Legislature(2023 - 2024)BUTROVICH 205
05/12/2023 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
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| Audio | Topic |
|---|---|
| Start | |
| SJR12 | |
| HB104 | |
| SB69 | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| *+ | SJR 12 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| += | HB 104 | TELECONFERENCED | |
| += | SB 69 | TELECONFERENCED | |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
May 12, 2023
3:34 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Click Bishop, Co-Chair
Senator Cathy Giessel, Co-Chair
Senator Bill Wielechowski, Vice Chair
Senator Scott Kawasaki
Senator James Kaufman
Senator Forrest Dunbar
Senator Matt Claman
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
SENATE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 12
Supporting action by the United States Congress to authorize and
appropriate adequate funding for states that assume the dredge
and fill permitting program under Section 404 of the Clean Water
Act; and expressing the intention of the state to assume
jurisdiction over the program when funding is available.
- MOVED SJR 12 OUT OF COMMITTEE
COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTE FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 104(RES) AM
"An Act relating to salvage sales of timber, negotiated timber
sales for local manufacture of wood products, and expedited
timber sales; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD & HELD
SENATE BILL NO. 69
"An Act relating to geothermal resources; relating to the
definition of 'geothermal resources'; and providing for an
effective date."
- HEARD & HELD
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
BILL: SJR 12
SHORT TITLE: SECTION 404 CWA PERMIT PROGRAM
SPONSOR(s): SENATOR(s) BISHOP
05/12/23 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
05/12/23 (S) RES
05/12/23 (S) RES WAIVED PUBLIC HEARING NOTICE,RULE
23
05/12/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
BILL: HB 104
SHORT TITLE: TIMBER SALE: EXPEDITED/SALVAGE/NEGOTIATED
SPONSOR(s): REPRESENTATIVE(s) CRONK
03/08/23 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
03/08/23 (H) RES
03/20/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
03/20/23 (H) Heard & Held
03/20/23 (H) MINUTE(RES)
03/24/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
03/24/23 (H) Heard & Held
03/24/23 (H) MINUTE(RES)
04/03/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
04/03/23 (H) -- MEETING CANCELED --
04/14/23 (H) RES AT 1:00 PM BARNES 124
04/14/23 (H) Moved CSHB 104(RES) Out of Committee
04/14/23 (H) MINUTE(RES)
04/17/23 (H) RES RPT CS(RES) NEW TITLE 4DP 2NR
04/17/23 (H) DP: RAUSCHER, MCCABE, SADDLER, MCKAY
04/17/23 (H) NR: ARMSTRONG, PATKOTAK
04/20/23 (H) TRANSMITTED TO (S)
04/20/23 (H) VERSION: CSHB 104(RES) AM
04/21/23 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
04/21/23 (S) RES
04/24/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/24/23 (S) Heard & Held
04/24/23 (S) MINUTE(RES)
05/05/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
05/05/23 (S) **Streamed live on AKL.tv**
05/08/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
05/08/23 (S) Heard & Held
05/08/23 (S) MINUTE(RES)
05/12/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
BILL: SB 69
SHORT TITLE: GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES
SPONSOR(s): RULES BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR
02/15/23 (S) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS
02/15/23 (S) RES, FIN
04/12/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/12/23 (S) Heard & Held
04/12/23 (S) MINUTE(RES)
04/17/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
04/17/23 (S) Heard & Held
04/17/23 (S) MINUTE(RES)
05/12/23 (S) RES AT 3:30 PM BUTROVICH 205
WITNESS REGISTER
RANDY BATES, Director
Division of Water
Department of Environmental Conservation
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Responded to questions during the hearing on
SJR 12.
JULIE PACK, Assistant Attorney General
Environmental Section
Civil Division
Department of Law
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Responded to questions during the hearing on
SJR 12.
ANNE RITTGERS, Staff
Co-Chair Click Bishop
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented the explanation of changes from U
to D for HB 104.
JOHN BOYLE, Commissioner
Department of Natural Resources
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for the intent of HB 104.
HELGE ENG, State Forester and Director
Division of Forestry and Fire Protection
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Responded to questions during the hearing on
HB 104.
