Legislature(2007 - 2008)BUTROVICH 205
02/07/2007 03:30 PM Senate RESOURCES
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| Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority Presentation | |
| Adjourn |
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
February 7, 2007
3:34 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Charlie Huggins, Chair
Senator Bert Stedman, Vice Chair
Senator Lyda Green
Senator Gary Stevens
Senator Lesil McGuire
Senator Bill Wielechowski
Senator Thomas Wagoner
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT
Senator Johnny Ellis
Senator Joe Thomas
Senator Fred Dyson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority (ANGDA) Overview -
Harold Heinze, CEO
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION
No previous action to consider
WITNESS REGISTER
HAROLD HEINZE, CEO
Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority (ANGDA)
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented ANGDA overview.
LORI BACKES
Alaska Gasline Port Authority (AGPA)
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented briefly on AGPA.
PAUL FUHS
Alaska Gasline Port Authority (AGPA)
Anchorage AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Commented on AGPA's MOU.
ACTION NARRATIVE
CHAIR CHARLIE HUGGINS called the Senate Resources Standing
Committee meeting to order at 3:34:45 PM. Present at the call to
order were Senators Wielechowski, Stevens, Green, McGuire and
Huggins.
^Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority Presentation
3:36:53 PM
SENATOR WAGONER joined the committee.
CHAIR HUGGINS announced the presentation from the Alaska Natural
Gas Development Authority.
HAROLD HEINZE, CEO, Alaska Natural Gas Development Authority
(ANGDA), said his purpose today was to cover the outline of
ANGDA's proposal and highlight some of its high points. He said
the Alaska Gas Market System (AGMS) is a proposal ANGDA put
together in response to a meeting with Governor Palin in which
she reminded him of what ANGDA's purpose was. His board
reflected on what it had and had not done for the last three
years and today's presentation is a result of that. It is
consistent with Governor Palin's stated principles for the
Alaska Gasline Inducement Act (AGIA), which she will introduce
in the legislature this year.
3:39:54 PM
MR. HEINZE said this proposal is a starting point and is
intended to draw participants into a study without commitments
in a transparent process; he said it would be adjusted once the
Governor's proposal is on the table.
3:41:39 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN joined the committee.
MR. HEINZE referenced the previous proposal that clearly
provided for a pipeline transiting Canada and said it is also
clear that the MacKenzie Delta pipeline is in trouble. He
suggested that maybe the three companies need greater
flexibility in expressing what they want to do.
3:44:41 PM
It also addresses Alaska's energy needs in a timely fashion.
Going to his slide of the proposed Alaska Gasline Market System,
he noted that the pipeline splits in Glennallen and goes to both
the Cook Inlet and Valdez areas. The starting point was actually
in Cook Inlet because that, along with Fairbanks and the Yukon
River, represent the Alaska citizens' gas needs and amounts to
around 200 to 250 mmcf/day (or .25 mmcf/day) - less than the 4.5
bcf/day that many people talk about. ANGDA wants to make sure
these gas needs are taken care of. If the state chose to take
it's one-eighth share of the known reserves at Prudhoe Bay,
which would amount to 3 tcf, and divide that by .25 bcf/day,
which works out to about a 30-year supply.
Unfortunately, Mr. Heinze said, .25 bcf/day is not a lot when
looking at the distances and the challenges involved here. It is
costly to come from the North Slope of Alaska to tidewater. On
spreading that cost over a small market, he said, "I'm not going
to tell you it can't be done; on the other hand, it is a
challenged decision."
MR. HEINZE said that ANGDA looked at how to make the project
work while taking the burden off the Alaskan consumers and still
meeting their energy needs. Thus they came up with the leg that
goes 110 south of Glennallen and delivers 1 bcf/day to Valdez
for the manufacture of LNG and the transport of that across to
different destinations.
3:48:07 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked why not just use a larger pipe and one line
to Valdez and not from Cook Inlet.
MR. HEINZE replied this is intended as a minimalist project.
