Legislature(2015 - 2016)BUTROVICH 205
03/09/2016 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
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| Audio | Topic |
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| Start | |
| Confirmation Hearings | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
| + | TELECONFERENCED | ||
| + | TELECONFERENCED |
ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 9, 2016
3:31 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Cathy Giessel, Chair
Senator Mia Costello, Vice Chair
Senator John Coghill
Senator Peter Micciche
Senator Bert Stedman
Senator Bill Stoltze
Senator Bill Wielechowski
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
CONFIRMATION HEARINGS
Board of Fisheries
Alan Cain - Anchorage, Alaska
Robert Ruffner - Soldotna, Alaska
- CONFIRMATIONS ADVANCED
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
No previous action to record
WITNESS REGISTER
ALAN CAIN, Appointee
Alaska Board of Fisheries
Anchorage, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as appointee.
ROBERT RUFFNER, Appointee
Alaska Board of Fisheries
Soldotna, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified as appointee.
LYNN WHITMORE
Anchor Point, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of confirming Mr. Cain
and Mr. Ruffner.
WES HUMBYRD
Homer, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in opposition to confirming Mr. Cain
and in support of confirming Mr. Ruffner.
RICHARD MCGAHAN
Nikiski, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Requested careful consideration for Board of
Fisheries appointees.
WILLIAM PETERSON, Administrator
New Stuyahok Tribal Council
New Stuyahok, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in support of Mr. Ruffner.
JIMMY HURLEY
Ekwok, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Encouraged representation of Bristol Bay
fishing interests on the Board of Fisheries.
GEORGE PIERCE
Kasilof, Alaska
POSITION STATEMENT: Spoke in support of having
biologists/scientists on the Board of Fisheries.
ACTION NARRATIVE
3:31:04 PM
CHAIR CATHY GIESSEL called the Senate Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 3:31 p.m. Present at the call to
order were Senators Stedman, Coghill, Stoltze, Wielechowski, and
Chair Giessel. Senators Costello and Micciche joined shortly
thereafter.
^Confirmation Hearings
Confirmation Hearings
Alaska Board of Fisheries
3:31:14 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL announced confirmation hearings for the Governor's
appointees to the Board of Fisheries. She invited Alan Cain to
tell the committee about himself and why he wants to serve on
the Board of Fisheries.
3:31:39 PM
SENATOR COSTELLO joined the committee.
3:32:14 PM
ALAN CAIN, Alaska Board of Fisheries appointee, Anchorage, said
there are two or three reasons why he wants to serve on the
board. He said he has observed the board providing a wonderful
service to the state, and he has been involved in protecting,
enforcing, and helping managers in managing Alaska's fish. He is
proud of that service and wants to apply it to the board
process. He said he has seen many groups and individuals come
before the board with a lot of differences, and by listening
very carefully, evaluating needs, and referring to the
constitution and applicable laws, "we can usually find an
agreeable solution to most things." He said he will be happy to
be part of that.
3:32:26 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE joined the committee.
3:33:29 PM
SENATOR STOLTZE asked if he was a DNR [Alaska Department of
Natural Resources] contract employee in the Knik area.
MR. CAIN said yes; he was hired to establish the peace officer
and law enforcement program. He said he provided training and
assisted with the regulations over the years.
SENATOR STOLTZE said he did a good job setting the stage for
[the program].
3:34:48 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked for Mr. Cain's thoughts on how to
solve Cook Inlet issues, like dipnetting, and if there should be
any priority users. He asked about curtailments of emergency
openings in Cook Inlet when fish runs are low, or if dipnetting
and sport fishing should be curtailed first.
MR. CAIN said he has no preferences other than the legal
precedent set forth in Title 16 of Alaska's statutes, which
gives a subsistence preference. He noted that he sat through
"five different cycles of Cook Inlet" and is very familiar with
the user groups involved and the passions they have. He said
that things change, like user groups becoming more efficient in
harvesting, and the board members need to listen very carefully
to all input. The Alaska Department of Fish and Game (ADF&G) has
a tremendous amount of management experience and has done an
excellent job of managing "that river" and the adjacent river
systems. Things are in reasonable condition at this time, he
added, so big changes have to be looked at very carefully. There
will always be minor adjustments, he said, and he is open to
listening to each user group.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he agreed with the conservation
corridor established for the "Mat-Su" recently.
MR. CAIN answered yes.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there are any salmon management
plans that are not working.