DAVE STANCLIFF, Staff
Representative Mike Cronk
Alaska State Legislature
Juneau, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Stated support for the Senate CS for HB 104
on behalf of the sponsor.
ACTION NARRATIVE
3:34:48 PM
CO-CHAIR CATHY GIESSEL called the Senate Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 3:34 p.m. Present at the call to
order were Senators Kawasaki, Dunbar, Kaufman, Wielechowski, Co-
Chair Giessel, and Co-Chair Bishop. Senator Claman joined the
committee during the course of the meeting.
SJR 12-SECTION 404 CWA PERMIT PROGRAM
3:35:39 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL announced the consideration of SENATE JOINT
RESOLUTION NO. 12 Supporting action by the United States
Congress to authorize and appropriate adequate funding for
states that assume the dredge and fill permitting program under
Section 404 of the Clean Water Act; and expressing the intention
of the state to assume jurisdiction over the program when
funding is available.
3:35:51 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP, speaking as the sponsor of SJR 12, explained
that the resolution states support for the Department of
Environmental Conservation's (DEC) efforts to assume the dredge
and fill permitting program under Section 404 of the Clean Water
Act, and urges Congress to appropriate the funds for states that
have assumed primacy. He clarified that the Environmental
Protection Agency (EPA) would still retain veto power under
404(c) as well as dredge and fill permitting authority for
federal waters of the US.
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL noted who was available to answer questions.
3:37:50 PM
SENATOR KAWASAKI asked if the state would have permitting
authority for state waters but not for Section 10 waters under
the 404 assumption.
3:38:30 PM
RANDY BATES, Director, Division of Water, Department of
Environmental Conservation (DEC), Juneau, Alaska, stated support
for SJR 12. He reported that the department was working with the
congressional delegation, the funding agencies at the Army Corps
of Engineers (Corps) and the Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA), and representative organizations the state belongs to as
it look3 at state primacy of the Section 404 program. He agreed
with the sponsor that EPA will retain oversight authority over a
state-run 404 program and the Corps will retain permitting
authority in the non-assumable Section 10 waters. The state will
assume permitting authority in the assumable Section 10 waters.
He deferred to Julie Pack to answer Senator Kawasaki's question.
3:40:12 PM
JULIE PACK, Assistant Attorney General, Environmental Section,
Civil Division, Department of Law, Anchorage, Alaska, confirmed
Mr. Bates' statement that once the state assumes the Section 404
program, the Corps will retain authority over the non-assumable
Section 10 waters.
SENATOR KAWASAKI asked, if the state were to assume 404 primacy,
whether permit applicants would be faced with working with both
EPA and the state when the waterway has both Section 10 and non-
Section 10 waters.
MR. BATES responded that it was DEC's intention to provide the
applicant with an option in that circumstance. They could go
through the Army Corps of Engineers for the entire project or
they could get a permit from the Corps for the part of the
project that's under the Corps' jurisdiction and get a state 404
permit for the part of the project that is inland of the
retained waters boundary.
SENATOR KAWASAKI asked under what circumstance an applicant who
is interfacing two separate waterbodies would forego working
with the state and opt to work only with the federal government.
MR. BATES cited the example of a project that has just a sliver
of state waters and the rest is non-assumable Section 10 waters.
He continued that for a project that is substantially in state-
assumed waters or that has some compensatory mitigation
requirements that the state could manage more appropriately, the
applicant may choose to bifurcate the review process.
3:45:02 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL opened public testimony on SJR 12; finding
none, she closed public testimony.
3:45:26 PM
At ease
3:47:08 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL reconvened the meeting and noted that there was
an amendment for the committee to consider.
3:47:19 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI moved to adopt Amendment 1 to SJR 12, work
order 33-LS0846\A.1, on behalf of Senator Claman.