Nobody has ever suggested smaller numbers; everyone has always
suggested bigger numbers. But he thought that is the way to
start this kind of a process. Second, he explained that while
Cook Inlet has several important ingredients, a fertilizer
manufacturing plant and an LNG manufacturing plant, nether one
of them is interested in being part of a project to bring gas
there. So he stuck with the electric and gas utilities. However,
if at some point in this process, one of the industrial users
came forward wanting to be part of the project, he would welcome
them.
The other issue, he said, is that Cook Inlet has an existing LNG
facility that was built there because that's where the gas was.
It has been operating for a long time in a marine environment
that is much more challenged than Valdez. There is also a limit
to how big a ship can be brought in because of water depth and
the presence of ice, which makes navigation in the Inlet more
difficult. People in the energy transport business want a place
like Valdez for a port because it is deep and has a large enough
space to accommodate the biggest of the big ships. This project
does not rely on the Cook Inlet LNG plant being in the game.
3:52:31 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked if there is a pipeline system in
place that would get the gas to Kenai. He also asked what the
export market looks like going to Asia - keeping the Nikiski
plant in mind.
MR. HEINZE replied that the proposal target is to bring a
pipeline into the Cook Inlet area and terminate it at the Beluga
power plant. The virtue of bringing the pipeline to that area is
that whatever gas isn't used can be put back into the ground and
to recharge the reservoir.
He said that Enstar owns a pipeline system to Kenai and he
envisions a tie-in to that, although he didn't know exactly how
that would work. He said that some pipelines cut from the north
side of Cook Inlet to the south where the Kenai LNG plant is,
but they aren't available now for that kind of a service. One
could look at either some sort of adapting those lines or laying
a whole new line.
Third, Mr. Heinze said the LNG plant in Kenai was built 35 years
ago and is extremely small. Current technology for such a plant
would be six or seven times bigger. The dock and storage
facilities might be used, but it can't be placed in the same
category as the type of facility he is talking about. A 1
bcf/day LNG plant is 7 million tons per annum and the Kenai LNG
plant runs at about 1 million tons per annum.
3:56:43 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN asked him to elaborate on the state's eighth
share of gas as a supply.
MR. HEINZE replied that this project represents about 40 percent
of the known Prudhoe Bay reserves (about 24 tcf of gas). His
design is based on 1.25 bcf/day. If you do that for 20 years,
that's 10 tcf of gas. The biggest project being discussed is 50
tcf, twice the known developed reserves.
He emphasized that this project is based upon 10 tcf, a very
modest reserve number. He said one way to get that volume is to
take the state's one-eighth share of along with another 7 tcf
from the three major producers at Prudhoe Bay in any
combination. Another way would be to take the state's 3 tcf and
the Pt. Thomson reserves, 6 tcf - 9 tcf. It's his belief that a
number of explorers who hold acreage and have defined prospects
will almost immediately drill as soon as some project really
starts to move forward. If they were to find something, this
project could be adjusted to use it. Mr. Heinze stated:
We visualize that at the LNG end that people who are
in the LNG business would actually build and operate
that plant, that this system would only get the gas to
Valdez and from there on, others would basically take
the responsibility in terms of a firm commitment
financially to move the gas. Having been said that
way, what this means is, somebody would have to sign
with them some sort of a sales contract. And it would
not be an unusual contract, but it would be a sales
contract and that would then allow them to have the
contractual equivalent of owning the reserves in the
ground. That would probably be very acceptable to some
of the bigger LNG companies - whether it be the BG
Group, Mitsubishi, Sempra - as a basis for them to
make very large financial commitments - because they
have the markets, they have other vessels to move it
and so on. It's their business.
Again, at this scale all the feedback we've gotten is
that that is a very plausible thing and again it
certainly is our intent in the study process moving
this forward that those participants will be very key
to understanding the LNG part of this. And how they
see it will determine whether you do that or not,
frankly.
4:01:42 PM
MR. HEINZE said he envisioned that more than a number of people
- producers, pipeline companies, LNG plant owners, shippers, and
experienced energy project investors - would be more than
willing to contribute some sort of in-kind expertise in a joint
study effort to move from a conceptual phase to enough
information that people could start deciding on a very simple
open season process. There is a lot of interest in this kind of
an energy project.
