Legislature(1993 - 1994)

03/02/1994 09:05 AM Senate STA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                SENATE STATE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE                                 
                         March 2, 1994                                         
                           9:05 a.m.                                           
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
 Senator Loren Leman, Chair                                                    
 Senator Mike Miller, Vice Chair                                               
 Senator Robin Taylor                                                          
 Senator Jim Duncan                                                            
 Senator Johnny Ellis                                                          
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
 All Members Present                                                           
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
 SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 36                                                
 Proposing amendments to the Constitution of the State of Alaska               
 requiring that candidates for governor and candidates for                     
 lieutenant governor receive more than 50 percent of the votes cast            
 to be elected and changing the term of office of the governor and             
 the lieutenant governor.                                                      
 SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 263                                     
 "An Act relating to municipal property tax exemptions."                       
 HOUSE BILL NO. 280                                                            
 "An Act adopting the Uniform Custodial Trust Act."                            
 SENATE BILL NO. 303                                                           
 "An Act relating to voter eligibility, voter registration, and                
 voter registration agencies; and providing for an effective date."            
 SENATE BILL NO. 280                                                           
 "An Act establishing the Afognak Island State Park."                          
  PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION                                             
 SJR 36 - See State Affairs minutes dated 2/17/94.                             
 HB 263 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
 HB 280 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
 SB 303 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
 SB 280 - No previous senate committee action.                                 
 WITNESS REGISTER                                                              
 Representative Mark Hanley                                                    
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4939                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  prime sponsor of HB 263                                 
 Karen Brand, Aide                                                             
 House Rules Committee                                                         
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-4451                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  prime sponsor of HB 280                                 
 Art Peterson, Commissioner                                                    
 National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws (NCCUSL)           
 350 N. Franklin St., Juneau, AK 99801¶586-4000                                
  POSITION STATEMENT:  in favor of HB 280                                      
 Laura A. Glaiser                                                              
 Office of the Lieutenant Governor                                             
 P.O. Box 110015, Juneau, AK 99811-0015¶465-4084                               
  POSITION STATEMENT:  in favor of SB 303                                      
 Jeff Bush                                                                     
 Alaska Civil Liberties Union                                                  
 175 S. Franklin St., Suite 318, Juneau, AK 99801¶463-4150                     
  POSITION STATEMENT:  in favor of SB 303                                      
 Craig Tillery, Assistant Attorney General                                     
 Department of Law                                                             
 1031 W. 4th, Suite 200, Anchorage, AK 99501-1994¶269-5100                     
  POSITION STATEMENT:  in favor of SB 280                                      
 Neil Johannsen, Director                                                      
 Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation                                        
 Department of Natural Resources                                               
 P.O. Box 107001, Anchorage, AK 99510-7001¶762-2600                            
  POSITION STATEMENT:  in favor of SB 280                                      
 Senator Fred Zharoff                                                          
 State Capitol, Juneau, AK 99801-1182¶465-3473                                 
  POSITION STATEMENT:  in favor of SB 280                                      
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
 TAPE 94-12, SIDE A                                                            
 Number 001                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN calls the Senate State Affairs Committee to order at           
 9:05 a.m.                                                                     
 Number 010                                                                    
 VOTE) as the first order of business before the committee.  The               
 chairman notes that the committee substitute (cs) for SJR 36                  
 changes the 50% requirement to 40%.                                           
 Number 020                                                                    
 SENATOR MILLER moves the committee adopt the cs in lieu of the                
 original bill.                                                                
 Number 021                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, states CSSJR 36(STA) has been           
 adopted in lieu of the original bill.  The chairman asks if there             
 is any discussion on the resolution or if there is anyone who                 
 wishes to testify on it.                                                      
 Number 026                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to release SJR 36 from the State                
 Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                            
 Number 028                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders SJR 36 released from             
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 Number 031                                                                    
 PROP.) as the next order of business before the State Affairs                 
 Committee.  The chairman calls the sponsor to testify.                        
 Number 035                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE MARK HANLEY, prime sponsor of HB 263 says the bill             
 will give municipalities more flexibility in their tax laws.  It              
 does not require municipalities to do anything.  Municipalities               
 will still have to pass any changes by ordinance.                             
 What brought this situation to light in Anchorage is that while a             
 50,000 dollar motor home is taxed fifty dollars under the motor               
 vehicle tax, a 50,000 dollar private airplane is taxed 1,000                  
 dollars.  Municipalities have no option of exempting or partially             
 exempting aircraft.  What the municipality of Anchorage would like            
 do is set a straight fee of a 100 or 150 dollars for a single                 
 engine aircraft and 200 dollars for a twin engine aircraft.  That             
 way, the municipality would not have to go through the assessment             
 every year, the appeals of the valuation, etcetera.  The                      
 Municipality of Anchorage thinks it will actually save one and a              
 half to three full time positions by doing this.                              