33-LS0846\A.1
Radford
5/12/23
AMENDMENT 1
OFFERED IN THE SENATE BY SENATOR CLAMAN
TO: SJR 12
Page 1, line 3, following "Act;"
Insert "supporting federal funding to locate in
the state a United States Environmental Protection
Agency office that serves the state;"
Page 2, following line 10:
Insert new material to read:
"WHEREAS the United States Environmental
Protection Agency office that serves the state is
located in Seattle, Washington, which is 1,448 miles
away from Anchorage, the state's largest city; and"
Page 2, following line 27:
Insert new material to read:
"FURTHER RESOLVED that the Alaska State
Legislature supports federal funding for the United
States Environmental Protection Agency office that
serves the state to be located in the state; and be
it"
3:47:24 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL objected for purposes of discussion.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI qualified that he was offering the
amendment for Senator Claman who was presenting a bill in
another committee. He read Amendment 1 and suggested the
department articulate its position on the amendment.
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL asked Mr. Bates to comment on Amendment 1.
3:48:11 PM
MR. BATES stated that DEC doesn't object to Amendment 1, but
believes that it may be redundant as there already is a district
office in the federal building in Anchorage for EPA. It is
staffed by Region 10, which includes Alaska, Washington, Oregon,
and Idaho and that office interacts with Washington DC on a
regular basis. He also noted that at one time there was a
district office for EPA in the federal building in the capital
[city].
3:49:00 PM
SENATOR DUNBAR asked whether the EPA office for Alaska was ever
located in Seattle.
MR. BATES said he wasn't aware of a district office that was
outside the state, but there is a significant Region 10 EPA
office in Seattle and DEC works with that office regularly.
CO-CHAIR BISHOP asked him to clarify that the EPA district
office was in the federal building in the Capital City of
Juneau, not the state capitol building in Juneau.
MR. BATES said that's correct; EPA district offices are located
in federal buildings.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked how many EPA employees were in the
Anchorage district office.
3:50:23 PM
MR. BATES said he didn't know the exact number but he was aware
of several attorneys, some staff, and some higher-level
positions that were counters to his supervisor.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what percentage of the work is being
done in Anchorage as opposed to Seattle.
MR. BATES said he didn't know but he would follow up with EPA
and provide an answer.
3:51:01 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI withdrew Amendment 1 and asked Mr. Bates to
provide a response as quickly as possible.
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL stated that Amendment 1 has been withdrawn.
3:51:30 PM
SENATOR KAWASAKI asked what the impact has been on the general
fund since the state assumed the Section 402 program about 12
years ago.
3:52:04 PM
MR. BATES said the Section 402 program for wastewater discharge
permitting was implemented in phases from 2008 through 2012. The
state currently receives about $2.6 million in federal support
and the state has been providing about $1.5 million from the
general fund, which is a little more than the required 25
percent match, and the permit fees bring another $1.5 million.
In total, the 402 program operates on about $5.5 million.
DEC estimates that the funding for the 404 program will be $4.9
million in FY2024 and $4.7 million in subsequent years. This
includes 32 staff. Current funding for the 404 program would
come from the general fund (GF) and the resolution requests
federal funding to offset some of the GF. Building the permit
fees into the 404 program will offset the general fund
requirement much like it currently does in the 402 program.
3:53:59 PM
At ease
3:54:09 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL reconvened the meeting. Finding no further
questions, she solicited a motion.
3:54:19 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP moved to report SJR 12, work order 33-LS0846\A,
from committee with individual recommendations and attached zero
fiscal note.
3:54:33 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL found no objection and SJR 12 was reported from
the Senate Resources Standing Committee.
3:54:36 PM
At ease
HB 104-TIMBER SALE: EXPEDITED/SALVAGE/NEGOTIATED
3:56:43 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP reconvened the meeting and announced the
consideration of CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 104(RES) am "An Act
relating to salvage sales of timber, negotiated timber sales for
local manufacture of wood products, and expedited timber sales;
and providing for an effective date."
He noted there was a Senate committee substitute for the
committee to consider.
3:56:52 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL moved to adopt the Senate committee substitute
(SCS) for HB 104, work order 33-LS0474\D, as the working
document.
3:57:04 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP objected for purposes of discussion.
3:57:47 PM
ANNE RITTGERS, Staff, Co-Chair Click Bishop, Alaska State
Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, presented the explanation of
changes from U to D for HB 104.
SUMMARY
1. SRES CS \D simplifies and expedites the negotiated
timber sale process.