4:04:19 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked him to discuss where a propane plant would
be located and how complex the project would be.
MR. HEINZE replied that the answer is in the markets, but he
wanted to finish his list first of possible participants. Alaska
utilities, whether gas or electric, have things to contribute,
he said, and the only way for them to make those decisions is to
have good information and the way to get good information is to
participate in this kind of a process. He also listed the State
of Alaska and the U.S. government because they possess lots of
valuable expertise and information in doing this type of thing.
For instance, the United States Department of Energy is expert
in the utilization of CO2 for enhanced oil recovery, a highly
specialized area that may become of some importance in terms of
gas conditioning on the North Slope.
He said in his mind the first market is the utilities; the
second is the propane market. Propane can be trucked up the
highway from a variety of spots. People could develop those
kinds of trucking businesses. The Mat-Su Valley actually has
three people competing to deliver propane.
MR. HEINZE said that the North Slope gas is very rich in ethane,
propane and butane (NGLs); just the opposite of Cook Inlet. The
propane far exceeds what can be used in Alaska. Once it is
brought to tidewater, it can be moved via marine barge or in
cargo containers that is received every summer by every village
and town in Alaska.
You just slip in a container in there that is actually
a propane tank. Maybe slip in two or three if it's a
bigger community. And you take the empties back with
you and you bring them back next year filled. And it's
just like a trade-in thing on your barbeque grill
propane tank if you go down to the hardware store.
He said getting propane delivered to the 100 or so communities
in Yukon-Kuskokwim River system would be a little more
difficult, but he envisioned that a pipeline could have an off-
take where it crosses the river and a then the problem would
become distributing it up and down the river system. He said
that not much information exists about the cost and methods of
distributing the propane on the river, so he has proposed a
demonstration project for that.
4:10:39 PM
SENATOR STEVENS asked if taking propane out of gas is a simple
process.
MR. HEINZE replied that when each compressor station draws some
of the gas off for fuel, it is cooled so the propane drops out.
It's a very simple process and every compressor station will
have a small propane facility. The more challenging issues are
storage and distribution.
4:12:28 PM
SENATOR WAGONER asked him the difference in the btu value
between propane and natural gas.
MR. HEINZE replied that natural gas is methane; it has 1 carbon
molecule and 4 hydrogen molecules around it; ethane has 2
carbons, propane has 3 carbons and butane has 4 carbons.
Basically one molecule of propane has 2.7 times the energy
content of a methane molecule. The more propane molecules, the
more energy gets moved down the line. "You move molecules in a
pipeline, you don't move btus." Propane is a liquid and very
dense at very moderate temperatures and pressures. So it doesn't
require super chilling or high pressures. Other energies are
more volatile in terms of making them a liquid.
Inherent in the project is the ability to start shipping gas
from Prudhoe Bay without the conditioning plant being on line
and to Cook Inlet without the LNG facility in Valdez - as long
as they know it is coming. The Prudhoe Bay gas is so rich that
even with 12-percent CO2 content, it will still burn great in
stoves and turbines. He also envisioned making maximum use of
the TAPS right-of-way.
4:17:33 PM
He emphasized the importance of the joint-study process saying:
It's our feeling that while the project here is
important, the study process may be actually the more
important thing at this point. I should emphasize to
you that we're not looking for support of the project
at this point. Ultimately, that will flow out of the
people who want to build it, who want to be the
participants in it. What we are looking for is support
of the idea of moving forward with a number of people
in a sort of voluntary sort way - no commitments, no
exclusivity - other than that they will work in and
contribute towards the project definition,
understanding the project, defining it on an in-kind
basis. We've proposed here that the state put up the
$5 million of cash to fund what we think are the
studies. We suspect that the in-kind effort that this
could attract is [indisc.] probably valued in the
range of $5 million - $10 million if you could even go
out and buy the kind of expertise from these companies
we would be looking for.
MR. HEINZE explained that at the end of the joint study process
all the participants would have enough knowledge that they could
make an informed decision whether to go forward and whether they
were to foot the bill for the next level, which might be more in
the range of $50 million. He said this is in line with the
Governor's proposal. ANGDA would be the facilitator of getting
the project started. He thought certain participants would be
willing to put some people working on this almost full-time.