 HB 263 would also apply to undocumented boats and vessels, pick-up            
 camper shells and canopies, and unlicensed atv's, snowmachines, and           
 trail bikes.  Right now, if the municipality wants to tax these               
 items, it has to be at the mill rate, which means the municipality            
 has to go through the valuation process, send out notices, instead            
 of taxing these items at a flat rate.                                         
 Number 069                                                                    
 REPRESENTATIVE HANLEY states it also gives municipalities the                 
 flexibility to craft tax credits or deferrals to encourage business           
 development.  HB 263 is a flexibility bill, and it doesn't cost the           
 state anything.                                                               
 Number 079                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are any questions for Representative             
 Hanley.  The chairman comments it seems to be straightforward and             
 a reasonable approach.  The chairman asks if anyone in the audience           
 wishes to testify.                                                            
 Number 087                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to release HB 263 from the State                
 Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                            
 Number 089                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objections, orders HB 263 released from            
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 Number 094                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN brings up HB 280 (UNIFORM CUSTODIAL TRUST ACT) as              
 the next order of business before the State Affairs Committee.  The           
 chairman calls Karen Brand to testify.                                        
 Number 100                                                                    
 KAREN BRAND, Aide to Representative Moses states a trust is defined           
 as the care and management of property.  Ms. Brand says there are             
 four important aspects of HB 280.  They are, one, the trust will be           
 inexpensive to create; two, they are simple to create; three, under           
 the HB 280, the control of the property remains with the owner                
 until the time the owner dies or becomes incapacitated; four, they            
 are comprehensive.                                                            
 Number 147                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if the present version of the UCTA (Uniform               
 Custodial Trust Act) is the same as the version in the last                   
 MS. BRAND replies it is slightly different from the version that              
 passed the house in the last legislature and was amended in Senate            
 Labor & Commerce Committee.                                                   
 The chairman calls Art Peterson to testify.                                   
 Number 166                                                                    
 ART PETERSON, Uniform Law Commissioner, National Conference of                
 Commissioners on Uniform State Laws states the version currently              
 before the legislature is the same as the version that passed the             
 house, before it was amended by the Senate Labor & Commerce                   
 Committee.  This bill is supported by the AARP (American                      
 Association of Retired Persons).  A custodial trust allows the                
 person establishing the trust to retain a control that they                   
 wouldn't otherwise have under normal trust creation.  The great               
 advantage of this type of trust is its' flexibility.  A trustee               
 cannot be forced to accept a trust.  There are also several rules             
 set out for proper management of trusts by trustees.                          
 SENATOR TAYLOR makes a motion to release HB 280 from the State                
 Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                            
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objections, orders HB 280 released from            
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 Number 235                                                                    
 as the next order of business before the State Affairs Committee.             
 The chairman calls Laura Glaiser of the Division of Elections to              
 Number 240                                                                    
 LAURA GLAISER, Office of the Lieutenant Governor states SB 303 came           
 about after the president signed the National Voter Registration              
 Act of 1993.  While there was some thought that perhaps Alaska                
 would be exempt, it is not.  Ms. Glaiser and the Director of the              
 Division of Elections met with representatives from the Department            
 of Justice and the Federal Election Commission, and were assured              
 that Alaska was not exempt.  Even though the State of Alaska sends            
 out voter registration applications with the permanent fund                   
 dividend applications, we were told that was not enough to exempt             
 Alaska from the voter registration act.                                       
 The Department of Justice and the Federal Elections Commission                
 would not give the Division of Elections clear direction as to what           
 they wanted from the division, but assured us that they would sue             
 us if we did not comply.  SB 303 was drafted in order for the State           
 of Alaska to comply with the spirit of the National Voter                     
 Registration Act of 1993 without hurting the state.  We are                   
 increasing voter registration, as was the intent of the federal               
 act, and we are doing it in the least costly way possible.                    
 In SB 303, designated voter registration agencies are the Division            
 of Motor Vehicles and those agencies within the Department of                 
 Health & Social Services that administer food stamp programs,                 
 medicaid, WIC (Women with Infants & Children), and AFDC(Aid to                
 Families with Dependent Children).  The Division of Elections                 
 believes that since the state does distribute voter registration              
 applications with the permanent fund dividend applications, the               
 state will be able to pass muster by also providing voter                     
 registration applications through the previously mentioned                    
 Ms. Glaiser states the Division of Elections has also added the               
 Division of Municipal & Regional Assistance within the Department             
 of Community & Regional Affairs to the list of agencies required to           
 provide voter registration services.  The Division of Elections               
 believes this is a good agency to have offering voter registration            
 services because its' employees go out into rural communities; they           
 are bilingual, and so can assist those voters.                                
 Number 270                                                                    
 MS. GLAISER says other provisions in SB 303 bring the state into              
 compliance with federal voting rights act.  The federal act no                
 longer requires witnessing or notarization of a voter registration            
 applications, so the state has taken that out of its' requirements.           
