committee with individual recommendations. Number 199 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 47 (ABSENTEE BALLOTS - PRIMARY ELECTIONS) as the next order of business before the Senate State Affairs Committee. The chairman calls Mr. Anderson to testify. Number 201 TOM ANDERSON, Aide to Representative Martin, prime sponsor of HB 47, introduces the bill and says the purpose of HB 47 is to insure that absentee ballot applicants for primary elections receive the proper ballot. Mr. Anderson states that HB 47 would ensure that if an applicant for an absentee ballot fails to mark which ballot they would like to receive, the Division of Elections would send them the ballot of their party affiliation. MR. ANDERSON states HB 47 would also prevent a voter from changing their party registration 30 days prior to the primary. The Division of Elections believes this will allow for a smoother election. MR. ANDERSON states HB 47 has a zero fiscal note, and will not have any substantial financial impact. Mr. Anderson announces that Mr. Swanson, Director of the Division of Elections is available to answer questions. Number 246 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks how many people, in the 1992 election cycle, changed their party affiliation at the polls or within 30 days of the election. Number 252 JOE SWANSON, Director, Division of Elections, responds the division does not have an answer to the chairman's question. However, it was more than a couple hundred people and less than a couple thousand people. He will try to pin a number down for the committee, but those are not records that the division keeps. Number 262 CHAIRMAN LEMAN surmises that persons changing their party affiliation so close to an election would probably be people who were registered as democrats or AIP switching to a non-partisan affiliation. Number 270 MR. SWANSON responds the way the state republican party rules are written and the current regulations of the Division of Elections, a person who is registered republican can vote any ballot; a person who is registered democrat or green party you are restricted to vote the republican ballot. Anyone registered non-partisan or independent may vote both ballots. (People registered nonpartisan or independent may choose either the open ballot or the republican can ballot.) CHAIRMAN LEMAN comments he thinks Mr. Swanson misspoke, and meant to say that democrats, greens, and AIP were restricted to the open ballot. MR. SWANSON states the chairman is correct. Number 282 SENATOR MILLER states he would support the first portion of the bill, but he does not support the portion restricting people's ability to change their party affiliation. Senator Miller stresses again that he has a big problem with that portion of the bill, and says it would be enough to make him vote against the bill if it gets to the floor of the senate. Number 293 MR. SWANSON responds not allowing people to change their party affiliation within 30 days before an election was put in HB 47 at the request of the Division of Elections. Persons registering to vote for the first time must register 30 days before the election. A person is also not allowed to change their district registration within 30 days before an election. Mr. Swanson states it is his understanding that people changing their party affiliation at the last minute in the 1992 primary election caused a lot of problems and confusion. The Division of Elections is simply asking that the same time frame be applied to changing party affiliation as is applied to all other changes made in the voter registration process. Number 312 SENATOR MILLER states he has a philosophical disagreement with Mr. Swanson, and Senator Miller does not like persons not being allowed to change party affiliation up until the moment they cast their vote. Senator Miller thinks that since there are not great numbers of people changing their affiliation, it shouldn't be that much of a problem. Number 319 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swanson if the Division of Elections intends to publish and advertise this change disallowing people to change their party affiliation within 30 days before an election. The chairman asks Mr. Swanson if the division intends to have registrars available in public places prior to 30 days before an election so that persons who wanted to change their affiliation could do so. Number 323 MR. SWANSON replies the Division of Elections is setting in place a considerable program for advertising, including advertising on RATNET in several dialects. The division felt that the public was not sufficiently educated in the last election cycle on the split primary, and what the choices were. It is the division's intent to do as much as possible to educate the public completely on the process. Number 333 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are further questions, or if anyone else would like to testify. Number 336 SENATOR MILLER makes a motion to discharge HB 47 from the Senate State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks what committee HB 47 goes to next. MR. ANDERSON responds the bill goes to the Rules Committee. SENATOR MILLER withdraws his motion to discharge HB 47. CHAIRMAN LEMAN announce HB 47 will be held over until Wednesday, April 27, 1994. Number 350 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 400 (PFD ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEEDINGS) as the next order of business before the Senate State Affairs Committee and calls Ms. Gruening to testify. MELINDA GRUENING, Aide