That's what it would take to kind of make it happen. A
lot of other people would be part time. The reality is
that the process would be very public, very
transparent and everybody could sort of see what was
going on at least on this project.
MR. HEINZE speculated that the Governor's legislation would
inspire some proposals, but that others would be needed - in
particular ones that focus on the Alaska market, because that is
an important ingredient from the state's point of view -
regardless. He speculated also that this project was small
enough to be doable, and that it would be cheap insurance that
something will happen.
4:22:10 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS said last year the legislature faced the issue
that there was no contract start date and asked how his "course
of action" would have more certainty.
MR. HEINZE replied:
This isn't a negotiation. This is people working
together that are potentially interested participants.
It's working together in a circumstance where
everybody has a lot to gain and nothing to lose.
Again, because there is no exclusivity to it, there
may be companies that choose the participate in the
study very actively and also undertake their own
proposals under whatever the Governor puts in front of
you. So, at worst all we have done is encourage more
action and anticipation on it.
Secondly, I think the result of the joint study is
going to be to see that this is not the kind of a
project where you need one person or one group of
people, but where you need a number of people
involved. This provides, then, at least a framework to
start to identify those people, for them to start to
work with each other and understand each other a
little better and again, develop some of that
background.
Also, because it's highly visible in a public sense -
who is there, what's happening. I think it aides
whatever other discussions have to take place with
whatever other parties under anything else. Our
intention is to proceed simultaneously with whatever
other efforts there are. We have no intention to
interfere with or in any way create problems for the
other issues. On the other hand, very frankly, if the
moment comes where the state decides that it is faced
with significant delay on some other alternative, then
it may want to look hard at this and see if it is
appropriate to move ahead. Having said that, I will
assure you we have analyzed and we've discussed a
little bit in the proposal here the sort of 'what
ifs.' What if you do this project and then other
things happen and none of them seem in our mind to
work out bad. They are all possibilities that seem
very manageable and, frankly, probably good from the
state's point of view. We think that's kind of our
take of how we contribute to the process moving
forward on it.
CHAIR HUGGINS summarized that his system can be viewed in two
major categories - "one that it's complimentary to a larger
system that you take gas off of and that given that there isn't
that larger system, you could have an autonomous system."
MR. HEINZE replied that the system he has proposed is a "minimal
autonomal system" and that there is an inherent frustration in
not doing anything.
4:27:14 PM
SENATOR MCGUIRE said lawmakers keep coming back to the point
that any project needs a gas supply and there must be a
willingness on behalf of the people who own the gas to
participate. She said that three major producers own the gas
supply and asked what would be their incentive to voluntarily
participate in this when their goal is to please their
shareholders not to help Alaska resolve its energy dilemma. What
if they have a competing proposal that would lead to their goal?
She has also found in working on homeland security issues that
it is difficult for people to work voluntarily because they
recognize the risk of giving up proprietary information.
4:29:20 PM
MR. HEINZE replied, "The visualization here is sort of two-fold"
and that companies commonly share information that is in their
common interest. People might want not want to make things
public, but wouldn't mind sharing it with other people because
it might lead to a better thing and the other people maybe
already know it. Second, part of the reason for the state to be
involved is to help guide studies that will generate certain
information in the public realm without them having to disclose
proporietary information. For instance, the state could hire a
contractor that would review their work and incorporate it in a
summary way without ever revealing proprietary information. This
is a common vehicle. He noted that later he would talk about the
Port Authority memorandum - one of the reasons for doing that is
so that he can keep a secret.
In response to her other question, he said the decision to
market gas has to be made separately by each of the three
leaseholders in the Prudhoe Bay unit. Each has to make separate
decisions on marketing and to do otherwise strikes to the heart
of their responsibilities to the state and to their shareholders
and, if done wrong, could represent a prima fascia anti-trust
violation. They have to find a balance in thinking through their
individual perspectives. It was clear in the last session that
the three producers worked with the legislature, but other
producers might be interested, as well.