2. SRES CS \D retains the usual Department of Natural
Resources (DNR) public processes to meet the
constitutional requirement to give public notice for
disposals of natural resources:
Article VIII, Section 10. Public Notice. No
disposals or leases of state lands, or interests
therein, shall be made without prior public
notice and other safeguards of the public
interest as may be prescribed by law.
3. SRES CS \D retains the local manufacturing
requirement for negotiated sales; if logs are to be
sold as export (not manufactured locally), timber
sales must be sold competitively. This protects
local manufacturers' advantage to negotiate timber
sales, since they create local jobs and contribute
more to the local and state economy than a company
focusing on export sales.
4. SRES CS \D creates the requirement for a DNR report
to the Legislature during the 2024 session
describing each timber sale in detail and how long
they took to implement. It also requires DNR to
describe timber sales that did not occur because of
loss of value and asks for information that would
increase timber sales and improve timber sale
procedures.
CO-CHAIR BISHOP stated his intention to adopt the Senate CS,
hear from the commissioner, and hold the bill in committee over
the Interim.
3:59:00 PM
JOHN BOYLE, Commissioner, Department of Natural Resources,
Anchorage, Alaska, stated that DNR supports the intent of HB
104. He's talked to small harvesters and manufacturers of local
wood products to get a sense of how well DNR has been performing
in the area getting timber out to sale and whether the existing
statutes, regulations, and procedures are apposite to what the
industry needs. He said DNR recognizes it needs to take a hard
look at how it is managing and interacting with the industry
that is utilizing state forested land. He reminded the committee
that last year DNR brought in about $1.5 million from timber
sales statewide. Over that same time, the department spent $120
million putting out wildfires, which is indicative of an
imbalance. He said countries in similar latitudes that have
similar climates and similar forests have timber industries that
produce board feet of timber an order of magnitude larger than
Alaska, which suggests there is more that Alaska can do in this
space.
He opined that a small step is to streamline and simplify some
of the processes. HB 104 works to that end by lengthening the
terms of the lease sales for operators. This will make it easier
to access financing to produce more lumber and grow their
businesses. He talked about the unmet demand he's seen for local
lumber and the department's desire to make small changes to help
operators meet that demand.
COMMISSIONER BOYLE stated that he had already tasked the
Division of Forestry and Fire Protection to take a holistic look
at the existing framework of regulations and statutes to find
ways to better monetize state forests and grow the timber
industry in the state. This will take active forest management
which includes the carbon bill and more aggressive replanting
after wildfires with higher quality merchantable timber. The
idea is to close the current monetary imbalance between timber
sales and the cost of fighting wildfires.
COMMISSIONER BOYLE continued that HB 104 enables DNR to offer
timber at less than appraised value when it will benefit
communities, help grow the industry, and bring revenue to the
state. He said he looks forward to bringing a more comprehensive
package to the committee next session.
4:05:49 PM
SENATOR DUNBAR referenced Section 5 of the SCS that repeals the
section on base price and Section 4 that authorizes the sale of
timber at less than the appraised value; he expressed concern
about creating a monopsony, which is a market situation in which
there is only one buyer. He suggested that it would be easy for
some commissioner in the future to cut a sweetheart deal with a
manufacturer that is far below the appraised value. He asked the
commissioner for his thoughts and whether some sideboards or a
floor could be added to protect the state from that sort of
behavior.
COMMISSIONER BOYLE replied that he didn't see that as a great
risk to the state given that the current revenue from timber
sales is less than $1.5 million per year. He relayed his belief
that the more DNR can promote and incent local operators, the
better it will be for the state even if it isn't getting top
dollar for its timber in all instances. The offsetting benefit
is the potential for such sales to increase investment and
employment opportunities and lower the cost of building supplies
in small rural communities that are off the main Railbelt. He
added that the intent is to ultimately grow the revenue share
and have high quality trees to sell in the quantities needed to
attract significant investors who will produce more commercial
amounts of lumber in the state.
4:10:04 PM
SENATOR KAUFMAN commented that the total value calculation of
the timber will include the reduction in fire risk once the dead
and standing fuels are removed. The timber is worth nothing left
in situ but it is a liability if it ignites in a wildfire.