 SB 303 also provides for basic cleaning up of state laws to comply            
 with the federal act.  Also required in the federal act is                    
 "noticing".  That is, the state can no longer purge a person from             
 the list of registered voters simply for not voting.  There have to           
 be several notices sent out to a person when that person does not             
 The Division of Elections has little "clicks" in its' system.  If             
 a person signs a petition, the division will consider that a                  
 "click", which will draw the person's name to the forefront of                
 voter registration lists.  So that person will not be in danger of            
 having their name purged from the list of registered voters.  The             
 division believes this will help keep district lists cleaner.  The            
 state had some concerns that if it did exactly what the federal act           
 mandated, the district lists would be very clouded and heavy.  What           
 the state will do, is roll the district lists back into the master            
 register, which won't affect the districts, and also will not                 
 disenfranchise a voter.                                                       
 Number 292                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Ms. Glaiser and states that having another              
 federal mandate placed on the state, when in his opinion, the state           
 already has a system that is as good, perhaps better than what is             
 required, offends him.  Another thing that bothers the chairman is            
 several years ago when a candidate submitted a change of address              
 form, it was not witnessed by someone at the time the candidate               
 submitted it.  The chairman thinks that not requiring the                     
 witnessing of voter registration applications opens the door up for           
 fraud.  The last point he has, is if you cannot purge the voter               
 registration list, the percentage of voter turn-out will decrease             
 in relation to the total number of registered voters.                         
 Number 330                                                                    
 MS. GLAISER states the federal government is not interested in                
 voter turn-out, only what states are doing to encourage voter                 
 registration, not voter participation.  It is true that this                  
 legislation will throw off what voter turn-out looks like.  But               
 that is something every state will suffer from.                               
 Number 343                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks what happens if the state does not pass and               
 implement SB 303.                                                             
 MS. GLAISER replies the state has been threatened with a lawsuit              
 from the Department of Justice.  The state's concern is, because              
 Alaska is a voting rights act state, everything the state does in             
 regards to voting has to be cleared through the Department of                 
 Justice.  That threat is valid enough for the administration to put           
 this piece of legislation together.                                           
 Number 355                                                                    
 SENATOR MILLER says it appears the Federal Voting Rights Act has              
 much worse consequences for the State of Alaska than for the State            
 of New York because Alaska is a voters' rights state under the                
 Civil Rights Act of 1964, which New York is not.  Senator Miller              
 faults Governor Sheffield's administration for not withdrawing                
 Alaska from the jurisdiction of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 when             
 it had the chance.  As a result, the State of Alaska has to have              
 everything cleared by the Justice Department.  Senator Miller                 
 realizes that passing SB 303 is something the legislature must do,            
 however, it is his feeling that the Federal Voting Rights Act of              
 1993 is unprovoked good from Washington, DC which will have a lot             
 of serious consequences for the State of Alaska and other states.             
 Number 368                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments he has bills pending in the Senate                    
 Judiciary Committee for federal mandates relating to child support            
 enforcement, federal highway funding, and motor voter legislation.            
 Federal mandates are what we deserve when we put people like the              
 Clintons in Washington, DC.  The state will continue to roll over             
 and act like a territory.  Whatever state rights we had have long             
 since been lost.  The next bill on the committee's agenda (SB 280)            
 is just one more piece of federal mandated crap to be stuffed down            
 our throats.  We ought to just ask congress to control our                    
 legislature for us, because they're controlling literally every               
 aspect of certain provisions within our laws.  The Alaska State               
 Legislature is nothing more than a rubber stamp for Congress.  We             
 are overseers on federal domain.  We might as well be honest enough           
 to go out and tell the public that, instead of knee-jerking around            
 and trying to convince them that they're actually human beings                
 within the United States of America with the same civil rights, the           
 same opportunities, that people have in other states.  We are                 
 nothing but a territory.  We never will be anything more than that.           
 This is simply another prime example of that.  Commenting on his              
 speech, Senator Taylor says, "One more speech, a lot of sound and             
 fury signifying nothing."                                                     
 Number 386                                                                    
 SENATOR MILLER asks when the state will again have the opportunity            
 to get off the Civil Rights Act of 1964.                                      
 MS. GLAISER answers she believes it is fifteen years from the last            
 opportunity, but she will check on that.                                      
 SENATOR MILLER thinks it is 1996 or 1997, but he fears this                   
 legislation would remove the state's opportunity to get off the               
 Civil Rights Act by lowering the percentage of eligible voters                
 participating in elections.                                                   
 Number 395                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR expresses concern that negative comments made today            
 in the committee hearing not be taken as umbrage by the Division of           
 Elections or the Lieutenant Governor's Office.  Senator Taylor                
 thanks the Division of Elections and the Lieutenant Governor's                
 Office for their work on SB 303.  He supports the bill at this                
 point, and thinks it is the best thing to have come out of the                
 Lieutenant Governor's Office since the Lieutenant Governor took               
 Number 405                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN thanks Ms. Glaiser for her testimony and calls the             
 next witness.                                                                 
 Number 406                                                                    
 JEFF BUSH, Attorney for the Alaska Civil Liberties Union thanks the           
 committee for scheduling SB 303 because it isn't often he gets to             
 testify in favor of something these days.  The American Civil                 
 Liberties Union, of which the Alaska Civil Liberties Union is a               
 branch, places national priority on this type of legislation.  The            
 committee may have hit the nail on the head in regarding that this            
 legislation may have impacts on a national basis that are very good           
 in terms of voter registration, but may in fact be irrelevant in              
 Alaska.  Mr. Bush says he is testifying only to say that this                 
 legislation may be good, if only to avoid litigation and additional           
 expense.  As Senator Taylor stated, SB 303 is probably the best for           
 which we can probably hope.  As a result, Mr. Bush encourages the             
 legislature to pass SB 303.  He thinks it is a good piece of                  
 legislation in terms of what is being required of the state,                  
 irrespective of the pluses and minuses of how the national                    
 legislation affects Alaska.                                                   
 Number 428                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks that SB 303 be moved from the Senate State                
 Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                            
 Number 429                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN, hearing no objection, orders SB 303 released from             
 committee with individual recommendations.                                    