4:34:41 PM
SENATOR WAGONER asked if a percentage of the gas is lost by
storing it or compressing it.
MR. HEINZE answered very small percentages are lost and the
state's bank account might be appreciating faster than the vault
that is leaking. However, the state might want to examine its
role in terms of interest rates and suggested it might absorb
the extra charges through the pipeline tariff. One of the
biggest objections to most projects that he has heard is the
long ramp up period they require. "This is just simply to say
not the case here."
4:37:10 PM
SENATOR WAGONER asked him how letting the gas liquids go out of
state would impact the state.
MR. HEINZE replied in a pipeline of the size he envisions they
would look at ethane numbers in tens of thousands of barrels a
day, propane numbers would be in the range of 5,000 to 10,000
barrels a day. Larger projects are huge numbers - approaching
100,000 barrels a day of ethane and 50,000 barrels a day of
propane. A petrochemical facility can be built on the basis of
50,000 barrels a day. So, this volume is two major petrochemical
facilities.
He said that NGLs are a large resource on the North Slope; it
has no place to go but into the gas pipeline. Because the
molecules are so valuable in a recovery conservation sense, some
emphasis has to be placed on finding a market for them. Once
they get outside a pipeline that gets a little trickier
especially with ethane. So you tend to build the plant that uses
the ethane right at the end of the pipeline.
Markets in the Mideast are tightly controlled and it's hard to
get in to them - places like Iran, Indonesia and Sakhalin. The
Russians confiscated half of Sakhalin's interest just recently.
"If you're faced with those choices, Alaska becomes a very
attractive place, frankly, and you're going to work really hard
to see if you can make something pencil out here."
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked him to compare his project with the
one last year in terms of cost, revenues to the state and Alaska
jobs. Second, if a larger gas line is agreed to, he asked what
ability his project had to be upgraded to accommodate it.
MR. HEINZE replied this is a smaller project, but if you choose
to make the LNG portion of this project bigger, that would lead
to three years of good jobs. You size the pipe because of the
people who made the commitments on the other end of it.
4:44:17 PM
SENATOR WIELECHOWSKI asked in terms of interchangeability, if
the state goes with a smaller line and then goes with a major
export line, how easy it is to upgrade.
MR. HEINZE replied:
If you had installed this system and you wanted to
bring a much larger reserve to market, you would build
a separate line and go all the way to Chicago. And
this lien would continue to operate; it would still be
a very good line. It would be very cost effective. It
would be meeting Alaska's needs and you'd ship all the
NGLs down of it and we could enjoy the benefits of a
petrochemical industry.
He said if the big gasline goes through, he would put his hand
over his drawing of the pipeline north of Delta Junction "and
all of a sudden we've got a wonderful workable project that goes
south from that point and ties off the big pipeline." He also
perceived that the Governor's AGIA legislation would place a lot
of weight on instate gas use.
4:46:20 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if his plan depends on whether the gas is
stranded or not.
MR. HEINZE replied no; nothing in his proposal depends on
legislation. It is a business-like approach. Organizations like
ANGDA, like the Wyoming Natural Gas Development Authority
(WNGDA), have been very effective in providing lines of credit
and other types of credit guarantees, aggregating supply, and
those kind of steps. He mentioned that he could use ANGDA's
bonding authority to do something like that.
CHAIR HUGGINS asked him how WNGDA was effective.
MR. HEINZE gave one example where Wyoming provided a $300
million line of credit, the de-bottle-necked their pipeline
system, got wells drilled and pipelines built - "They woke up a
few years later and the state of Wyoming was realizing a $.5
billion more revenue every year."
4:48:26 PM
MR. HEINZE said that recently the boards of the Alaska Gas Line
Port Authority (Port Authority) and ANGDA approved a memorandum
of understanding (MOU) between them. The intent is in no way to
restrict what gets done, but it provides for a degree of
cooperation that was not possible before the MOU. As two public
agencies, one their biggest problems is they can't keep a
secret. The MOU basically acknowledges that there will be times
when both authorities need to talk to each other and ask that it
be kept confidential.
