Legislature(2003 - 2004)
05/12/2003 03:35 PM Senate RES
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ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE
SENATE RESOURCES STANDING COMMITTEE
May 12, 2003
3:35 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENTG
Senator Scott Ogan, Chair
Senator Thomas Wagoner, Vice Chair
Senator Fred Dyson
Senator Ralph Seekins
Senator Ben Stevens
Senator Kim Elton
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
All members present
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
APPOINTMENT OF MR. JOHN JENSEN to the ALASKA BOARD OF FISHERIES
CONFIRMATION ADVANCED
HOUSE BILL NO. 226
"An Act relating to the sale, offer for sale, representation,
and labeling of food or other agricultural products as organic,
and to the state organic certification program; and providing
for an effective date."
MOVED OUT OF COMMITTEE
PREVIOUS ACTION
HB 226 - No previous action to record.
WITNESS REGISTER
Mr. John E. Jensen
Petersburg, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions regarding his Board
appointment
Ms. Barbara Bittney
Staff to Representative Stoltze
Alaska State Capitol
Juneau, AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Presented HB 226 for the sponsor
Mr. Mark Rempel
Palmer, AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 226
Mr. River Bean
President, Alaska Organic Association
No address provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 226
Mr. Shane Herr
No address provided
POSITION STATEMENT: Supports HB 226
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 03-46, SIDE A
CONFIRMATION: BOARD OF FISHERIES
CHAIR SCOTT OGAN called the Senate Resources Standing Committee
meeting to order at 3:35 p.m. All members were present except
Senator Ben Stevens. Chair Ogan announced the committee would
first take up the confirmation of John Jensen to the Board of
Fisheries. He asked Mr. Jensen to tell members why he wants to
serve on the board.
MR. JOHN E. JENSEN told members he is a third generation Alaskan
from Petersburg. He has been interested in the work of the Board
of Fisheries and has hoped to serve on it at some time. He has
diverse experience in both commercial and sport fisheries. His
goal is to create sustainable, viable fisheries based on sound
management practices for all Alaskan user groups.
CHAIR OGAN asked Mr. Jensen his opinion of the recent ruling by
the federal subsistence board that allows subsistence fishermen
to catch 20 halibut per day.
MR. JENSEN said he likes the idea of being able to go out and
get a few halibut but thinks 20 per day is excessive.
CHAIR OGAN said the committee talked to another appointee of the
board about the fact that now that the subsistence fishery for
rainbow trout is allowed, there should be better communication
between the federal and state boards to make sure the resources
are not compromised. He said the federal board is not required
to manage on a sustained yield basis like the state board is. He
asked Mr. Jensen to comment.
MR. JENSEN said he is disappointed to hear that the [federal
board] made that decision. He said the state board just reviewed
a very comprehensive trout plan at an Anchorage meeting.
SENATOR WAGONER commented that Mr. Jensen's resume speaks for
itself and he believes Mr. Jensen will be a very good board
member.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she received a comment from a resident of
the Interior who said no one on the board has any Yukon River
experience and residents are concerned that individual members
on the board without that experience might not have knowledge of
inland fisheries. She asked Mr. Jensen to respond.
MR. JENSEN said he does not have any inland fishing experience
and realizes there are problems associated with that fishery. He
said he believes that issue is scheduled to come up for board
review this fall. Members are trying to review the details of
those problems right now.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she appreciates his honesty and hopes that
he carefully reviews the data and concerns expressed from
residents of the Yukon-Kuskokwim area. She then asked Mr. Jensen
what he believes the board's role is in carrying out the state's
subsistence priority and whether he supports a constitutional
amendment for a rural subsistence priority.
MR. JENSEN said, regarding the constitutional amendment, he
would support putting the question before the voters. In regard
to the board's role, he said the board should allow subsistence
for anyone who needs it as long as the resource is viable.
SENATOR SEEKINS asked what criteria were used in making the
decision to reverse the Chitina dipnet fishery designation and
whether he agreed with that decision.
MR. JENSEN said that decision was primarily based on criteria 8,
pattern of use, and the new information that was not available
in 2000.
SENATOR SEEKINS asked Mr. Jensen to describe some of the new
information he used to make his decision.
MR. JENSEN said two elements were long-term consistent patterns
of use and criteria 6, which pertains to passing knowledge of
fishing and hunting practices from generation to generation. He
noted the survey showed that many people were either self-taught
or taught by friends.
SENATOR SEEKINS asked Mr. Jensen if he looked at the users and
determined they did not fit within his definition of what a true
subsistence user is.
MR. JENSEN replied, "No, not really. It was more in the - with
the definition of use, individual habit or customary usage and
privilege of using something. It wasn't the users. I didn't
think it was the users."
SENATOR SEEKINS commented that most people eat fish.
MR. JENSEN said he does not believe many fishermen use the fish
in the customary and traditional way, as in "substantial,
economic, cultural, social, and I'm sure they use the
nutritional elements...."
SENATOR SEEKINS asked if he went to Chitina for the first time
after hearing that it was a place to get fish to feed his
family, and he used the customary and traditional method of
catching fish, although no one taught him how, whether he would
be considered different from a fourth generation user.