 Number 431                                                                    
 PARK) as the final order of business before the Senate State                  
 Affairs Committee today.  The chairman calls representatives from             
 the Department of Law (LAW) and the Department of Natural Resources           
 (DNR) to testify.                                                             
 Number 439                                                                    
 CRAIG TILLERY, Assistant Attorney General, Department of Law states           
 SB 280 was introduced at the request of the governor and is                   
 supported by the governor.  SB 280 is also supported by the Borough           
 of Kodiak, the City of Kodiak, the Kodiak Chamber of Commerce, the            
 Kodiak Visitors' Association, most of the commercial fishing                  
 operations and organizations, tour operators, and all the citizens            
 of the Kodiak area that he has been in communication with.  The               
 reason SB 280 is before the legislature is the land that is                   
 outlined in yellow on the map that has been submitted to the                  
 committee was acquired through the Exxon Valdez Trustee Council               
 with restoration funds.  It was acquired as part of the Trustee               
 Council's imminent threat process.  Which means it was land that              
 had to be acquired quickly or something was going to happen that              
 would possibly make the land not available for sale at a later                
 Of the imminent threat process, there were only two parcels of land           
 that stood out as highly valuable for restoration purposes: those             
 were Kachemak Bay inholdings, and the Seal Bay portion of Afognak             
 Island.  As you know, Kachemak Bay has been purchased and is now              
 part of Kachemak Bay State Park.  The Trustee Council then moved on           
 this portion and acquired this section down here (Mr. Tillery                 
 points to map).                                                               
 Mr. Tillery states that this was originally proposed by the U.S.              
 Department of the Interior (DOI); they wished to acquire this land            
 for the DOI to connect to refuge properties on another area of                
 Afognak Island.  That was unacceptable to the State of Alaska and             
 the State Trustees; they did not want more federal land in that               
 area.  The state was able to prevail on that point with the help of           
 the Attorney General's Office and the Department of Law.  The                 
 United States then agreed to allow the state to have first shot at            
 acquiring this land.  The agreement is if the state purchases the             
 land and puts it into a state park designation within one year, the           
 state will acquire title to the land.  If that does not happen,               
 then the land will be conveyed to the United States Government.               
 The acquisition of this land by the state occurred on November 23,            
 1993, so the state has one year from that date to designate that              
 land a state park.  If it does not do so, that land will pass to              
 the United States Government.                                                 
 Number 470                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY states SB 280 provides for this land to be a park.  Mr.           
 Tillery refers to the map to explain which land will be included in           
 the park.  Marmot Island will not be included in the boundaries of            
 the park.                                                                     
 Number 483                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY states the trustees insisted that the existing uses of            
 the island be allowed.  Hunting, fishing, trapping, and limited               
 commercial use is required to be permitted.  However, limited                 
 commercial use must be consistent with restoration purposes.  What            
 is intended by "limited commercial use" is guiding operations and             
 those kinds of activities.  We want outfitters to be able to go in            
 there, we want hunting guides to be able to go in there, to the               
 extent it is permitted by the state boards of fisheries and game.             
 If this becomes state land, then those activities will be                     
 Mr. Tillery says it is supported by some citizens of Kodiak because           
 they like parks, while other citizens support it because they do              
 not want any more federal management of land in Alaska.  It has,              
 however, had pretty much unanimous support from citizens of Kodiak.           
 We believe SB 280 will be good for the environment, good for the              
 business community of Kodiak and the southern Kenai Peninsula, and            
 it will be good for the State of Alaska.                                      
 Number 495                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what valuation was placed on the timberlands.             
 MR. TILLERY responds that information can be found behind tab 12 in           
 the report submitted to the committee.  The chart on page 5 of tab            
 12 indicates that the timber value of the Seal Bay unit was                   
 appraised at about 36.5 million dollars.  Another portion of the              
 proposed Afognak Island State Park has virtually no timber value.             
 Another portion of the proposed state park has already been clear-            
 There are some roads through the land.  Some of those roads may be            
 necessary to get to timber operations outside park lands.  The                
 state is part of an existing road use agreement.  We are working              
 with Afognak Joint Ventures to insure that roads necessary to their           
 operations are kept available to them.  Otherwise, the sellers will           
 be required to comply with the Forest Practices Act and put roads             
 to bed that aren't needed for other purposes.                                 
 Number 514                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks about a phrase on page 5, Section 41.21.187,              
 subsection (b) which states, "Lawful use of a weapon in the Afognak           
 Island State Park shall be allowed except in areas that may be                
 closed for purposes of public safety by regulation by the                     
 commissioner of natural resources."  The chairman asks what                   
 instances Mr. Tillery can think of where an area might be closed to           
 lawful use of a weapon for purposes of public safety.                         