to Representative Green, prime sponsor of HB 400, reads the sponsor statement for HB 400. Ms. Gruening, in the sponsor statement, says that the only cost of filing an appeal for a permanent fund dividend is 29 cents. Number 388 SENATOR MILLER asks Ms. Gruening if the intent of HB 400 is to discourage appeals. MS. GRUENING responds that is correct. Representative Green is hoping that HB 400 will have a chilling effect on those filing frivolous appeals. Number 393 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that HB 400 will probably have a chilling effect. However he disagrees that the only thing a person is out for filing an appeal is a 29 cent stamp. Senator Taylor asks what the current status is on prosecutions of people who receive dividends they are not entitled to receive. He thinks that under the laws passed, there is supposed to be a heck of a lot more risk than a 29 cent stamp. Senator Taylor asks if 25$ is a good fee, why not 100$ or 150$. Number 435 TOM WILLIAMS, Director, Permanent Fund Dividend Division, states the division does receive a lot of applications from individuals who are clearly ineligible. The division is active in investigation of persons receiving dividends to which they were not entitled. The division routinely prosecutes cases and makes press announcements on those prosecutions every month or two. Last year there were eight or nine prosecutions. Every fraud tip is actively pursued. Mr. Williams describes the penalties for those found guilty of fraud. Mr. Williams states he will provide the statistics the division has regarding fraud cases. Number 463 SENATOR MILLER asks Mr. Williams what his thoughts are on raising the 25$ appeal fee. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Representative Green to respond to that question. Number 467 REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN, prime sponsor of HB 400, responds 25$ was a compromise charge. Significantly larger numbers were discussed, but it was found that many representatives thought even 25$ was too high a figure. One of the concerns that was expressed was if the figure was to high, a judge might decide the number was arbitrary, capricious, and unreasonable. SENATOR TAYLOR comments a judge could always waive the fee for an indigent person. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN states there is also a provision in the bill allowing the division to waive the fee for an indigent person. Number 483 MS. GRUENING adds that a concern was also expressed that a higher fee would put undue hardship on families who appeal; if there were five people in a family, the filing fee would be 125$. Some people who file appeals are eligible; some of the appeals are overturned. ed. Number 490 SENATOR TAYLOR comments he finds quite a few appeals are overturned, and then what we're really looking at is someone in the division exercising a lack of discretion that is so incredible it makes one wonder if they even get out of bed in the morning. Senator Taylor states one person on his staff spends three-quarters of her time during the interim working on dividend appeals. Senator Taylor states the commander of the Coast Guard base in Ketchikan, and his family, had their dividend applications thrown out simply because they were military. Number 507 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Williams if the Permanent Fund Dividend Division prosecutes those cases where people move after they apply for dividends. Number 519 MR. WILLIAMS responds the eligibility requirements require an individual to have the intent to remain permanently in Alaska when they sign their application. If that intent subsequently changes, then they are still eligible for that dividend. The question becomes, when they signed, did they really intend to leave. The division looks at a variety of indicators to determine the person's intent. It is hard to measure intent in objective terms. MR. WILLIAMS adds that most of the concerns the division receives relate to individuals who are absent for lengthy periods of time. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are further questions or if anyone else wishes to testify on HB 400. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Williams to submit information to the committee on prosecutions of cases of fraud. SENATOR MILLER makes a motion to discharge HB 400 from the Senate State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations. Number 554 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders HB 400 released from committee with individual recommendations. Number 555 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 351 (CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITS;WEAPONS POSS.) as the last order of business before the Senate State Affairs Committee and calls Ms. Cotting to testify. BARBARA COTTING, Aide to Representative James, prime sponsor of HB 351, states she will not say a lot about HB 351, since most people are well-versed on it. There is a Senate State Affairs Committee substitute. Ms. Cotting states HB 351 received a lot of work in the house, and she feels it addresses everybody's concerns. Number 569 CHAIRMAN LEMAN notes there was a similar bill, HB 237, before the committee which had a similar concealed carry provision, and so has heard much of the testimony relating to concealed carry. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Ms. Cotting if Representative James has any objection to the committee substitute. MS. COTTING responds Representative James has no objection to the committee substitute. Number 578 CHAIRMAN LEMAN offers the Senate State Affairs Committee substitute to HB 351 and asks if there is any objection. Hearing none, the committee substitute is adopted. The chairman asks Ms. Babcock to run through the changes in the committee substitute. Number 582 PORTIA BABCOCK, Aide to the Senate State Affairs Committee, lists the changes in the committee substitute. TAPE 94-30, SIDE B MS. BABCOCK continues with a run-down of the changes to HB 351. Number 586 SENATOR TAYLOR asks how an applicant for a concealed carry permit would know when the department has received the information needed to process the permit application. Number 582 MS. BABCOCK thinks the applicant would have to inquire that of the Department of Public Safety. The average for receiving information from the FBI is between 35 to 45 days. SENATOR TAYLOR states he doesn't mean to slow anything down; it just came to him, how would anyone know how long it takes. Number 570 C.E. SWACKHAMMER, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety, states the average time it takes to receive information from the FBI is 26 days. It is anticipated that with the sex offender (Oprah Winfrey) legislation that just passed, that time frame will move up. The department thinks it will be able to comply with the time frame set up in the bill. Number 569 MS. BABCOCK proceeds with outlining the changes to HB 351. Number 552 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks what action types are there. MS. BABCOCK responds the action types are revolver and semi- automatic. Number 550 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why put in the words "...but may not specifically identify a handgun by make, model, or serial number." Number 544 MS. BABCOCK replies it was to keep the bill from ever becoming a gun registration mechanism. Number 541 SENATOR TAYLOR relates an example of why we might want to require the serial number of a gun. Number 533 MS. BABCOCK states one of the concerns was that if a person was qualified on ten different firearms, and had to give the make, model, and serial number of those firearms, then the Department of Public Safety will have record of all those handguns. Number 524 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if that phrase would prevent someone from providing that information if they wish to do so. Number 521 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the department would most likely not collect that information. Number 510 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 464 SENATOR TAYLOR asks, on page 5, line 30, if "may" shouldn't be "shall". Number 455 MS. BABCOCK responds the intent is clear earlier on in the bill that a background check will be done. CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he thinks it should say "will", instead of "may". The chairman asks that a note be made to check on that with the bill drafter. Number 448 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 410 SENATOR TAYLOR states he wants to take a look at using the driver's license format for concealed carry permits. MR. SWACKHAMMER thinks that is a good idea, but the problem that the department ran into was separating the license from the permit in an instance where one is revoked and the other is not revoked. Mr. Swackhammer suggests the use of a sticker on the driver's license that would accomplish the same thing. SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that if a person's driver's license is revoked, there is probably a reason we would also want to revoke their concealed carry permit. Senator Taylor also does not want permittees to go for eight years before having to take recertification classes. Senator Taylor believes police officers must take recertification courses annually. Number 375 MR. SWACKHAMMER states that police officers must qualify three times a year, one of which is a supervised shoot. The Department of Public Safety agrees with Senator Taylor that eight years is too long a period to go before recertification is required. Number 363 SENATOR TAYLOR thinks the permit renewal should go to every five years, with recertification courses concurrent with renewal. Number 356 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks that Senator Taylor's comment be noted. Number 354 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 343 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why, as specified on page 7, the Department of Public Safety is only going to take a thumbprint to verify the set of prints the applicant brings in. Why is the department not taking the prints itself. Number 338 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds the intent is to keep the applicant from having to go out and get another complete set of prints taken. The department is not going to put the prints into the fingerprint system. That is on the renewal stage only. SENATOR TAYLOR asks why the department won't take the prints, when they have the equipment available. MR. SWACKHAMMER replies the department does not have the equipment ent available. SENATOR TAYLOR asks why we would want to allow someone to make their own fingerprints. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds there are approved places where people can get fingerprints taken. It is the intent to specify in regulation that applicants must get fingerprints taken at approved locations. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there will be commercial places where people can get fingerprints taken. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds that there are already commercial places where people can get fingerprints taken. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer where the language is in HB 351 giving the department the authority to set up regulations stating where fingerprints shall be taken. Senator Taylor states without the authority, the department cannot set up regulations. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds there is a section in the back of HB 351 giving the department the authority to set up regulations to implement specific sections of the bill. Number 305 SENATOR TAYLOR asks where the section is for setting up regulations on fingerprints. (At this point, there is a lot of static on the tape and the answer is not discernable.) SENATOR TAYLOR wants language inserted stating fingerprints will be taken at an approved site. Number 295 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces it is his intent to hold HB 351 over until Wednesday's hearing. Items of concern will be worked on between now and Wednesday. Number 290 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 269 SENATOR MILLER asks for clarification on whether not having a concealed carry permit was only a violation if that person was carrying a concealed weapon. MS. BABCOCK states the bill specifies that a permittee will carry the permit at all times the permittee carries a concealed weapon. MR. SWACKHAMMER comments that requiring a permittee to carry a permit at all times, even when not carrying a concealed weapon, would be like requiring someone to carry their driver's license while walking down the street. CHAIRMAN LEMAN adds he has been asked for his driver's license at times when he wasn't driving. MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 248 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what people are going to do in instances where they are not allowed to carry a concealed weapon. He gives an example of a woman who is carrying a gun for personal protection, and asks what this woman is going to do when she goes to her child's school, to the court house, to the bank, and to the woman's shelter-all in one day, while trying to carry a concealed weapon. Number 224 MS. BABCOCK responds the primary place concealed weapons will not be allowed is in a bar. Ms. Babcock continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 211 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the current regulations are concerning the carrying of weapons by off-duty police officers. Number 207 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds he can only speak for the Department of Public Safety officers. Anytime an officer is consuming alcohol, he is not to be armed. There are no other restrictions. DPS's regulations deal solely with the consumption of alcohol. Number 195 SENATOR MILLER asks how HB 351 would apply to a restaurant that has an alcohol license. MS. BABCOCK responds it is already in law that a weapon, whether carried openly or concealed, cannot be carried in places where alcohol is sold for consumption on the premises. SENATOR MILLER asks if an off duty police officer could carry a loaded weapon in a place where alcohol is served. MS. BABCOCK asks if it is in statute that officers are exempt from that law. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it is not. (Apparently off-duty police officers are allowed to carry a loaded weapon in a place where alcohol is served for consumption on the premises, as long as the officers are not consuming alcohol.) SENATOR MILLER comments that is a double-standard. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if an unloaded firearm could be carried. MS. BABCOCK responds they could. SENATOR TAYLOR comments people aren't going to go through the process of unloading their weapon. (At this point, there are several different conversations going on around the committee table. There is general discussion of a double-standard in relation to the carrying of a firearm by a private individual and the carrying of a firearm by an off-duty police officer.) Number 171 MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 127 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the other prohibited weapons would be. Number 121 MS. BABCOCK responds those would be switch blades, explosives, gravity knives, brass knuckles, etcetera. MS. BABCOCK continues detailing the changes to HB 351. Number 094 SENATOR TAYLOR is concerned that citizens are being required to meet higher standards than those police officers are required to meet. Senator Taylor wants a system that encourages people to seek treatment for alcohol problems, not discourage seeking help. He asks Mr. Swackhammer how he thinks the standards police officers are required to meet and those citizens are required to meet could be made more equitable. Number 050 MR. SWACKHAMMER says the difference between a police officer and a private citizen is that the police officers can be much more highly supervised than the general citizenry. Number 027 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if it will be possible for an applicant to have somewhat of a checkered past. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds he does not have a copy of the Alaska Police Standards Council regulations... TAPE 94-31, SIDE A Number 001 MR. SWACKHAMMER outlines the guidelines for dealing with drug and alcohol use by police officers and recruits. Mr. Swackhammer states that police officers are held to much higher standards that other citizens. Number 035 SENATOR TAYLOR states he asks because there have always been problems with substance abuse in high-stress occupations, and he wants to make sure there is a half-way level playing field. He does expect a higher standard where officers are concerned. Senator Taylor relates an incident in which an intoxicated police officer discharged all six rounds from his revolver inside the police station. Senator Taylor asks if an officer can get treatment and not lose his career. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds yes. An officer would be on probationary status for a long time after treatment. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Ms. Babcock if she has further comments. MS. BABCOCK replies she has none at this time. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer for the department's position regarding the changes to HB 351. Number 100 MR. SWACKHAMMER states for the record that he appreciates Representative James and Senator Leman's office for addressing the concerns of the Department of Public Safety. The department does support the changes; the department believes they are reasonable. If a bill must be passed, HB 351 would be the best vehicle. CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Swackhammer if the department believes the bill has the protections the department believes are necessary. Number 106 MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it does. Number 108 MS. BABCOCK adds there is one additional change that should be made to the cs to HB 351. The change is on page 9, line 21 of the cs. The language in the cs states the department and its' employees are not liable. This language was changed in House Judiciary to specify that the state and its' officers and employees are not liable. She recommends incorporating House Judiciary's language into the cs. Number 120 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to amend the Senate State Affairs Committee substitute. On page 9, line 21, delete the word "department", insert the word "state". CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any objection to that amendment. Hearing none, the chairman states amendment #1 has been adopted. SENATOR TAYLOR offers amendment #2. On page 2, line 29, a conceptual amendment which would make certain that fingerprints would be taken at an approved site. Number 138 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any objection to amendment #2. Hearing none, the chairman states amendment #2 has been adopted. SENATOR TAYLOR offers amendment #3. On page 3, line 20, change the word "four" to the word "five". Senator Taylor wants to tie in the permitting process and the refresher courses with the driver's licenses. Number 157 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Senator Taylor if the committee can wait until Wednesday to take up that set of amendments. SENATOR TAYLOR discusses amendment #3. Number 173 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thinks that the set of amendments involved in amendment #3 are linked. He would like to hear testimony on amendment #3 on Wednesday. SENATOR TAYLOR does not think it is too much of a burden to require people to take a recertification course once every five years. Number 183 MS. BABCOCK comments that the only problem that might occur in coordinating driver's licenses with concealed carry permits is keeping up with revocations or suspensions. SENATOR TAYLOR thinks that if a person has enough violations to cause their driver's license to be suspended, then perhaps they should not be carrying a concealed weapon either. MS. BABCOCK responds the Department of Public Safety was more concerned about revoking the permit to carry a concealed weapon. MR. SWACKHAMMER thinks the department can accommodate showing concealed carry permits on ADL's (Alaska Driver's Licenses) through a sticker system. SENATOR TAYLOR says as long as it is really visible that would be okay. He would rather have it right on the license, though. Number 207 CHAIRMAN LEMAN suggests the committee might not want to restrict the department's ability to use new technology as it is developed. Number 215 SENATOR TAYLOR says if a person gets themself in a situation where either their ADL or their permit to carry is revoked, they should have to come back in and get a new license. Number 222 MS. BABCOCK states there is one other minor change that needs to be made on page 13, line 6 of the committee substitute. The words "or impose" should be inserted between the words "remove" and "a". CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he will move that amendment as amendment #3. The chairman asks if there is any objection. Hearing none, the amendment has been adopted. Number 236 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states the other conceptual amendments will be held until Wednesday. SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Swackhammer if those amendments would change the department's position on HB 351. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds that the Department of Public Safety does not support the concept of permitting for concealed carry, but if the legislature is going to pass a bill, HB 351 is the best form. SENATOR TAYLOR states he is asking because the Governor has indicated that he will sign this into law, as long as it meets with concerns that have been raised by the Department of Public Safety. Senator Taylor asks if HB 351 is meeting those concerns. MR. SWACKHAMMER responds it is meeting the concerns of the department. CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourns the meeting of the Senate State Affairs Committee meeting.