MR. CAIN said that he does not feel strongly that any management
plan is not working, but adjustments and improvements are always
needed. He assumes that ADF&G and the user groups will have
suggestions for the board's Cook Inlet fishery cycle, he said,
and he will take a look at each one very carefully.
3:38:27 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI noted that the Kenai and Kasilof personal-
use fisheries have increased lately, and he asked if Mr. Cain
supports any proposals that would institute fees, limit boat
use, or reduce the number of fish that can be taken.
MR. CAIN said he does not oppose those options; all options need
to be considered carefully.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he agrees with the drift fleet
closures so that Southcentral dipnetters can fish "usually
Friday through Saturday or Sunday."
MR. CAIN answered yes; that has been an effective way to
increase the take in the river for personal use.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI noted that there was an increase in the
number of fish that could be taken on the Copper River so that
it matches Kenai River limits, which many people think is a good
thing, but because there are limited places to fish, people are
spending a lot more time dipnetting, so it may have had some
negative impacts.
MR. CAIN said any change has to be reevaluated year after year.
The board's cyclical schedule provides a chance to assess the
impacts of any change, he stated.
3:41:04 PM
SENATOR STOLTZE asked about limitations on personal-use
fisheries, since Mr. Cain said he is open to those restrictions.
MR. CAIN answered that he is open to discussion on any changes.
User groups suggest many changes every year, he said, and for
the Cook Inlet cycle there are usually about 500 proposals for
the Board of Fisheries to consider. He will listen, he said, and
he is not interested in disenfranchising any individuals or
groups. His goal is to allocate as equally as can be.
SENATOR STOLTZE said there is not the capacity "to put an equal
number up the river as that are harvested by that ever-efficient
drift fleet." He said the smaller user groups are personal and
sport fishers, and he asked what limits Mr. Cain is not opposed
to for "the Goliath" drift fleet.
MR. CAIN said there have been many ideas from different user
groups to limit one another and even themselves, and he
considers some to be extreme and others reasonable. The seven
people on the board are there to evaluate every proposal as
fairly as possible and come up with equitable solutions. In Cook
Inlet, there are lot of people interested in harvesting salmon,
and sometimes the debates become very passionate and emotional.
The board needs to calmly listen to all of the suggestions and
sort out the best for that cycle.
3:45:06 PM
SENATOR STOLTZE said that answer is appropriate, and he does not
expect him to come in aligned one way or the other. Any time the
system is fair, Senator Stoltze's constituents benefit, he said,
because they cannot afford to hire lobbyists. Fair is about all
they can expect from the process that is often driven by ADF&G.
MR. CAIN remarked that he has seen well-organized user groups
with very strong voices and others who are more subdued, and he
has watched board members listen to both. Listening carefully is
the key to finding a fair solution, he stated.
SENATOR MICCICHE said if there is not a transparent, public
process, it is tough to bring people together. He asked Mr. Cain
how his service can improve public confidence, because both
sides often feel like they are not heard, whether they are or
not.
MR. CAIN said that the board made a huge improvement by going to
the committee process, because the previous model of taking
public testimony for three to five minutes and going straight to
deliberations didn't give board members the information they
needed. Public confidence improved dramatically, he said, and
each individual or group can speak before those committees,
which takes more days, but "I've watched very polarized factions
move a little bit closer together when they hear each other's
opinions and explanations about effects on families and
livelihoods …."
3:47:32 PM
MR. CAIN said people feel that they have been heard, and the new
process really helps the discussion move along. He stated that
he wished there was more time for the public process, but he
supports the new committee process.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI opined that the biggest management tool "is
to send the commercial fleet out … and have more emergency
openers." It seems like the last resort is to allow sport users
to take more fish and dipnetters to go longer hours, and he
asked if Mr. Cain would be open to changing the management of
over-escapement to allow more sport fishing and dipnetting.
MR. CAIN said he would be open to that and any suggestions, "and
any way we can more equitably spread the harvest between user
groups, I would be open to listening to." He acknowledged that
the commercial fleet is very efficient when there are dramatic
spikes in returns to the river, but there are other ways, and
some are difficult to manage but not impossible.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked for his thoughts on the commercial
setnet fishery. It has been closed for numerous years, and
[setnetters] are concerned about that, and sport users are
concerned about the impact on Kenai Chinook salmon runs.