 MR. TILLERY says he would prefer to defer to the Department of                
 Natural Resources for that question.  He cannot think of many                 
 options where that would be needed, unless it was in an area where            
 shooting simply wouldn't be safe.                                             
 Number 522                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR says the only use that is intended to be stopped is            
 the use for which the land was selected in the first place.                   
 MR. TILLERY responds that when he spoke with the sellers of the               
 land they said the land was not traditional land and was not                  
 traditionally used by the natives, but was selected for business              
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments business purposes means timber harvesting             
 Number 524                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY says the native corporation told the state business               
 purposes.  The native corporation's view is that with this sale,              
 they will have accomplished their business purpose.  There is a               
 statement in the report to the committee from the native                      
 corporation stating the use for which the corporation intends to              
 use the money, which is sustained, local economic development,                
 rather than spending the money on essentially a lot of out-of-state           
 loggers to come and cut our land, put in round logs, and export               
 them to the far east.                                                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR says the native corporation could have easily built            
 mills on their own land; no one ever required them to sell all the            
 raw lumber to the far east.                                                   
 MR. TILLERY responds it's true it was not required, but that is               
 what was happening.                                                           
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why that was.                                             
 MR. TILLERY responds he does not know.                                        
 SENATOR TAYLOR says he does not know either, and most of the                  
 logging operations in Southeast went broke selling lumber to Japan.           
 MR. TILLERY states, in this instance, the native corporation has              
 acquired a substantial sum of money with which they hope to be able           
 to go through sustained development of lodges and other types of              
 similar activities.                                                           
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what damage was done to this land by the Exxon            
 Valdez oil spill.                                                             
 MR. TILLERY replies the shorelines were oiled and there were a                
 number of marbled murrelets, black oyster-catchers, and other                 
 animals that were killed.                                                     
 Number 538                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks how creating this park would restore this land.           
 Number 539                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY responds the scientists who have been advising the                
 state indicate that protecting the habitat, particularly of the               
 marbled murrelets and bald eagles, would allow those species to               
 regenerate their populations.  They nest in trees in the area.  In            
 addition, protecting this area puts less stress on sub-tidal and              
 inter-tidal biota.  There is an analysis under tab 8 that indicates           
 the potential for benefit is high for bald eagles and marbled                 
 murrelets, moderate for anadromous fish, black oyster-catchers,               
 harbor seals, harlequin ducks, and inter-tidal and sub-tidal biota.           
 SENATOR TAYLOR says that doesn't have a thing to do with the oil              
 Number 547                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY states those species listed in the analysis under tab             
 8 are the species that experts analyzing the oil spill indicated              
 suffered injury.  Most of them suffered significant population                
 level injuries.                                                               
 Number 549                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why the state is paying a price for this land             
 based upon logged values for an area that the people of Alaska will           
 never be able to utilize for logging.                                         
 Number 552                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY responds the state is paying a price based on log                 
 values because that is what the seller is willing to sell for.  The           
 seller would prefer to sell the land to the state, leave the trees            
 standing, they still make the money, and the animals are still                
 restored.  We believe everyone wins in this case except Bruce                 
 Babbitt (Secretary of the Interior); he loses, he doesn't get the             
 Number 559                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why Bruce Babbitt cares.  The land will be                
 locked up exactly the same by us as it will be by Bruce, doing                
 Bruce's work for him.  He will lock up the land exactly the same              
 way as the state.                                                             
 Number 560                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY replies that is not the case, and suggests the                    
 committee let Mr. Johannsen of DNR answer that question.  Mr.                 
 Johannsen can tell you how DNR intends to manage this, probably in            
 a way substantially different from the way Bruce Babbitt would                
 manage it.                                                                    
 Number 561                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR notes that on page four of the report the appraiser            
 states, "It is my opinion that the Kachemak Bay Timber was over-              
 MR. TILLERY states that comment is from the review appraiser from             
 DNR, not the appraiser of the land.  DNR's appraiser believed that            
 the timber had been over-valued.  What happened with the sale                 
 price, was the state paid 38.7 million dollars.  The total property           
 was appraised at 41 million dollars.  In addition to the Kachemak             
 Bay land, the state received Tonki Cape, essentially as a donation,           
 from the Seal Bay Timber Company, which was valued at about 11 or             
 12 million dollars.  So the total value of these lands is in excess           
 of the purchase price.                                                        
 Number 585                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR says he doesn't have further questions but he finds            
 it disappointing that native peoples of Alaska, who fought to                 
 accomplish a lands settlement, are selling their property.  Their             
 goal within that lands settlement was to acquire title to real                
 property, so that they could become self-sufficient.  Senator                 
 Taylor says he would really love to see what number of                        
 shareholders, who own this land, are who are currently on welfare.            
 How many of them actually have real year-round jobs?  He would like           
 to find out what the economy is really like out there.  How can               
 anyone in their right mind in this legislature justify taking land            
 away from private owners so that we can lock it up so no one can              
 earn a living on that land.  Excepting a few backpackers guiding              
 someone.  The native corporations selected this land for a purpose.           