4:10:53 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP commented that if the state is only receiving
$1.5 million/year in timber revenue, there was a lot of room to
grow the industry to provide revenue for the treasury. He
described the vibrant timber-based economies in Southeast
communities when he was growing up and noted that in the 1960s,
Ketchikan was the third largest city in the state. He thanked
the sponsor for raising the bar to grow the timber industry.
Making it possible for DNR to process sales faster and have more
flexibility to evaluate the kinds of sales will provide untold
opportunities. He described the requirement in the bill for DNR
to provide an annual report to the legislature as valuable.
4:13:04 PM
CO-CHAIR GIESSEL said she and her husband burn beetle-killed
wood and it's not unusual to find live beetles in the house. She
asked Mr. Eng how the people who harvest and burn this wood can
keep from spreading the infestation.
4:13:55 PM
SENATOR CLAMAN joined the committee.
4:14:03 PM
HELGE ENG, State Forester and Director, Division of Forestry and
Fire Protection, Department of Natural Resources (DNR),
Anchorage, Alaska, stated that spreading beetle infestations is
always a concern but it's important to understand that the
beetle is endemic so background levels are always present.
Avoiding the spread of the beetle is best done by maintaining
healthy forests that are able to resist beetle epidemics. He
also advocated for burning firewood as close to the source as
possible.
4:15:12 PM
SENATOR DUNBAR pointed out that as currently drafted, the report
to the legislature that is outlined in Section 6 of the Senate
CS is not ongoing. He said some of his concern relating to the
lack of a floor on these sales would be alleviated if the report
were recurring. Acknowledging that ongoing reports are time
consuming and costly, he asked about the possibility of a
revenue-based trigger provision for the report.
COMMISSIONER BOYLE said he didn't believe DNR would object to a
revenue-based trigger provision for the reports.
CO-CHAIR BISHOP opined that Section 6 needed work in several
areas.
4:17:54 PM
SENATOR KAUFMAN suggested the drafters add an inflation
adjustment measure to the reporting requirement. He also asked
whether kiln dried lumber produced by this process would be
better at attenuating the beetle infestation than transporting
the timber as firewood.
COMMISSIONER BOYLE deferred the question to Mr. Eng.
4:18:55 PM
MR. ENG stated that kiln drying isn't required to kill the
beetles; the beetles also die when the wood is air dried.
4:19:22 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP removed his objection; finding no further
objection, the Senate CS for HB 104 was adopted.
He invited Mr. Stancliff to provide closing comments.
4:19:40 PM
DAVE STANCLIFF, Staff, Representative Mike Cronk, Alaska State
Legislature, Juneau, Alaska, stated that the sponsor views the
Senate CS as a negotiated compromise with the administration and
the committee. The goal is to turn a withering timber industry
into a vibrant industry. The administration has assured the
sponsor that the division will perform more quickly and
efficiently as outlined in the report to the legislature.
4:21:20 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP held HB 104 in committee.
SB 69-GEOTHERMAL RESOURCES
4:21:27 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP announced the consideration of SENATE BILL NO.
69 "An Act relating to geothermal resources; relating to the
definition of 'geothermal resources'; and providing for an
effective date."
He noted that public testimony was held open during the last
meeting.
4:21:36 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP asked if anyone wished to testify on SB 69;
finding none, he closed public testimony.
4:21:48 PM
CO-CHAIR BISHOP held SB 69 in committee.
4:24:56 PM
There being no further business to come before the committee,
Co-Chair Bishop adjourned the Senate Resources Standing
Committee meeting at 4:24 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| SJR 12 Sponsor Statement v A 05.12.23.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
SJR 12 |
| SJR 12 Support Document - DEC 404 FAQ.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
SJR 12 |
| SJR 12 Support Document - DEC 404 Assumption Cheat Sheet.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
SJR 12 |
| SJR 12 Fiscal Note 05.12.23.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
SJR 12 |
| HB 104 CS WORKDRAFT Version D 05.12.23.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
HB 104 |
| SJR 12 Amendment #1.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
SJR 12 |
| HB 104 Explanation of Changes Ver. U.A to Ver. D 05.12.23.pdf |
SRES 5/12/2023 3:30:00 PM |
HB 104 |