MR. CAIN said it is an awkward issue because of the potential
for harvest of king salmon returning to the Kenai and Kasilof
rivers and the upper reaches of Cook Inlet. "They're efficient
at doing that, and that's been one of the major reasons that
they had to take the concessions that they have," he stated. He
opined that they are a valid and historic user group that needs
careful consideration, but he has no specific suggestions on how
to minimize the king salmon harvest. He said ADF&G and the
setnet fleet have made good progress.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if he would recommend having areas
limited to only drift boats on the Kenai River.
3:51:12 PM
MR. CAIN answered that such areas could be considered, but he
would need to know the specifics. Typically, users have shared
areas because fish are where they are. He said he would like to
hear from ADF&G on its ability to manage the fishery.
SENATOR STOLTZE said Cook Inlet has a mixed-stock fishery, and
he asked if there should be a focus on "more discrete stock
management."
MR. CAIN said he is not familiar with the most recent genetic
studies on where fish run, especially for the streams in Upper
Cook Inlet. He said he does not know "if there's been any big
increases in patterns of where those fish are located or not,
and, probably, if they were able to discover that, the first
thing you could count on is … change." He stated that he
supports an equitable distribution of fish into all streams that
fulfills the constitutional mandate to sustain fisheries.
Additional genetic research on harvest and migration patterns
can help determine where fisheries can be open and where
corridors should allow for passage, he added.
SENATOR STOLTZE stated that his question was about conservation
of the species when harvesting a mixed stock. He wants to make
sure fish get back to the right rivers, and it is a difficult
prospect, he said. Some political entities are resistant to
getting information and do not want the question to come up
about discreet stock management, he stated, because the system
is now advantageous to "those who do the mass harvests." He said
the Mat-Su Valley led the effort to analyze genetics, but it was
resisted by the status quo. Pure frustration might drive an
[Endangered Species Act] lawsuit, he added. His constituency is
the fish, "because we don't have a constituency that can use
them if we don't have the fish."
MR. CAIN said mixed stock management is difficult all over the
state. The board will consider every factor and may have to err
on the side of conservation to not deplete any particular run.
3:56:59 PM
SENATOR MICCICHE noted that the Board of Fisheries meets in
specific areas; however, some of "those interceptions" occur in
other areas. He asked how that system can be improved. He said
that Alaskans tend to be concerned about their closest neighbors
instead of the other fisheries that may be involved. How can
there be "more of a relationship between the different areas,
particularly when we have a stock of concern on how far out we
should consider the best management practices for that species?"
MR. CAIN said it is a very challenging area. He pointed to the
difficulties between the Area M harvesters on the [Alaska]
Peninsula and the Yukon and Kuskokwim area harvesters, where the
river groups feel strongly that a lot of interceptions are
happening. He said the board has tried several strategies, and
he does not have any new ones to suggest, but he feels strongly
that more scientific genetic studies are needed at all points of
interception. The board needs to be very careful about how they
support management plans for mixed harvests, he stated.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked what factors led to the decrease in
salmon returns to [the Matanuska River and Susitna River Basin],
and what can be done to increase them.
MR. CAIN said original escapement, harvests, predation, global
warming, water column temperatures, and other ocean conditions
influence returns. The board needs to focus on the things it can
control, he stated.
CHAIR GIESSEL announced that the next order of business would be
the confirmation hearing for Robert Ruffner.
4:01:40 PM
ROBERT RUFFNER, Alaska Board of Fisheries appointee, Soldotna,
said he graduated from the University of Minnesota in geology,
focusing on river mechanics. He studied numerical modeling and
statistics, which will be helpful to the Board of Fisheries. He
said he worked for a conservation organization that was
balanced, and it worked hard to seat board members from all user
groups. It worked on habitat issues, and he is familiar with
user groups that "use some of the habitat issues as a sword
against another group." He said he just resigned from his
position there, but he is still working for the organization in
a very limited capacity on a restoration project along the
Tesoro pipeline route.
4:04:16 PM
MR. RUFFNER said he has served on the Kenai Peninsula Borough
planning commission and a road [service] board. He wants to
serve on the Board of Fisheries because he wants his kids to
have the experiences he had as a child. He noted that there is a
focus on Cook Inlet, but the board has a tremendous job with a
multi-billion-dollar industry working across the entire state,
and one reason he wants to serve is to learn more about other
parts of the state. He said he will bring the proper temperament
to hear the various user groups. It is important to listen to
the impassioned people with concerns and issues and try to bring
people together to find the best solution. Others tell him he
has that skill, he said.