 That purpose had something to do with their native rights.  Now               
 we're allowing them to sell the land back to the government.  The             
 government is buying them off of their land.  He says he agrees               
 with Mr. Tillery: it is just a win-win situation.  The native                 
 corporation is going to get all this money.  Senator Taylor wonders           
 if the natives in the area will end up like the natives in Kake,              
 where there is the highest suicide rate of any place in the U.S.              
 for two years.  He says the state will end up with more land that             
 can't be used, one more park.                                                 
 So the question is, do we run it, or do the feds?                             
 MR. TILLERY says that is the question.                                        
 Number 585                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks why he should spend taxpayer's dollars to                 
 continue to participate in this...                                            
 TAPE 94-12, SIDE B                                                            
 Number 593                                                                    
 ...waste of a resource that was selected so that human beings could           
 make a living.  If someone wants to waste resources, why don't we             
 let the federal government waste their resources on it.  Senator              
 Taylor says he doesn't think Mr. Johannsen has enough money in his            
 budget at DNR to even do a good job of emptying the garbage cans on           
 the Kenai Peninsula.  But Senator Taylor is supposed to believe               
 that somehow in the future his budget is going to be big enough to            
 take care of additional responsibilities?                                     
 Senator Taylor states he is not just sitting and looking at these             
 pieces of paper; he has hunted and walked the land and driven the             
 logging roads.  What Mr. Tillery is suggesting is a travesty.  Our            
 people on that committee (the trustees council?) should be removed            
 for even considering purchasing real property to lock it up because           
 some eco-looney is concerned about the oiled beaches.  How do oiled           
 beaches have anything to do with the right of the native americans            
 who own that land to earn a living on it?  Senator Taylor says it             
 is a pay-off to tie up Alaskan land.                                          
 Number 574                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there are any more questions of Mr. Tillery.           
 Hearing none, he asks Mr. Johannsen if he would like to take the              
 Number 568                                                                    
 NEIL JOHANNSEN, Director, Division of Parks & Outdoor Recreation,             
 Department of Natural Resources says he appreciates Mr. Tillery               
 warming up the committee before his opportunity to testify                    
 (laughter all around).  Mr. Johannsen states the Department of                
 Natural Resources (DNR) came late into the process of setting up a            
 state park on Afognak Island.  In his conversations with Mr.                  
 Tillery and then Attorney General Charlie Cole, Mr. Johannsen                 
 simply offered to accept the land if it was the legislature's                 
 desire that the land become part of a state park, because the                 
 option to do so seemed more desirable than turning the land over to           
 the federal government.  Mr. Johannsen says DNR came to the                   
 conclusion, after some discussions on the subject last summer, that           
 they would support SB 280.                                                    
 Number 556                                                                    
 MR. JOHANNSEN says DNR envisions managing the land passively.  DNR            
 is not in a position to actively manage the area.  It would be a              
 park with a small "p".  However, contrary to what one sees in much            
 of the federal Interior Department conservation units, state                  
 managed parks are open to any number of uses.  It would not be open           
 to timber harvests, but hunting, fishing, trapping, and some                  
 limited commercial activities would be permitted.                             
 Mr. Johannsen points out that the nearby Shuyak State Park, created           
 in 1984, has been a pretty successful unit.  DNR was able to build            
 five public use cabins in the park.  The cabins are full all summer           
 and get a lot of use in the fall and early winter by deer hunters.            
 Number 542                                                                    
 MR. JOHANNSEN says that, in answer to Chairman Leman's earlier                
 question about the control of firearms for public safety purposes,            
 refers to areas such as Totem Bight State Park, Harding Lake                  
 Recreation Area, and near public use cabins.  Public use cabins               
 have a quarter-mile radius around them in which discharge of                  
 firearms is prohibited for public safety purposes.  That is the               
 intent of the language on page 5, Section 41.21.187, subsection (b)           
 of SB 280.  Mr. Johannsen says he does not have much testimony to             
 add to what Mr. Tillery said, however, Mr. Johannsen hopes that at            
 some point DNR will be able to provide some basic recreation                  
 facilities in the park.                                                       
 Number 525                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Johannsen to clarify that the area is used            
 for deer hunters.                                                             
 MR. JOHANNSEN answers the Shuyak State Park has heavy use by deer             
 hunters, however, he does not know the wildlife situation on                  
 Afognak Island very well.  He does believe that there are quite a             
 few deer, elk, and bear in the Afognak area though.                           
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Mr. Johannsen if he knows that deer and elk are           
 alien species to that island.                                                 
 MR. JOHANNSEN replies he knows that fact.                                     
 SENATOR DUNCAN asks if the state transplanted those species to that           
 SENATOR TAYLOR responds the federal government transplanted those             
 species to that area long before the state had a fish & game                  
 department in the state that whined about that sort of crap.                  
 Number 520                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the state will do when the state finds a             
 large bug infestation in that area.                                           
 MR JOHANNSEN says he does not expect there would ever be much of a            
 beetle infestation problem in that area.  Although he is the park             
 director at DNR, all his degrees, including his master's degree,              
 are in forestry.  Afognak Island is mostly sitka spruce country and           
 a rainforest area.  Mr. Johannsen says he has quite a bit of forest           
 entomology in his past and does not expect that area to ever have             
 the infestation problem one sees on the Kenai Peninsula.                      