MR. JENSEN said possibly, based on the definition of long-term
use.
SENATOR WAGONER said at one time the board held hearings
throughout Alaska. He fishes in Cook Inlet and has found the
board has basically refused to hold a meeting in Cook Inlet for
a number of years. He asked Mr. Jensen if he is aware of any
good reason to not hold a hearing in Cook Inlet when the board
is reviewing Upper and Lower Cook Inlet issues.
MR. JENSEN said he cannot think of any good reasons.
CHAIR OGAN said a lot of his constituents feel the board has
been heavily slanted toward the commercial fisheries. He pointed
out that Cook Inlet is a mixed stock intercept fishery. He
maintained that when a large amount of fish return and the board
is managing for the Kenai River, the board puts a gauntlet up in
the Inlet and chokes off the fish. ADF&G has testified in the
past that when that type of a situation occurs, the Upper Cook
Inlet suffers because the fisheries are not managed for
escapement in the Upper Inlet. He asked Mr. Jensen what
assurances he can give that upriver fishing opportunities in his
area and the Yukon will be provided so that the fisheries are
managed on a sustained yield basis and Alaskans can feed their
families.
MR. JENSEN said he will do his best to make sure everyone gets
their share of the fish. He said he does not want to see anyone
get slighted.
CHAIR OGAN said there is a perception that commercial fishermen
were slighted by the last board. He added that a lot of people
living at the end of the fish runs believe that now the pendulum
has swung too far in the other direction.
MR. JENSEN said he was not aware of that and will do his best to
make the best-educated decisions for everyone.
SENATOR WAGONER said he is a drift fisherman in Cook Inlet and
has averaged less than 5 days fishing the full Inlet for the
last seven years. He said there is not a lot of pressure being
put on the stocks that go into the Upper Inlet by the Kenai
fleet.
CHAIR OGAN commented that is where the conflict lies. He noted
when he first came to the legislature, the Kenai king salmon
fishery in the Chesina River was closed to the detriment of some
of the fishermen in Cook Inlet. The king and silver salmon
fisheries have been really good in the northern Inlet. There's a
grave concern in his district that the pendulum will swing back
and his district "will be on the short end of the stick." His
district is filled with people with lodges and businesses that
depend upon those sport caught fish and their use needs to be
balanced. He said, in his opinion, fish on a person's dinner
table takes priority over a fish caught for commercial use
regardless of whether it was caught under a subsistence,
personal use, or sport designation. He asked for reassurance
that a commercially weighted board will not compromise his and
Senator Lincoln's districts.
MR. JENSEN said he will do his best to make just decisions.
SENATOR ELTON commented that Mr. Jensen is the first nominee who
has fished everywhere in Alaska with many gear types and for
many types of fish. He said it is unfortunate to view a nominee
from the commercial versus sport perspective. He said he looks
forward to working with Mr. Jensen and is glad that he wants to
serve on the board.
CHAIR OGAN noted that Senator Ben Stevens joined the committee.
He agreed Mr. Jensen probably has the broadest experience of the
nominees and will serve the board well.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she is pleased to learn that Mr. Jensen is
a long-term resident and asked him why he wants to serve on the
board.
MR. JENSEN said he was born and raised in Alaska and is
interested in the health of the fishing stocks in the state,
both sport and commercial. He said he wants to do what he can to
help the fisheries.
SENATOR DYSON moved to forward Mr. Jensen's name to the full
Senate for a vote. There being no objection, the motion carried.
CHAIR OGAN announced an at-ease.
HB 226-ORGANIC FOOD
MS. BARBARA BITTNEY, staff to Representative Bill Stoltze,
sponsor, explained that HB 226 simply adopts the federal
definition of "organic." Since the federal government changed
the definition and standards for "organic," produce can no
longer be certified as organic within the State of Alaska
without this legislation. Organic producers must go to Oregon,
Washington, and other states for certification. This legislation
will create a state certification program within Alaska.
Inspectors will fly to Alaska but Alaskans who are familiar with
local agriculture can certify that produce is organic. Last
year, Representative Harris introduced this same legislation [HB
432] but it was not enacted before the end of the session.
MS. BITTNEY told members when the federal definition of
"organic" was enacted the certification cost was increased. That
increase from $500 to between $1500 and $3000 was significant
for smaller producers. Many organic farmers sell to farmers
markets; it is not a high volume industry. Anyone who sells
$5000 or more of organic produce must be certified. She
clarified that the House Finance Committee zeroed out the fiscal
note and plans to fund the program with program receipts.
SENATOR ELTON said the original fiscal note had a cost of
$37,000 per year. He asked the number of organic farmers in
Alaska who could cover that cost.
MS. BITTNEY could not give a number but said there are three
farmers markets in Anchorage, one in Eagle River, one in
Fairbanks, one in Homer, one in Soldotna, and Delta and
Talkeetna plan to start farmers markets. In addition, there are
some very large agricultural farms in her area. She said the
number is fairly significant.
SENATOR ELTON asked if this will be a cheaper alternative than
flying an inspector to Alaska.