The strongest motive he had for pursuing this MOU is that he
knows the Port Authority already has good and valuable work done
for them by Bechtel. Bechtel wasn't paid for the work, but it
owns it and has every right to third-party confidentiality
prohibitions. Under the MOU, he could sign a confidentiality
agreement, take a look at the work and use it without revealing
it, and save the state from having to pay more for it. The most
important thing is that both ANGDA and the Port Authority have
shared mission goals from the very beginning and they want to
continue working together.
4:51:12 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how he envisioned someone would become an
applicant in his system.
MR. HEINZE replied that he didn't know the details of what the
Governor will bring forward, but she has described a process
that involves the submission of a number of different proposals,
an evaluation of them, and then some sort of process that goes
to a next step.
4:52:46 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked how the state would get its money out of his
project - in-kind or in-value.
MR. HEINZE replied by asking the legislature to fund $5 million
to ANGDA.
4:54:44 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked if a producer would have to break ranks to
work with him.
MR. HEINZE supposed each company would have to look at its hole
card and decide what to do.
4:56:46 PM
CHAIR HUGGINS asked Lori Backes and Paul Fuhs, Alaska Gasline
Port Authority (AGPA), to comment on the MOU for the committee.
PAUL FUHS, AGPA, reasoned that both authorities are working
together at the closest level and there is no sense in
duplicating efforts. He said it is the will of the people and
they have a responsibility to the people to do what they were
asked to do.
He said it's important to just get started. After an open season
is held and other people come in is when a decision has to be
made. Senator McGuire is correct that an initial gas supply is
needed, but no one knows how Pt. Thomson will play out. The
royalty gas is there. "If we said to the producers we want our
royalty gas because we want to bring that gas to our own people
and they said no, how would that make you feel?"
4:59:34 PM
SENATOR WAGONER asked if the state doesn't have a line going
through Canada and:
Would our gas liquids be applicable to Alberta's large
demand for pollutants and could we sell them on a
competitive basis and kind of export and import them
from here to Prince Rupert and then over by pipeline?
MR. HEINZE replied if Canada is still interested in the propane
for instance, it could be transportable, but the price would
have to be competitive with some other high-value markets - with
China for instance. Ethane would be much more difficult
logistically, because of its volatility. He said the only way
you know you get full value is to have both an alternative and
the control to move it between those alternatives. "At that
moment you will get the best price for that commodity."
SENATOR WAGONER said as a follow-up on gas liquids, it's
estimated that an 80,000 barrel ethane plant would employ
between 600 - 900 people. That's a lot more jobs for Alaskans
than the operation of a pipeline system. That's why he wants to
encourage instate processing of natural gas liquids.
MR. HEINZE added that the point to remember with petro-chemicals
is that it's not only the manufacturing industrial complex that
just turns out feedstock for all the industries; The next level
of manufacturing where a whole string of activities can be set
up is where more value comes in.
SENATOR MCGUIRE remembered when about five years ago Netricity
came to Alaska interested in warehousing big data processing
plants and agreed that innovations like that need to be
encourage by having a gas supply.
MR. HEINZE remembered also that Netricity wanted to be on the
North Slope because it was cold and more energy is expended
cooling electronics than running them. He added that Alaska has
very limited plastics manufacturing of extremely high value
products and encouraging that kind of entrepreneurship would be
interesting.
SENATOR MCGUIRE remembered that one of the barriers was getting
a rate set for the gas.
5:05:42 PM
SENATOR STEDMAN asked how a company can go about not getting
blocked out in an open season when its industry isn't in place
yet. He asked if he was still struggling with that one.
MR. HEINZE replied that besides the small size of the Alaskan
market, it is an undeveloped market as well. For an example,
Fairbanks Natural Gas uses a very minor amount of trucked LNG.
Obviously, once gas is coming through their community, the
system will expand to maybe 100 times bigger that it is today.
Reserving space for them in the future is why he wants consumer
participants to be involved. He noted that ANGDA is working with
the Alaska Power Association, which includes most of the
electric utilities in the state, on an education process on how
to participate in an open season.
CHAIR HUGGINS thanked Mr. Heinze for his work. There being no
further business to come before the committee, he adjourned the
meeting at 5:08:34 PM.
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