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if we should worry about allowing the same                
 people that are wandering around in Kachemak Bay State Park to                
 wander around in Afognak Island State Park, because they might                
 bring the bugs with them.  He is concerned that there is no                   
 indication SB 280 would allow proper silvicultural management in              
 that area.  So that if an infestation were to occur, DNR is                   
 precluded from using commercial timber harvesting or thinning as an           
 option to do stewardship on this park, which probably should be               
 Number 506                                                                    
 MR. JOHANNSEN says, with all due respect, that he disagrees.  DNR             
 has been actively cutting a lot of trees this winter on the Kenai             
 Peninsula in agreement with commercial logging operations for                 
 silvacultural purposes, so the previous statement isn't necessarily           
 true.  Mr. Johannsen says his biggest concern is that DNR wouldn't            
 be in a financial position to actively pursue silvacultural                   
 practices.  Mr. Johannsen reiterates that DNR would only be                   
 restricted from silvacultural practices in the Afognak Island area            
 for financial reasons, and not because of legal reasons.  Unless              
 perhaps DNR entered into an agreement with a logging operation to             
 handle silvacultural operations on the island.                                
 SENATOR TAYLOR states it is his understanding that in the agreement           
 signed relating to Afognak Island State Park, that would not be               
 MR. JOHANNSEN says he would have to defer ultimate judgement on               
 that question to Mr. Tillery.                                                 
 Number 491                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR says that is his concern, that if the state is to              
 take over this area for management purposes, it should be able to             
 properly manage this land.                                                    
 MR. JOHANNSEN states he came into the process at a fairly late                
 point, and is not entirely up on the conditions of the purchase               
 SENATOR TAYLOR says he is offended it is a given that timber                  
 harvesting is determined to be an adverse, negative thing to be               
 doing as concerns the other species.                                          
 Number 476                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY states the trustees council made a specific finding in            
 their resolution stating that existing laws and regulations are               
 intended under normal circumstances to protect resources from                 
 serious adverse affects.  However, restoration as a result of the             
 Exxon Valdez oil spill, in the view of the experts on the advisory            
 council, constitute a unique situation.  The advisory council feels           
 that, in this instance, it is appropriate to have a prohibition               
 against commercial timber operations.  Everyone on that council               
 believed that, under normal circumstances, logging operations can             
 occur, and can be of benefit to the land in some instances.                   
 Number 466                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR comments the only reason the state is spending money           
 for this land is to keep it from being logged.  How does one then             
 not draw the implication that logging is somehow an evil that we              
 must spend money to prevent.  Senator Taylor expresses concern over           
 Senator Zharoff representing Prince of Wales Island.  Logging                 
 enhanced the deer population of Prince of Wales Island.                       
 Number 445                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN says he shares some of Senator Taylor's concerns               
 about logging.  The chairman does not equate logging to be an evil            
 exacted upon the land.  If done properly, we can have logging that            
 is compatible with the natural state and the animals.  The chairman           
 thinks SB 280 eliminates the possibility of generating some new               
 wealth and being short sighted in not allowing timber harvest on              
 the island.  That is the chairman's main concern.  Senator Leman              
 states he would like to have the capability to enjoy the land,                
 while also being able to extract riches from it.                              
 Number 418                                                                    
 SENATOR ELLIS asks who was involved in SB 280.                                
 MR. JOHANNSEN responds the persons involved were Commissioners                
 Sandor and Rosier and Attorney General Cole.  The current trustees            
 are Commissioners Sandor and Rosier and Attorney General Botelho.             
 Number 408                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what happens to subsurface mineral rights.                
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN says that is the subject of an amendment Senator               
 Zharoff would like to offer.                                                  
 Number 404                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY states the subsurface rights are currently owned by the           
 Koniag Native Corporation.  Koniag wishes to sell the subsurface              
 rights to the trustees.  The trustees are interested in acquiring             
 those rights.  There do not appear to be any commercially valuable            
 subsurface resources.  For land management purposes the trustees              
 would like to consolidate the subsurface and surface estate into              
 one fee.  That is the subject of ongoing discussions with Koniag at           
 this moment.                                                                  
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks Mr. Tillery if there is any ideas as to what              
 the value of the subsurface rights would be.                                  
 MR. TILLERY replies there was an appraisal, and Koniag has made the           
 trustees an offer in the neighborhood of 2 million dollars.  The              
 offer made was 56 dollars an acre.  If the subsurface rights are              
 acquired, it would be done with trustee council funds.                        
 Number 382                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR says the trustees will pay 2 million dollars, and              
 then guarantee the federal government that we will prevent anyone             
 from utilizing the subsurface rights for any purpose.  We will make           
 sure that no evil mining operation will take place, because that              
 might upset some little eagle.  Senator Taylor is also concerned              
 with the amount of state funds that may be used in the future to              
 support Afognak Island State Park.  Do we really need another                 
 41,000 acres of passive parkland to manage?                                   