MS. BITTNEY said her hope is that by having a state
certification program, Alaska will eventually have in-state
inspection, which will significantly reduce the cost.
CHAIR OGAN stated:
I'd just like to say, you know, my district - in fact
in my neighborhood we have one of the best organic
farmers - Larry DeVilbiss. I literally - I drank more
carrot juice after recovering from my heart attack
last year and I can tell you what - that stuff is
good. I know it sounds disgusting but the Mat Valley
carrots are the sweetest carrots in the world. I mean
they're really, really good and you throw a little
apple in there and it's full of calcium and really
good stuff. I attribute a lot of my good health today
due to a vigorous organic carrot program. In fact I'm
going back on it when I get home. I miss them. That's
weird for me - you're talking a meat and potatoes guy
- anyway....
SENATOR SEEKINS said he is very much in support of this bill
because he produces organic fertilizer from his herd of horses.
SENATOR LINCOLN noted the federal regulations now recognize wild
salmon as organic and asked Ms. Bittney if that interacts with
HB 226.
MS. BITTNEY said HB 226 strictly applies to agricultural
products. Meats are dealt with in a different section of statute
but that is something that could be explored.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought Ms. Bittney said HB 226
pertains to more than agricultural products.
MS. BITTNEY said she was referring to herbs and essential oils
from lavender, for example.
CHAIR OGAN recognized the presence of Representative Stoltze. He
then noted that Ms. Bittney said a farmer must have
certification to sell over a certain amount of produce but no
amount is included in the bill.
MS. BITTNEY said the amount is listed in the federal guidelines,
which require anyone selling under $5,000 per year in organic
products to meet the standard; anyone selling $5,000 or more
must have certification. If a state official went on-site and
found a farmer did not have certification, that farmer could be
fined. She clarified the limit set on the fines is up to
$10,000. The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) would set the
actual fine amounts in regulation.
SENATOR ELTON asked if DNR would be required to do enforcement
in Seattle if produce was shipped from Alaska to Seattle.
MS. BITTNEY said when a farm is certified, an inspector reviews
the entire operation. Right now, inspectors often look at the
end product but it is impossible to determine if it meets the
federal guidelines. According to the U.S. Code, an organic
farmer will have to keep three-years' worth of documentation on
how the soil was amended and the soil would be subject to
testing. The Code contains a long list of sprays and other
products that can and cannot be used.
SENATOR ELTON asked if anything in HB 226 will require DNR to
enforce the labeling requirements outside of Alaska.
MS. BITTNEY said she would have to get an answer to that
question.
SENATOR DYSON said he is leery about creating more government.
CHAIR OGAN took public testimony.
MR. MARK REMPEL, an organic farmer from Palmer, stated support
for HB 226. He said he was disappointed that the same bill did
not pass last year because he was forced to go outside of Alaska
to get his certification.
MR. RIVER BEAN, President of the Alaska Organic Association,
told members that up until the fall of last year, his
organization could certify organic growers. However, that can no
longer be done under the new federal rule. He asked the
legislature to support HB 226 because it will allow the organic
farmers in Alaska to get their produce certified by the State of
Alaska rather than by another state. Also of concern is that
many farmers in the state are unaware of the serious
consequences of using the word "organic" with their produce.
Farmers who are mislabeling their produce could be fined up to
$10,000 if federal enforcement were to occur. That kind of a
fine would break most of those farms. He believes those farms
are selling more than $5,000 worth of produce and would have to
go out-of-state for certification. He said last year he paid
$350 to have his farm certified as organic; this year the cost
to get certified by Washington State would be more than $2,000,
which is unaffordable. He said his association would like to see
an agricultural inspector in Alaska, which could be an outcome
of HB 226.
SENATOR WAGONER asked how many commercial organic farmers work
in Alaska.
MR. BEAN said that four were certified last year. He believes
there are about 40 smaller scale organic farmers.
MR. SHANE HERR, a third generation carrot farmer, said he sees
HB 226 as a necessary evil for economic development.
CHAIR OGAN said that many people have the perception that
farming is not a viable industry in Alaska but that is not true
in his district.
TAPE 03-46, SIDE B
CHAIR OGAN said that farmers, like fishermen, are free market
risk takers, which he has a lot of respect for. He then moved HB
226 from committee with its zero fiscal note from the House
Finance Committee.
SENATOR SEEKINS objected.
SENATOR DYSON said he is very concerned that the House has
chosen to not fine parents whose children burn down schools and
slash tires yet this House bill fines the poor farmers $10,000.
CHAIR OGAN called Senator Dyson's comments out of order.
SENATOR DYSON stated objection to the motion.
SENATOR LINCOLN stated objection to the motion because the
committee had not heard testimony from farmers in the Delta
area.
A roll call vote was taken. The motion to pass HB 226 from
committee failed with Senators Stevens, Dyson, Seekins, Elton
and Lincoln opposed, and Chair Ogan in favor, who then moved to
reconsider the vote. All members then voted in favor, therefore
the motion to move HB 226 from committee passed unanimously.
SENATOR SEEKINS asked that the record show that Representative
Stoltze had turned three shades of red.
CHAIR OGAN adjourned the meeting at 4:28 p.m.
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