4:07:48 PM
MR. RUFFNER said his science and statistical background will be
helpful. Understanding how numerical models are derived is
important, and he hopes to illuminate the sophisticated modeling
techniques used in fishery and economic analysis. He added that
he has a strong commitment to the public process. Alaska's
process is unique in the world, and he strongly believes in the
"AC" process and having proposals brought forward to a body that
can arbitrate them with neutrality and transparency. He will
always state the reasons for his votes, he added.
4:08:40 PM
SENATOR STOLTZE said he is more open to Mr. Ruffner now that he
is applying for a different seat. He asked him if he wants to
revise anything from last year's testimony, particularly with
regard to his commitment to the board action on corridors. Has
anything changed?
MR. RUFFNER said he put a number of points on the record, and he
did not see any fishery that was carried out this year that
would lead him to change any of his positions. He noted that
there was a good showing of coho in the valley and on the Kenai.
SENATOR STOLTZE said there is no statutory Kodiak seat on the
board, and Mr. Ruffner is applying for what has traditionally
been a commercial seat for Bristol Bay. Senator Stoltze said
that Mr. Ruffner spoke of only two days of commercial [fishing]
experience, but "I suspect you've probably tried to bone up …
you probably have broader knowledge." He said this is more of a
commercial seat, and he is comfortable with that designation,
but he asked Mr. Ruffner if he has a broader involvement or
understanding that might make him more qualified for this seat.
MR. RUFFNER said he fished two years in the inlet [then
corrected himself later and said he had fished for two days],
but last year he did personal-use fishing. He said he
understands the fisheries and how they operate, particularly
salmon. He will have to study up on other species, like crab and
herring, and he has the time to do that.
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI commented that he is glad to see him back
at it; "last year was rough, and it had nothing to do with you.
It was just simply over the seat designation." He added that Mr.
Ruffner is immensely qualified.
4:13:57 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL opened public testimony.
4:14:10 PM
LYNN WHITMORE, Anchor Point, said Mr. Cain has been at Board of
Fisheries meetings for at least 30-some years and he cannot
imagine a better candidate. "He's about as fair a man as I've
ever seen sitting in that arena," he stated. He added that Mr.
Ruffner is a river scientist, which the board sorely needs. Both
candidates are fair, he said. He has seen prejudices on the
board, "and I look forward to watching these guys go through
that process, and I'm guessing they're going to be real fair
about it."
4:15:20 PM
WES HUMBYRD, Homer, said he has commercial fished in Cook Inlet
since 1966, "and I was all for Mr. Cain until he said … that he
thought the conservation corridor in Cook Inlet was a good
thing." He now does not want Mr. Cain confirmed, because that is
one of the worst things the Board of Fisheries has ever done,
and it put a lot of commercial fishermen out of business. Many
went bankrupt, he added, because they were not able to get to
where the sockeye salmon were, and almost 1 million fish went to
waste. He said neither the dipnetters nor anyone else could
catch them. Mr. Ruffner, on the other hand, needs to be
confirmed because he was dragged over the coals last year due to
politics. Mr. Humbyrd believes that he will be very fair.
4:16:48 PM
SENATOR STOLTZE said Mr. Ruffner also supports the corridor. He
asked Mr. Humbyrd if he should vote against him.
MR. HUMBYRD told Senator Stoltze that that is his own decision.
Mr. Ruffner has a lot of background in biology, and "I just want
somebody on that board that uses biological data and science to
make a decision." He said he is against the conservation
corridor "because we do not fish like Bristol Bay, Mr. Stoltze,
and everybody up there thinks we do." If people want them to
fish like that, then they should be allowed to fish the first
five miles of the Kenai River, he said, and that way they will
not be wasting millions and millions of dollars of revenue,
which would have been $120 million in 2014. He opined that the
conservation corridor was created to benefit the silver salmon
fishermen and the guides in the Mat-Su valley. When his fishery
had to let the fish go by, "you went ahead and gave all the
sport fishermen up there a new bag limit at the cost of the
commercial people, and we didn't get to fish anymore. We sat on
the beach." Last year was the worst year he has had in 49 years,
and he knows what he is doing, he concluded.
SENATOR STOLTZE said, "I'm sorry that we supported our
constituents."