 Number 365                                                                    
 MR. JOHANNSEN says the state probably has about 40 units that are             
 passively managed.  That's not to say they do not get a fair amount           
 of use.  Distasteful as it might be to some people, Mr. Johannsen             
 says, SB 280 is really a state's rights issue.  Maybe, in terms of            
 long-term financial impact to the state, maybe the land should go             
 to the feds.  But the state does manage park areas differently than           
 the feds.  The state's management approach is more permissive, from           
 the standpoint of commercial operations and hunting and subsistence           
 activities.  Mr. Johannsen says it is superior to have DNR manage             
 the area rather than the U.S. Interior Department.                            
 Number 350                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks what the state is spending on Shuyak State Park           
 at this time.                                                                 
 MR. JOHANNSEN says the money the state makes from renting public              
 use cabins in Shuyak State Park pays for the management of the                
 park.  Mr. Johannsen thinks the state spends about 20,000 dollars             
 per year to manage Shuyak State Park.                                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if DNR is planning to build public use cabins             
 in Afognak Island State Park.                                                 
 MR. JOHANNSEN answers he would like to do that.  Public use cabins            
 would be a good use in that park.                                             
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks if that wouldn't be the only use of the park.             
 MR. JOHANNSEN replies he does not know, but the Seal Bay Area would           
 be an excellent place to have public use cabins.  Public use cabins           
 are certainly of benefit to the local economy.  He thinks Uyak Air            
 in Kodiak will tell anyone the five cabins in Shuyak State Park               
 have been great for their business.                                           
 Number 336                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN announces there is an amendment that has been                  
 distributed to the committee.  The chairman asks Senator Zharoff,             
 who suggested the amendment, to discuss the amendment.                        
 Number 334                                                                    
 SENATOR ZHAROFF says he has recently become aware of the                      
 negotiations to set up Afognak Island State Park.  The question now           
 is whether the legislature wants this land under state management             
 or federal management.  Senator Zharoff thinks a number of                    
 legislators who have both management systems in their district                
 could recognize the difference in management styles.  Before                  
 redistricting, Katmai National Refuge was in Senator Zharoff's                
 district and he received numerous complaints regarding the                    
 management there, particularly with the traditional users of the              
 area.  Federal rangers were callous to the needs of the local                 
 people which caused a tremendous amount of problems with hunting,             
 berry picking, and travelling through the refuge.  If the land must           
 be under either state or federal management, Senator Zharoff would            
 rather see it under state management.                                         
 Senator Zharoff states a question did come up over the subsurface             
 mineral rights.  The parties involved want to clarify that the                
 subsurface rights are part of the park system.  This amendment                
 would clarify that Koniag is giving up rights to subsurface as well           
 as surface area.                                                              
 Number 297                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN states he does not have a problem with the                     
 amendment, if that is all it does.  However, the chairman is                  
 concerned it creates a commitment by the state or the trustees to             
 pay for subsurface rights.  Chairman Leman wants someone to clarify           
 that this amendment will not commit the state or the trustees to              
 pay Koniag for subsurface rights in the area being considered for             
 Afognak Island State Park.  The chairman asks Mr. Tillery if this             
 amendment would create an obligation.                                         
 Number 290                                                                    
 MR. TILLERY says it is certainly not the intent of the amendment to           
 cause that obligation.  It would only clarify what is in SB 280               
 now, which is: if the state acquires the subsurface rights to that            
 area, then it is merged with the surface and is part of the park.             
 This amendment does not commit the state to pay Koniag for                    
 subsurface rights.  Mr. Tillery cannot conceive of the state paying           
 for subsurface rights.  The trustee council, however, may possibly            
 pay for it.  He cannot imagine the state appropriating money to               
 purchase the subsurface rights.                                               
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN restates his question: that passing this amendment             
 would not create an obligation, on anyone's part, to purchase the             
 subsurface rights.                                                            
 MR. TILLERY responds that is correct.                                         
 Number 281                                                                    
 SENATOR TAYLOR asks Senator Zharoff how many of his constituents              
 were employed and actively working at logging on these lands when             
 the Exxon Valdez Settlement Trustee's Council passed the resolution           
 shutting down logging in the area.                                            
 SENATOR ZHAROFF replies he does not know.  There were people                  
 working there though.                                                         
 SENATOR TAYLOR wants to know how many people have been put out of             
 work and had to go on welfare, unemployment, and food stamps in               
 order to protect the poor little marbled murrelet.                            
 Number 262                                                                    
 SENATOR DUNCAN asks to move the amendment for discussion.                     
 Number 259                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is any discussion.  Hearing none, the            
 chairman asks if there is any objection to adopting the amendment.            
 Hearing none, the chairman notes the amendment has been adopted.              
 The chairman asks if there is any further discussion and what the             
 pleasure of the committee might be regarding SB 280.                          
 Number 251                                                                    
 SENATOR DUNCAN makes a motion to release SB 280 from the Senate               
 State Affairs Committee with individual recommendations.                      
 Number 232                                                                    
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN asks if there is objection to the motion.  Hearing             
 objection, he asks the secretary to call the roll.                            
 Voting in favor of the motion are Senators Leman, Duncan, and                 
 Ellis.  Voting in opposition to the motion are Senators Miller and            
 Taylor.  The motion passes three yeas, two nays.                              
 CHAIRMAN LEMAN adjourns the Senate State Affairs Committee meeting            
 at 10:29 a.m.                                                                 

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