SENATOR MICCICHE said he is not going to condemn folks that he
sees as credible board members "for single statements that are
identical to other folks that are applying." He said he needs to
choose good board members, and, based on Mr. Cain's testimony,
he will look at every issue fairly.
4:19:05 PM
RICHARD MCGAHAN, Nikiski, said he started fishing in 1955, and
he hopes Mr. Ruffner remembers his promise of putting Alaskans
first. Regarding Mr. Cain, he said, "We have got to quit
splitting this inlet up." In 2014, over-escapement was 81
percent in Cook Inlet, and that adds up to about $120 million
lost to fishermen. Alaska is talking about budgets, he said, and
things need to be straightened out. The Alaska Constitution
tells ADF&G to utilize the fish, and the governor has the right
to appoint the people to make sure that job is done, "so let's
keep it for Alaskans." If people read the mission statement in
the Board of Fisheries regulations, he said, they would
understand how the fisheries were supposed to be managed, which
is based on the federal and state constitutions. He said to
consider these [appointments] very carefully.
4:21:00 PM
WILLIAM PETERSON, Administrator, New Stuyahok Tribal Council,
New Stuyahok, said he has been a commercial fisherman in the
Bristol Bay region, and he asked if the Board of Fisheries has a
representative from Bristol Bay. He wished to ask the appointees
questions [and was told he could not], but he confirmed that he
supported Mr. Ruffner, but he was not sure about Mr. Cain.
4:23:43 PM
JIMMY HURLEY, Ekwok, said he has lived in Ekwok along the
Nushagak River for about 60 years, and he was hesitant to
support Mr. Ruffner for the commercial seat on the board,
because he lacks commercial fishing experience. There are people
in Bristol Bay who have fished all their lives, and the area
represents 50 percent of the fish in the world, so "I don't see
how we're getting left out in Bristol Bay." He said that awhile
back Nushagak River was number one for king salmon. He noted
that he sat on the Nushagak Advisory [Committee] when the
river's kings were in trouble, and it took five years for every
user group to agree on one thing: commercial, sport, and
subsistence users all had to limit their take.
MR. HURLEY stated that on the Kenai River, every user is cutting
each other's throats, and the resource will be depleted, which
is what happened over 20 years ago on the Nushagak, "but we
built this fishery," and the river is number one for king
salmon. People might not know what is at stake, "but we live on
the river and put our fish up," and this is why they fought the
Pebble mine. "We need representation on that Board of Fish, a
real commercial fisherman, not a one-two time fisherman," he
added. He said he picks more fish than anybody, and he is a guy
out of Ekwok, so the experience is there, but they need good
representation. If not, the entire fishery will go down the
drain, he stated. He recommended against confirming Mr. Cain and
Mr. Ruffner and asked for someone from Bristol Bay.
4:28:01 PM
GEORGE PIERCE, Kasilof, said the boards of fisheries and game
are stacked with friends and neighbors, and they are controlled
by fishing and hunting guides. "That's why the fish and game is
so messed up today," he stated. Nominees must be biologists or
scientists in the appropriate field, not friends, good-old-boys,
or nice guys. The state needs to take control of the fish and
game boards; legislators need to have control. He said Mr.
Ruffner is a good guy, but he is a geologist, not a biologist,
neither is Mr. Cain. "You can't keep confirming these people
that don't have any knowledge of fish or game," he opined. He
said Mr. Ruffner would be good for the position, but the fish
board is uncontrollable right now, so he urged the legislature
to put scientists on the board.
4:30:09 PM
CHAIR GIESSEL, finding no further comments, closed public
testimony. She stated that accordance with AS 39.050.080, the
Senate Resources Committee recommended that the names of Alan
Cain and Robert Ruffner be forwarded to the full legislature in
joint session for consideration. This does not reflect an intent
by any member to vote for or against the individuals during any
further sessions.
4:31:35 PM
The Senate Resources Standing Committee adjourned at 4:31 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|---|---|
| BOF-Resume-Al Cain.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |
| BOF-Resume-Robert Ruffner.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |
| BOF-Ruffner-Cain-Payton-Comments from SEAS.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |
| BOF-Ruffner-Comments from ATA.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |
| UFA Support for Ruffner Cain BOF 030816.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |
| BOF-Cain-Comments from ATA.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |
| BOF-Written Testimony-John McCombs.pdf |
SRES 3/9/2016 3:30:00 PM |
Board of Fisheries |